Greetings all
On July 4 scientists at CERN announced that they had finally 'discovered' the long sought for and elusive Higgs Boson particle (also known as the "God particle"). According to these scientists this discovery Will fundamentally change the nature of science and may one day allow for space travel at near the speed of light.
Here is an article (from Coasttocoastam.com)
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/05/higgs-boson-find-could-make-light-speed-travel-possible-scientists-hope/
Any reaction to this from anyone?
Sincerely :-)
Grey
Well see, there's a small problem. They actually haven't "discovered" anything yet. They've found "evidence" only which supposedly supports the concept which Dr Higgs put forth regarding the Higgs Boson particle, but they haven't actually observed one yet.
The problem here is that all of this feels so forced... am I the only one here who feels like they're trying so hard to put the square data into the round hole? I don't know too much about this, but that's just the feeling that I get from it. I think if they don't find the higgs boson, they will have wasted 40+ years of research. At this point, they *HAVE TO* find it... it would be completely unacceptable to them to not find it. They, literally, have no choice at this point, it would be the largest scientific upset of the century if they don't.
This is why all this fanfare seems "forced".
I'll wait until they actually "observe" the particle before throwing any parties. LoL
The way I understand it, the partlicle can't really be seen per se, because it exists for less than a millionth of a second... what they think they found is the afterparty the particle was expected to leave after departing.
The other pretty funny thing about the whole situation, is while they are fairly sure they have found it this time, even Higgs himself has this to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ0FwzyTVK4&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ0FwzyTVK4&feature=player_embedded)
Essentially he is asked what technological breakthroughs to expect, and he just says hasn't the faintest idea of what you could do with a particle that is so short lived it almost doesn't exist.
People have speculated this particle, because it helps define the mass of other particles, can be used to "hack" new particles into existence that have certain masses and electromagnetic properties that we custom design to perform certain exotic tasks like hyper-efficient chemical processes, 2nd-order nanotechnology, and the projection of special fields of influence for things like space travel, manipulation of anti-matter, and advanced manufacturing of new materials, to give a few examples.
But anyone in a position to know is saying the thing exists for such a short time making use of it will be a challenge. Most physicists have more interest in the implications of the particle, rather than the particle's own uses.
Gotta back up that they "think" they've found it. they don't really know.
i guess that the allure of finding such a particle, even if practical use would be years away, is that it brings physicists one step close to finding the ultimate building block of which the universe is made. that's why they call it the "god particle", because they think that this is it, the final piece. i think that is the flaw in materialist science though. i'm all about the infinite continuum/spectrum. there is no fundamental piece. once they nail this one down, another one will be theorized because of its discovery. that's how it works in material science. they won't find the fundamental nature of the universe at CERN.
that doesn't negate the potential technological uses (which would be years off like i said) though. that would certainly be cool, but it's not gonna give them that ultimate answer that physicists seek. for all the answers it provides, it will provide twice as many questions. that's the way these things work.
it's still cool though.
Hi,
Maybe a trip back into the history books may help them. Someone daring should send them a copy of Occult Chemistry.
Start shouting string theory about tiny helical things inside the atoms. And Hydrogen really is made of 18 counterparts not 2.
Video their reaction and send to YouTube. lol...
Greetings
Xanth
Your point about the scientists actually Not finding anything yet is well made. And Yes I also feel that their confidence about this 'discovery' is very forced. I find it 'funny' that these scientists fall all over themselves in congratulating their success even though their work has never been scrutinized by anyone else or peer reviewed in any scientific publication. Yet these same scientist will 'debunk' any evidence of psychic abilities or paranormal activity even though that evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of such phenomena existing. :? :roll: :|
Regards 8-)
Grey
(http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/image/609/609/93546830-higgs-boson.jpg)
We all use products and computers and things that took science to create everyday. EVERY ONE OF US are part of a society that's built on science and innovation. Yes there is a lot of junk, but you can't generalize all of it. It's not that simple.
I think what gets me is the only time in my life I've seen people knock science like this is from christian fundamentalists that believe the earth is 5000 years old and dinosaurs never existed. Those people would still believe in a flat earth if it wasn't for science... and some people still think the earth is hollow. People that have been on this forum who are members of our group.
We ALL need to be open minded, no one has all the answers. (The scientists themselves don't like the term "God Particle"... it was said once or twice and became a media buzz-word.)
