Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.
I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.
I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?
So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?
Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?
Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?
When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.
When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!
So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?
So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.
So I put it to you.
Is the Universe an illusion?
I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".
In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.
If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".
Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.
Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.
If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.
I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.
I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.
I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?
So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?
I'm not sure about the word illusion..
What does it mean that the universe is an illusion?
Things here largely feel 'real-ish' to me but maybe i'm in the illusion :?
there are things we (at least in the western society) seem to only now be perceiving more correctly on a wider scale (eg. we seem to create our own realities).. In the past most people probably thought "excrement happens" and it does.. but typically we are being active or passive participants in the play..
My take on things is that there was in the beginning
nothing and through a very long an arduous process
something arose from the
nothing.. do not ask me how... but it makes more sense logically than there being
something in the beginning..
I believe that the consciousness that arose from the nothing is at present infinitely more advanced than anything else that exists.. This is likely as it has had the longest time to develop and advance itself... Other consciousnesses may merge with it and should they do this their cumulative knowledge would likely be shared..
I believe before creating a physical universe that it had conceived... it developed a way to store the information it had gathered up to that point so it didn't have to start it's learning again.. due to the immense forces that would be required to create physical reality it's decided the building blocks of the universe (electrons, quarks, strings.. smaller & smaller etc..) would be storage devices for information so that it did not loose the knowledge it had gained...
We are likely
not living in the
Creators first attempt at a physical universe..
I figure it is all
consciousness not illusion
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?
Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?
When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.
When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!
Are we creating it? What is creating it? Is it consciousness? Where does it reside?
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?
I figure we are living in it.. but i believe it is held together largely by the immense force of the Creator - partly by the laws that were imbedded in the building blocks of the universe.. With maybe a little help from our higher selves & other powerful beings... For what reason? As yet unsure..
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.
I thought the universe was still expanding.. is that not true?
When it does stop expanding i figure it will slowly collapse in on itself and BAM! - Another Big Bang with a new physical universe as a result!
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
So I put it to you.
Is the Universe an illusion?
I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".
In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.
If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".
Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.
Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.
If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.
I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.
I figure that the ORIGINAL CREATOR realised that instead of sitting around for another zillion years or so to have other conscious beings evolve.. that
it has given us a head start on the path toward evolution by providing for us the physical & other realities we find ourselves in with laws that must be understood so that we evolve most rapidly..
So illusion or not? I do not know..
Just my two cents :wink:
QuoteI propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.
That's about as far as I've gotten at the moment. I'm fairly sure from my own experience that everything is just consciousness. A way I like to word the illusory aspect of it is: it's not that everything isn't real, but it's not real in the way we perceive it to be real. It's not fake, but our perception of it is skewed and with 6 billion people sharing the same view of it, we all support each others incorrect perceived reality. When 1 person sees it differently, it's nearly impossible to convince anyone else.
Everything has to be made of the exact same substance, with no difference in the material itself at all, which is what unified field theories are looking for. But from the vantage point of this single thing, which must surely include or pre-clude consciousness itself, everything is literally one. Everything is a part of it like cells in our body. So any difference from this perspective is pure illusion from a "lower" vantage point.
I would rephrase the statement to read that ---
The universe is a Misperception.
This means that Most of the universe has either Not been measured in any way or else has not been measured accurately. What 'science" knows about the universe is mostly limited because scientists do not, as yet, have the necessary ultra-sophisticated means of accurately measuring the Unknown.
By "Unknown" I include Intelligence - consciousness, quantum physics, faster than light travel and extra solar planets.
Regards 8-)
Grey
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
Reality to me just doesn't seem, how can I put it..............real.
I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.
I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?
So just how can anything truly exist and be here without everything being infinitely made of something?
Same goes for time, how slow can you go before time stops still? would time even stop? can you slow down infinitely without stopping?
Start with a second, half it, half it again, half it again. Keep halving time for as long as possible, how long can you half time for before you can't half it anymore?
