The Astral Pulse

Metaphysics => Welcome to Quantum Physics! => Topic started by: Adkha on April 05, 2004, 08:11:59

Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Adkha on April 05, 2004, 08:11:59
I think quantum metaphysics tells us that everything is connected with everything. It tells us that humans have limited thus physical  minds.

I have never had an OBE so I cant tell for sure that our mind extends beyond the physical....but I believe the manys stories I have read...

A question: How does the human mind stands in the whole picture of Quantum metaphysics??
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Adkha on April 06, 2004, 02:13:14


I think I wasn't really clear....I mean...with our physical minds(the whole physical sensing system;eyes, ears etc.) we cant observe what is beyond the physical. But as many forum visiters and Robert Bruce claims...our mind can project itself into a higher body/mind so we actually CAN observe beyond the physical.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Ryu-Kanjin on April 10, 2004, 21:41:44
Yes our physical minds are very limited but its when we reach the point when we can tap into the collective conchese(sp) of humanity is when we get the full vew
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Nick on April 17, 2004, 12:47:10
Thank you for this topic JoWo. I agree with your observations and also would recommend to everyone your excellent book. I did post a review on it in June: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4930  as I found it to be an exceptional work. Further, I have ordered a second copy, as my first has found its way over to some friends.

(By the way, this topic has been made a 'sticky' so the information you presented above remains more readily available.)


All the best,
Nick
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on April 20, 2004, 20:18:53
Thank you, Nick,

How can we get more forum members interested in the most dramatic issue of our time? How can we get the point across that each one of us must gain a better understanding of spirituality in order to avoid the demise of humankind?  Quantum Metaphysics addresses this issue head on and provides the answers.  

I wrote the book "Understanding the Grand Design, Spiritual Reality's Inner Logic" to help individuals "see the light" and thus empowering them to help themselves to create a brighter future for themselves and simultaneously for humankind.  The book is written so that it can be understood without much prior schooling.

Yet, there was only a meager response when I initiated this topic aimed at the most important issue of our time.  What does it take to make people aware that human civilization is rapidly getting more 'uncivilized' with a clear danger of self-destruction?  Should not each individual be eager to embrace an offered opportunity to participate in saving our future?

This is what "Understanding the Grand Design" is all about, because once you see the "big picture", you know how to get out of this mess.  And once enough people see it, they form a "movement" away from impending disaster. You can make the difference in swinging the majority.  Remember how just a few individual Florida votes swung the pendulum of the United States' destiny.  This time, the stakes are even greater, much greater.  This time we vote with our minds, entering our votes miraculously and automatically into the all-pervasive super-computer of spiritual reality, as described in my book.

I'll make it easy for you.  Send me an e-mail to jo@quantum-metaphysics.com and I'll send you a copy of "Understanding the Grand Design" free of charge.  In return, you must promise to read the book and discuss it here in this forum.  I'll donate seven books, first come first serve.  All you have to do is to send me your name, forum member name, and your mailing address, together with your promise to read the book and participate in its discussion.

So, let us focus on what matters most in our times, let's understand how we form our own destiny and how we participate in forming humanity's destiny.  Then let us do what it takes to create the future we want.  Let's do this together and experience how our new beliefs can move mountains.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mustang on May 10, 2004, 04:30:58
Jo Wolf are you related to the physicist and science writer Fred Alan Wolf?

Also what about all the particle physicists who are opposed to a holistic/mystical interpretation of QM such as Feynman, Gell-Mann, Weinberg etc? A case of not seeing the wood for the trees and perhaps mistaking personal materialist philosophy for scientific evidence?
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on May 11, 2004, 08:05:11
Hello mustang,

No, I am not related to Fred Alan Wolf.  
About the particle physicists who do not accept a holistic point of view, Max Planck, the famous Nobel Prize winner in physics said: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: volcomstone on May 13, 2004, 12:19:48
first off Im not sure if this belongs in philosophy or here. I sorta wander

I've become torn between the decision to ask for healing, for myself, and for others.  I don't know if its selfish or not. I don't know if it's even possible for someone else to heal another completly.
im sure you can push them on the right path to recovery..
I know you can heal yourself, but it's harder to do.

"Is it selfish to ask for help"?
and "is there even something known as "giving" (ie, getting NOTHING, in return"

I don't see how its possible to not get something in return, which comes to balance, and how we will continue to suffer without a balance.  

Which brings me to another point, is it better for ONE or MANY to balance it out.  Everyone wants to achieve greatness, but how is it moral for the one to eliminate "pain" and "suffering"? especially if you believe that each reality is tailored to its spirit.

but, how could anyone want suffering? does there HAVE to be pain?  
yin and yang is cool and all, but why must there be an opposite?  

is the whole greaer than the sum of the parts? would our lives be as just as fulfilled if we never experience pain? suffereing?
would the sweet taste so good if there was no bitter? would we be truly happy if we where never sad?

and who dictates the administering of these things? ourselves?
how constant heaven would be, without pain, without emotion.
do the gods "destroy" themselves for "pleasure"?  self-sacrifice as a path to perfection? do we reside on earth , simply to pass eternity? to live in the moment?

or to attempt harmony? to create more gods? how does it all work out?is it just a coincidence that EVIL is LIVE backwards?

as I sit here staring blankly at the screen, I wonder how many times Ive done this before, and infinite other questions flood my mind. how can I never find the answers if the questions cannot be asked?
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on May 13, 2004, 20:55:23
Hello volcomstone,

There must be better sites in the Astral Forum that deal with healing.  Perhaps you ask one of the forum moderators.  It also depends on what kind of healing you need.  You may want to use private e-mail.  In any case, I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with asking for help if you feel the need for it.  'No man is and island', and we all need help sometime in our lives.  Don't worry about being selfish, you may do more harm, or you may inconvenience others more, if you don't get needed help.  And yes, many people will be glad to give help without expecting anything in return.  They understand that unselfish giving enriches their heart.  

You mentioned 'balance', volcomstone, and I assume that you mean compensation for good deeds.  In the end, everything balances out automatically.  If you feel the urge, you can speed up the balancing by helping others when the occasion arises.

I don't understand your next paragraph that starts with "Which brings me to another point".  Could you please elaborate?  The rest of your post opens up deep questions that require many pages to be answered adequately.  I have explained these matters in my book "Understanding the Grand Design", but I don't want to sound like I am trying to peddle it to you.

I send you my best wishes, volcomstone, and I hope that you put away your qualms about getting help.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mactombs on May 13, 2004, 22:11:04
quote:
Also what about all the particle physicists who are opposed to a holistic/mystical interpretation of QM such as Feynman, Gell-Mann, Weinberg etc?


Richard Feynman is great. I admire him, and his book "Adventures of a Curious Character" is one of my all-time favorite books. "Ideas and Opinions" by Einstein is great, too, with good moral lessons. Another physicist, Lederman ("The God Particle") would also probably disagree completely with a holistic model of quantum physics.

Nevertheless, science and beliefs are two different things. Many scientists prefer to believe one thing, but the reason they are good scientists is because they know the difference between their beliefs and science. Science changes, self-corrects. The Latin phrase "Ad-hominim" (to the man) is used as an example of a bad criticm of an idea just because it came from a certain person. All ideas are equal, no matter who came up with them.

So to say, well, "Feynman the great physicist and all-around great man, and Carl Sagan, so on and so forth would completely disagree with quantum metaphysics" is not actually a critique of metaphysics. It's a cop-out.

Unfortunately, very few people (including myself) posess the mathematical skills to understand current quantum theory. As such, it's easy to defer to someone's opinion who does understand it.(But as Niels Bohr said, "Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it.") As a medium, I'd suggest reading accessible books such as John Gribbin's "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat".

I haven't read "Understanding the Grand Design: Spiritual Reality's Hidden Logic", so I can't say how it compares. But I'd submit that it probably isn't all that far-fetched. Consider the back to "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat" (and it's in the Science section):

"It is so shocking that Einstein could not bring himself to accept it. It is so important that it provides the fundamental underpinning of all modern sciences ... Now John Gribbin tells the complete story of quantum mechanics, a truth far stranger than any fiction. He takes us step-by-step into an ever more bizarre and fascinating place -- requiring only that we approach it with an open mind ... "

I agree with JoWo, at least as far as the importance of learning about quantum mechanics. You can't really understand today's world without it. The best way to form an opinion is to read more about it, rather than speculate on the opinions of others.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mustang on May 17, 2004, 03:55:26
mactombs writes
quote:
I agree with JoWo, at least as far as the importance of learning about quantum mechanics. You can't really understand today's world without it. The best way to form an opinion is to read more about it, rather than speculate on the opinions of others.

QM (or a holistic interpretation of it) may help us make sense and give us a sane and transcendent view of the universe and our role in it, but it is not at all necessary. It is an additional tool to our understanding of ourselves and the unity and interconnectedness of all things, and the essential mystery and value of all life. But it is not necessary to know anything at all about QM to come to a mystical/holistic understanding of life and its implications to our lives.

Let me put it this way:
What did Siddhartha know about QM, or Christ, or the writers of the Vedas, or the Siberian shamans, or Black Elk and Rolling Thunder and the other Native American medicine men whose traditional knowledge and wisdom they learned from, or Socrates, Plato and Heraclitus, or the Hebrew Zaddiks, Wordsworth, William Blake etc etc?

QM tells us that the mystics, shamans etc intuitively knew the workings of the universe, its essential unity and the illusory nature of seeming permanence and solidity in outward things and appearances, as well as understanding the true nature of time and space, and their interconnectivity etc. They knew themselves and so understood the universe as a consequence, and they understood it better than even the brightest particle physicists who share their view of the universe including such giants as Niels Bohr and David Bohm. It doesn't matter that they had never heard of an electron or an Eigen Function, or Bell's Inequality Theorem etc, it doesn't matter - it is all extraneous. More importantly such mystics, poets and shamans understood in their heart of hearts the unity and beauty and compassion written into the very structure of life and the universe and LIVED ACCORDINGLY. In other words they knew what lies behind QM intuitively. QM offers scientific evidence of the truth of "pure mysticism" uncluttered by superstition, not the other way around.