Indeed. It has been said many times, but it is important to understand the scientific method, and the social scientific hierarchy and its systems of acceptance and promotion are very separate things.
Unbiased empiricism is without a doubt one of the few tools that has provided us singlehandedly with every major technology, every breaktrhough of understanding, and has dispelled scores of superstitions and arbitrary beliefs.
The scientific community itself is another matter. It is full of indviduals with their own biases, their own agendas, and their own scores to settle for reasons of self interest.
And new and unorthodoxed ideas have a lot of inertia to overcome to be accepted by the community. The editors and publishers of the major research journals have tons of bias, and frown upon articles and logs which go against the current conventions of the day. If it were not for this, researchers like Charles Tart would have tons of funding, but then these things are very seasonal... the curiousity and willingness for acceptance was there in the atmosphere of the 70's, but since then the interest has waned, and with it the willingness toward openmindedness and funding as well.
There is science, and then there is "our science". Another name for "our science" is of course the "scientism" that most people are thinking of when they bemoan it.
Science is a powerful and near-supreme tool, but unfortunately it is also practiced by extremely partial individuals- you have to remember both come together before you condemn or over-praise "science".
Quote from: Greytraveller on July 10, 2012, 14:02:50
Greetings
Xanth
Your point about the scientists actually Not finding anything yet is well made. And Yes I also feel that their confidence about this 'discovery' is very forced. I find it 'funny' that these scientists fall all over themselves in congratulating their success even though their work has never been scrutinized by anyone else or peer reviewed in any scientific publication. Yet these same scientist will 'debunk' any evidence of psychic abilities or paranormal activity even though that evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of such phenomena existing. :? :roll: :|
Regards 8-)
Grey
Honestly, I believe it's entirely $$ motivated.
If this quest for the Higgs Boson doesn't pay off soon... they'll probably lose their funding.
Hi,
Good post Xanth.
Its always this way. R and D costs millions and joe public can't handle that cost.
Results have to be found or the funding stops.
Yes its biased. Without this funding theres nothing.
Catch 22.
I don't want to sound too stupid, but I don't understand this to be really honest.
What is so special about this particular particle? Havn't we discoved super-strings, and isn't that supposed to be the building blocks of matter? (or the quantum world, rather...) Or am I wayyy of track?
What am I missing? (Sorry if this is a really stupid question, just want to get my head around it, thats all!)
I don't believe string theory has ever come close to be proven. The problem, so I understand, is that there are too many assumptions holding it up.
The Higgs Boson is supposedly "THE" particle that gives other particles their mass. According to scientists, no other particle can exist without the existence of the Higgs Boson.
You're just getting different theories mixed up. :)
I hope they do not try to determine its mass, as that will shrink the planet to the size of a pea :-D
Hi,
You know they will and heres how.
After they kick magnets they'll use a mass-sieve-device to cycle-a-tron to produce these god particles. Then the filtration provided by the mass-sieve-device frees up these new things found while they weight for them to dissapear in one micro second.
Quaint!
it does all sound interesting...to be fair. The question is, how far will this go?
Imo, it's all reductionism at its best. All the time, they're looking only at bits and bytes instead of what these bits belong to (the computer or the whole software program). Then they will discover even smaller bits and bytes and microbits and microbytes, etc.... Mainstream science in a dead-end street. :roll:
We don't know the implications yet. I see it as gaining a physical knowledge that goes in the book with the rest of what we know, and who knows how it's going to be used later? It might not be of any practical use for many years, but this is the type of stuff that gets us closer to teleportation and anti-gravity and other fictional stuff that could be a reality one day. I hate flying and want my teleporter!
Lol... what if the "you" on the other side of the telporter isn't you per se, but a clone with all of your memories?
My philosophy prof was convinced teleporation devices were not so much a means of traveling so much as a means of dying and cloning, haha.
Hey!
Too much TV. You two need grounding. Teleporter, ha.
I must FLY......
Couldn't resist.
Quote from: Stillwater on July 19, 2012, 01:06:46
Lol... what if the "you" on the other side of the telporter isn't you per se, but a clone with all of your memories?
My philosophy prof was convinced teleporation devices were not so much a means of traveling so much as a means of dying and cloning, haha.
In one of Orson Scott Card's books, when they teleported they basically went into Frank's F4 where their physical make-up is transferred into energy, then put back together at their destination in the physical. The downside was that you had to stay completely focused or you would accidentally bring back anything your mind created.
