i've never heard that the physical universe was spherical.. o.O ... hurts my head trying to comprehend that.. it would have to be a huge sphere. so huge that it would dwarf the universe as we know it and make it look like an infinitely small grain of sand. sort of like a grain of sand on earth.. if you were microscopic and you left your grain of sand, you would eventually come back to it if you traveled in a perfectly straight line for what would seem like eons. so maybe there are more 'universes', but would probably be named something other than other universes, seeing as how the universe is the WHOLE physical dimension.
the universe is expanding in all directions at an ever-increasing rate, so that all things physical will eventually be travelling at the speed of light. scientists are still trying to figure out where the gravity is coming from that causes us to increase speed as we pull away from the center of our known universe. that's how the ideas of black matter come into being.
maybe the black matter has something to do with what is beyond us. it's definitely an interesting topic.
Greetings General-Army,
If my interpretation of quantum metaphysics and the age old laws are correct, then it is quite possible, probable in fact, that there exists an infinite number of multi-dimensional Universes, each with its own hierrarchy of physical, Astral and Mental planes.
With best regards,
Adrian.
We have such a hard time conceiving of things like "eternity" or "infinity." If something is infinite . . . how can it be any shape at all?
Instant headache, just visiting this forum. [xx(] gotta go! [;)]
Hey, deep thoughts.
According to quantum physics there are multiple universes. Also, everything is everywhere until observed. Observance is what locks things in. This has been proven on the atomic level. A proton fired at a lead plate with 2 holes goes through both if looking at the energy trail left behind. If it is observed while going through, it only goes through one.
Best to all
In 1957 physicist Hugh Everett proposed his "many worlds" interpretation of quantum physics. The following excerpt explains the tests he did to prove this:
quote:
Multi-universe Interfering with the multiverse
You can see the shadow of other universes using little more than a light source and two metal plates. This is the famous double-slit experiment, the touchstone of quantum weirdness.
Particles from the atomic realm such as photons, electrons or atoms are fired at the first plate, which has two vertical slits in it. The particles that go through hit the second plate on the far side.
Imagine the places that are hit show up black and that the places that are not hit show up white. After the experiment has been running for a while, and many particles have passed through the slits, the plate will be covered in vertical stripes alternating black and white. That is an interference pattern.
To make it, particles that passed through one slit have to interfere with particles that passed through the other slit. The pattern simply does not form if you shut one slit.
The strange thing is that the interference pattern forms even if particles come one at a time, with long periods in between. So what is affecting these single particles?
According to the many worlds interpretation, each particle interferes with another particle going through the other slit. What other particle? "Another particle in a neighbouring universe," says David Deutsch. He believes this is a case where two universes split apart briefly, within the experiment, then come back together again. "In my opinion, the argument for the many worlds was won with the double-slit experiment. It reveals interference between neighbouring universes, the root of all quantum phenomena."
Excerpt taken from the following site -
http://fusionanomaly.net/multiverse.html
There seems to be more and more support of the multiverse concept.
The idea of new universes being formed from black holes -
http://www.mira.org/bonestell/kai/multi.htm
Theres so much out there!
James.
I've always thought of space as a circular 3 dimensional spiral, and if you could punch your way out of the spiral, the entire universe would be destroyed.
Hello James,
Perhaps there is yet another interpretation of the double-slit experiment. Suppose that the quantum is an object that has four dimensions rather than three. Our senses can perceive only three dimensions and therefore see only one 3-D aspect of the quantum at a time. To visualize this, we can think of a situation where the object has three only dimensions, say a tree, and our consciousness is limited to two dimensions, like a camera that creates 2-D pictures of 3-D objects.
We can simultaneously take a couple of pictures of the tree from different angles and get different images of the same tree. If we would line up the two photo negatives on top of each other, they would interfere with each other, whereas each individual negative shows a clear, well defined picture of the tree. For the double slit experiment, we can ratchet everything up again by one dimension. In other words, we make two 3-D observations of the same 4-D object from different perspectives and get an interference pattern while any single observation shows clearly one single aspect. I believe that the many-world interpretation of quantum physics is just that, the appearance of many different aspects of one and the same multi-dimensional reality.
Greetings!
Jo.
www.quantum-metaphysics.com
Everett's 1957 Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) was his explanation of the Superposition of the 2 states of a photon.
His theory goes - Science cannot measure a single photon as both particle and wave. (For this example assume the photon has been measured as a particle.) Everett saw the wave aspect of that Photon as still existing. But the wave existed in a Superposition in another dimension/alternate universe) with the particle of the same photon.
So Everett did not intend to spark speculation into alternate universes, parallel worlds and many different timelines. Yet that has been the result nonetheless.
Now if this forum were on a strictly scientific website then I would not mention this but -
The idea of alternate universes/parallel worlds fits Very neatly into the concept ot the ethereal plane(s) (and astral plane(s)). Though this was undoubtedly about the farthest thing from Everett's mind and not his intention yet nonetheless one result of MWI has been to nudge the scientific and spiritual/esoteric/metaphysic communities closer together.
Hi everyone
If there is a God, which I believe there is. The belief with God would go this way. God is a Trinity, a family within himself. Because of the over flowing of love within the Godhead, it would have been a suppression on the Trinity's love to not have created other offspring to share life and it's love with. We know for a fact that if God is real that He chose to create this Cosmos with our universe and our world in it. It only seems logical that God needs to do something to occupy his time, and to express the love within the Trinity. I believe God is creating other Cosmos, possibly to numerous to count that are in no way connected to this Cosmos, and are unreachable by any efforts on our parts or any other created offspring in our Cosmos. I believe the only way any created entity from our cosmos could enter into those other worlds of the other created Cosmos's is if God allowed it, and supernaturally transported that particular created entity to one of those other Cosmos. But concerning all the worlds that are in our particular cosmos, I believe one day the human entities along with other created entites within our cosmos will find ways to travel to distant planets within our cosmos. There is plenty enough within our cosmos to keep us occupied even if other Cosmos that are not connected to ours are unreachable. Adrian in his post above is correct to a certain extent, even though I do not know whether Adrian believes in evolution or in creation by God. Both positions can support numerous Cosmos and physical universes with their accompanying spiritual and astral planes and life forms. However, only one position is actually correct. Either evolution is correct, and their is no intelligent designer, or God is correct and their is an intelligent, loving designer who is in some ways similar to us. I, myself, believe the God view is correct.
I've just joined Astral Pulse and this is my first posting.
I've enjoyed the depth and seriousness of this and the other threads in "Quantum Metaphysics." I have been posting at a new age site (http://www.lightworker.com) and have been wanting a discussion that is more academic and less focused on participants' emotional struggles.