When you go to sleep on a night you dream, within your dreams you can create anything you want essentially from nothingness, if you become Lucid that dream can become almost as real as reality and you can create from nothing because it's an illusion.
You don't question to yourself "what is everything here made of?" because it's not real, it's a creation/fabrication of your consciousness.
When you don't become lucid the dream doesn't seem as real but yet you don't even realise you are dreaming!!! it is as real to you when you are asleep as the waking world is when you're awake.
You are not even in control of your own dream and yet you are the one creating it!!!!!!!
So if we all ended up in a collective dream, a dream we all shared together and we created that dreamworld just how would we even realise we're dreaming? If one person can (when lucid) create a dreamscape as real as the waking world just how real would a dream be if over 6 Billion people and Billions of people on other planets were joined together in one single dream?
So in this place we call reality we hit a wall. Just how can everything be infinitely made of something else? it just simply can't. How slow can time slow down before stopping? it simply can't stop, it must slow down infinitely.
So I put it to you.
Is the Universe an illusion?
I asked this question on another board and the reply I got was "I think therefore I am".
In my opinion the saying "I think therefore I am" has no meaning to the discussion of whether or not the universe is an illusion.
If anything it could be "I think therefore I create".
Meaning we ourselves exist as a consciousness and the universe is of our own creation.
Our existence is not what is being questioned, we all undoubtedly exist but the question is does the Universe exist? is it really there or is it (just like our dreams) an illusion created from apparent nothingness.
If you look at say for example the Bible and Genesis God said "let there be light, and there was light". That sounds a lot to me like someone creating something from nothing, sounds to me like something you can do in a dream. You're in a lucid dream, it's dark and you say "let there be light" and there will be light.
I propose that we are all simply consciousness and everything other than our consciousness is an illusion, create by us for amusement or some such.
I know that what you see is is quantum, whether the quantum thing you see is an illusion is your call. I don't know what you see.
I'm going back to the O.P.
Quote from: Oblivion on August 28, 2009, 06:34:39
I mean for something to exist then it must be made of something, it can't just simply exist from nothing. Atoms are made of protons etc, protons are made of Quarks and Gluons.
I have no doubt Quarks are made of something else which leads me to think that everything must be made of something else. String theory proposes that vibrating strings create matter but then what are the strings made of?
Energy.
Energy isn't 'nothing'.
As to the universe being an illusion, illusion doesn't mean 'isn't there', it means 'it's not what it looks like'.
Maybe a better word would be a mirage.
As to what it is, I wouldn't know.
But it exists, it's just not 'just' what we can see and measure. And that's not 'nothing'.
My opinion, obviously.
Quote from: CFTraveler on September 05, 2009, 15:22:14
I'm going back to the O.P. Energy.
Energy isn't 'nothing'.
As to the universe being an illusion, illusion doesn't mean 'isn't there', it means 'it's not what it looks like'.
Maybe a better word would be a mirage.
As to what it is, I wouldn't know.
But it exists, it's just not 'just' what we can see and measure. And that's not 'nothing'.
My opinion, obviously.
Mirage is a good description. Like, when you go in a desert and see a mirage, what is it? Heat radiation. Technically, it is temperature fluctuations. But the atmosphere twists and turns; it morphs into shapes and images to entertain you.
One of the things that we need to go beyond is the idea that things come from nothing into something. The unobservable energy density of the physical vacuum sort of makes one consider that things come from more into less. Remember how matter is mostly empty?
The actual universe is not an illusion, but you and I perceive only a small fraction of it. To facilitate and make possible the very act of observation and dualistic experience of a universe, some aspect of the universe must be invisible (unobservable) to us to serve as the "background." With that being said, even our perception of physical reality is deceptive. Matter only conforms in the lens of something that observes or measures. All "things" you experience with your senses are really sensorial, hologramic representations of interference patterns undergoing Lorentz transformation relative to your point of observation.
In other words, the universe is real, but the physical holodeck that your brain makes up from moment to moment as your body detects what is "out there" with its senses is represented phenomena, and relatively illusory.