There was a post Frank made about things he had learned in F4 about the possibilities of teleportation and things like that. I tried for a long time to find it and never could. I'm 99% sure it didn't make it into Xanth's collection of posts.
Do I think I'll see teleportation in my lifetime? Possibly, who knows? When I was a kid I would have flipped out knowing the tech that would be available to me in 25 years.
With a teleporter your molecules would be broken down into a particle stream and then shot through a worm hole. Since all the particles in your body are quantumly entangled with each other and your quantum phenomenalistic self (soul or consciousness), I suspect that your consciousness will travel with you. So I doubt it is dying and cloning.
In the case of teleporter duplicates I suspect that they end up in the exact same state of health as the original with one tiny difference, they're dead! It may depend on the teleporter technology used. Another possibility is that your consciousness splits off into two people. This is something that happens all the time anyway, it is just that the duplicates (or counterparts as I like to call them) usually end up in other universes. i.e I turn left and my counterpart turns right.
QUANTUM HUMOR
Your honer my client is not guilty, for the crime did not really occur until the police officer observed it. It was the police officers observation that caused the crime. Therefore the police officer is guilty and my client should be set free :-D
QuoteWith a teleporter your molecules would be broken down into a particle stream and then shot through a worm hole. Since all the particles in your body are quantumly entangled with each other and your quantum phenomenalistic self (soul or consciousness), I suspect that your consciousness will travel with you. So I doubt it is dying and cloning.
In the case of teleporter duplicates I suspect that they end up in the exact same state of health as the original with one tiny difference, they're dead! It may depend on the teleporter technology used. Another possibility is that your consciousness splits off into two people. This is something that happens all the time anyway, it is just that the duplicates (or counterparts as I like to call them) usually end up in other universes. i.e I turn left and my counterpart turns right.
QUANTUM HUMOR
Your honer my client is not guilty, for the crime did not really occur until the police officer observed it. It was the police officers observation that caused the crime. Therefore the police officer is guilty and my client should be set free
Yes, this is the classic answer most Muslims and Christians use for the teleporter problem with respect to mind and identity. It is a fairly Aristotelian viewpoint.
My own gut feeling is that if rather than transporting yourself, you merely sent your data, and another you was built on the other side, I feel that you would both be conscious, and seperate entities. Since the you on the other side that was built is not your mind or persepctive, I would also reason that if you sent yourself your current self would die. Teleporters don't necessarily imply entangleement, but your argument is stronger in an entanglement system.
if you walk 5 feet forwards the body at the end is a different reality to the body at the start, at the same time,
so whats the difference,
its a "new you" every time you make a choice
:NoY:
Yeah, but in this discussion "you" also implies continuous perspective. I am not the person I was seconds ago, but I retained the same perspective as that person. The point is in the teleporter problems, that might not hold...
Xanth: I don't think they ever expected this to "pay off." This isn't like the pharmaceutical industry, where R&D is expected to bring returns when they make a new marketable drug. Like most research in physics, if anything with a dollar value is created it will be incidental to the main goal. This was funded by several countries working together, it's not a private venture at all. The goal was research for its own sake. Don't be so cynical :)
The Higgs particle is predicted by the grand unified theory: dozens of various particles and their behaviors have been predicted by complex mathematics, and their existence has all been proven through rigorous testing to the highest degree of accuracy. The Higgs is the only particle they have not observed, so in essence it's that missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle you need before you can claim you've solved it. A unified theory (and by theory we mean a set of laws that described observed behavior, not a theory as in a "hypothesis") has been the goal of physics for many decades now, hence the global effort towards finding this last missing piece.
I read an interesting teleportation study a while ago, that said Teleportation would have to overcome some serious natural laws to work. When you teleport something, you have to either physically transmit someone's physical matter and reassemble it at the destination, or you have to transmit data which describes the configuration of said matter and assemble it out of "spare parts" at the destination.
When you're moving matter, you run into the problem of finding enough energy to move it. Accelerating even a microscopic object to the speed of light takes an incredible amount of energy: to move a small rodent would take the power of an entire city. Consider the power you get when you explode an atomic bomb, with a core that weighs about 50 pounds. If it was perfectly efficient it would create an explosion in the hundreds-of-megatons range. Multiply that by 3x and that's how much power and energy you'd need to accelerate a standard 150lb person to the speed of light, if you could harness all that heat and light.