I was pleasently suprised to read Adrain's reference to Physical, Astral, and Mental Planes. This language immediately brought to mind the cosmology in the Michael Teaching (http://www.michaelteachings.com/advanced_topics_index.html), with which I am intimately familiar. JoWo's description of attempting to imagine a 4D object from 3D observations brought to mind my rewarding struggle with Rudy Rucker's book "Flatland."
"Greytraveller" said "one result of MWI has been to nudge the scientific and spiritual/esoteric/metaphysic communities closer together." I think that is a very worthy goal, and I would like to be a part of bringing it about. As a part-time member of a "spiritual/esoteric/metaphysic community," I'm taking a shot at joining Astral Pulse and participating here.
Greetings Transducer,
Welcome to the Astral Pulse and thank you very much for your opening post.
I for one will look forward to your further contributions, and to in discussing in depth all of these most important matters.
With best regards,
Adrian.
hi transducer, welcome to the forum !
General army, I believe that there is more than one physical universe. But I don't believe it is spherical, or any shape for that matter. Let me try and explain...
I've been reading a book on fractals. Its mostly pretty boring, the author kept on trying to "jazz up" the images of physicists and mathmaticians ! Anyway it makes some interesting points re. dimensions and how we measure them.
Going back to your spherical universe...from whose perspective is it spherical ? yours ? Are you imagining a giant beachball ? Walk back from that beachball a few hundred yards; it now appears 1 dimensional, a point in space.
Walk back towards it - its now clearly 3d. Imagine you are a tiny beetle on its surface....it is now 2d !!! get even closer.....imagine you are an electron microscope...its 3d again.
Fractional dimensions and maths solve this by recognising that dimensions are not limited to 1, 2 and 3. Supposing that space-time curves in ways that we cannot perceive, who is to say that the universe is spherical ? Perhaps there is a multitude of realities right in front of you....
....Or perhaps our conjectures will go down in history as bad science !
Greetings All,
Although I don't claim to be anything more than an armchair enthusiast for physics, both new and old, I have a few theories on the double-slit experiment and MWI in general. I think there are several valid explanations based on quantum relativity and string theory. I just wanted to say that imho the distinction between (multiple) universes and (higher) dimensions became a little confused in this thread - various people interpreting the question in terms of either universes or dimensions. I think it is possible to explain double-slit and particle superposition via either theory, or a third one.
In Ouspensky's "Tertium Organum", a classic on metaphysics, he posits time as simply motion through higher dimensions. Think about that. The confusion of "time" as a fourth dimension always struck me as foolish - it is non-spatial. General relativity showed that the concept of time is simply space, and vice versa. Ouspensky added that time in any single dimension is the result of traversing space in a higher dimension. Not only is this a stunning insight, but explains so much of astral time travel (backwards and forwards) *and* offers another explanation of double-slit aside from MWI. What if, instead of assuming a "second universe" where a particle superimposes itself, we assumed that same particle simply travelled linearly through a 4th dimension, *manifesting* in 3 dimensions as multiple versions of itself in different locations but at a single instant in time. 3-dimensionally this appears like no time passing, but from the 4th dimension this may be perceived as a chronological movement of a single particle through multiple 4-th dimension coordinates. I haven't the mathematical (or even conceptual) depth to delve deeper, and I'm sure the theory would appear ludicrous to a theoretical physicist, but it does give the casual student pause.
String theorists model higher dimensions spatially as Calabi-Yau shapes (OK for conceptualising, but don't represent linear infinity of those dimensions). Depending on the specific Calabi-Yau shape, there are different numbers of higher dimensions. A particular model (String Type IV, I think) says there are 10 dimensions. This would agree with ancient metaphysics stating there are 7 higher "planes" apart from the physical (astral, mental, causal, buddhic, atmic, et al), ergo 3 physical dimensions and 7 non-physical (yet spatial) dimensions. Time in each of these dimensions may simply be a symptom of motion in a higher dimension. Therefore physical time is simply physical+astral motion occurring simulatenously. Astral time is simply astral+mental motion, etc. Yet from within the astral (consciously) physical time seems to be traversible both backwards and forwards simply because from that plane there is no *physical* motion involved, only astral+mental, hence astral time is disengaged from physical time - the timelines are not coincident. This may explain why when consciousness leaves the body during OBE, years can transpire astrally when only minutes transpire physically on return to the body, ie there has been no physical motion binding the timelines together. Of course, dimensions may or may not be fractional, so the various RTZ densities may all incur different time penalties, and so on up the astral and mental hierarchy. Personally, I have never believed in fractional spatial dimensions - it just doesn't make sense to move through the 3.517th dimension, for example.
As for multiple universes, this may be the case, or could they simply *appear* to be "multiple" when viewed from our 3 dimensions - that is, it seems like the different versions of 3d space exist at the same point in 3d time. What if the same 3d space exists in multiple 4d locations, and this reflects 3-dimensionally as multiple timelines? For example, if a 1d point moves through a 2nd dimension, it would seem that infinite versions of a 1d point are created when viewed strictly 1-dimensionally. However, it is simply the movement of that 1d point through a higher (2d) dimension that gives the appearance of multiple "universes" - note the point: multiple *1D* universes, when in fact there is only a single 2D universe....food for though...what if our "multiple" universes are simply the same universe existing in infinite variation in a higher (4d) dimension, in linear 4d time, but this manifests as multiple universes occuring in single 3d time. Anyway, I've probably confused concepts and made a muddle of things, but you might get the idea of time, and higher dimensionality space, being linked as an explanation for many seemingly "quantum" theories. Note that string theory does make these very same claims - I hope neither string theorists, nor general relativity theorists, would feel unwelcome in a "Quantum Metaphysics" forum [;)]
Thank you for the very warm welcome. My academic knowledge of physics is fairly limited, but I'll make an effort to keep up, and to share what I've learned from channeled/new age sources (please treat this as hopefully interesting hear-say or as opinion) and the NDE research (http://www.near-death.com/ http://www.iands.org/journal.html).
I operate from a model that "13" referred to as "...ancient metaphysics stating there are 7 higher "planes" apart from the physical..." Second I take it as given that there is a part of ourselves that survives bodily death...i.e. all the NDE stuff about leaving the body, seeing it from a height, tunnels, white lights, and etc. is reflective of some reality external to the body and our 5 senses. It is NOT some artifact of a dying brain or similar hypothesis. Third, my guess is that the part of our physical self that reports these NDE's is 4D matter during the NDE itself. Fourth our current physical experience is consequent to a cooperative and intentional enterprise between 4D and 3D matter.
Time is a topic I struggle with. Linear time, changes in the rate of time (duration between 3D events), simultaniousness. I'm told that when people leave their bodies (i.e. their 4D part) and pass through the tunnel, that their energy is increased. Their energy is increased to a point that 3D perceptions of time "straighten-out" to what is percieved (by the 4D observer) as a sequential series of events (a "timeline"). While in this 4D domain (i.e. Astral Plane), one can move along this timeline a little forward a little backward, and effectively select a point, i.e. a moment, to lower one's energy down to a 3D level and then to "return" or otherwise interact here on this Physical Plane. From the Astral Plane many "timelines" are perceived.
