If the law of entropy is universally really correct, then it means that at the beginning of big bang is is very very ordered compared to now. But, look at the sky, galaxies, stars and complex life form. If there is no order in the galaxies, if there is no oder in the biochemmistry of your body, there will be no life. It seems that intelligence is required to make something ordered.
Life in itself is anti-entropy.
volcomstone
Pi has a pattern, but it doesnt align with our base-10 number system.
http://www.math2.org/math/constants/pi.htm
Volcomstone, if you want to put your mind at rest, I highly recommend that you research the work of "Ilya Prigogine".
Dont worry, the entire universe is not headed for its inevitable chaotic destruction[;)]
Read on:
http://www.edgenews.com/issues/2003/07/harris.html
http://www.mountainman.com.au/chaos_02.htm
The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy (the disorder) of an isolated system can only increase. According to Quantum-Metaphysics, the physical universe is not an isolated system but a limited aspect of an unlimited multi-dimensional reality. Therefore, the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to the physical universe and we don't need to worry about being overtaken by entropy.
Quantum-Metaphysics and many channeled messengers tell us also that we create our own reality through the nature of our mindset. We'll experience chaos if our mindset is chaotic. Therefore, the trick is to focus our minds on harmony, on peace and unconditional love. It is Christ's message in a nutshell.
The second law of thermodynamics is only an observation, not a proof.
Using scientists' assumption that the physical universe is a closed system, I give a counterexample to that "law" that they have conveniently ignored: Most mass tends to form similar order. It forms molecules.
I'm not a physicist, and I'm not a psychic although I've had a great interest in both areas and I've experienced a good bit of both. No one, right now, knows the truth to anything. All we have is interpretations. Einstein's theories will be, and some have been, disproven. In no way has human knowledge followed any current or past scientific principle. Hawking's string theory, however interesting it may be, can't be tested today due to physical constraints.
I believe that Beavis is absolutely correct in saying that the 2nd law of thermo-dynamics is simply an observation, and even further: it is an interpretation. There is simply no proof that systems tend to fall to disorder. Who's to say that a compressed gas released into a room is not simply following it's design to completely fill the room and disperse it's atoms as efficiently as possible? Isn't this the perfect, and most basic example of increasing entropy within a system?
Maybe, just as in the case with Mr. Hawking, we just haven't found the most practical interpretation.
Kozzi
"It seems that intelligence is required to make something ordered."
Which is why conventional science supports Christianity, if you care to belive in conventional science. So what i can't undersand is why they have a "Big Bang" theory or theory of evolution if they're contradicting themselves.
"Therefore, the trick is to focus our minds on harmony, on peace and unconditional love. It is Christ's message in a nutshell."
I don't remember Chist saying any of those things. It's not that I don't repect peace and unconditional love, but I don't think Christ promoted those ideas exclusively.
Every law in the universe leads, ultimatly, in the direction of balance. Heats moves to distribute itself evenly throught the entire universe, and mass tends to come together. The problem is, Entrophy is not chaos. Entrophy is the ability of a system to be changed without a substatial change in the overall consistensy within the system. So, to use the classic "messy room" example, if you moved an object in a messy room, or a cleaned room, in which system would the change be more aparent. The textbook answer is, of coarse the messy one, but this ignores chaos theory's (chaos theory: a theory which states that all "chaotic" actions are actualy extreamly complex reactions, which embodies what I think volcomstone was tring to say in the last paragraph of his original post), assertion that the mess or "high entrophy" room is realy the result of complex patterns of distribution, not actual chaos, so if you were to analyse the behaveour patterns of the person who uses said messy room, it should be just as apparent when an object is moved as in the "low entropy" clean room. The only difference is that in the case of the clean room, the method of distribution is known to the observer, because the clean room corrosponds to an ordered method of organization, more readily recognised by the human brain then the behavour pattern organization of the messy room. So the only real issue of the universe's constant flow of events, is that forces tend to because less and less usable. This is because the "usablity" of a force depends on it's potential energy, and all potential energy derives from an object defieing a law that can potentialy act upon it. So you see, once everything conforms to all the laws that could possible act upon it, the potential energy for the universe will be zero, and everything must come to rest.
This means, however, that potential energy can be revived by a change in the laws that govern the system, which would explain the entierer unverse's uncany ablity to seamingly derive from nothing.
After writing these things down, I am reminded of an occurence of this exact nature (changing of laws) as the basis of a Science Fiction book by Isaac Asimov, titled The Gods Themselves
fundamental mathematics (I mean very very basic)[:D],
the definition of a rational number: any number that could be express in n/m, such that n,m is an arbitrary natural number. the fact that there is no two numbers n,m in N, such that n/m=pi makes pi irrational, wether you like it or not. In fact pi is a trancendental number, a number which is not the root of any polynomial equation with integer coefficients.
ever see a fractal before? they're cool
My icon is a fracticle of my own finding.
volcomstone: I absolutly hate that physicists scientists. chemists etc all say that the universe is running down, and eventually will turn to a cold chaotic bunch of stupid entropy
They might be right. I dont know. But they see from a linear perspective. They are only looking forward in the time dimension. If you look backwards, you would see the opposite of what they say. If you look in the direction of sideways time (astral), you'll see things the scientists dont know exist, and havent put into their equations, so their opinions about the whole universe are crap.