Imagine a scenario where David Bohm (and anyone sympathetic to a holistic interpretation of QM must read his classic Wholeness and The Implicate Order) had a conversation with a genuine mystic from the 10th century, everything that Bohm would say about a hologram-universe in language understandable to the mystic would be greeted by the mystic with approval and understanding, along the lines of "Yes I know all this", even though the mystic would never have heard of a hologram and QM. And better to be in the mystic's position then Bohm's, by Bohm's own admission, simply because the mystic is living what he knows whereas with Bohm his knowledge is only theoretical and not a practical knowing and living. Surely this recognition on Bohm's part (a genuinely humble and good man, but not a free man), the contrast between theoretical knowledge and its practical applications in his own life, is what probably contributed to his deep depressions in his twilight years.

In closing, QM, like parapsychology, and the natural sciences (the staggering, enormous complexities of all living organisms in every way and at every level from DNA and cellular functioning to organs and bodily systems, to ecosystems, and the biosphere as a whole); reveals an obvious hidden and Divine Hand in the workings of nature and the universe, obvious to any open-minded person, but the last people for the most part to see this, ironically enough, are the scientists themselves. Yet all of this is an adjunct (albeit important in its way) to a practical and pragmatic self-knowing and none of the scientific knowledge we garner can replace or substitute for this self-knowing.

For our scientific knowledge of itself (and by this I mean a holistic interpretation of our scientific data) cannot ever on its own make us better and wiser people, and by implication the world a better place. Only following the wise dictum to "Know Thyself" can do that.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mactombs on May 17, 2004, 15:11:48
quote:
QM (or a holistic interpretation of it) may help us make sense and give us a sane and transcendent view of the universe and our role in it, but it is not at all necessary. It is an additional tool to our understanding of ourselves and the unity and interconnectedness of all things, and the essential mystery and value of all life. But it is not necessary to know anything at all about QM to come to a mystical/holistic understanding of life and its implications to our lives.


This is not what I meant. From my point of view, what I mean by "you can't really understand today's world without understanding QM" is materialistic. Things such as lasers, microchips, etc. and scientific view.

quote:
QM tells us that the mystics, shamans etc intuitively knew the workings of the universe, its essential unity and the illusory nature of seeming permanence and solidity in outward things and appearances, as well as understanding the true nature of time and space, and their interconnectivity etc. They knew themselves and so understood the universe as a consequence, and they understood it better than even the brightest particle physicists who share their view of the universe including such giants as Niels Bohr and David Bohm.


I disagree. Mystics', shamans' etc. views of the universe have never understood the universe better than the brightest particle physicist's, they have simply understood in differently. What they have understood most is themselves. I believe to know something is given equally to all, but to describe it in language or mathematics or mortal terms is better done by some than by others. And not everyone speaks the same language.

Another point is the usage of QM. You use it as a broad definition of the workings of the universe. QM is quite different than this mystical interpretation. What it intends to be is a description by which means one might use it as a tool. It's akin to arguing that mystics intuitively knew algerbra. I think my disagreement comes mainly in your definition of QM.

quote:
In closing, QM, like parapsychology, and the natural sciences (the staggering, enormous complexities of all living organisms in every way and at every level from DNA and cellular functioning to organs and bodily systems, to ecosystems, and the biosphere as a whole); reveals an obvious hidden and Divine Hand in the workings of nature and the universe, obvious to any open-minded person, but the last people for the most part to see this, ironically enough, are the scientists themselves. Yet all of this is an adjunct (albeit important in its way) to a practical and pragmatic self-knowing and none of the scientific knowledge we garner can replace or substitute for this self-knowing.


Again, I disagree. Show one man from one background and belief system one thing and he will see something different than another. It is of frustration that some will say the depictions of the universe by science reveal an obvious Divine Hand. It is not obvious to all, and to claim that those for whom it is not obvious are short-sighted is itself a short-sighted view. Like all short-sighted views, it prefers to stick to its own and label those different errant and short of the truth, rather than to seek empathy for the differed view, and reconcile them.

Perhaps the universe is merely infinity experienced in infinite different ways?

Much here depends on your interpretation of both science and the Divine Hand.

quote:
For our scientific knowledge of itself (and by this I mean a holistic interpretation of our scientific data) cannot ever on its own make us better and wiser people, and by implication the world a better place. Only following the wise dictum to "Know Thyself" can do that.


I agree. No material thing can make us better or wiser. Science, like all material things, has no inherent good nor evil (if in a universal light these are even valid terms). We are responsible for our interaction with the universe and how it reflects in us.

I think that I agree with what you have to say as a whole, just not in all the details.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on May 18, 2004, 20:11:32
Hello matcombs,

Referring to your 14 May post, I believe that you misunderstood my prior posts.  I was talking about quantum-metaphysics, not quantum mechanics.  I was emphasizing the urgent need to understand spiritual reality in order to halt humankind's slide toward anarchy. Since spiritual reality is still denied by many scientists, quantum-metaphysics provides a desirable means to reverse this trend.

Hello mustang,

Mactombs' quote at the beginning of your 17 May post may misinterpret my own opinion.  I agree with you that knowledge of quantum mechanics is not necessary for understanding spiritual reality.  However, in today's society, where scientific opinion is still biased against a holistic world-view, it is advantageous to understand the intimate relationship between modern physics and spiritual reality.  This is the purpose of what I call "quantum-metaphysics", described in my website www.quantum-metahysics.com and in my book "Understanding the Grand Design, Spiritual reality's Inner Logic".

Greetings!
Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mactombs on May 19, 2004, 11:09:48
quote:
I was emphasizing the urgent need to understand spiritual reality in order to halt humankind's slide toward anarchy. Since spiritual reality is still denied by many scientists, quantum-metaphysics provides a desirable means to reverse this trend.


I can't see how you can divorce quantum mechanics from quantum- metaphysics so easily, unless you really mean "metaphysics", or just plain "spiritual theory". Spiritual reality is not denied by scientists, it simply does not exist in science. Science is an explanation (a language) of reality in clear and certain terms, an attempt at pure objectivity. Spirituality is the exact opposite, and it means most when it has personal meaning, thereby being entirely subjective. Certainly both may coexist, but blend and become both?

Secondly, given that a spiritual side does exist, and that all of humanity does have a Higher aspect to each and every individual, what makes you so certain that a cataclysmic slide into anarchy is even in the deeper nature of humanity? Or that on a universal level, such an event is "evil" or even undesirable?

Also, isn't the spiritual path embarked on by the individual, and a path of personal discovery? Seeing the deeply intimate nature of spirituality, I don't see how that can be so broadly defined into a "new science".

quote:
However, in today's society, where scientific opinion is still biased against a holistic world-view...


Considering the objective stance of science, I would think that this is merely your subjective view of science. I see no such bias.

quote:
...it is advantageous to understand the intimate relationship between modern physics and spiritual reality


Here I agree to a point. It is advantageous to understand science. It is advantageous to understand spirituality. The relationship between the two, however, I believe is entirely subjective, and best left to the explorations of the individual on their own path. This doesn't mean, however, that no one would benefit from reading your book. I'm sure it may help in the forming of personal view of that relationship.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on May 20, 2004, 13:38:08
mactombs,

Apparently, you have some catching up to do.  I suggest that you get better informed about this forum.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mactombs on May 21, 2004, 11:04:23
I don't quite understand what you mean to get better informed about this forum. I also think you are misinterpreting my remarks as being purely adversarial. Nevertheless, I agree that I might be more constructive being better informed about your side of the topic. I'll try to get my hands on a copy of your book and go from there.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: drinsomno on May 22, 2004, 23:32:35
hello everyone... greetings.

well jowo i am in the process of getting your book at the moment.  

i hope the book will clear some things up for me i am good with my quantum physics but i never looked into metaphysics you have inspired me to do so.
i will be watching this to see where it goes well toodles for now
[:)][:D][8D]
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mustang on May 24, 2004, 03:48:46
mactombs writes
quote:
Considering the objective stance of science, I would think that this is merely your subjective view of science. I see no such bias.

This is inadvertently very funny, science is objective like politics is honest. If you had an inkling of the history of science and what goes on in science you would know that science is anything but objective. I suggest you start with Thomas Kuhn's classic THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTION, and then come talk on the forum about the so-called objectivity of science. Science is carried out by scientists (who are often very dim-witted despite what you and others may think), who are human beings and therefore a fortiori subjective in their conclusions and findings.

Also science itself gives evidence that science is anything but objective, in fact Quantum Mechanics itself gives more evidence of this than any other scientific discipline! Maybe as Wolf suggests, mactombs - you familiarise yourself with the QM forum here, and QM itself, before you talk about objectivity in science. In QM there is the Observer Effect remember? - associated with the Copenhagen Interpretation of the Quantum Paradox, extended by Eugene Wigner and others; and later Evan Walker's Quantum Tunnelling; all of which translates to a subjective universe!! There are lots of problems here (Einstein was understandably upset over all this and didn't accept such implications, hence the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen model). But if you knew so much about QM mactombs, you would know that this is one of its most startling findings; that the observer is not separate from that which he observes - so much for objectivity!

Also in perception, one perceives with the mind/brain first and foremost; not the eye, ear, skin, nose, tongue ie the senses, but with the mind/brain's interpretation of sensory data; which is not objective but dependent on numerous subjective factors including mental conditioning, emotional states, psychological expectations, physical health etc. The evidence for this is not only in biophysics and neuroscience but in practical spheres like hypnosis. Also language, where different concepts in language translate to a different perception of the world - but in our increasingly homogenised society this is increasingly no longer the case. Also regarding the ingestion of psychotropic drugs altering human perceptions reveals that an altering of brain chemistry affects and alters our perceptions considerably. There are numerous other examples, but I would be going on forever if I fleshed all of this out here. One may object that this has nothing to do with objectivity in terms of scientific data, but the point I am making is that our perception of the world is not completley objective, but at least partially subjective - and this very much extends to scientists who themselves are only human.

Scientists pass off philosophical materialism for science and don't even know it. Philosophical materialism and scientism (know what that is without doing a google for the word?) is so deep-rooted and pervasive in the scientific community, that it is second nature. Scientists are constantly fitting round pegs (scientific data) into square holes (scientific materialism) and calling it "objective findings".