In this approach the shape and multiplicity of universe(s) is ignored. What is postulated are energy or vibrational differences between Planes of existence, with each Plane creating a domain in which objects of different numbers of dimensions exist.
Here are a few random thoughts on the most recent posts. I cannot really tie any of my thoughts together into a cohesive concept, but here goes.
a) There is debate about time being the 4th dimension. Some scientists currently believe that time is only a means of measurement and is Not the basis of a 4th dimension.
b) Various superstring theories posit either 10 or 11 or 12 dimensions. All those theories conceptualize 6 of those dimensions as being sub-atomic Micro-dimensions that collapsed upon themselves during the Big Bang. That leaves the other 4 or 5 or 6 dimensions (depending on the theory) as being Macro-dimensions. 3 of those Macro dimensions are spacial, another dimension is temporal (?) and the other dimension(s) are ???).
c) Ouspensky postulated 6 macro dimensions. He believed that there are 3 spacial dimensions and 3 temporal dimensions. The higher temporal dimensions can only be fully understood from the perspective of the 6th dimension (3rd temporal Dimension). Ouspensky conceptualized the 6th dimension as curved and spherical in nature (roughly analagous to Einstein's theory that the 4 dimensional space-time continuun universe is curved.)
I am "convinced" by reading and other experiences that I do indeed survive bodily death. However I am limited by my education to a Newtonian / Einstein "reality." Hence my interest / lay explorations into more modern theories of physics, in an effort to find "proof" of what I'm already "convinced" of.
In that regard, thank you Graytraveller for your helpful posting above. [:)]
Hello Everyone,
Referring to 13's post of June 18, let me try to remove the confusion between multiple universes and higher dimensions. Using a metaphor, imagine a 3-D object such as a crystal. It has multiple 2-D surface planes. In fact, the 3-D space of the crystal contains an infinite number of potential 2-D planes with all possible orientations. In this sense, the three-dimensional universe includes an infinite number of 2-D universes. By the same token, a 4-D environment contains an infinite number of 3-D environments. Our senses are made of 3-D material, so we cannot expect them to perceive 4-D reality. But that's our problem and has nothing to do with how reality is. There is no reason whatsoever to assume that total reality is limited to the 3-D limitation of our senses.
Now, try to imagine that your senses were made of 2-D material (ignore the question whether this if feasible) and you lived on one of the crystal's surfaces. You would experience only whatever occurs on this particular plane and you would be unaware of the other planes because they are in 3-D space, which is "transcendent" to your world. I believe that this corresponds to how we perceive a 3-D world that is actually only one of infinite possible subsets of a multi-dimensional reality. It makes a lot more sense, IMO, to assume one unified reality with many dimensions, of which we perceive only a subset, rather than many separate realities with only three dimensions each. (My June 13 post is based on this assumption).
When we talk about multi-dimensional space, we usually try to imagine our 3-D space with added dimensions. Instead, I believe that our 3-D space is a construct in our minds that helps us to sort out the tremendous stream of multi-dimensional information that is all around us nonlocally. Information itself is mental and independent of space. It is like plotting the Dow Jones index on a 2-D surface while the information itself is "non-physical".
Jo Wolf
www.quantum-metaphysics.com
I have a question for Jo Wolf or anyone with some insight about this. I am new to learning of the possibilty of a multi-dimensional universe. I have a tendency to believe this is true. One of my first exposure to this possibility was through some aura activity and changes which took place in what I think was some kind of energy change or movement. I wrote about it in this forum somewhere when I first started visiting here. Anyway, my last dream took on an interesting image that made me think I was being shown this same process in a dream. I was dreaming and in my dream I was making a comparison to something similar in order to understand this dream. Unfortunately I forgot that part of the dream. The only part of the dream I could remember was seeing these birds(ducks or geese)flying off into the sky. The thing I was suppose to be translating were these little dark gray dots (something like a gray field in which this flock of birds were flying in). I put a word to it in my dream, I called it a sleeve.
This "sleeve" field looked very similar to a mass of dots in movement in which led to a dimensional change I experienced in regard to this aura experience in the past. Does any of this sound familiar with what quantum physics is about. I find the subject of quantun metaphysics interesting but quite difficult to grasp the information. Let me know if I'm way off on what this subject is all about.
Maybe I'm in the wrong section looking for an answer for this. I will explain further what I'm wondering. Is quantum physics about connecting the physical to other dimensional states? Besides the language and visuals of a dream a way to explore the secrets of other dimensions, omens and signs are another I believe. Is quantum physics not about this, or am I asking about something which should be placed in another catagory?
Here is another example of my question. Today while standing in the back of my house I am able to see the reflection of myself in a mirror inside standing in the sunshine. I'm thinking of a lucid dream I had some time back in which I could see my deceased father standing outside in the sunshine through a bedroom window. I continue to wonder about the physical surroundings and circumstances perhaps.
A double pane of glass (had more than one dream about this) and my connecting physical things with non physical things. Just then, a loud bang of something against the window pane in my livingroom. I go out front to see. A crow flies off. Is this a matter of coincidense/synchrony and therefore not considered in the study of quantum physics? That's my question.
quote:
Originally posted by Ides315
Hey, deep thoughts.
According to quantum physics there are multiple universes. Also, everything is everywhere until observed. Observance is what locks things in. This has been proven on the atomic level. A proton fired at a lead plate with 2 holes goes through both if looking at the energy trail left behind. If it is observed while going through, it only goes through one.
Best to all
If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?I guess the answer would be "no". [:)]
Lasher
Hello Wisp,
Yours is a valid question on the subject of Quantum Metaphysics, but I am so tied up right now that I'll have to postpone my answer, sorry. I don't think that I can give you a specific reading of your dream, but I can comment about the role of dreams in our lives and how you might be able to interpret them. – See you later.
Jo
www.quantum-metaphysics.com
Hello again, Wisp.
Many of your questions in your two recent posts are profound indeed, and depending on whom you ask, you'll get widely different views. Let's first clarify the difference between Quantum Physics and Quantum Metaphysics. Quantum Physics is the science about subatomic physics taught in universities. It deals mathematically in multiple dimensions but does not attach any "reality" to them other than their usefulness to obtain verifiable physical results. Most physicists don't believe in a "real" world beyond the physical world.
