Expanding Universe/Friedmann

[beavis]

Whats outside the balloon? Astral. But that could be some other dimension. The dimension of balloon size (distance from the center) could be time, with the center being the big bang.

[Nagual]

personaly, I still can't figure out an infinite universe expanding...  Infinity by itself is already difficult to imagine; but an expanding one is even more...

[Lighthouse]

perhaps it is finite... in a way.  If you were an ant and walking on the surface of a balloon, you could travel infinitely far... in circles.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

Whats outside the balloon? Astral. But that could be some other dimension. The dimension of balloon size (distance from the center) could be time, with the center being the big bang.

So are you suggesting that with the occurrence of the big bang, that the burst sent out all matter at an equal velocity  in order to create a seemingly 2 dimensional surface (like the surface of a balloon?)  The outer layer of the earths surface is often displayed in a 2 dimensional format... called maps.  Yet, a satellite or rocket can move perpendicular to the earths surface.  

I was under the impression that in space, one could move omnidirectionally, like the light emitted from a light bulb.  

It'n not so much the outside of the balloon that baffles me but that there is nothing on the inside... or more simply put, to quote one of mt friends favorite quotes;

"The Big Bang happens, is happening, and will happen."
--Itzhak Bentov, Stalking the Wild Pendulum.

--Lighthouse

[Logic]

what is meant by an infinite universe expanding, is that the physical matter and energy in this universe is expanding outwards in every direction away from the center, whilst the universe itself contains infinite space in every direction.

As for ourside of the balloon, its not like the physical dimensions just stop when you get far enough and you hit a wall or something, astral itself is on a seperate dimension aside from the 3rd dimension (physical) and fourth (time), for that matter.

[beavis]

Lighthouse So are you suggesting that with the occurrence of the big bang, that the burst sent out all matter at an equal velocity in order to create a seemingly 2 dimensional surface (like the surface of a balloon?)

Its a theory. I dont know if its true. It wasnt all at the same velocity. Its not a perfect sphere.

I was under the impression that in space, one could move omnidirectionally, like the light emitted from a light bulb.

The balloon lacks 1 of our dimensions. Its only an analogy.

[volcomstone]

lighthouse im not entirely sure what your question is but ill try to answer it but first  

quote:What they found when testing this equipment was that in every direction, no matter what time of the year or the angle to the horizon line, the static was measured to be the same. This static was the static of the universe

while this may have been true in 1965, the static measured today, or formally known as the cosmic background radiation, it has been proven NOT to be even, there are areas of higher concentrations and wavelenghts than others,

basically you're talking about event horizons, essentially, the end of the universe is forever moving, at the speed of light, that is known as the event horizon.

the realm of physics cannot predict what happens on the otherside of the event horizon, it is probally a quantum state where the laws of physics have yet to be defined until the event horizon reaches it,

in fact you can't actually assume that the universe is a bubble, there really is no "outside", because that would imply that something existed before the bigbang, an that goes against our understanding


some theorys are that the universe isn't actually infinite, its finite, but wrapped around itself like a donut,

but our universe might just be on a plane, of a superstructure, existing in superior dimensions,

just like a square on a cube, our universe might be a finite slice, in an infinite stack of planes

you can contemplate "geometric stacks" or quantized levels of universes that all exist within the same space, but on superior dimensions, infact, another universe might be just two inches to the left, or a second in the future



----this is my theory---

The big bang was essentially a distortion in the "oneness" basically everything existed as oblivion or infinite potential, the big bang comes along and distorts it , disordering causing the oneness to seperate into different patterns,

so you could say that on the other side of the bubble is a "perfect" state of being, while on the inside is a distorted chaotic pattern or "imperfect"

I think everything before the big bang existed as a perfect harmonic vibration, the big bang, sorta threw out the harmony, and seperate vibrations emerged, the equilibrium was shattered

[Lighthouse]

Volcomstone,

Thank you.

Lighthouse

[Logic]

quote:while this may have been true in 1965, the static measured today, or formally known as the cosmic background radiation, it has been proven NOT to be even, there are areas of higher concentrations and wavelenghts than others,

Your right. If the universe was balanced after the big bang, nothing would exist.

quote:basically you're talking about event horizons, essentially, the end of the universe is forever moving, at the speed of light, that is known as the event horizon.

some theorys are that the universe isn't actually infinite, its finite, but wrapped around itself like a donut,

How can a universe expanding at the speed of light be finite, it itself would require infinite mass to maintain its velocity.

Very interesting theory. However, it defies the laws of relativity as well as physics.