YB
The concentrated matter and energy that makes up you comes into contact with the concentrated matter and energy that makes up me in any way and we separate.
Quote from: Yamabushi on September 05, 2009, 16:28:12
One of the things that we need to go beyond is the idea that things come from nothing into something. The unobservable energy density of the physical vacuum sort of makes one consider that things come from more into less.
YB
Are you suggesting the
beginning was like this also?
Please explain!!
:-)
Quote from: Yamabushi on September 05, 2009, 16:28:12
One of the things that we need to go beyond is the idea that things come from nothing into something. The unobservable energy density of the physical vacuum sort of makes one consider that things come from more into less. Remember how matter is mostly empty?
The actual universe is not an illusion, but you and I perceive only a small fraction of it. To facilitate and make possible the very act of observation and dualistic experience of a universe, some aspect of the universe must be invisible (unobservable) to us to serve as the "background." With that being said, even our perception of physical reality is deceptive. Matter only conforms in the lens of something that observes or measures. All "things" you experience with your senses are really sensorial, hologramic representations of interference patterns undergoing Lorentz transformation relative to your point of observation.
In other words, the universe is real, but the physical holodeck that your brain makes up from moment to moment as your body detects what is "out there" with its senses is represented phenomena, and relatively illusory.
YB
I like how you described it, Yamabushi.
Quote from: newmethod on September 05, 2009, 17:25:48
Are you suggesting the beginning was like this also?
Please explain!!
:-)
I don't think there ever was or is a beginning. Beginnings themselves only happen in time and time only happens in non-time (eternity), which is simultaneous.
I do think that the idea that things must have been nothing to become something is mostly based on cultural conditioning (many Eastern thought systems consider
emptiness as the fullness of everything) as well as how we experience the effects of entropy upon the contents of our local time/space.
But entropy is relative, in my experience and research, so maybe it's better to say that beginnings, too, are relative.
A lot of you missed the real point I was making. Even energy as well as matter is made of something, and that must be made of something and so on and so forth. It's not about what we can or cannot perceive it's about the fact for any of this to exist then matter must exist infinitely on smaller and smaller levels, time must be capable of being divided infinitely. This universe and reality doesn't feel right, there's too many impossible variables.
It's like a dream, a dream is possible because it's not really there, it's a creation of thought, a creation of consciousness. A dream does not need to be infinitely made of smaller and smaller bits of matter or energy because it's not really there.
It seems realistic to presume that what we believe is reality, the universe and everything in it is just the same as a dream. It's not really real but because we're here experiencing the dream inside the dream it seems real to us but when we one day wake up from all this we'll realise it was just a dream.
String theory aside we have scientist calling such things as Quarks as elementary particles, they say there's nothing smaller. How can there be nothing smaller? it can't just exist without being made of something because it's simply impossible. Saying a particle is elementary, the smallest you can go just stinks of misunderstanding and nobody questions how it's possible for a particle to not be made of anything.
String theory is all well and good but what's the strings made of? it seems pretty lazy to simply say "oh the vibrating strings are the building blocks of the universe, there is nothing smaller". How can there not be anything smaller? are you trying to tell me that these strings exist from pure nothingness?
The universe simply cannot exist from nothing, i'm not talking about the big bang, i'm not talking about whether the universe had an beginning or whether it's infinite that has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying.
I am saying that no string or particle can exist without being made of something. The only thing that can exist from nothingness is a dream, a creation of consciousness and THAT is what i'm saying this thing we call a reality really is, it's a dream, an illusion, it's a fabrication that is like a wall that's been built up around us.
We are stuck inside a room and the walls of that room aren't real, it's a fake universe. We are inside fabricated machines (bodies) that are also a part of the illusion to keep us trapped in the illusion so we can't see what is beyond it.
Only through development of spirit and consciousness will we finally break free, kick down the walls of illusion and see the real reality.