Quantum Metaphysics is a term that I have coined to describe what I believe is an invisible multi-dimensional reality that transcends our 3-D physical world. I refer to the quantum because its quaint behavior indicates to me that it straddles both our physical world and the transcendent reality beyond. By now, other authors are using the term Quantum Metaphysics also
Dreams provide a symbolic glimpse of activities in our unconscious, which I believe resides in the transcendent multi-dimensional reality. The two realities, multi-dimensional and 3-D, are not separated, because the 3-D is an inherent subset of the multi-D. We are not directly aware of the multi-dimensional reality because our senses are made of only 3-dimensional stuff.
Your subconscious is always active trying to scope out possible ways for you to evolve. Even if you don't remember a dream, the corresponding activity of your subconscious is not lost and is useful to you if you listen to your inner Self. Of course, you still want to use your rational judgment, but your hunches can alert you to circumstances that you might overlook otherwise.
To understand any specific dream, you want to identify the symbolic meaning of the images, events, and persons involved. What do ducks or geese flying into the sky mean to you? What kind of feeling does this image produce? What does the word "sleeve" imply? Does it mean a "conduit", or a path to reach out? Let your intuition suggest answers.
I am no expert in dream interpretation. I'd rather like to suggest that you read Jane Roberts' "The Nature of Personal Reality." Quantum Metaphysics leads naturally to the conclusion that the universe is full of intelligent life beyond our awareness, and Jane Roberts was an excellent psychic who channeled many books from a transcendent entity who calls himself Seth. In addition to the book mentioned, he has dictated two volumes of "Dreams, "Evolution," and Value Fulfillment." I personally trust the information from Seth more than contemporary scientific literature.
I am sure that even this long answer won't satisfy all your questions, Wisp, but keep asking. I'll try to explain what Quantum Metaphysics can provide.
Best of luck! Jo.
www.quantum-metaphysics.com
Referring to Lasher's June 29 post, there wouldn't even be any woods except in the minds of critters that may be around. It takes a consciousness that is limited to 3-D in order to "create" a 3-D reality out of the nonlocal multi-dimensional reality.
JoWo
www.quantum-metaphysics.com
Thank you JoWo. I will continue to try to grasp the concept, it's interesting.
I've been studying dreams for some time now. It has opened up my sense of intuition which has also help me see the line(lack of a better word for the moment)of what you call 3D reality and the unseen dimensional levels.
I'm familiar with Jane Roberts and Seth channelings. I have not read much of the material. [:)]
Interesting about your statement of the consciousness of the critters too.
Hi folks.
Is there more than one Universe, you betcha. Many years ago I had a kundalini raising experience under tuteledge with my Guides and had the experience of expanding to be one with the Universe. It was awesome. After that, I could go anywhere in the Universe at will, as can all people. One day while zooming around looking at different things, I decided to see if there was an edge or barrier at the limits of our Universe.
After some time, I came upon something that was a little like a membranous skin, as if we were inside a bubble. It was easy to pass through the 'skin' and look at what was out there. What I saw was millions of other bubble-verses, and it drove home the old saying....As above, so below. I had a good laugh about it then too.
About that time I wondered what was inside one of the other bubble-verses, and entered the closest one to me. At first it only felt a little different, but when I began moving further into it to see what was there, I 'felt' something fast approaching me. Within a split-second, the something manifested in front of me , looking like a weird guard dog thingy. LOL, but true. I left quick smart, you can bet on it LOL. Once back in our Universe and at my Cave, the Guides asked what my understanding was. I answered, Billions of bubbleverses exist and are co-existing and co-creating, and that it was not my place to be inside one that I am not meant to be in. My vibrationary rate is attuned to this Universe, and by entering another Universe I was like a virus entering the human body. The Guides smiled their usual smile when I get it right.
So what this long winded post is about, is that yes there are other Universes existing, and our's is only one small one in the field of what is. Try it for yourselves, it is an awesome experience. Love always, Tayesin
Lasher's post about a falling tree making or not making a sound has prompted me to share a curious Gedanken experiment. I thought the gedanken experiment up so will take the credit - or the blame- for it.
A hiker gets lost in a forest. He is out in this forest for several days and eventually runs out of food and water. Gradually he begins to succumb to the elements. On his final night, near exhaustion, he comes to a small clearing.
He has with him a tape recorder which he has used to keep a running account of his dilemma. As he records his thoughts on tape a fierce thunderstorm moves into the area. Minutes later a huge lightning bolt strikes a nearby tree sending it crashing to the ground. The lost hiker comments on tape that the tree fell nearby in the clearing.
The next day rescue workers find the body of the lost hiker who has died during the night. They play back his tape recording and listen to the lightning strike and the sound of the tree as it crashed to the ground.
But when they look out into the clearing they see that TWO trees have recently been struck by lightning. Both trees were knocked down by lightning strikes from the last night's storm. Yet only One lightning strike/tree fall was caught on the tape.
SO the question - if such a situation did exist then - if both trees fell in the forest and nobody was alive to hear them fall And only one tree fall was caught on tape then did either tree make a sound while falling[?]
If the answer is Yes, then which tree made the noise[?]
To my mind this Gedanken (or mind) experiment highlights the importance of repeatability in science. If 100 consecutive tree falls all make a recordable sound and if the next tree fall is not caught on tape then science (=observable and measurable phenomena) tells us that the last (unrecorded) tree fall Does make a sound.
Concerning Graytraveller's falling tree quantum physics has demonstrated that our act of observation "collapses" one specific reality out of an infinite number of probabilities. The infinite probabilities exist potentially in what I call multi-dimensional reality. We call an event not "real" if it may occur but has not occurred (yet). However, the possibility for such an event can be very real indeed. If I drive down the opposite lane of a super highway, the possibility of an accident is very real indeed, even if it does not occur. So we can postulate that an invisible reality exists "beyond" ours where all possible potential events exist as potentials, as probabilities. This abstract reality beyond ours is for instance described by the quantum wave function for a subatomic event. It tells us exactly the probability that a uranium atom will decay at any particular time, but it does not tell us when we will observe this event.
Quantum Metaphysics postulates that probabilities of events in our world do exist "for real". These probabilities exist in a reality that is transcendent to ours with many more dimensions than our three. It is a different reality than our space/time environment, but it is very real in its own way.
Coming back to Graytraveller's Gedanken experiment, a high probability existed for trees to fall. However, only when someone's consciousness experiences a tree-fall, only then does this fall become a reality in that person's reality. If there is no person's consciousness, then no observation occurs, and no noise exists in 3-D reality! We only believe that the trees made noise when we see them on the ground, based on past experience, but without the observation, the noise was not made real in our reality. Each one of us creates his own 3-D reality by observing his subset of a multi-dimensional reality of probabilities. The fact that we all tend to make similar observations is because our individual consciousness-es [:)] are so similar.
Graytraveller asked, "if both trees fell in the forest and nobody was alive to hear them fall and only one tree fall was caught on tape then did either tree make a sound while falling? If the answer is Yes, then which tree made the noise?"