Scientists chase after the money like most everyone, they have huge egos and are often most interested in securing tenure (which means pleasing your professors often at the expense of scientific truth) and getting grant money and research money (which means pleasing some giant multinational Bio-Tech or government department or both). In order to get a paper published in the relevant journal one needs to get past peer-review (and if the people sitting on peer review are nitwits who are biased against anything but conventional and orthodox explanations [and they almost always are] and your paper runs against the grain, you can forget about publication no matter how important or groundbreaking your paper may be).

If science is objective please explain the very hostile and often irrational disputes among socio-biologists and naturalists re the mechanisms of  neo-Darwinian evolution. The arguments between paleontologists and biologists re extinction of species, and among biologists and paleontologists themselves in this respect is heated to put it mildly. Neurologists are divided between the monists and dualists regarding the mind/brain controversy (a clue - if you are partial to astral travel and remote viewing you are a dualist).

Any geologist or astronomer who spoke of catostrophism in the earth's past (repeated cataclysms and upheavals in the earth's natural history) were ridiculed and dismissed, that is until about 25 years ago and since when neo-Catastrophism is now accepted as the norm.

Go talk on the objectivity of science to Dean Kenyon (a prominent microbiologist fired from San Fransisco State for going against the materialist grain on the Origin of Life aka OOL controversy even though his conclusions were based entirely on the scientific data, not on any religious agenda, he was re-instated after legal action was threatened; Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ who pioneered the work on remote viewing at Stanford Research Institute and the (unscientific) abuse they received from the scientific establishment; Thomas Lee, an archaeologist fired for merely pointing out that arrow points in North America go back further than we think (and therefore human habitation in N America).Virginia Steen-McIntyre lost her job with the US Geological survey for a similar reason.

What about Rupert Sheldrake, the biologist whose anti-materialist and unconventional but ground-breaking theory of formative causation (morphic resonance/morphic fields) and the mistreatment and abuse and ridicule he has faced from the scientific establishment, to this day. Nature called for his groundbreaking work A NEW SCIENCE OF LIFE to be burnt...in 1981!

He is by no means alone, but a typical example of any scientist who dares to go against the scientific establishment and the conservative reductionist mindset it embraces.

There are so many examples - the Wright Brothers were being called frauds by Scientific American a full 5 years after their inaugural flight from Kitty Hawk and were hounded out of America and were forced to go to France for funding. Thomas Edison was repeatedly called a fraud and a liar by scientists themselves. So many other pioneers and geniuses in science were called the same thing, and still are. I could go on and on with so many other examples. It is all unfortunately much the norm.

In the controversy on genetic engineering, do you think it is objective? There is a lot of money involved, a lot of careers and a lot of reputations. GMOs are a disaster and the scientists who lie through their teeth saying it is safe are working for the Monsantos and Duponts and Novistos (giant Bio-Tech companies) who have invested millions of dollars into transgenics or they are working for the government departments who these Bio-Techs control and are very much in bed with; or they are just very stupid thinking you can mess with nature and not pay a heavy price. We know so little about genetics that we have no idea what the costs of GMOs is going to be long-term. There is also what is called subjective validation - scientists, being people, will see what they want to see and disregard the rest. One thing is certain, it is a huge mistake. So what objectivity?

In the medical sciences it is even worse and probably worst of all. Medical science is completely controlled by Bio-Techs and Pharmaceuticals. The medical journals are often just advertising for Glaxo Smithkline, Eli Lilly, Pfizer, Abbot Labs, Merck, Bristol-Myers Sqibb etc. Fraud in medical trials and studies is routine. I'm not going to trust the scientists (full-time PR bullshitters) working for such companies to be telling the truth about the supposed safety and efficacy of their drugs. The editors and those doing peer review for med journals are often very buddy-buddy with senior management in the Pharma industry. Medical science is the most corrupt and damaging of all the sciences, a huge multi-billion dollar a year industry, where all those "objective" scientists are driving round in BMW's and getting big share options in greedy rapacious Pharmaceuticals concerned only with the bottom line, not any body's health I promise you.

Objective, my butt; rapacious and ruthless and worse - killers.  Know how many people die from iatrogenic (look it up) murder every year? In South Africa it is very bad, where largely the poor serve as guinea pigs for the Pharmas in their experiments in medical incompetence, stupidity and murder (yes murder) in serving the interests of the shareholders and management at Glaxo and the rest. Newsflash - doctors are just clueless drug salesmen. People have been killed in their tens of thousands and continue to be so; being killed by "Medical Science" and the media who blindly do their advertising. I am barely hinting at something here but am not going to come out and say it clearly and loudly, because this is not the thread for it and I don't want to thread-jack too much.

I will say this though - there is a fiasco and the mother of all blunders going on in medical science unlike anything seen before in its history (including the Thalidomide horrors, Swine Flu vaccine idiocy - a deadly vaccine that killed and maimed thousands developed to prevent the spread of a disease that turned out not to exist - swine flu - all this in 1976 in the US!; and the use of arsenic and mercury as a "tonic" by the medical profession to "cure" syphilis and scurvy and even mercury poisoning!! in the not too distant past) and because of censorship and special interests hardly anybody knows what is going on, and South Africa and its people are paying the heaviest price for it.

People tend to get their info on science and medical science from clueless scientifically illiterate journalists who don't know anything about science (the blind leading the blind). I have met journalists writing about Aids who naturally can't tell me what a retrovirus is or what Koch's Postulates are (the rules for infectious diseases) or anything basic about pathology and pharmacology. Imagine taking your car to a mechanic and telling him that you think you've got something wrong with your carbeurattor and the mecahnic replies "what's a carbeurattor?" You would drive your car straight out of there, right? But when it comes to much of the scientific data, the general public are getting their info (spin really) mainly from journalists, the vast majority of whom don't have a clue about what they are writing. This is something of an open secret in the scientific community, of which the general public is largely ignorant.

As far as parapsychology goes - here because science is ruled by scientific materialism ( more than 70% of scientists who are members of the most prestigious organisation of scientists in the world - the US National Academy of Sciences [NAS] - in a recent survey reported themselves to be atheists) - those doing research in this area and their findings in this field are always subject to routine abuse, ridicule and ad hominem attacks and completely unsubstantiated accusations of fraud and deception. The vast majority of scientists refuse to even look at the data on telepathy, psychokinesis, remote viewing etc and simply dismiss it on a priori grounds. They have to, otherwise they would be opening up a Pandora's Box and their whole world-view will come crashing down. They would be forced to re-evaluate everything that they think they know, they would be subject to a mental breakdown!

On a previous post on this astralpulse forum, I have briefly made mention of Brian Inglis, namely his writings on parapsychology and the 'New Inquisition' it is subject to. See his THE HIDDEN POWER.

Scientists, being human, are as subject to cognitive dissonance as everybody else and thus are anything but objective. Know something about Cognitive Dissonance (Festinger's Syndrome) and you know objectivity in science or in human affairs in general can only be a pipe dream. Remember science is practised by human beings and human psychology and sociology are thus integral to scientific affairs.

Hope there are people out there who actually bother to read this and this post does not just go out into the cyber-ether.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mactombs on May 24, 2004, 11:50:13
Mustang, you can be sure that at least I have read your post. I've been wondering about the "other side" of science (not much about it out there), so I will be reading through your post more than once. I've heard arguments like yours before, just without any details or specifics, so this is something of a boon for me (although unfortunately your response is a bit angry-slanted).

I suppose I might have come across quite naive to say "the objective stance of science", on the other hand, as I understand it, this is what science strives to be (even if it's not possible).

I'm also well aware of the Observer Effect, and definitely aware of the politics in science.

Maybe I was naive to call science objective. (Oh the difference between an ideal and a reality!)

This also says something about the psychology of belief in science. Just like you mention about Einstein ...

Anyway, perhaps I will have more to say after I have digested your post.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: clandestino on May 26, 2004, 03:46:16
Hi Mustang !

Science is objective by definition ! This cannot be debated. I do agree though that the process of scientific exploration often appears very subjective, as you have pointed out above.

Just wanted to raise a few points re. your post (which was pretty informative.)

quote:
that the observer is not separate from that which he observes - so much for objectivity!

The crux of quantum mechanics....as deduced by scientists. However, the laws of sub-particle physics are not obeyed in our day to day living. Only quantum physics posits that the observer affects the observed....no other line of science backs this up.

I'm not trying to denigrate quantum physics here...all I'm saying is that QM is not representative of science as a whole. It is merely a branch of science. As such, it shouldn't be used to suggest that objectivity in science is a fallacy !

quote:
If science is objective please explain the very hostile and often irrational disputes among socio-biologists and naturalists re the mechanisms of neo-Darwinian evolution.


Well, subjectivity becomes objectivity when the majority of people agree with it ! This, IMO, is the problem with these terms. Science has always worked along simple lines.....come up with an idea, prove that it is correct to other people, apply that idea in innovative practice. You mentioned the Wright brothers who were often ridiculed, yet this is a perfect example of how science works...Once that plane was up in the air, science was re-written. The question of subjectivity & objectivity is not relevant - the Wright brothers demonstrated that they were right and the scientists were wrong.

Kind regards,
Mark
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on May 26, 2004, 14:24:11
Hello Mustang,

Thank you for your very informative post about "scientific objectivity".  The very concept of objectivity pre-assumes that a reality of objects exists outside and independent of the human mind.  Yet, this basic belief is being contested by quantum physics.  True, other scientific branches have not followed yet, however it is a scientific axiom that a single proven contradiction to a prevailing assumption requires a revision of that assumption.

Collaborating your many examples of lacking objectivity in science is a postscript in Michael Crichton's book "Travels", where he describes many cases of scientific prejudice. For instance, geology experts rejected Alfred Wegener's theory of continental drift for forty years until it was finally accepted.  Also, hypnotism was discredited for more than two hundred years.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mustang on May 28, 2004, 06:40:35
Hello everybody

Firstly mactombs,

Thanks for your response. Sorry if you thought my anger in my post was directed at you, it wasn't but at the "New Inquisition" that call themselves scientists. I'm just trying to let people here know that they should not be so trusting of an authority ruled by dogma, careerism and in some cases, profiteering; and that hides behind obfuscatory jargon and inspeak that nobody understands (often not the scientists themselves) in order to intimidate and impress the layman. When you look behind the clever jargon, there is often nothing there - all smoke and mirrors like the Wizard of Oz. In other words a lot of naked emperors.

clandestino writes:
quote:
Science is objective by definition ! This cannot be debated. I do agree though that the process of scientific exploration often appears very subjective, as you have pointed out above.