Quote from: Oblivion on September 06, 2009, 15:56:40
A lot of you missed the real point I was making. Even energy as well as matter is made of something, and that must be made of something and so on and so forth. It's not about what we can or cannot perceive it's about the fact for any of this to exist then matter must exist infinitely on smaller and smaller levels, time must be capable of being divided infinitely.
That's exactly right, actually. You may want to look into R.N. Boyd's subquantum aether model.
http://rialian.com/rnboyd/subquantum.htm
Quote from: Oblivion on September 06, 2009, 15:56:40
A lot of you missed the real point I was making. Even energy as well as matter is made of something, and that must be made of something and so on and so forth. It's not about what we can or cannot perceive it's about the fact for any of this to exist then matter must exist infinitely on smaller and smaller levels, time must be capable of being divided infinitely. This universe and reality doesn't feel right, there's too many impossible variables.
I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. When you say "even energy as well as matter is made of something" it sounds like you think that energy and matter are different things and form is what gives it existence.
Is that what you mean?
This, like much of the physics here sounds VERY confusing but I think I understand what you are saying, we see our universe in a different way to what it is, or we could be apart of a dream. Either way, we will never know, for that would be the destruction of the human race, and possibly the universe.
Quote from: no_leaf_clover on August 28, 2009, 15:25:07
Everything has to be made of the exact same substance, with no difference in the material itself at all, which is what unified field theories are looking for. But from the vantage point of this single thing, which must surely include or pre-clude consciousness itself, everything is literally one. Everything is a part of it like cells in our body. So any difference from this perspective is pure illusion from a "lower" vantage point.
It can be easy to "know" that everything is one, its harder to see and feel that everything is one.
My guess is that it will probably becomes easier to feel when we die. The biggest illusion is believing that we are all separate from each other.
I think the electron is an energy wave formed in the pressure between positive and negative poles.
it is an illusion like a foot print in the snow its not a foot and its not snow
energy pushes and pulls at each other forming the foot print in the middle. this is why you have a male and female hemesphere
because the universe is positive and negative the female creative destructive and the male consistently positive or consistently negative the control
what this dose is persistently alter the frequency of the electron and each dip and peek in this energy wave is a different person made in the image of god.. also we exist on a planet that orbits a star. if each ray of light from the star is at a different pitch then is a different reality and because we therefore travel through many dream worlds as we orbit insisting its the same all the dreams support a very stable reality but it is still a metaphysical reality its just supported by many that say its this way or that way.
if you think about it were not really here we are just reacting to our environment of eather a positive or negative influence
this means our environment is alive not us
:NoY:
Here's my take:
I have always felt the same kind of thing you have.... that reality (or at least the reality we are currently perceiving) is an illusion. My short answer:
Everything we see as reality... matter, time, space, even ourselves, does not exist. There is only ONE thing that exists: God / The Universal consciousness. Everything else is created by thought.... the thought of the ONE. Our separateness is also an illusion. The perception of space and time, can best be explained by thinking of your mind as a radio tuner that is constantly receiving information in the form of frequencies (essentially vibrations), and this reality (and others such as Etheric Plane, Astral Plane etc) are merely the radio stations.
Think of reality and linear time as a wavefront - not measurable itself as a measure of time, but is merely an ever moving focus point in a sea of frequency.... pure thought. There is no actual movement though.... it's like scanning of a hard drive to access information to create a virtual 3d world. In reality, that world occupies no physical space, but to a character within it, it would be their entire universe. Our dreams work the same way. While immersed within a dream, that world seems real and you can perceive passage of time, and movement within space. But in reality, there is no space that you moved through, and time in the dream could have felt like hours compared to the actual passage of time in this reality. This has been referred to as 'the little dream within the big dream' - this 'waking' reality of ours really being a dream, and us the characters within it. .........Who then is the dreamer?
Also, the matrix of human consciousness, or thought has been suggested to be akin to a hologram in the way that information is stored and accessed, and so too has the entire universe been referred to in this way. There is a revered magical document called the Emerald Tablet that best describes this: "As Above, So Below" The Bible describes how we were made in God's image. It's because all of us are a mirror of the creator, and part of the creator. This matrix, this hologram universe of ours, and our own holographic consciousness, are all really the same thing.... one more quote to share "There is really only ONE of us here" There is nothing else...... just pure consciousness, the consciousness of God, the creator.