My answer is, both trees would have made a noise if a consciousness had heard them. However, only the one noise on the audiotape was made real in our 3-D world. The other tree's noise existed potentially in multi-dimensional reality but was not made real in our world because nobody listened. The first tree's noise was the one on tape and the only one made real through observation. The lost hiker said so on tape.
Jo.
Thanx for the response JoWo. Your answer had a refreshing combination of common sense backed by scientific method. Yet it leaves open the very real possibility that unseen realms/planes/dimensions Do exist.
Higher dimensions (higher than 3 dimensions that is) already Do exist for people who have had OBEs.
Higher dimensions exist as probabilities for quantum metaphysicists.
Yet higher dimensions exist only as mathematical constructs and working models for quantum physicists.
What I find frustrating is that a quantum physicist will not admit the (virtual) reality of higher diimensions although that same quantum physicist will use those same higher dimensions in mathematical equations to prove or disprove the various quantum theories.
The quantum metaphysicist is able to see beyond the limitations of the calculator and superstring theory and admit to a possibility of higher dimensions having an independant objective existence.
For most people who have had an OBE then scientific verification of objective higher dimensions would be Nice but is not absolutely essential. The ineffable nature of the OBE both verifies the validity of the experience And explains why science cannot (yet) directly or indirectly detect the existence of higher dimensions.
This has a connection to the Lost Hiker gedanken experiment. Consider the role of an observer. Consider the likely reactions of three different people who listen to the unfortunate hiker's tape recording. What would be the reaction (subjective bias?) of these 3 observers?
Observer 1 - the quantum physicist. He/she listens to the tape and concludes that there is only a mathematical probability of a falling tree making a noise. That probability is based on observation. Sound does not exist without observation. Because without observation ( = scientific measurement) sound is only a mathematical probability.
This follows the scientific method of measuring the state vector collapse of a photon. Without observation there is only a mathematical possibility of one of 2 states existing (either wave or particle).
Observer 2 - the quantum metaphysicist.. He/she hears the tape and appears to agree with the quantum physicist in that a falling tree making a sound is based on observation. However, to the quantum metaphysicist the objective reality of that sound is not necessarily dependant on whether that sound occured in this universe. A sound that occured in another universe (or higher dimension or alternate reality) could have a valid objective existence apart from an abstract mathematical formula.
Observer 3 - the non-scientist who has had an out of body experience. He/she hears the tape and probably concludes that both trees made a sound. Perhaps the tree fall that was not caught on tape made a sound in an alternate universe or a higher dimension/plane. This person does not need mathematical models or statistical probabilities to believe that such dimensions or planes do exist. It is true that this non-scientist could not provide verifiable proof to convince the (quantum) scientists. Yet observer 3, who has an OBE, realizes that experiental proof can and does replace the necessity of scientific proofs. And besides observer 3 realizes that the scientist or mathematician cannot disprove the validity of the OBE'ers own experience and so takes more than just a little satisfaction in that trade off.[:)]
Hi Graytraveller,
I believe that my interpretation of your fallen tree Gedanken experiment is only possible based on the assumption that unseen realms/planes/dimensions Do exist. This is what I meant by multi-dimensional reality and this is EXACTLY what quantum metaphysics is about. You may find it worth your while to read my article "Revolution in Common Sense" in my website www.quantim-metaphysics.com. It explains in detail why the higher dimensions beyond our limited subset of three are very real indeed and how their reality is the basis of the life that we experience in 3-D. I agree with you, Graytraveller, that quantum physicists are "missing the boat" by denying that their abstract multiple dimensions correspond to an invisible reality.
I feel that we have an obligation to spread the word about our point of view, because this view leads directly and logically to the basic ancient wisdom that Adrian is talking about. Humankind appears to have lost contact with this inner knowledge and is heading towards disaster unless enough individuals stand up and reclaim this wisdom. I believe that this Forum and similar ones are very important by providing a platform for public discussion. The scientific and technical aspects are very interesting and challenging, but it is their deeper implication of leading us back to the spiritual (= multi-dimensional) nature of cosmic reality that is so urgent.
Jo.
P.S. I'll address the second part of your 08 July post later.
I just noticed that my website address is misspelled in the preceding text. The correct spelling is:
JoWo -
apparently I shortchanged you and other quantum metaphysicists somewhat. It is refreshing to see that you do believe higher dimensions/planes have an objecctive existence apart from mathematical models and eqations.
BTW - I do find the possibilities of quantum mechanics to be fascinating. (Example - quantum entanglemnet, 'the spooky action at a distance' and the possibility of faster than light communication and teleportation.) What I find annoying is the tendency of most scientist to arbitrarily dismiss personal experiences. In this way OBE report are just like Sasquatch sightings. Even though thousands of people have reported both going OOB and having seen bigfoot this area is considered pseudo-science and is conveniently skirted by most mainstream scientists.
Graytraveller,
One important conclusion of quantum metaphysics is that you will experience whatever you focus your attention to. Please, try not to focus on those scientists who are not yet ready to accept the truth that transcends their scientific understanding. This only enhances your frustration and perception of conflict. Instead, try to enjoy the many signs of progress towards understanding of multi-dimensional reality. You may find that you even gain a deeper understanding of your own experiences. My own awareness comes from an experience similar to OOB and my development of quantum metaphysics is based on it. However, don't take my word for it. Many scientists are now dedicated to breaking the "sound barrier" towards multi-dimensional reality. I have researched libraries and the Internet for such efforts and I have recently linked a selection of relevant websites to my site, www.quantum-metaphysics.com. Please, spread the word about these trailblazers and forget about the disbelievers. As you read more about quantum metaphysics, you will find that there is no basic difference between Observer 2 and Observer 3 of your 08 July post [:)].
Jo.
quote:
Originally posted by General-Army
Is there other universes we would be able to travel to by using worm holes or something? I learned a few days ago that if you go in one direction through the universe you would eventualy come back around the other side and end up where you started, that could mean the universe is a circle. Then that could mean there are other universes next to ours that are only able to travel to using worm holes. Is this possible?
How is that possible? If the universe is expanding then what your saying is the universe should came back to point A?
Some scientific theories, as well as channeled messges, say exactly that: the universe is "breathing" in and out, eventually returning back to the "Big Crunch".
Jo.
Greetings everyone,
When we talk of "universes", we have to clarify whether we are talking about "physical" universes, i.e. of matter, or the entire universe in all of its dimensions of reality all the way from highest vibrations,lowest density of "The All", "First Cause" and other names of "God", down to the highest density, lowest vibrations of the undifferentiated matter.