When I wrote above about science not being objective, I really meant what scientists often pass off for science, namely scientism and materialism and wishful thinking etc, not science per se. clandestino is correct in pointing out my improper use of the word "science", I should have written "scientists" for "science". Although I do think my meaning was clear in the context of what I wrote. Science is wonderful, unfortunately it is not always practised by scientists themselves esp in medicine where the ethics of mafia gangsters (although this is not quite fair on the mafia) is the norm. Remember science does not occur in a vaccuum, it is not given to us complete by the gods themselves or omniscient aliens but all too fallible human beings who are not in any way removed from their cultural and sociological background and the conditioning that it represents.

Wolf, thanks for your response. I am aware of the hostility that Wegener received, also the tragic Anton Mesmer and his successors re hypnotism. Mesmer of course gave his name to mesmerism. The paranormal phenomena often associated with hypnotism (eg telepathy, community of sensation, remote viewing/clairvoyance) though is still not accepted by the mainstream obviously.

Actually there are so many Wegeners and Mesmers out there today, facing ridicule, the loss of funding, blackballed and censored by the scientific journals and mass media and even risk their jobs for daring to contradict and contest the status quo. Things are actually far worse than they have ever been in this regard.

Btw when I write "New Inquistion" I am in no way exaggerating, in Medical Science this is truly and terribly the case. They are killing people for profit and the protection of tens of thousands of careers, and they call what they do life-saving! And they probably believe it too. Coton Mather and his fellow witch-hunters had nothing on the US National Institute of Health, the FDA and their fawning sheep around the world, since thanks to the moron media they have more power and influence than a Thomas de Torquemada could have even dreamed possible. He didn't have a fawning CNN, BBC, Newsweek and Time etc to sell his Inquisition to all corners of the globe.

The 3 blind mice -
1 Government departments, UN, NGOs: NIH, FDA and their ilk around the world, WHO, UNICEF, Health GAP, Medecins Sans Frontieres aka Doctors without Brains etc etc  
2 corporate thugs -the Bio-Techs and Pharmaceuticals
3 the media

Let me repeat, I am only hinting at something here. Something far more terrible than any of you can even begin to imagine is going on,  a FIASCO unprecedented in the history of medicine and even science. If anybody wants to really know what I am talking about, they can PM me or they can do their own investigation - SOUTH AFRICA and AFRICA is a big clue. Here's another clue - by fiasco I mean a MYTH passed off as science.
Because of censorship and intimidation and blatant deceit by vested interests and those whose reputations and careers are on the line, the internet is your only friend here, but use it wisely and with discretion.

And most importantly, go into it with an open mind, prepare to be shocked and don't respect any authority, no matter how clever and seemingly impressive the jargon that they employ that you don't understand. Don't be impressed by PHDs (there is a saying -"you have to have your PHD before you don't get it") or the sheer huge number of scientists who propagate a particular orthodox viewpoint - respectively the argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) and the argument from consensus (argumentum ad numerum). Both arguments are unscientific and fallacious, neither have anything to do with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
Or don't bother at all.

Lastly - There is an error in my previous post above, I write about the Bio-Tech 'Novisto', there is no such Bio-Tech - I meant to write 'Novartis', not 'Novisto'. Sorry about the error.

Oh and mactombs thanks for your very interesting link, I will get back to you on that but I am so very busy of late that I have really zero time for myself and private affairs, and will only be able to give you a proper detailed reply when I have the time, and I have no time at all for now. But I promise I will PM you back with a detailed reply as soon as I can, the same goes for anyone else who PM's me. I will not be able to reply for quite a while, but unless I drop dead in the next few weeks will reply to all PMs eventually.

Cheers
mustang
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on May 29, 2004, 11:24:35
Thank you, Mustang, for your important contribution.  You wrote:
quote:
Let me repeat, I am only hinting at something here. Something far more terrible than any of you can even begin to imagine is going on, a FIASCO unprecedented in the history of medicine and even science.

Your description of a major breakdown in medicine is only one example of a general trend in humanity's toying with disaster.  It is brought about by a decrease of consideration for others. The behavior of children is a good barometer of society's psychological climate.  Who would have ever dreamed of school children gunning down their teachers and classmates?  Only an emotional disconnect from other people makes this possible.  But we can't blame the children.  Adults are even worse.  For decades, nations have developed terrible weapons of mass destruction – napalm, massive nuclear arsenals, poison gas, and biological weapons.  Any one of these is capable of killing vast numbers of innocent people.  Terrorism is only the visible indicator of how much humans have lost contact with their inner source and with each other.

On the industrial front, powerful corporations exploit and deplete natural resources. In 1998, the oil industry projected "optimistically" that the world's natural oil reserves would last about 40 years at present rates of consumption, according to Thom Hartman's well-researched book, "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight".  However, world oil consumption is rapidly increasing with the population growth and industrialization of Eastern countries.  China is now the number two oil consumer after the USA.  Yet, no credible effort is being made to solve this problem.  Imagine society running out of crude oil, our main energy source and the basis of vital products such as plastics!  Can you picture the havoc in our world economy when oil prices skyrocket as oil reserves are exhausted?  The present oil prices are nothing compared with what's ahead. And don't assume that corporate leaders won't let this happen!

Another well known trend is global warming and the loss of the protective ozone layer.  In a January 2001 United Nations conference in Shanghai, hundreds of scientists from around the world unanimously agreed that man-made pollutants cause global warming.  Their report predict widespread drought, floods, and violent storms caused by a rapid temperature increase. The Earth's average temperature could rise as much as 10.4 degrees in 100 years – the most rapid change in 10 millennia. Advanced computer models predict melting of the ice caps and the rise of sea levels up to 34 inches!  The resulting floods will displace tens of millions of people in low-lying areas.  Worldwide drought will lead to extended wildfires and will scorch farmlands, resulting in unprecedented famine.

Another reckless activity that directly threatens our survival is the unscrupulous elimination of the rain forests that produce the oxygen we all need to breathe. Thom Hartmann reports that 38 million acres are being destroyed every year.  At this pace, rain forests will not survive in our children's lifetimes.

The gap between the rich and the poor has increased dramatically.  ABCNEWS.com reported that the world's three richest families own more than the 43 poorest nations combined while tens of thousands of people die every day of starvation and related diseases.  On the medical front, antibiotics are being used with careless abandon, for livestock as well as for humans.  As a result, bacteria are being groomed that are increasingly immune to antibiotics.  

The Parents Television Council reports that "filthy language, graphic sexual raunch and mindless violence on prime time TV has tripled in the last decade."  The Council considers TV shows sleazy, violent and anti-family and feels that this influence will lead our nation's children "down a moral sewer."  The list goes on and on: overpopulation, mass starvations, extinction of animal species, fish stock depletion from over-fishing, uncontrolled dissemination of nuclear material etc., etc.

The trend is clear and pervasive.  We will continue down this road unless we make a conscious effort to change direction.  We claim to be an advanced civilization because of our technological achievements, but we are spiritually under-developed.  Humankind is like an immature teenager who is speeding down the highway without a driver's license.  The root cause of society's unfortunate behavior is ignorance.  If we would understand how we hurt ourselves as we hurt others in pursuit of our own advantage, we would think twice.  

Quantum Metaphysics provides a clear, logical explanation of how we are all tied together in multi-dimensional reality, and how we hurt ourselves if we hurt others.  Unless there is a general awakening and understanding of this automatic feedback, we'll keep roaring down the path to disaster.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: kifyre on May 29, 2004, 20:22:54
quote:
Originally posted by JoWo
Quantum Metaphysics provides a clear, logical explanation of how we are all tied together in multi-dimensional reality, and how we hurt ourselves if we hurt others.  Unless there is a general awakening and understanding of this automatic feedback, we'll keep roaring down the path to disaster.

Jo.




Jo, Everyone,

I think we all agree that horrible things are going on in the world. And the question is, what to do? What to do? I think it's important to note that human beings move through stages of consciousness. The general trend, supported by a vast amount of research, is a person's consciousness moving from egocentric, to ethno-centric, to world-centric. This is a slow process. Everyone starts off at square-one, ethnocentric, and, throughout their lives people move to a wider and wider embrace. But there's no guarantee that any individual will make it to world-centric consciousness. You can get stuck at any point. For example, a huge percentage of the world's population is stuck at roughly ethno-centric consciousness. You might say that the center-of-gravity, the average of the world's consciousness is ethno-centric. People only care about their families, or their communities, or their countries. Oh, people feel bad about what's happening in the world, but not bad enough to *do* anything. That haven't made it far enough to world-centric to feel a gut-level drive to break the habits of their lives and reach out, band together to help others. Recycling, AIDS awareness, donations, all these external structures are essential, but they don't stick without a corresponding change in consciousness.

So, again, what to do? Well, books like Jo's are a start. They provide an intellectual framework to grow into, and permission to begin to seek higher and wider realities. But ideas aren't enough. Until your embrace spans the globe, until the suffering of others cuts as deeply as your own suffering, until through-and-through--intricacy to emptiness to radiance begins to shine through you, until you begin to see your own Self looking back at you as you gaze at the world... You won't be moved to emancipate and empower yourself. You won't be moved to seek like-minded souls to network change, little-by-little.

Ideas are a start, but they aren't enough. How then might we begin to not just believe we are connected, but to feel it radiantly, in our bones, to know it like we know our face in the mirror? We must work on ourselves, reach up to helping hands, and reach down to those that are searching below us. Books like Jo's are a part of this.