If you're moving data, you have a different kind of problem, because you have to capture and send all the states of every sub-atomic particle comprising a person. We don't have any way of transmitting or even storing that kind of data right now, even if we used every computer hard drive in existence on earth.
Can't speak for what we will have in the future, though :)
Quote from: Stookie_ on July 19, 2012, 11:51:25Do I think I'll see teleportation in my lifetime? Possibly, who knows? When I was a kid I would have flipped out knowing the tech that would be available to me in 25 years.
Psychic teleportation maybe already happened. In China. Even many years ago.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf
Quote:
"The experiments were well controlled, scientifically recorded, and the experimental results were always repeatable.
The Chinese papers are all extremely interesting and very well written, and they show photographs
and schematic diagrams of the various experimental setups. The experimental protocols were explained
in lengthy detail, and thorough data and statistical analysis were presented in the results. The combined
results from the several Chinese experiments showed that:
- different research groups designed different experimental protocols, used different gifted
psychics, used different sealed containers, and used different test specimens (live insects, bulk
inanimate objects, and even radio micro-transmitters were used to track the location of the
specimens) that were to be teleported;
- the time required for the teleportation of test specimens through various barriers was anywhere
from a fraction of a second to several minutes, and this was not dependent on the test specimen
that was used, the sealed container that was used (or its barrier thickness), which experimental
protocol was used, or which psychic was being used
- the high-speed photography/videotaping recorded in one series of experiments that test specimens
would physically "meld" or blend with the walls of sealed containers; and recorded in a different
series of experiments that test specimens would simply disappear from inside the container only
to reappear at another location (after seconds to several minutes of time transpired), such that the
test specimen did not actually undergo total material disintegration/reintegration during
teleportation – this data is important, because without the aid of electronic monitoring
instruments, the average person's sensory organs and usual methods of detection are temporarily
unable to perceive the test specimen's (ambiguous) existence during the teleportation process;
- the radio micro-transmitter used as a test specimen in one series of experiments (Shuhuang et al.,
1981) transmitted a radio signal to several stationary electronic instruments/receivers, so that the
specimen could be tracked and monitored (via signal amplitude and frequency measurements)
during the teleportation process; the experimenters discovered that there was large fluctuations in
the intensity (in both amplitude and frequency) of the monitored signal to the effect that it would
either completely disappear or become extremely weak (to the extent that the monitoring
instruments could scarcely detect it) – it was discovered that there was a definite correlation
between the change in strength (i.e., radical frequency shifts were observed) of the monitored
radio signal and the teleportation of the test specimen, such that the weak or absent signal
indicated that the specimen was "nonexistent" (or in an altered physical state) during teleportation
(note: the monitored signal amplitude and frequency of the micro-transmitter specimen were
stable before and after teleportation);
- before and after "passing through the container wall/barrier", the test specimen and the
container's wall/barrier are both complete solid objects;
- the gifted psychics were never allowed to see (they were blindfolded in many experiments) or
touch each of the test specimens or the sealed containers before and after experiments were
conducted, and only the experimenters touched the specimens and containers (using both blind
and double-blind protocols);
- the experimental results were all repeatable
- the conditions for fraud and sleight of hand were totally eliminated, and multiple independent
outside witnesses (technical and military-intelligence experts) were present at all times to ensure
total fidelity of the experiments
The experimental radio micro-transmitter and high-speed photography/videotaping data offer an
important clue on what the teleportation mechanism is, and this will be discussed further in Section 5.1.1.
The Chinese were unable to offer any significant physics hypothesis that could explain their results.
Some researchers stated that it is necessary to invoke a new physics, which somehow unifies the human
consciousness (i.e., physics of consciousness) with quantum and spacetime physics, in order to
understand p-Teleportation and related PK phenomena. The researchers were amazed by their repeated
results, and were barely able to fathom the altered "state of being" that test specimens underwent during
teleportation."
Also: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.physics/2005-02/10684.html
Quote
"The date is January 3, 1987; the place, Beijing. Inside the
Chinese Communist Party Central Committee Training Center for
Province-Level Cadres, a strange spectacle is unfolding before
the eyes of the approximately thirty witnesses in the room.
"Bring in the bottle!"
In answer to the command, someone brings in a bottle filled with
medicine pills of various kinds.