I am aware some scientists say they universe will eventually contract upon itself. This might well be the case in conceptual terms, however, this is more likely to mean that the physical, Universe will increase its vibrations and move nearer to what is currently considered to be the fourth dimension or Astral worlds. Indeed, many sources believe this will happen to Earth very soon, the end of the Mayan calendar for instance is the year 2012. At the very final analysis, the universe is The All, and everything in the Universe is an integral aspect of The All. The All cannot be added to, subtracted from or otherwise divided in any way. It is the ultimate destiny to return to The All having reached a state of perfection and therefore vibration equalling The All. This is an infinite process however.
In terms of parallel universes, my understanding of the holographic model of the universe which I personally subscribe to provides for theoretically an infinite number of individual universes all co-existing in the eternal now, each with the same heirarchies. Each individual "cell" of a hologram contains the whole hologram. This is what in mystical terms means that we are in everything,and everything is in us; there is no way anything can be separate from the whole. The wisdom of the ages has said this for many millennia, the holographic metaphor of the universe of quantum physics totally agrees.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Excellent comments, Adrian! When we talk about expansion and contraction of the universe, we mean our physical, 3-D universe. That's what astronomers are talking about. However, viewed from the higher, spiritual reality, space and time do not exist and are "illusions". Therefore, the Big Bang and the Big Crunch are not occurring at the level of "All-Entity", as I call the transcendent Whole of All-That-Is. However, according to Quantum Metaphysics and many channeled sources, The Whole and its parts are One. The difference is only in the point of view. Therefore, the Whole experiences whatever its parts experience. In fact, this appears to be the "purpose" of all creation, that the Whole/All-Entity/God experiences Its own potential through experiences within Its creations. This does not mean that the root essence of The Whole changes, which we can only vaguely describe as the Union of Love, Peace, Joy, Energy, Life, etc. However, The Whole does change "internally" continuously as an expression of life. Without this constant change, "God" would be dead.
Warm Greetings!
Jo.
I think there is many universals.
quote:
Originally posted by General-Army
Is there other universes we would be able to travel to by using worm holes or something? I learned a few days ago that if you go in one direction through the universe you would eventualy come back around the other side and end up where you started, that could mean the universe is a circle. Then that could mean there are other universes next to ours that are only able to travel to using worm holes. Is this possible?
well, the idea of another dimension is the same as the idea of another universe. very complex, beause if you come up with proof of other universe (would be extremely hard to prove) would that mean that our universe is indeed not infinite? and if so is there an infinite number of other universes? the qustion was to be able to cross into other universes and safely return. being safe in the unknown is always unpredictable. getting back back would be nearly impossible. because if there was an infinite number of universes, how would you get back? what would be the rules on the planets in those universes? could one really defy gravity much more easily. if so, is ki easier to use there or not even possible. another idea is that every atom has universes much smaller than itself. and if thats true, we could be a mere speck on an atom of something much greater.
think about it.
Hello Leon,
You wrote that the idea of another dimension is the same as the idea of another universe. I would say that the idea of another dimension is the same as the idea of unlimited other universes. Think of a 2-D plane as a "universe" that may be populated with 2-D creatures a la Edwin Abbott*. For those creatures, the 2-D environment is all they know and all they can imagine. We from our 3-D point of view see, of course, that their 2-D universe is only one of an infinite number of possible other 2-D universes, because there are unlimited possible planes in 3-D space in any imaginable orientation. Do all these planes exist? Yes, they do potentially.
In the same manner we must assume that there are an unlimited number of possible 3-D universes within a 4-dimansional environment. We 3-D creatures are only aware of one 3-D universe, but there is no reason to believe that ours is the only one, since modern physics tells us that we actually live in a 4-D spacetime environment. Beyond that, quantum physics talks about even more dimensions.
Now, if another dimension means (at least) another universe, and since we know that other dimensions do exist, we know that other universes exist, right? Quantum physicists now generally accept this conclusion. This does not mean that our universe is limited. The other universes don't exist in the same 3-D space as ours and there is no "crowding" of universes in the same 3-D space. Rather, there are an unlimited number of 3-D universes in 4-D and higher-D environments. Our 3-D world is simply a subset of an n-D environment.
Yet, I hasten to say, even this scenario is still an illusion because any notion of dimensions implies that the transcendent Whole of Everything is divided. This appears true from our point of view, but it is not so from the Whole's point of view, which is the ultimate reality.
All this is hard to explain in a short forum post. If you are interested enough, Leon, you may want to visit my website or, better yet, read my book, Understanding the Grand Design: Spirituality's Inner Logic, referenced in my site.
Greetings!
Jo.
* See www.quantum-metaphysics.com / Quantum Metaphysics / Page 6
JoWo,
Hi! I'm Beth...moderator in the Religion Forums. As I posted in the main thread, I am now venturing out to see what else is posted on the AP. This is a topic that I am very interested in. I haven't read your book yet (sorry I am in the midst of writing my own!!) but I have read Paul Davies, Amit Goswami and Fred Alan Wolf. I study early Judaism and early Christianity and I think that these early movements were primarily trying to teach about what we now know as the quantum world. I have applied the priniciples of quantum mechanics to my everyday life, and I have also had many astral experiences that I can only attribute to quantum realities.
On understanding multidimensional worlds, might I suggest "Flatlands--A Love Story"??? It is about the 2-D world and it gives a good model to start understanding how different the perceptions would be to "move between" dimensions.
It will take me a while to catch up on the posts in this thread, but I look forward to exploring what has been posted. You will hear more from me soon![:)]
Peace,
Beth
Watup JoWo,
You said that the planes could be 2-D. It's a good idea but first of all, if that were true then wouldn't the size of our plane or universe be impossible? Secondly, if there are an infinite # of planes then it wouldn't matter if they were 2-D or 3-D, because if there are an infinite # of planes then there would need to be an infinite amount of space.
Hello Beth, welcome!
It is always nice to communicate with a kindred spirit [:)]. I read a few of your recent posts in the Religion Forum and I wonder whether you ever considered a "shortcut" to the early Christianity teachings. During an online discussion of Quantum Metaphysics a few years ago, someone mentioned Carpenter's book, "Dialogue on Awakening: Communication with Jesus." As with all channeled messages, you have to make up your own mind about the authenticity of the source. For me, the book's contents match perfectly my own spiritual experience and understanding, and they are an enlightened extension of Quantum Metaphysics. It is fascinating how far off contemporary church doctrines are from what I consider Christ's message.
Concerning your Flatlands note, I referenced Edwin Abbott Abbott's early 20th century book "Flatland" in my writings for an explanation of multi-dimensional reality. Using such analogies, it is possible to postulate logic relationships between dimensional levels, which provide explanations of quantum events and ultimately lead to the basic tenets of all world religions.
I am looking forward to compare more notes with you [:)].
Greetings!
Jo.
Hi Leon,
I am trying to understand your train of thought, it feels like we are not talking about the same concept. Perhaps my following comments will help.
Planes are 2-D, they not only could be 2-D. Two dimensions means two degrees of freedom to proceed. Even a warped plane has only two dimensions, because within the plane you can proceed only in two independent directions.