Ideas aren't enough, but practices transform. Practices like meditation, for example. This is the crux of the matter: practices transform. Peak experiences, grace, sudden knowing of connectedness can happen at any time. These experiences can change you forever, but they are fleeting, leaving only feeling and memory. To live it, in every moment, little by little you can either let life experience slowly raise you up, or you can  do things like meditate to accelerate your growth. For further reading about stages of consciousness I recommend Boomeritis by Ken Wilber (heavy reading, heavily researched, but still a novel), and for practices to accelerate the evolution of your consciousness I recommend Essential Spirituality by Roger Walsh.

Mark

Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mactombs on June 01, 2004, 11:25:14
Mustang, thanks for your consideration. I will patiently await your response. Also, I'd like to add that not all scientists are bad. I know quite a few very humane scientists - but as a general rule, it seems on an individual level you find goodness, but on an instiutional level, there's rarely any such thing.

quote:
Ideas aren't enough, but practices transform. Practices like meditation, for example. This is the crux of the matter: practices transform. Peak experiences, grace, sudden knowing of connectedness can happen at any time. These experiences can change you forever, but they are fleeting, leaving only feeling and memory. To live it, in every moment, little by little you can either let life experience slowly raise you up, or you can do things like meditate to accelerate your growth.


My personal experience agrees very much with this. The turn in the direction I am now moving was started with an attempt at meditation.

quote:
To mactombs: What kind of a "medium" are you? (I'm a large myself!). Personally, reading most of the stuff by professed mediums and channelers, makes me ill. Most, not all, of it is to my mind one's "muse" going out of control into subconscious wishful thinking or amplification of negative neuroses.


Here you are thinking too Eastern. I meant "neutral", or more likely relatively so. Maybe, more accurately, luke-warm in my thoughts. Between. If I were to claim to be the other type of medium, I would be much more vague and refer to someone with a "V" or "Z" in their name. In any case, I'm glad of your input, as I've been wondering about the topic recently...

[/serious]As Vaza the Enlightened Being speaks: Venus interdicts between the Mother Sun and Earth in the second week of the six month by mortal time. This will bring an increase of energy and be a dawn of changes on the physical plane! These things I have spoken of many times in my book brought upon this mortal plane, and this special time you will be prepared for if you have read it. [:o)]
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on June 05, 2004, 18:09:39
Hello Mark,

Thank you for your interesting contribution to our discussion. You wrote:
quote:
I think we all agree that horrible things are going on in the world. And the question is, what to do? What to do? I think it's important to note that human beings move through stages of consciousness. The general trend, supported by a vast amount of research, is a person's consciousness moving from egocentric, to ethno-centric, to world-centric. This is a slow process.

Yes, so it is, and I have a few additional thoughts.  Before we decide exactly what to do, we need to have a clear idea of what needs to be done, what needs to be changed.  What is the root cause of humanity's impasse? IMO, the root cause is a misunderstanding of how the universe works.  Religions as well as science have implanted belief systems that contradict reality, and this led to erroneous behavior.

In religion, metaphorical images of a universal deity have been misinterpreted as an omnipotent and human-like but perfect God who created us. Yet, in spite of the creator's perfection, we somehow ended up being imperfect.  We were made to believe that we were sinners that needed to be punished, and that were far removed from God.  And since we consider ourselves separated from God, we also feel separated from each other.

Reality is the exactly opposite.  The transcendent Whole of the universe is one with us all.  In ultimate reality, there is no separation between us.  Science has enhanced our feeling of separation through its scientific materialism that is still the mainstream scientific paradigm.  

Imagine, instead, that all people in the world would be convinced that we are all one, that we are but cells in one cosmic unit.  Imagine all humans being convinced of their one-ness with the All and with everyone else.  Picture how they would identify themselves with this cosmic One as their own inner self.  People would instantaneously think and act according to the welfare of all, because they would know that the welfare of all is their own welfare.  Then they won't need any "morals" to foster moral behavior because they won't want to hurt themselves.

In this sense, Mark, I believe that ideas are not only a start, but they are the essential moving force.  Once you have instilled the right ideas, the appropriate action follows automatically.  The needed action is to educate as many people as possible, as soon as possible, about the true nature of reality.  I believe that this is the anwer to "what to do?".  And I agree with you, Mark, that practices like meditation, performed with dedication and perseverance, are required in order to secure the new ideas in peoples' minds. I also believe that the belief-change is very urgent.  True, the human evolutionary pattern evolves from egocentric, to ethno-centric, to world-centric, similar to how a person passes through childhood, adolescence, and maturity.  However, we are not satisfied with this detached view of events if our teenage daughter has AIDS, or our son is a drug addict.  I believe that humanity's present state of affairs is more an emergency than a normal evolutionary phase.

Greetings!
Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on June 07, 2004, 16:00:47
Hi Red Dragon,

Good to hear your point of view.  You wrote on May 31:
quote:
Reading and understanding Jo's book was pretty easy, its just a different reasoning semantic for what shamans do, i.e access these other dimensions.

I know little about shamanism, so it is so much more satisfying to see the agreement between our views of reality, coming from opposite directions, so to speak.  I pursued a scientifically supported, rational approach in my book.  Using easily observable phenomena in our environment plus results of modern physics, I formulated a set of facts that together form a "Holistic Logic" that naturally leads to a worldview of multiple dimensions, most of which are invisible to us "ordinary citizens".  IOW, using scientific facts and rational thought, it is possible to postulate a cosmic system that agrees closely with age-old spiritual wisdom.

For you, Red Dragon, the multi-dimensional concept developed in my book may be "old hat", but most western people are still rooted in the mechanistic, anti-psychics view.  For many, a shaman is a throwback to "primitive cultures", not to be taken seriously.  You must have encountered this attitude, Red Dragon.  

quote:
I'm involved in a vision quest with 2 other shamans. The only vision of the future we had that held out hope for the monkeyplanet's survival was that we should develop these abilities that were previously relegated to the province of mystics and psychics. Not only does this entail achieving a sort of "supra-consciousness", but some pretty neat abilities come with it, i.e. levitation, flight, passing through solid objects, etc.

So, just how to bring about this awareness seems to be the critical problem in addition to determining the mechanics involved.

It is impossible for individuals to develop mystic and psychic abilities unless they first accept that they are for real.  The prevailing western opinion is that they are hocus-pocus.  Therefore it is so important to inform the public about how science supports these phenomena.

quote:
Anyway, my theory is that using the brain's crystalline structures via one's thought process causes not only these physical effects, but enables perceptive access and depending on the dimension, actual interaction. So far, there doesn't seem to be any way of avoiding a corresponding "spiritual awakening".

The latter seems to be the biggest hurdle to overcome and is potentially the most debilitating to the individual. Whether we're therefor "wired" for a belief in deity or an "All Consciousness" is a point in question, and thus concepts of "the whole" and its different dimensions simply seek to rationalize this belief.

We are dealing with semantics here.  I have used the word "Whole" to avoid the emotional baggage of existing spiritual terms. Words such as 'spiritual awakening', 'deity', 'All Consciousness' have different connotations for different individuals.  I dare say that most people don't even understand the concept of spiritual awakening.  I also think that ultimate spiritual awakening for a broad populace is neither feasible nor necessary. All that is necessary is for a large sector of humanity to accept the reality of universal "wholeness" including its logical consequences.  We are talking about a "critical mass" of people who see the light.  Once the media support such concepts, we could hope for a change in humanity's direction.

quote:
. . . We're a little behind in our appreciation and integration of "The Grand Design", so to speak and our corresponding evolution into humane beings. In the meantime, as was pointed out, the planet and life on it heading for deep doo doo!
 

It's never too late to soften the blow, I hope.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: mustang on June 09, 2004, 02:33:51
Jo Wolf writes
quote:
We are talking about a "critical mass" of people who see the light. Once the media support such concepts, we could hope for a change in humanity's direction

The media are part of the problem, in every way. They will never support any concept that has anything to do with any truth whatsoever. The media has to tell people what they want to hear, and people want to hear lies, they want their bigotry and prejudices and delusions confirmed, and the media does that for them.

You would sooner get the AAAS and the NAS on board supporting such concepts, than getting the media on board for sure.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on June 10, 2004, 07:37:48
Hello Everyone,

I may be off the air for a while because of computer problems.

Greetings!

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on June 12, 2004, 11:46:40
Hi Red Dragon,

On June 8 you wrote:
quote:
Many are the paths. I'm an M.Sc. myself so I'm familiar with the scientific method. One of the other members of the "vision quest" I'm in is a math/physics savant. We used the scientific method to validate, replicate our experiences.

Sounds interesting.  Have you ever considered working with an organization such as the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS) or the Consciousness Research Laboratory (CRL)?  Obviously, you need a more sympathetic environment for your work.
quote:
Positive belief systems have been proven to enhance psychic results in the 90's.

Of course, we create our reality through our beliefs [:)].
quote:
Not only is North American society not satisfactory any more, its sliding into a fascist state as theorized for the last 20-30 years.

This and your other examples of general dysfunction are all part of the overall trend I mentioned before.  The answer can only be in a better understanding of how the universe works.  It's the motivation behind our discussion here.
quote:
JoWo:
quote:
I dare say that most people don't even understand the concept of spiritual awakening. I also think that ultimate spiritual awakening for a broad populace is neither feasible nor necessary.

Red Dragon:

It doesn't seem to be feasible in our increasing secular NA society. Unfortunately, despite my/our efforts, I haven't found any method that will avoid this spiritual awakening. Refusing to accept it, or accepting it incorrectly, leads to madness or worse. This is my reasoning behind the postulate that our brains are hard wired for this even though the brain's programming is generally variable.

Interesting how your and my views of differ. I see full spiritual awakening as the ultimate goal of our life experience, whereas you seem to perceive a problem with it.  I assume that the difference is in the approach to spirituality. Let me try this explanation:  I approach spiritual awakening as a natural outcome from thoughts and actions, supported with appropriate meditation, that are in complete harmony with the transcendent Whole of the universe (All-Entity).  This boils down to practicing unconditional love, which is All-Entity.  
If I understand your schamanic approach correctly, Red Dragon, you practice certain psychic exercises in order to modify physiological functions that enable you to experience psychic/spiritual reality.  