The official clerk inspects the bottle and certifies that it has
never been opened, the cork is firmly in place, the wax seal is
intact, and the plastic bottlecap is sitting securely on top.
"All right, you may proceed!"
The bottle is handed over to a man, who quietly concentrates his
entire being on it.
Soon afterward, forty-four medicine pills are transported out of
the bottle. The experiment in "psychokinesis" (moving objects
with the mind) is a success. The main character in this scene is
Zhang Baosheng, a man around thirty years old who is one of
mainland China's super psychics. Famous for his prankish
personality, Baosheng not only moved the pills out of the bottle
as he was supposed to, this time he also sent into the bottle one
piece of candy.
Fascinating, huh? :-o
Quote from: Volgerle on July 27, 2012, 06:53:47
Also: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.physics/2005-02/10684.html
Fascinating, huh? :-o
That would not stand the Randi test, too poorly conducted experiment.
Nothing and no one passes the Randi test, so it is moot. Randi doesn't do much but embelish his materialist claims by refusing dozens of possible anomalies from being tested. What Randi does is not science, because science does not depend so heavily on personal feelings and subjective opinions.
That is like saying that only containers which can hold more liquid than their volume are worth anything, or that the only real vehicles are the ones that get you there before you leave.
Quote from: Pauli2 on July 27, 2012, 07:16:58
That would not stand the Randi test, too poorly conducted experiment.
I don't apply "Randi tests" to find sth fascinating. :wink:
Imo, no one should apply Randi tests actually as they are not designed for a truly sceptical investigation at all. :| Anyway, let's not make this yet another Randi thread please. :roll: :-)
But yes, the second link is (opposed to the report above it) only almost 'anecdotal evidence' and it is also reported by a third party, although witnessed by a group then, even by a kind of official or military agency, still I agree that we cannot consider it as 'proof'.
However, for me it is at least still very questionable if a skilled magician with conventional 'techniques' could replicate the same and dupe the audience without any preps. Stage magicians (like Randi himself was one) actually might be able to do amazing tricks add-libbing, too. Randi might still assert to be able to do it. I have my doubts. Many pro tricksters and stage magicians might have severe problems if they do not prepare and 'set the stage' for themselves (have a home game, so to speak) - which was definitely not the case here, at least it does not read this way.
Robert McLuhan also mentions in his book (http://www.amazon.com/RANDIS-PRIZE-sceptics-paranormal-matters/dp/1848764944/) many historic examples where the skeptical investigators actually shackled the psychic, plus holding them personally, and the person was still able to produce telekinesis around the room and other feats. Some of the more skeptical investigators then probably duped themselves when they still maintained (beyond 'reason'!) that the psychic used conventional 'tricks'.
E.g. if the subject's hands and arms are tightly bound and controlled how can that person manage to let 'a hand' touch the shoulder of one of the investigators standing metres away and do other pk feats? Hypnotic techniques maybe? But it is group hypnosis then. On the other hand, hypnosis might be a paranormal thing, too, after all.
And even then the explanation for conventional techniques often is more 'paranormal' in itself then the original 'paranormal' explanations. That's the irony of all the Randi's 'explanations' in this world. Good examples of these events in the course of the history of paranormal / psychic research are described in detail in McLuhan's book. It's very illuminating.
Ok Volgerle, then take it from a more political perspective.
The purpose of the People's Army is to protect all of China from other nations.
The purpose of the Red Army is to protect the Communist Party from the Chinese people.
That's the basis for everything in China since Mao's takeover.
---
Then you have to consider some more contexts.
The Communist Party has time and time again put Buddhists in prison, some monks
who have been reported to have supernatural abilities before imprisonment.
Further, the regular Chinese people are superstitious. Large parts of the population adhere to the
old Chinese belief that when a government is to fall, it is preceded by bad crops, poverty or other
problems, something China has had lots of. The people has several times in historical settings
turned against their government and overthrown it during such hardships.
If the Communist Party can claim to have anyone in their control with supernatural ability,
they will make the work for the Red Army so much easier.
Quote from: Volgerle on July 27, 2012, 08:55:47
E.g. if the subject's hands and arms are tightly bound and controlled how can that person
manage to let 'a hand' touch the shoulder of one of the investigators standing metres
away and do other pk feats?
Why do you ask? :)
"Fry who was supposed to be tied firmly to a chair was allegedly discovered
to be free of his bonds and holding up a trumpet that hitherto was believed
to be levitating by itself."