Why would the size of our universe be impossible? Perhaps you are using the word 'plane' for what I call 'dimensional level'. In the terminology that I was using, a plane = 2-D is on the two-dimensional level. Our 3-D space is on the three-dimensional level. Einstein's spacetime is on the four-dimensional level and I believe that even higher multi-dimensional levels exist.
There are an infinite number of 2-D planes within 3-D space. A hypothetical 2-D creature experiences only its particular 2-D world, even though this 2-D world exists in a 3-D environment from our point of view. Similarly, we experience only three space dimensions out of a potentially higher dimensional environment that we do not perceive directly.
Would you mind elaborating your comments, Leon, so that I catch on? Thanks [:)].
Jo
ok ill enlighten you on my train of thinking.
im thinking 2-D meaning 2 Dimensional. height and length. 3D meaning height length and width. so my use of 2D, the size of the universe to what you said would be impossible because it has depth.
my question. if the number of planes is infinite then the entirety of the existing planes could be a part of something much geater.
You must have misunderstood, Leon. I see no reason why a 2-D plane could not extend across the entire universe. I did say that a hypothetical creature whose life is totally restricted to a 2-D environment cannot imagine a 3-D environment. By the same token, we 3-D human creatures know life only in 3-D space and cannot imagine a 4-D environment. This whole scenario has already been used by other authors to discuss the concept of multi-dimensionality, as Beth mentioned in a preceding post.
If you would like to debate this subject further, Leon, it would be very helpful if you could read the appropriate paragraph in my website (see article "Revolution in Common Sense"). It would put our conversation on a common denominator.
Concerning your second statememt in your recent post, Leon, an infinite number of planes are of course part of something much greater (as is everything else in this world [:)])
Jo.
that's what i thought about the universes being apart of something much, just making sure.
I'll check that out. I'll return to this topic when I'm ready to continue the debate.
until then, [:)][8D]
Good talking to you, Leon [:D].
Jo
Is there other universes we would be able to travel to by using worm holes or something? I learned a few days ago that if you go in one direction through the universe you would eventualy come back around the other side and end up where you started, that could mean the universe is a circle. Then that could mean there are other universes next to ours that are only able to travel to using worm holes. Is this possible?
Quote from: Greytraveller on June 14, 2003, 18:34:06
Everett's 1957 Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) was his explanation of the Superposition of the 2 states of a photon.
His theory goes - Science cannot measure a single photon as both particle and wave. (For this example assume the photon has been measured as a particle.) Everett saw the wave aspect of that Photon as still existing. But the wave existed in a Superposition in another dimension/alternate universe) with the particle of the same photon.
So Everett did not intend to spark speculation into alternate universes, parallel worlds and many different timelines. Yet that has been the result nonetheless.
Now if this forum were on a strictly scientific website then I would not mention this but -
The idea of alternate universes/parallel worlds fits Very neatly into the concept ot the ethereal plane(s) (and astral plane(s)). Though this was undoubtedly about the farthest thing from Everett's mind and not his intention yet nonetheless one result of MWI has been to nudge the scientific and spiritual/esoteric/metaphysic communities closer together.
My interpretation is that Light (Matter) exists only in true reality as a wave. "The modern theory that explains the nature of light is wave-particle duality, described by Albert Einstein in the early 1900s, based on his work on the photoelectric effect and Planck's results. Einstein determined that the energy of a photon is proportional to its frequency."
And that's absolutely true about the energy of a photon. And, depending on when the optimum quantum decoherence occurs, based upon environmental polarity and gravity, it is "transmuted", or experienced, as a particle. The reality we experience as three dimensional reality is the most optimum quantum superposition of all quantum decoherences at any given point.
Quote from: General-Army on June 09, 2003, 16:35:41
Is there other universes we would be able to travel to by using worm holes or something? I learned a few days ago that if you go in one direction through the universe you would eventualy come back around the other side and end up where you started, that could mean the universe is a circle. Then that could mean there are other universes next to ours that are only able to travel to using worm holes. Is this possible?
People, help me out here please?
There are 2 replies to General-Army BEFORE this was posted.
thanks........ (Twilight Zone music background... do dee do dee, do dee do dee,)
To straighten one thing out: There's only one universe. The term can't be used to describe multiples.
The Sirians and other races describe these 'dimensions' as wavelengths or vibrations or spectrums. It has to do with the way atoms can function the same as light. There aren't any actual planes or dimensions - just areas of the atomic spectrum.
You can have multiple objects occupying the same space without affecting each other, as long as the objects' particles are on different frequencies. This is because the particles exist on certain wavelengths/frequencies, and these particles cannot contact particles above or below their frequency. For example, x-ray light passes through your skin because it's a higher frequency than your skin particles - the wavelengths are too different to hit each other. Radio waves also pass through your skin because its energy is too low-frequency. Anything above x-rays or below radio waves will also pass through you, because you only affect a certain range of particles. It's actually more likely for a particle to go through you than hit you.
This applies between objects. If you accelerate an object's particles to the x-ray wavelength, it would go through your skin and contact your bone. Accelerate it a little further, and it goes through your bone, only causing a bit of friction against it (some particles will hit the bone). Accelerate it further, and it goes through you without you noticing at all. It might as well not be there. It's in 'another dimension'.
This is what happens when you exit your body and go through a wall. You adjust your frequency so very few of your particles hit that wall (though you still feel some friction from a few particle collisions). Some people can't get through the wall because they haven't altered (or 'phased') their frequency correctly. We all know the other fun things phasing can do. If you phase far enough, the wall starts to become invisible because your atoms no longer react to photons in its range. You eventually find yourself in a place where that wall might as well not exist.
Our own bodies use this principal to function; we have phantom organs you'll never see on a standard anatomy chart - they overlap the normal organs and are nearly intangible. You can only feel them by touching a phantom organ against another phantom organ. (I can tell how to do this if anyone wants) This is a very nifty way to save space, though it causes problems when your energy fluctuates. If a phantom organ's frequency shifts, it causes friction against your normal organs, causing headaches and other sickness. These sicknesses are especially annoying when all the 'doctors' around you are atheists and christians who believe these organs aren't there.
Quote from: zareste on October 14, 2006, 13:39:34
Our own bodies use this principal to function; we have phantom organs you'll never see on a standard anatomy chart - they overlap the normal organs and are nearly intangible. You can only feel them by touching a phantom organ against another phantom organ. (I can tell how to do this if anyone wants)
Zareste, that's pretty cool, thanks.
For years I followed the convention that only the location between the eyes needs attention.
After reading more about energy body, chakras, etc, for the first time I'm noticing, sensing, these locations.
When feeling a pulse in the chest, I thought , nothing unusual, I feel my heart beating. Now, if I shift the attention through the body, I distinctly feel the pulse at the locations that correspond to chakras.