Okay.... the science behind my above conclusions: matter is not really what we think it is. The deeper we peer into things, the stranger they become, and everything appears to be made of the same basic 'stuff'. What then makes things different? Answer: String Theory.... vibrating strands of energy. It's only the difference in the frequency of the vibrations that make everything we know so vast and unique. Sound / light / brainwaves / everything is based on vibrational frequency. That includes our bodies. And if our bodies are all made of the same exact 'stuff' then why do we all have different thoughts and consciousness? So much for consciousness being the product of biology!! Consciousness too is simply vibrational frequency. So if the sea of vibrational energy is the same at the root of things... then how is our consciousness even separate from our own bodies? It's not.. they are the same thing and everyone and everything are all the same thing... Just different expressions of the same pool of vibrating energy. So what is this pool of vibrating energy then? Science can't yet say what it is... but given the intelligent design of everything we know, it must be sentient.
One last thing to ponder: Big Bang. God was said to have created the universe with a word. A word would be sound - some say 'Aum' is that word, or close to it. Sound is vibration. Thought is frequency. And a well known saying a "SPARK" of imagination..... a thought creates a spark of imagination ... a spark of creation.
Okay... not such a short answer, but it's hard to get out in one paragraph!
I too feel this way occasionally
Have you seen David Icke's new book?
I don't hpld much with Science, and I'm not a believer in a God either. I can't beleive this universe came from a 'Nothingness' (Big Bang) in order to create the matter and physical objects we perceive today. I see it as a sort of illusion, a base and physical condensation of Consciuossness/Energy that exists. We have such a limited and poor understanding of this, especially if we try to place a 'scientific' model of understanding/explanation of it. Only by a gradual meditative understanding can we understand it. There is BOTH Nothing and Something, the 2 cancel each other out. Like the Yin and Yang, both exist but are not the 'Reality' per se; They are like 2 sides of the coin; Only the coin is real.
God Or Not, I'm with the mindset that Everything around us exists because it just does.
maybe everything exists because it dident
:NoY:
A Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist stand next to each other watching a flag.
The Confucian says the wind is moving the flag.
The Buddhists says the flag is moving the wind.
The Taoist says Mind is moving.
.
Interesting. Can you please provide any links to wesites of these scientists where they make their claims and give verifiable proof of their theories?|
Quote from: grzazek on December 01, 2010, 20:04:24
The universe is NOT an illusion. It is a real tangible thing held together by strict physical laws which again, have not changed throughout the life of our universe. I know it is not an illusion because I could kill every part of life on this planet, and the universe would continue, un-phased. We are like a single atom from a speck of dust in a giants eye, we know very little about the big picture.
that's all a pretty tall claim for knowing very little of the big picture.
everything we think about reality is dictated by the biases of our survival on this planet, around this sun, in this galaxy, in this cluster, etc. etc. on into infinity. our paradigm of reality is what we, as a species, see through our unique perspective. we are collectively viewing the whole of reality from one very specific scale and position. one amongst as many as you can imagine. interpretation of data can never be the unbiased glory that it is before we look at it.
Regardless of the information/ideas/theories that have been presented in this thread, I feel I have to clarify something. It was said above somewhere that the Big Bang Theory says that things (matter) came out of nothing. That is not what the theory said- it said that before there was matter, there was infinite (or near infinite) potential. That's not 'nothing', it's just not matter- yet.
Because of the similarity between the cosmology of the Baghavad Gita (Or one of the Vedas, ICRC) and the Big Bang theory, I think the ideas presented are sometimes confused, and one is presented as the other- they are not. They can be said to support each other, but from a strict point of view, no.
Cheers.