If Randi didn't have that stupid challenge, would anyone here even know who he was? I sure wouldn't. Why does he get so much credit? It sounds like he's a half-assed Penn & Teller.
Quote from: Pauli2 on July 27, 2012, 09:47:03If the Communist Party can claim to have anyone in their control with supernatural ability, they will make the work for the Red Army so much easier.
So you think this series of scientific expermimentation including all the documentation work as it was published in scientific literature and translated by the DIA in the early 90ies is an all-out forgery (scam) by the Chinese gov/military to dupe the enemy (inner and/or outer enemies)? Hence the US military here also was duped: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2368189/Teleportation-Physics-Study ?
Quote"In September 1981, an extraordinary paper was published in the PRC in the journal Ziran Zazhi (transl.: Nature Journal), and this paper was entitled, "Some Experiments on the Transfer of Objects Performed by Unusual Abilities of the Human Body" (Shuhuang et al., 1981). The paper reported that gifted children were able to cause the apparent teleportation of small objects (radio micro-transmitters, photosensitive paper, mechanical watches, horseflies, other insects, etc.) from one location to another (that was meters away) without them ever touching the objects beforehand. The experiments were operated under exceptionally wellcontrolled conditions (both blind and double-blind). The researchers involved included not only observers from various PRC colleges and medical research institutes, but also representatives from the PRC National Defense Science Commission. Because of the involvement of the latter, it was deemed necessary that an unclassified Intelligence Information Report be prepared by the DIA (see Shuhuang et al., 1981), which included a detailed English translation of the article.
Additional research carried out by the Aerospace Medicine Engineering Institute in Beijing was reported in the July 1990 issue of the Chinese Journal of Somatic Science (Kongzhi et al., 1990; Jinggen et al., 1990; Banghui, 1990), which was also translated into English by the DIA. Reported in several articles are experiments involving the videotaping and high-speed photography of the transfer of test specimens (nuts, bundles of matches, pills, nails, thread, photosensitive paper, chemically treated paper, sponges dipped in FeCl3, etc.) through the walls of sealed paper envelopes, double layered KCNS type paper bags, sealed glass bottles and tubes with sealed caps, and sealed plastic film canisters without the walls of any of these containers being breached. All of the Chinese experiments reported using gifted children and young adults, who possessed well-known extraordinary PK ability, to cause the teleportation of the various test specimens. In all the experimental cases that were reported, the test specimens that were teleported were completely unaltered or unchanged from their initial state, even the insects were unaffected by being teleported. The experiments were well controlled, scientifically recorded, and the experimental results were always repeatable." (...) (Rest of quote see other post )
Well, yes, anything is possible of course, but how have we 'proof' for this assertion then? I mean, we cannot know anyway. Just speculate.
Quote from: Volgerle on July 27, 2012, 14:35:05
... by the Chinese gov/military to dupe the enemy (inner and/or outer enemies)?
Hence the US military here also was duped:
I don't think they were duped.
They were scaring their enemies.
If those children could move an insect or a 3 cc of ice cream into a jar,
why couldn't they move 3 cc of the brain of Brezhnev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Brezhnev) into a tin can?
Fear is a mighty weapon.
I think your comment about Randi's test is unfair. Someone who wants to pass Randi's test is either
a) mentally ill and deluded into thinking they have powers when they don't
b) a charlatan who is lying and believes he can trick his way past the test or
c) sincerely able to pass the test because they have special powers.
If nobody passes the test it means nobody is in category C has taken it yet, not that the test is invalid.
If you thought you had powers but couldn't pass the test I'd say your powers are pretty useless because they cannot demonstrate anything of any value.
Some context on the experiment.... It was predicated on the mathematical extensions of the Standard Model of Physics, one of several competing theories but supported by a dwindling few physicists who still adhere to it. Or maybe not; they could just be cynics who find existence off the government teat difficult, and haven't landed their dream assignment yet. As a retired physicist, I find John Wheeler, David Bohm, and Wojciech Durek's theories to align more closely with my own experiences. The mathematics scale to the macro, and new experiments are validating them. The Higgs field will ultimately be discredited, I believe.
QuoteIf nobody passes the test it means nobody is in category C has taken it yet, not that the test is invalid.
I would actually go that far and say the test is invalid.