It seems strange to me because, where ever I move the attention, I feel the pulsing at that location, and not in the chest where the heart beat is.
Also when you mention friction or interference, occasionally I feel pressure in the forehead during meditation, and if I simply shift the attention up into the center of the head, the pressure is removed. Or if I begin at the base chakra and shift attention one by one back up, the pressure is relieved.
I'm interested in your theory about phantom organs if you feel like elaborating, as it relates to our multi-frequency, multi-dimensional existence.
Quote from: no_leaf_clover on June 09, 2003, 17:02:14
the universe is expanding in all directions at an ever-increasing rate, so that all things physical will eventually be travelling at the speed of light. scientists are still trying to figure out where the gravity is coming from that causes us to increase speed as we pull away from the center of our known universe. that's how the ideas of black matter come into being.
maybe the black matter has something to do with what is beyond us. it's definitely an interesting topic.
No. The fastest expansion was right after the Big Bang. its been slowing down steadily after that, just as we would expect.
the Intuition was that the Universe would exentually stop its expansion and then contract back upon itself so as to produce another stupendous Big Bang and start the process over again. You see, this would solve the problem of Creation as we could simply exert the existence of a reoccurring cycle.
but Science needed 'proof' that is enough mass to suppose the Universe could exert enough central gravitational force to hold back a slow but never ending drift outward. With the discovery of the Quark Particle and an estimate of its quantity, now they have more than enough Mass to figure in for the Universes Contraction.
But if we believe, as you, that the Universe is ever expanding, then we need to wonder where the Big Bang came from. yes, some pocket of gravity somewhere. But it is easier to suppose, as the Ancient Brahmins had, that the Universe expands and contracts to where it explodes again outward only to expand and contract and explode again and agaion and again.
Quote from: Leo Volont on October 21, 2006, 03:01:52
But if we believe, as you, that the Universe is ever expanding, then we need to wonder where the Big Bang came from. yes, some pocket of gravity somewhere. But it is easier to suppose, as the Ancient Brahmins had, that the Universe expands and contracts to where it explodes again outward only to expand and contract and explode again and agaion and again.
Yes , this is the idea I've been most comfortable with, cycles of creation and desolution, to include desolution and creation cycles of entire creation systems.
Some interesting current theories based on attempts to measure relative speeds between galaxies
Interesting because data from observations is still being interpretated and the theories are still morphing.
Kinda like, one day coffe is bad for you, and the next day, coffee is good for you. :-)
one of the google results from "universe expanding faster"
From http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/accelerating.html
"The notion of the expanding universe is related to a mathematical quantity Einstein devised called the "cosmological constant." He eventually discarded it, deciding it was a mistake. If the universe is accelerating, however, it means that Einstein's cosmological constant was correct."
From Zareste,
QuoteTo straighten one thing out: There's only one universe. The term can't be used to describe multiples.
I agree with your semantics relating to the use of the word 'Universe' and what it denotes. But for the sake of a simple conversation here, and not to confuse people, we continue to express the concept of this Universe being the one we currently 'occupy'. So once again we humans think we knew it all when we created such a word for the name.
No Leaf,
I saw from my direct experience of the Multiverse that each 'universe' is created from the touching of other bubbleverses. The touch releases enough energy for a 'big bang' and so we can see that the creative process is alive and well in the bigger pictures. I actually liken it to how we humans conceive a baby, in a way. So, I am wondering if each 'universe' is a being in it's own right so that what christians call god is really only the god-being-awareness of this universe we are in and that we are a part of.
Wow, June 2003. Tayesin, I saw where you addressed me in your post but didn't see any of my posts along the recent ones, then saw the one in Voyager's quote. I could point to that and give you another great example of the universal expanding and creating process, on a much smaller physical (personal) level. My own view of the entire "universe" (I agree with the semantic issue and simply mean "everything manifest anywhere") is a now giant fractal. Who knows where it begins or ends, going either bigger or smaller? There are probably even different scales of life all embedded.
Quantum physics having to be determind by probabilities comes to mind, as an asymmetry in these tiny worlds that conscious life may explain. Even the time scale of electron oscillations around the atom, are to our second as our second is to the age of the rest of the entire universe as we currently estimate it.
Check out this Mandelbrot fractal, particularly the first and last renderings. Zooming in, you notice different moving forms, until you ultimately come back to a tiny manifestation of the whole original design again, except this time surrounded by all the forms from the bigger fractal. (The repetition of the over-all form happens more than once, it's just that the last one strikes me as particularly beautiful.)
(http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/3876/magnificationbluejd3.jpg)
I like to think of the smaller fractals as having themselves magnificently and divinely robed by what surrounds them on all the different size scales.
I love fractals.
Yes there are countless alternate universes out there, making up all existence. During a profound near death experience, I found myself accelerating almost to the point of infinity, some sort of a force field prevented me from going faster if one can use this term.
What I saw was a sort of Russian doll like reality, greater universes contained within ever greater universes. and the same for smaller universes
On exiting our universe it became an almost infinite plane with at first no horizon and then a huge sphere geeting smaller and smaller until our universe became just a minute dark speck in the vast white light that is the breath of God
Alan
Hi No Leaf.. didn't know you were still here, lol
Yes the fractal is an interesting thing, but so far we create them with computers. Much of what we see in the world around us seems to indicate fractal geometry, with the exception that when dissecting the leaf from a plant showing fractals in its design, we do not see the self-replicating geometry at smaller and smaller resolutions. So I am not sure what to make of that as yet. It's interesting though, and the images are beautiful.
Alan Wrote:QuoteWhat I saw was a sort of Russian doll like reality, greater universes contained within ever greater universes. and the same for smaller universes
On exiting our universe it became an almost infinite plane with at first no horizon and then a huge sphere geeting smaller and smaller until our universe became just a minute dark speck in the vast white light that is the breath of God
Well said Alan. I had similar experiences outside this universe where there were gazillions more universes, and the further 'up' into higher awareness layers I went the smaller the whole appeared to me, until all the universes appeared like sea-foam. After this things got a little harder to perceive clearly, but I did understand that it all continues much like the Russian Doll description you offered, so that at each layer you exit one skin to find yourself within an other, and so it continued, like boxes within ever-larger boxes.
Zarest
QuoteTo straighten one thing out: There's only one universe. The term can't be used to describe multiples.
Now how can you make a statement like that as if it were a fact?. You limit yourself to your finite mind , just like we all do.
If you mean the term universe is just a name we give for our particular universe OK. What about cosmos or the all abrasive word "existence" Does this word limit us to just our universe or does it implicate a greater reality out there
Like Tayesin I know, I do not speculate there are countless other universes out there in "existence", some coming into being in one blindingly brief moment and others existing for almost eternity Physics backs this up
Alan