I leave the physiological modifications up to the spiritual guides that we all have, trusting their judgment of what's good for me.  You, Red Dragon, take matters more into your own hands, possibly speeding things up, but also taking the risk of potential missteps.  There are pros and cons for either approach, but I would like to hear your view before expanding on this subject.
quote:
A shamanic awakening starts with the other dimensional or dark energy suddenly flowing into the head and then down through the body. Needless to say, shamanic awakenings have an unacceptably high failure rate, about one in 3 die according to the lore. Thankfully its very rare.

It may not be a failure from the dying person's point of view. Perhaps he/she likes it so much more on the other side?
quote:
We are working on how to do this. But we can't seem to get around going through the "zones" of "omniscience and omnipresence" which is where screw ups occur. Its a poser allright. We even designed and built (based on my Kabbalistic drawings - I've decoded a lot of the ancient tech.) a combination kundalini/caduceus circuit that would activate one's crystalline brain structures. The same result of having to go through a spritual awakening occured.

Sounds to me like a rather delicate surgery requiring an antiseptic environment.  Doesn't this take completely purified mindsets of all participants to avoid mishaps?

Greetings!
Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on June 12, 2004, 16:19:11
Hello Mustang,

On 09 June you wrote:
quote:
The media are part of the problem, in every way. They will never support any concept that has anything to do with any truth whatsoever. The media has to tell people what they want to hear, and people want to hear lies, they want their bigotry and prejudices and delusions confirmed, and the media does that for them
I agree with you that this is so now. Yet we can never hope for a better state of affairs unless we do something about it. It begins with interested individuals communicating better alternatives. There is already an "underground" movement towards a new understanding of spirituality.  Several organizations are addressing the problems and a growing number of books are being published about a new view of spirituality. Some publishers already specialize in this field. I believe that we will be better off supporting this trend rather than giving up and watching the growing misery.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on June 18, 2004, 20:14:51
Hello Mustang,

Thank you very much for your detailed PM about medical problems affecting South Africa.  I answered you with a PM on 06-16 but I believe that you did not receive the message because of some computer problem.  This post here is a close copy of what I tried to send to you before.

I read through your references and it's rather bad situation alright.  I am impressed about how knowledgeable you are of this subject and I can imagine how it affects you.  To me, your story is another vivid example of what is wrong with humanity, quite in line with many other examples.  

We have a choice now how to react to such depressing facts.  I don't know how you personally cope with this, Mustang.  It's not easy, and if you don't watch out, it could eat you up.  Whatever you focus your mind on, this you'll experience in your future.  I'm not saying to turn our mind away from misery that needs to be corrected.  I'm rather saying that we create the desired future by focusing our mind on what is desirable, not what is undesirable, on the solution, not the problem.  We still focus on the same subject, but from a different angle.  It's a subtle but important difference.

I got the picture of what you are telling me, Mustang, supported by your net references, and it requires a remedy.  My own reaction is that I am even more motivated to help others understand how the universe works, how people hurt themselves when they hurt others.  Once they grasp this as a "fact", the new common sense, not moral but common sense will cause them to act responsibly.  This may sound like a long shot, but it is the only way I can think of that will do the job.  Modern man needs more than religious or moral principles.  After having gone though the "survival of the fittest" wringer, humankind must understand that "you create your own reality" by how you treat others.

You had some comments concerning the meaning of 'belief', Mustang.  We have a bit of a semantics problem here.  By 'belief' I simply mean what I consider to be correct.  Forget about its religious connotation, although religious beliefs are also considered to be correct by many. By correct I mean factual.  So there are wrong beliefs and there are correct ones, i.e. factual.  

A person's beliefs determine his/her thoughts and actions, whether the beliefs are factual or not.  If the beliefs are not factual, then the results are unsatisfactory.  The corporations' belief in survival of the fittest is erroneous and therefore causes the massive problems such as the one you described.  A change of belief to "we are all One", if genuinely accepted, would change all this.

Now, I am not so naïve to assume that you, I, and perhaps a few thousand others can turn this around.  I am counting on what I believe is an impending evolutionary shift. "We are All One" is an idea whose time has come, supported by powerful spiritual forces.  There are many channeled messages along this line that I consider credible.  It's the new common sense supported by the holistic logic of quantum metaphysics.

Greetings!
Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on July 02, 2004, 19:00:04
Hello Red Dragon,

Thank you for your long message.  I'll need some time to digest it, and I'll be away for the better part of next week.  So please wait with your "fly-bys" [:D].

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on July 14, 2004, 17:36:30
Hi Red Dragon,
quote:
quote:
JoWo:
Interesting how your and my views of differ. I see full spiritual awakening as the ultimate goal of our life experience, whereas you seem to perceive a problem with it. I assume that the difference is in the approach to spirituality. Let me try this explanation: I approach spiritual awakening as a natural outcome from thoughts and actions, supported with appropriate meditation, that are in complete harmony with the transcendent Whole of the universe (All-Entity). This boils down to practicing unconditional love, which is All-Entity.
Red Dragon:
I didn't mean to convey that impression. I personally have no conceptual problems with a spiritual awakening per se. However the absolutely overwhelming intensity of a "full" one simply cannot be described. Shamanic ecstasy is but a step towards it. The problem will be with people with an insufficient, inadequate or no spiritual foundation. As for my view of both secular and religious types who would experience this "rapture", right now it seems that a lot will simply die from the experience. The folks who think they are "rapture ready" for instance, are in for one hell of a surprise. They'll be among the first ones to "burn".
As I understand it, the more benign approach of natural spiritual growth via meditation and conscious living automatically avoids this fierce "rapture" type of Awakening.
quote:
Hmmm... Unconditional Love is but an aspect of All Entity, admittedly an agreeable approach. But...How would It know what unconditional love is in the absence of hate? Good in the absence of evil? Even then, such concepts only demonstrate the limitations of our thinking abilities. This All Entity is All Consciousness, including concepts like hate and evil.
Right. That's the point: letting go of our limited kind of thought, of accepting, without judgment, that What Is. It is identical with unconditional Love.  We can't do this by trying to sort it out rationally. Any such attempt is counter-productive.  The only chance to sense the unifying harmonious whole of opposites such as Love and Hate, Good and Evil, Space and Time, etc. is via a meditative state of mind.  It requires a temporary surrender of our opinions.
quote:
quote:
JoWo:
I leave the physiological modifications up to the spiritual guides that we all have, trusting their judgment of what's good for me. You, Red Dragon, take matters more into your own hands, possibly speeding things up, but also taking the risk of potential missteps. There are pros and cons for either approach, but I would like to hear your view before expanding on this subject.
I refuse to sacrifice my free will. It's the greatest gift we've been given.
When I decide to let a surgeon remove my appendix, it is still my free will, even though I don't do it myself [:)].
quote:
I've had no past lives, . . .
I have never heard of this possibility before, but if this is so, I can understand your unconventional approach to spiritual reality.  It is certainly interesting to listen to your perspective, Red Dragon.

Greetings!
Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Necromancer on July 31, 2004, 17:54:54
Greetings All:

I am having a little trouble following on in this thread but from what I surmise I agree with both, as it sounds like the analytical and the artistic hemispheres of the brain arguing perception to the consciousness.

I think JoWo wrote

Quote:
The problem will be with people with an insufficient, inadequate or no spiritual foundation. As for my view of both secular and religious types who would experience this "rapture", right now it seems that a lot will simply die from the experience. The folks who think they are "rapture ready" for instance, are in for one hell of a surprise. They'll be among the first ones to "burn".

I am sure how you mean this but I can see it happening. In my younger days I awoke the kundilini within and became able to awaken the kundilini in others with a touch and have seen lives come apart and die. It was without proper guidance and understanding some people have had a lot of problems with the awakening. It is like in Plato's postulate of this world being a shadow of reality, when the id and physical become one in the conscious hell breaks loose.

Red Dragon wrote something that caught my eye in this thread, as it is also what I do:
Quote:
We are working on how to do this. But we can't seem to get around going through the "zones" of "omniscience and omnipresence" which is where screw ups occur. Its a poser allright. We even designed and built (based on my Kabbalistic drawings - I've decoded a lot of the ancient tech.) a combination kundalini/caduceus circuit that would activate one's crystalline brain structures. The same result of having to go through a spritual awakening occured.

The caduceus circuit I thought was on a metaphysical level with a shaman and this sounds hardwired. If so, no way would I get next to that thing. I don't have any problem building computers but that is out of my league. I'll stay with my laying on of hands and sending someone to when or wherever chosen.

I think JoWo this is your postulate that we are hard wired for a spiritual awakening, have you ever thought that maybe that is because this is not the first one or second or even the seventh. Homer in his writing of Atlantis alluded to tales others told that the earth had gone through many such epochs.

I do like your Holon Principles, and really relate to the holographic imagery of a tree at various degrees. It just seems that through my raised kundilini my understanding of the division of dimensions is disappearing. I'll expand this a little, it goes back to the two great forces the immovable perfect and the irresistible perfect and the what happens when they touch. That was the beginning and here we are in a war with; the immovable the singularity of existence, the first dimension the irresistible force, infinite dimensions everywhere at one time.

The elegant string theory is a good place to start. In quantum physics every string is the smallest moment of time, or it is an event horizon of time. In this quantum world one side of the string (actually the center it just looks like the other side) would be the singular point of existence and the other side world be a specific time or space. In as much as that point of singularity within that quantum string is the same point in all quantum strings throughout the totality of existence. This would be the bottom end of our universe or the constraint of one end.

Where we are now is living on the event horizon, we are only surface dwellers walking on the membrane of the micro and macrocosmic experience. Living in tangencies of multiplicities in a 2 dimensional world. Like within your explanation of the Holon crystal except we have continuity over multiple planes. That tangency is the singularity that is every thing and everywhere. In a short time we are going to have a reality shift, like in every atomic particle there comes a time of quantum fluxation, as we will pass through an event horizon.

The upper limits of eternity or this cosmos is limited by the restraints of the giant black holes. It would seem that when quantum strings pile up or get to close or forced to touch each other the individual time and space signature is lost and what was two now is one. This reaction goes on and on like some mystical radicand splicing all those elegant strings together. At first just a small hole in our space then a rift in our space-time continuum a giant black hole is born.