They're like somebody who is driving down a hill (the road goes as far as they can see) and concludes that all roads must be lower than their car is now.
Trans2222, why do you say (Jan.19) that Christs's teachings were not focused on harmony, peace, and unconditional love?
I didn't say Christ's teachings wern't focused on harmony, peace and uncondidtional love. I said his "message in a nutshell" was not "to focus our minds on harmony, peace, and unconditional love." I'm sure Christ isn't against any of those things, but his teachings didn't, primarily focus on them.
Much of what Christ did was directly in opposition to the thinking of the time. The Pharisees controlled all spiritul life in isreal, but Christ claimed that their ways were wrong. The Pharisees made a monopoly of the temple, discluding anyone they jugged as "unclean" from temple worship. They created books explaing hunderates the "implied" laws in the ten commandments, and a book including thousands of ways these laws could be broken. For example, the Pharisees claimed that spitting into the dust on the sabbath was a sin, because moving the dirt in this way could be seen as plowing. Plowing was work, and working on the sabbath was disrespectful to the holy day. Christ, however came into a synagogue and, against the pharisees' teachings, healed a cripple there on the sabbath. The Pharisees there saw him, and comfronted him. "And they asked him, Is it lawful or allowable to cure people on the Sabbath days? - that they might accuse Him. But He said to them, What man is there among you, if he has only one sheep and it falls into a pit or ditch on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? How much better and of more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful and allowable to do good on the Sabbath days." (Mathew 12, 10b - 12) Christ was always teaching against the Pharisees' tyranical rule over all aspects of Jewish life, and the Parisees hated him for it. In almost all he did, he caused an upheaval in the Jewish culture. Considaring this, how can anyone claim that all of his teachings were based on finding harmony, peace, and unconditional love? He supported these ideas, but did not exclusivly promote them.
By "nutshell" I meant the essence of Jesus' teachings. He himself defined this essence when he said: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind," and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:34-40).
Don't the examples in your post, Trans2222, demonstrate how Jesus condemned any behavior that violated harmony, peace, and love? I am sure that his message was to focus our minds on these aspects of life because they are God's prime aspects - and how we think so we become. God is the innermost core in each of us and as we become more like Him, so we become true to ourselves. This removes the inner conflicts that we are grappling with in our world, and this is how we can "Awaken" to true reality, which some call 'heaven'.
I often times ponder about some of the ideas of Douglas Adams. If you haven't heard of him, he's not a physicist, far from it, he's a comedy writer. A lot of his plot in the unaptly named trilogy, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe, was improbability, or basically chaos to the extent of order.
Its like that theory that if you locked an infinite number of monkies with an equal number of typewriters, eventually one would write Shakespear. Basically, at the level of infinite chaos is so great, the disorder is so random that it creates order.
So perhaps we WILL end up dissolving in entropic soup, but then a whole new universe forms from it. I won't be around then so it doesn't bother me that much.
quote:
Its like that theory that if you locked an infinite number of monkies with an equal number of typewriters, eventually one would write Shakespear. Basically, at the level of infinite chaos is so great, the disorder is so random that it creates order.
exactly dood, chaos is the mother of order
Actually a new theory of the universe that says that it's forever expanding. But when it reaches near the net density of zero, another dimensional plane crashes into ours and starts another big bang. Thats pretty much the most compressed version i can come up with.
~ivan
It's fun discussing this, but it doesn't really matter, we will be dead and our sun will have burned out by the time this really happens, if it even does.
quote:
sun will have burned out by the time this really happens, if it even does.
But don't you understand !? its happened infinite times over already!
its also NOT happened Infinite times over.
Oh and BTW I plan to see it all again.
I absolutly hate that physicists scientists. chemists etc all say that the universe is running down, and eventually will turn to a cold chaotic bunch of stupid entropy, I hate the "fact" that everything is inclined to chaos, or "degredades" to lower energy forms
with that said, Infinite chaos has infinite order, I believe its impossible for something to be completely "irrational" like pi for instance, they say there is no pattern that it is completely irrational, or chaotic,
I dissagree, i don't know why i just do,
I believe in the power of infinite, subsets of infinite are still infinite, half of infinite is still infinite
1,2,3,4,5,6,7 .... and so on is infinite
2,4,6,8,10 is infinite also, but is only half the numbers of the first, the prime numbers too
so with infinite chaos, you must have infinite order,
anyone else see where im going? do you guys think there is any validity to my argument, does anyone else care that every time the snow melts we are becoming more chaotic? (according to entropy/enthalpy laws, thermodynamics)
but wait, when the snow melts, doesn't the melt water form nice ,predictable streams and patterns, don't those streams also help seperate and stratify sand/rocks other materials?
they say energy is never created nor destroyed, i think that for patterns and chaos, i think pattern is translated into another pattern, but science only sees the chaos[8]