Quote from: CFTraveler on December 01, 2010, 22:43:16
It was said above somewhere that the Big Bang Theory says that things (matter) came out of nothing. That is not what the theory said- it said that before there was matter, there was infinite (or near infinite) potential.
I stand corrected. I forgot all about the 'potential' that I learnt about in Scinv=ce lessons at school and still read about in New Scientist as being a real verifiable substance. So where did this 'potential' stuff come from? Was it born from an egg?
Scientists wouldn't dare to try to go as far as explain how it got there in the first place. If "there" or "place" are even valid words to describe any pre 'big bang' scenarios.
That's what philosophy and/or religion are for. Which is where Indian cosmology comes in handy- The idea of God becoming conscious is as good as a description as any, and fits so well with the B.B.T., that they often get confused with each other.
Or, Sheldon becoming conscious. (bad joke, see if you get it you're a nerd, and so am I for coming up with it).
What the "big bang" really is is a cop out. We can't go farther than the singularity at the beginning. All known science breaks down at the singularity and from our perspective we can't speculate.
Perhaps you can halve time infinitely, but surely time would stop at some point, wouldn't it? :)
Let's say we have 2 meters distance to walk. If you think about it logically, there is an infinite distance between the starting point and the 2 meters mark. How many points are there between 0 and 2? Infinite? What about between 1.9 and 2? Infinite. 1.999999 and 2? Infinite. But still, you're able to advance that 2 meters with no trouble whatsoever. Maybe you are confused by the way people perceive maths.
There is a difference between infinity and eternity. Math gets into the concept of infinity (that is, numbers that never stop dividing, or that cannot finish dividing conceptually- that possibly define division, without being defined themselves, like pi (as far as we know) but eternity is a philosophical concept, which can be applied to math, because if we could exist eternally (which IMO is an oxymoron) then the infinite number could continue to divide...
But since eternity implies 'no beginning either', it is beyond the scope of infinity.
:-D Or something.
Quote from: Othos on March 27, 2011, 16:13:26
Perhaps you can halve time infinitely, but surely time would stop at some point, wouldn't it? :)
Let's say we have 2 meters distance to walk. If you think about it logically, there is an infinite distance between the starting point and the 2 meters mark. How many points are there between 0 and 2? Infinite? What about between 1.9 and 2? Infinite. 1.999999 and 2? Infinite. But still, you're able to advance that 2 meters with no trouble whatsoever. Maybe you are confused by the way people perceive maths.
Just because you can divide the distance between two points infinitely doesn't mean the distance is infinite... you are just redefining (increasing, more specifically) the intervals within the original distance.
Yes...^^
Besides...the universe could still be finite. Even though scientists have actually solved the Olbers's Paradox by saying that stars don't form fast enough or live long enough to light up the dark sky at night, we might find that beyond the cosmic microwave background radiation the universe is curved onto itself when we find that the same object can be seen when we look in opposite directions.
Let's not start assuming that our universe is infinite without having proof.
we may not be able to test it either. we have a boundary that we can't see beyond because of the speed of light. when you look out into the universe you're looking back in time because of the time it takes light to reach our telescopes. at a certain point, there is a boundary where we can't see any further because the light hasn't had enough time to reach us and it never will because we are also moving. so, for all intents and purposes, you could call this a multiverse that we can never experimentally test. so all we have is the speculative....sorry....theoretical math that implies infinite expansion (and, if you're on board with Einstein, eternity).
Close your eyes, think of nothing.
What color is it, black?
Before the Big Bang there was no black, there was no void, no space, no time, no emptiness, no vacumn. The human mind has difficulty in comprehending complete and utter nothingness its not a concept we are comfortable with. Yet because the great and good have hung modern science on this we have suspended our disbelief.
The Big Bang theory is central to fabricating an argument to fit what we can currently measure to explain our Universe and is fundamentally good science and theory. However I still believe it to be nonsense, I believe that we cannot and will probably never be able to perceive the realities of the Universe but as is our way will make a damn good stab at it. One thing is certain science will shift as our understanding grows, theories such as a concave and convex are intriguing but while science and research chases the start of the How the Why goes unanswered.