This would make the center point of all black holes a doorway to the same point and all singularities within a quantum string the same point.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on August 05, 2004, 14:05:07
quote:
I think JoWo wrote

Quote:
The problem will be with people with an insufficient, inadequate or no spiritual foundation. As for my view of both secular and religious types who would experience this "rapture", right now it seems that a lot will simply die from the experience. The folks who think they are "rapture ready" for instance, are in for one hell of a surprise. They'll be among the first ones to "burn".

Hello Necromancer.

I believe that Red Dragon wrote this passage.
quote:
I think JoWo this is your postulate that we are hard wired for a spiritual awakening, have you ever thought that maybe that is because this is not the first one or second or even the seventh. Homer in his writing of Atlantis alluded to tales others told that the earth had gone through many such epochs

I actually have no opinion about hard wiring or soft programming of our brains.  In fact, I know nothing about this.  My views are of philosophical nature based on an enlightening experience of higher reality.

Concerning string theory, I could never warm up to it. (Perhaps I don't understand it enough). The concept of higher dimensions coiled up in incredibly thin strings does not make sense to me because this appears to be an attempt to squeeze higher reality into the confines of our 3-D world.  Instead, I am convinced that it is the other way around. Our 3-D world is a limited aspect of a much vaster multi-dimensional reality that is not limited to our concepts of space and time. Because the multi-dimensional reality is transcendent, it is still "immanent" in every aspect of our 3-D world, as a 3-D object is transcendent to and immanent in its 2-D surface.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Chimerae on August 17, 2004, 15:04:43
Dear Jo Wolf,

I'm not sure how to put enough respect into this to give it the balanced response I really intend.  So I'll just say that this all comes with respect and leave it at that.

What does your understanding of Quantum Metaphysics imply in answer to your question about the lack of interest in your forum?

I would imagine that most people out on Astral Pulse are at some level gifted or sensitive.  It may not be something they can necessarily pull up into a consciousness they can manipulate with words, but there must needs be something resonant for there to be an attraction to this subject.  

My interesting in quantum mechanics and metaphysics is intense.  I admit that my mathematics are completely inadequate to crunch the numbers, so I can't really run with the big dogs on this subject.  I know that. I deal with it.  I just don't like staying on the porch.

The pure science is out of my reach but I can and do twiddle with the application and experience.  These twined subjects are a consistent discussion among my local circle of associates, some few of who DO crunch the numbers in their pure  form.  All this is to say that I'm very much interested in your discussion topic.

Also, while I am sensitive, I'm not a whimp.

When I clicked onto this topic of discussion, I was hit by a massive barrage of negativity.  I don't know how often you read this with new eyes, but this discussion reads like a bunch of nearsighted engineers whining about why not everyone thinks their particular version of a subspecialty is the most important anywhere.  

I adore engineers, but there's a reason not many people listen when they speak.  

Exclusion is the name of the game here.

Some newbie (like me) posted, and I believe was told something like healing wasn't applicable to Quantum Metaphysics.  I presume he went away and didn't come back.  

Umm. O . . . k . . . a. . .  y   That sounds a little to my ears like saying that sailing doesn't apply to water.  Technically, I get your point, but MY experience of the intersection of quantum mechanics and metaphysics tells me that the node has application with everything, everywhere.  Healing is often the place people get focused and motivated and open to learning.    

Basically, your personal message comes across as the old kids litany "My House My Rules" followed by the also familiar wail:  "Why won't anyone play with us?"

I totally agree that this subject is the key to a workable future -- that it's concept evolutionary and everyone needs to embrace it.  I'm not sure that you serve that goal by declaring an open forum and then scolding posters for talking about stuff not on your agenda.

And while I'm at it, if the arena is really that exclusive, how come I can read these posts in simple english and not as page upon page of mathematics . . .or links to charts?  

Sure . . . set the limits where you like and enforce them.  But in doing that, does it then make sense to complain that the world within your policed limts is somehow . . . limited????

It's terribly rude of me to jump in here with such harsh observations, but I think what you have is extremely important and I feel the legitimate desire for greater inclusion of this critical concept in the group mind.  

So with what meager skillfulness I have, I offer my outside perspective on your oft echoed question:  Why don't people take the time to understand?  

BOTH Quantum Mechanics AND Metaphysics offer clear implications as to the answer.  I suspect that your book "Understanding the Grand Design: Spiritual Reality's Hidden Logic" spells out the answer with greater clarity and it takes a lowly tech such as myself to redirect the theoricians.

Best Regards,

Chimerae  




Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on August 21, 2004, 15:19:30
Hello Chimerae,

Thank you for your stimulating message.  

Adrian Cooper, the owner of this site, initiated the Quantum Metaphysics Forum (see:  Sticky: Welcome to the Quantum Metaphysics Forum).  Adrian informed me about his expertise in ancient spiritual scriptures and that my Quantum Metaphysics website expressed virtually the same fundamental wisdom in modern terms.  So he invited me to participate in his forum. Surely, Adrian knows that, for his audience, "there must needs be something resonant for there to be an attraction to this subject", as you put it, Chimerae.

My motivation and desire is that others recognize the urgency for all of us to understand the fundamental wisdom lest humanity continues its present slide into anarchy.  I am sorry that you, Chimerae, feel "this discussion reads like a bunch of nearsighted engineers whining about why not everyone thinks their particular version of a subspecialty is the most important anywhere."  There is nothing "subspecialized" about it, Chimerae.  And it has nothing to do with "My House My Rules" or "Why won't anyone play with us?"
quote:
Some newbie (like me) posted, and I believe was told something like healing wasn't applicable to Quantum Metaphysics. I presume he went away and didn't come back.

I have no idea where this comes from. It certainly contradicts my own writings.
quote:
I totally agree that this subject is the key to a workable future -- that it's concept evolutionary and everyone needs to embrace it. I'm not sure that you serve that goal by declaring an open forum and then scolding posters for talking about stuff not on your agenda.

Did I do that?  Tell me where, please.
quote:
And while I'm at it, if the arena is really that exclusive, how come I can read these posts in simple english and not as page upon page of mathematics . . .or links to charts?
?????
quote:
Sure . . . set the limits where you like and enforce them. But in doing that, does it then make sense to complain that the world within your policed limts is somehow . . . limited????

I am not aware of any limits other than the usual common courtesy applicable to online forums.
quote:
It's terribly rude of me to jump in here with such harsh observations, but I think what you have is extremely important and I feel the legitimate desire for greater inclusion of this critical concept in the group mind.

The only way I know how to do this is to become more familiar with the concept.  Let me know if I can help you with it.

Greetings!

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Necromancer on September 11, 2004, 16:45:22
Jo:

I appoligize for taking so long to respond; felt like I dropped a conversation in the middle to put out a fire and in doing so I left you with the impression of squeezing higher life formation wasn't the goal.
Concerning string theory, I could never warm up to it. (Perhaps I don't understand it enough). The concept of higher dimensions coiled up in incredibly thin strings does not make sense to me because this appears to be an attempt to squeeze higher reality into the confines of our 3-D world.
The point of the singularity, wormholes, and space-time concepts was the idea. That the center point of every black hole throughout the cosmos is the same point in the same dimension of singularity. Also that the center of every string is that same singularity.

It only leads to the fact that this dimension is the surface tension or tangency to all dimensions, a gateway if you will. In the Kundilini Yoga there is Ouroboros the serpent that consumes itself from the tail, or serpent biting its tail, a symbol of the creation, the beginning and the end, continually consuming and growing. That is how I see the world of quantum physics related to ancient teachings. Also I see this in your holon theory. Each string in the quantum universe being the smallest particle of a holographic image, or the smallest moment of time. On this level it is quite easy to see that time is not a fluid motion and not continuous. That in the quantum universe it flows in multi-directions, and through multiple parallel dimensions.

That should tell you that this so-called 3-D universe is more than that, which usually people forget about the 4th part of out universe that is the time-space continuum. Scientist or theoretical physicists in quantum mechanics are beginning to see and study this phenomenon.  Our sub-atomic structure is that of a multiverse of your holons that flow in all directions of time and space and our perceptions are of the majority. This would lead you to the fact that our 3-D universe is actually a composite of past, present, future, and parallel universes.

I take question to all these so-called higher dimensional beings and their higher reality; they lead you to the idea that this is "just a stepping stone along the way to a higher consciousness." This is a fine-line of debate as I am connected to beings of altered states of consciousness. What I have learned is that we are the ancients we are the advanced higher beings and that time space is nothing like you know of. I am not trying to "squeeze" higher reality into the confines of our universe it is a fact of life. The fabric of our time space is made up of those holons of all eternity.

WE ARE THE MAN!

Oh here is a link to just one of those quantum physicists. Within my OOBE, occult practice, and necromancy, I have learned to take people through these things but that might be just an illusion too.

http://www.qubit.org/people/david/David.html
The Structure of the Multiverse
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0104033
has appeared in Proceedings of the Royal Society A458 2028 2911-23 (2002).
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/9906015
Authors: David Deutsch


Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on September 14, 2004, 20:24:09
Hello Necromancer,

I have basically no problem with your explanation.  An important part of Holistic Logic is that the higher dimensions are immanent, that is inside and transcendent, in everything.  As your soul is immanent in your body.  Ultimately, the highest "dimension" beyond all dimensions, the one that is not limited in any way and not definable other that it is a singularity, is immanent in every tiniest something that exists, whether we call it "string" or whatever.

The problem I have is with the concept that the higher dimension is "curled up" within such strings.  This implies that the higher dimensions do not expand beyond the dimensions of the strings.  This contradicts the concept of "higher" dimensions, IMO, particularly the concept of a singularity.
quote:
I take question to all these so-called higher dimensional beings and their higher reality; they lead you to the idea that this is "just a stepping stone along the way to a higher consciousness." This is a fine-line of debate as I am connected to beings of altered states of consciousness. What I have learned is that we are the ancients we are the advanced higher beings and that time space is nothing like you know of. I am not trying to "squeeze" higher reality into the confines of our universe it is a fact of life. The fabric of our time space is made up of those holons of all eternity.
I don't see a conflict in assuming higher dimensional beings versus the notion that they "are us".  "We" are both, our individual selves as well as our souls.  From the viewpoint of our present incarnation, we must assume that higher dimensional beings do exist, such as our souls.  Their consciousness encompasses the parallel universes of their multiple incarnations.  Ultimately, we are all One.  This implies that we are also those higher dimensional beings.