[volcomstone]

uh i guess i didn't mean it that way, the idea on event horizons is a different thought alltogether than the "wrapped up" universe theory

essentially if the universe was finite, a light particle could travel for an infinite amount of time as long as there was a gravitational distortion that would divert its trajectory, like a giant black hole

I think some light particles are probally forever stuck in a circlular orbit around such gravitational distortions, there is a special distance from any black hole that will cause such an occurance
say theoretically, you could build a ring around a black hole,

there would be three different effects, that different distances from the black hole would have on your perception of light,

one such distance would cause the "ring" around the black hole to be interpreted as a straight path, simply because the light particles would travel in a circular orbit around the black hole

pretty messed up stuff, when is a straight line not a straight line?
when its a curved space time!

[beavis]

volcom I think some light particles are probally forever stuck in a circlular orbit around such gravitational distortions, there is a special distance from any black hole that will cause such an occurance say theoretically, you could build a ring around a black hole

That distance is its event horizon, but it couldnt stay there forever because its path is divergent. A single atom lightyears away could affect its path enough to diverge toward or away from the black hole, eventually.

[yombalula]

There is no baloon, it is simply a three dimentsional model to make thinking easier. Here is the important part. Studies of the Big bang have shown that the early universe was FLAT. That means that the entire universe of MUCH MUCH (x1 million or more) bigger that the part we can see. All we can see is dependant on the speed of light and how far it can expand in a given amount of time. This distance is called the EVENT HORIZON. That is any event happening sufficiently far away that it's light has not reached us is totally unobservable. ALL the CBR (cosmic background radiation) orginated about 300,000 years after the Big Bang and all we can see when we look out is this cosmic fireball. If you go back to that expanding baloon again you can see that if light started out when the baloon was very small it spiraled out to the present surface (to look far away is to look back in time). As space expanded the light lost energy and went from 3000 deg K down to its present 3 deg K.

[Lighthouse]

I know nothing about Quantum Mechanics/Physics however, I'm a "Pipe Smoker" by nature so if I fumble while posting this, please bear with me.   I'm reading Steven Hawkings book, A Breif History of Time and have gotten to the chapter about the Expanding Universe and have gotten stuck/obsessed/completely confused about the concepts in this book and I'm hoping that there is someone in this forum who is as much of a Pipe Smoker as me with an expertise in this area who can maybe explain this to me.  Additionally, I'm not really sure where to post this pontification so if it doesn't belong here... sorry

In the chapter, Hawkings talks about how Einstein was so convinced that the universe was static that he modified his theory to make this possible and only one person was brave enough/willing to go ahead and predict and explain a non-static universe was Alexander Freidmann.  Hawkings goes on to explain it like this,

"Freidmann made two very simple assumptions about the universe: that the universe looks identical in whichever direction we look, and that we should not expect the universe to be static.  In fact in 1922, several years before Edwin Hubbles discovery, Freidmann predicted exactly what Hubble found."

This does not make sense in the world as we know it because if we turn on a light bulb, the light extends out omnidirectionally and does not loop back to its original source.  The assumption is that in the case of the big bang, the same would seem to occur, however since gravity is also incorporated into that equation so then the universe also has the capacity to slow down in its expansion and ultimately contract if the force of gravity is strog enough.  

Then we skip to 1965.  At Bell Labs in NJ, some scientists were testing a very sensitive Microwave Detector.  (this is like a light wave detector, however the frequency is different)  What they found when testing this equipment was that in every direction, no matter what time of the year or the angle to the horizon line, the static was measured to be the same.  This static was the static of the universe.  To cut to the chase... What they found was that from the perspective of the machine, the earth seemed to be in the center of the Universe... of course this is absurd.  What they ultimately found was that they were actually proving Freidmann's theory.

He goes on to explain it like this... if you took a balloon and placed a bunch of dots on it, as you blew it up, the balloon would expand and the dots would still keep their place relative to the other dots.  Additionally, each dot from the dots own unique perspective would seemingly be in the center (of the universe.)

I can't really think in these dimensions because I wonser what's outside and inside of the balloon, however, to me it is a great metaphor on how each of us has a greater part in the universe as a whole.

Here's my observation: Lets scale this model down a bit and look at the earth as our balloon... it's not expanding, however, each dot (person) on the planet has as much of an opportunity to have his or her own light (influence) seen by others.  If we block our light, it will be dimmed to the other points of light and the universe(earth) will seem darker.  If we fuel our light and live in love, then our light can be seen at greater distances and we can reach a greater number of dots with our light.

Here's my question: If indeed this is true, Freidmann... what is going on in the inside and the outside of the expanding universe (inside and outside of the walls of the balloon?)  This is what completely baffles me.  Is this where Worm holes and the like come from... cutting through the middle?

Can anyone touch this?


Sorry if it's too smoky in here.[]

--Lighthouse