The big bang is a theory on the beginning of the physical universe, not necessarily the beginning of everything. Something would have to create the big bang. Scientists know this, which is where things like quantum science and string theory come into play.
Just "nothing" and then a big bang doesn't make sense and is probably the biggest misinterpretation of it, most likely because of christians and the creation story.
There was really a Big Bang. There is evidence of a massive explosion having taken place. But it was probably only a local explosion in a myriad universes and certainly not the beginning of everything...simply the beginning of an idea in my mind. Our local known universe is an explosion in slow motion (at least from our perspective).
Quote from: Summerlander on June 21, 2011, 13:01:06
There was really a Big Bang. There is evidence of a massive explosion having taken place. But it was probably only a local explosion in a myriad universes and certainly not the beginning of everything...simply the beginning of an idea in my mind. Our local known universe is an explosion in slow motion (at least from our perspective).
Actually, there isn't any actual "evidence" of it... just background data in the form of radiation which they ASSUME and GUESS was caused by the supposed "big bang". There's no actual supporting evidence that shows it had anything to do with an explosion of such magnitude.
You should watch some interesting videos that I found on Adrian's other forum, Our Ultimate Reality: http://www.ourultimatereality.com/forums/everything-in-science-is-wrong-t1314.0.html;msg15238#msg15238
It's quite an eyeopener, that what current scientists spew as the "big bang theory" is really nothing more than just another religious belief... the modern day religion of science.
The thing is, Xanth, that the theory came first, and the calculations indicated that there should be this radiation. It stayed in the 'maybe' stage, until the Hubble telescope was built, and-lo and behold- the expected radiation was found.
Does this prove something? No, but it certainly supports it.
The Big Bang theory is simply an explanation of how the Universe came to be. No matter how deep we have been able to look into the vastness of space hoping to see the aftermath of the big bang all we see is more space.
Before reading, keep in mind that these are all theories. Nothing is set in stone, because no one really knows for sure, so keep an open mind please.
The concept of the big bang theory is often misunderstood by many to mean that something exploded somewhere and that that explosion has expanded to where we are now, but this is not at all what is meant by the big bang theory. According to the big bang theory, before the big bang there was no space or time, so there was nothing "outside" of the big bang, the universe simply expanded from a small volume to a huge volume, and this expansion is occurring even now. One thing that needs to be understood is that we are not expanding into some new part of "space". Where we are now corresponds to some place in a very small volume in the very early universe, so the big bang, according to theory, happened EVERYWHERE in the universe, even the exact place that we are right now. Looking into space to find evidence of the big bang sort of seems redundant knowing that it happened everywhere does it not? According to the theory of inflation, which is the commonly accepted theory by most astronomers these days, the universe underwent exponential expansion 10^-30 seconds after the big bang. This exponential expansion that occurred could be compared to an atom being expanded to about the size of the solar system. It got pretty big, needless to say.
Now how on earth (<-- haha get it? oh how I love irony) would something be able to do that? Most people think that the vacuum (and by vacuum I don't mean just "outer space", I mean the void between matter so on a quantum level as well) is empty, and they might be right, but for internal self-consistency of quantum mechanics and relativity theory there is an energy requirement and that energy requirement is the equivalent to 10^94 (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) grams of mass energy, each gram being E=MC^2. So if we were to take the vacuum found in ONE hydrogen atom, that would be about 10^-23 cm³ (<--extremely small if you didn't notice) , if we were to take that amount of vacuum and take the latent energy within that vacuum, there is a trillion times more energy there then in all of the mass of all the stars and all of the planets within a radius of 20 billion light years out from the earth. Imagine if consciousness allowed you to control even a tiny fraction of that energy. Creating a big bang doesn't seem all that outrageous if this were to hold true. Again these are all just theories. There is evidence that supports these theories, but not enough evidence to be considered undeniable fact, so like I said, keep an open mind!
All the best,
dotster
well you know something is UP when science has gone so far that checking the result influences the outcome.