Randi personally dismisses scores of potentially capable applicants for no other reason than his own whims (which he grants himself the right to do in the rules).
In the sense that many people who might have been placed in Group C have been dismissed through no fault of their own, the test is an invalid means of finding Group C individuals.
Quote from: Pauli2 on July 27, 2012, 15:24:19
I don't think they were duped.
They were scaring their enemies.
If those children could move an insect or a 3 cc of ice cream into a jar,
why couldn't they move 3 cc of the brain of Brezhnev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Brezhnev) into a tin can?
Fear is a mighty weapon.
Yes, this might be a motive, too, for publishing it. After all, the military was present. Nowadays every progress or discovery is first thought of as being 'weaponized'. That's the sad state of this world we live in.
Anyway, what does it say about the veracity of the experiments? It even let's us conclude they might be the 'real thing'. They have been taken at face value by the writers of this scientific document (the Air Force's scientists), after all. Yes, you are right. Actually it is scaring if we have people in this world who could do these things to us. Not sure if I ever want to meet one.
Quote from: Volgerle on July 28, 2012, 07:22:20
Anyway, what does it say about the veracity of the experiments?
It even let's us conclude they might be the 'real thing'.
That report was from the 1980ies, so I would expect someone else to have
been able to reproduce the same experiment, but it also has too much of
the
Men staring at goats / Project Stargate feeling.
The amazing results by Charles Tart in the 1960ies have never been reproduced
either, and those where very simple experiments with low costs.
That's strange that no more results have been produced in modern time,
post year 2000.
QuoteThe amazing results by Charles Tart in the 1960ies have never been reproduced
either, and those where very simple experiments with low costs.
That's strange that no more results have been produced in modern time,
post year 2000.
Yes, I always found that odd too.
It was mostly the "Miss Z" materials that were published; Tart himself claimed that there were many more successes after that, but I don't really see record of them.
One thing is that funding for work like that was much more availible in the 70's when public orthodoxy would at least turn a blind eye to it, and to do it today is more-or-less academic exile, so you don't see too many attempting it unless they are already knee-deep in this stuff.
But that said, yes, I would also expect there to be more experimental anecdotes than we see for sure.
Quote from: Stillwater on July 28, 2012, 08:59:51
. . . and to do it today is more-or-less academic exile, so you don't see
too many attempting it unless they are already knee-deep in this stuff.
Yes, but there still should be some wealthy academics who could do those
very simple experiments under controlled forms. Some should have been
able to do those experiments for example, post retirement, but I find
extremely few such examples which holds water.
And there should also exist some wealthy benefactors who would like
to know what's true and fund those experiments, but very few such
success stories can be found.
That's really strange.
Yes it should be much more. But we don't know what is being done in clandestine ways in secret (state?) labs around the world. We don't know if the Russians and Chinese kept up their psi research. I assume they do to this very day, so does the US and others. This document about the Chinese (if it is 'real' and I assume it is) is just the tip of the iceberg. Keeping things secret is a weapon, too.
As regards published material by non-affiliated researchers: well, it was mentioned correctly above that it is a funding issue. That hits the nail on the head. Psi does not yet comply with the materialistic Zeitgeist of present academia. Some say it is changing now and a consciousness shift takes place. But it may still take years to see an effect.
There is another hurdle to take: there is a great resistance by the orthodox science community to let these researchers publish their findings in peer-reviewed and renowned journals. But this being done is very imporant for ackknowledgement in science.
Dean Radin also always comments on careers on parapsychology. He says that young undergratuates are systematically discouraged should they consider to go along this path. That's the system, guys. :oops:
Parapsychologists are a rare breed and they even might be even dying out now due to the dogmatic apparatus of materialist science clamping down on them from the beginning. It is all about careers. If you want to have a career you stop being an idealist and comply. Money first, idealism last.
I recommend this video by D. Radin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
If we go back to the Higgs boson, the scientists say that they have not found the Higgs boson,
they've found one Higgs boson out of many possible bosons. And as they don't know the
exact properties of the Higgs boson, there is still possibility that the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_model) will
fall. There are other QM models which predict up to 5 different kinds of particles similar
to the Higgs boson.
The problem is that the scientists collide protons, which in the moment of collision may have
their quarks aligned non-optimally. The collisions result in a very huge range of energies,
so the collider can only be regarded as crude measuring tool to a worth
of € 7.5 billion.
They will build a better toy next time. :)