Greetings!

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on March 29, 2004, 08:58:33
The Quantum Metaphysics forum has seen over 430 posts on about 40 subjects since Adrian's initial post some ten months ago.  Many contributions were interesting and helpful, yet I cannot remember one of them that reflected a true understanding of the subject at hand: what does Quantum Metaphysics tell us?  Has anyone read the book titled "Understanding the Grand Design: Spiritual Reality's Hidden Logic"?  If you have not, please see other readers' opinions. Go to www.quantum-metaphysics.com.  On its first page, click <font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">"What readers think of my book."</font id="Times New Roman"></font id="size3"> This will motivate you to learn more about this subject.

If you are at all interested in how the universe "works" and how modern science and age-old spiritual wisdom merge into one, if you want to understand how the "New Age" concepts are supported by modern science, then do yourself a favor, blow $16.95 and get the whole picture.  This book heralds a future science, and it leads you to an understanding of life's deepest mysteries, associated with an inner peace, joy and freedom that must be experienced to be appreciated.
Please understand also that my motivation for promoting this book is to help as many individuals as possible to "see the light", and to contribute my share to a better future for humankind.  I may never see a penny profit from it.

Who understands quantum metaphysics? Let this topic thread be a place for contributors who have at least tried to understand Quantum Metaphysics and its core concept, Holisitc Logic.  My website www.quantum-metaphysics.com provides an essay titled "Revolution in Common Sense" which states the basic ideas.  However, it was written back in 1991 and my book is scientifically more up-to-date, it reflects a deeper understanding on my part, and it is easier to read, supported by many illustrations.

I believe that we have nibbled around the edges of Quantum Metaphysics long enough.  Let us now delve into the actual substance of what's all about!

Greetings!
Jo Wolf.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: knucklebrain1970 on November 04, 2004, 23:39:43
Holy Crap Batman, I think I've died and gone to heaven.

:shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:


My new home on the net. QUANTUM METAPHYSICS (http://67.19.50.55/forums/images/smilies/thumb.gif)

Hi everybody

Kevin (knuckle)
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Necromancer on December 31, 2004, 17:42:12
JoWo:

Sorry it took so long to get back to this subject, computer problems, but I guess you understand what I mean.

When you think of a dimension being curled up inside of a quantum string as small you are only using this so-called 3D logic. Through quantum physics Dr. Stephen Hawking describes how these miniscule fragments of time when combined become a gigantic black hole that binds the galaxy together.

Take your pick a quantum string anywhere any place in time or space or a gigantic black hole anyplace anytime and you will be in the same point of existence, the 0 dimension, or the first dimension. Maybe I would have to take you into the astral planes to see what I mean.

In 4th dimension logic it is very easy to conceive of something being much larger on the inside than on the outside. It is like the story of Alice Through the Looking Glass, it's just the door that is hard to deal with
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: cristaphin on January 03, 2005, 12:52:00
As a metaphysical child, I'm not even going to pretend to understand alot of this.  However, I would like to say Thank You to everyone for having a lively debate and being polite and not getting too snarky on each other.

For someone like myself, who is trying to learn, I often find the hardest part is trying to read past all the flames that people toss when trying to get their own point across and they are being either misunderstood or attacked for their viewpoint and i've witnessed some very deft deflections here.

Not only am I learning a smidgen of Quantum, I'm also learning how to present, and accept opinions.

Namaste teachers, one and all.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Necromancer on January 04, 2005, 19:12:00
Hi cristaphin

If you have an opinion I wouldn't like to hear one. Then I could tell you where you're wrong: JUST KIDDING-lol. I try to maintain that we are all as the blind that are asked to describe an elephant by one touch.

As you can see by the dates of posts the activity in this subject isn't a heated discussion.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: cristaphin on January 05, 2005, 06:16:42
Alrighty then, for better or worse, this is what impression I'm developing.

*Ah-hem, cough, clear throat* :oops:

Every single spot of space (even that empty space where the neutrons whiz around is/are) is song/vibration/energy web.

The less refined, the lower/harder it is. The more refined, the higher/more flexible.

Humans, have a funky kind of juxtaposition in that we have a multi-layered song.  As in, we are already made up of different notes, we can learn to hear the individual notes.

Since we have access, by nature to different tones, we have the ability to eventually control our voice, thereby creating new songs with resonating harmonies.  Therefore, we have the ability to change ourselves, and eventually the tones in our surrounding environment.

Which will be really important when we are no longer 'bound' to matter (we're dead or OBEing) because we will be/already are to a degree responsible for the reality in our immediate vicinity.  

Hey, wouldn't that make us self playing synthesizers? :lol:
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on January 05, 2005, 15:26:01
Hello Necromancer,

I certainly agree that any point of our world contains immanently the entire multidimensional universe. The higher dimensions are immanent within everything.  Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics, but the concept of higher dimensions being "curled up" to fit into lower dimensional space does not jibe with my experience of higher reality.

JoWo
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on January 05, 2005, 15:36:01
Hello Cristaphin,

Welcome to the club  :), and thank you for your comments.

Jo.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Necromancer on January 08, 2005, 20:43:50
Hi cristaphin

I like the way in which you are relating things, seems like you might have a musical interest. One part of what you said:
"Since we have access, by nature to different tones, we have the ability to eventually control our voice, thereby creating new songs with resonating harmonies."
I was wondering if you would expand a little more. Being a necromancer I think I understand what you mean but would like to know more. When lying within the realm of spirits I hear many voices, not as you imagine but as the knowing of the vibration of individual spirits. If one was to enter this realm without the knowledge of their own voice it would be reminiscent of the age of Chaos, being pulled this way or that depending on whichever voice you listen to.

From what you have expressed I can relate it to JoWo's web page http://www.quantum-metaphysics.com/essay.htm where he expresses his view from a quantitative analyses viewpoint and you express it in more of an artistic form, kind of a right brain and left brain concept. I look forward for a good argument of either.

I do have a question for you and JoWo, why is this physical perceived in such a negative way? As for me this is a very great learning ground where the laws of creation and re-creation are learned. I have learned that no matter where I go I still have physicality. Not that my physicality is like the one in this world of eternity but the underlying laws of existence still apply. I have been in altered states of reality where in a light body, I fly, go through objects, and time travel but in a difference I am still physical. In the higher depths of quantum physics one sees that there is no real solid, only energy or vibration.

JoWo:

"It is just a matter of semantics," but I'm not going to give up on trying to show that there are doorways to higher dimensions all curled up in what was.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on January 10, 2005, 22:20:56
Hello Necromancer,
Quotewhy is this physical perceived in such a negative way?
Not everyone perceives it that way.  However some individuals who believe in the more basic nature of spiritual reality tend to "look down" on physical reality.  Physical reality is not "bad", of course.  It is an aspect of "God", and you hinder your spiritual growth if you hate any part of God.  Without it, we would never be able to experience the exultation of spiritual reality.
Title: my grasp of Quant. Phys.
Post by: Jrd on January 25, 2005, 14:48:58
Hello,
  I am new to the Quant. forum, although I love physics and have a difficult time finding people who enjoy discusing it. Anway this is my take on the world of Quantum physics, and it all wraps up in two words- string theory. The string theory, or how I take the string theory in relations to OBE's and extra dimensions is easily understood with one anology, a loaf of bread. This I believe is one of Brian Greene's originals, he is the author or 'Elegant Universe' and 'The Fabric of the Cosmo's' and has a great talent for writing for the masses.
     Anyway the loaf is sliced up and each individual slice represents what is called a membrane in quant. physcis, or for short a brane. Each brane is thought to be a separate dimension or as we call it a Universe. Our brane, our slice of the loaf,  consist of our one universe. The reason we concieve only our brane and not other branes that are relatively right next to us is because we are vibrating at a separate and individual level in comparision to the other branes.  For example think of the strings on a violen, each makes its own vibrations when touched, making its own unique sound. Our universe is vibrating to its own unique wave and all that is in it does so as well, which puts us able to percieve only what is at our vibrational level within our own brane. As most of us believe in this forum, we have the capability to escape our physical body and percieve that which is greater. What I  believe this to be is the ability to percieve different levels of vibrations, hance different branes. Now this is a huge break through in the world of physics and thought, and there are two places in the world ( I forget where) that are running experements that run two hydrogen atoms at the speed of light in tunnels underground in hopes that they crash into eachother and make what is called anti-matter or another brane. (this may be confusing and I am not explaing it for all its worth) This is on the idea of the big bang, and how our own universe (brane) came to be. Anyway what scientist hope to find when doing this is the graviton (gravity) floating above and away from this newly formed brane. What this proves is that gravity is not pertainted to just our brane alone but is found in other branes, or possibly might be one of the forces that holds the whole loaf together and encompasses all the branes. Now what I think is possible and would be great to study is the idea of thoughts and human consciousness in relations to branes. Is there a way to find out if a level of consciousness floats beyond our brane? Wouldnt that be a amazing discovery for the human race to find out what exactly we are doing here? Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or have heard this before? I would love to get into research involving the human thought process in relations to our physical world and beyond. Just a quick thought and my understanding on a aspect of quantum physics :) Another great idea for this forum in better understanding physics it may be a good idea to have a sort of book club forum and read a book a month or something and discuss it on the forum to fuel questions, anwsers and great ideas.
Title: Quantum Metaphysics/Physics
Post by: GuardianMasterAngel on February 06, 2005, 12:33:26
Quantum Metaphysics/Physics is something that I find extremly interesting it proves that we have life beyond 3D, that we have spirits and souls.  :)
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Telos on February 06, 2005, 20:21:14
Quote from: GuardianMasterAngelQuantum Metaphysics/Physics is something that I find extremly interesting it proves that we have life beyond 3D, that we have spirits and souls.  :)

Just to clarify - No, unfortunately, it doesn't.

There is no evidence that connects quantum mechanics to consciousness, except that which is purely theoretical. The search is still on to find how quantum mechanics affects the brain, if at all.

You may not know this, but the overwhelming majority of quantum physicists believe that what they're studying has nothing to do with consciousness. Why is everyone so eager to believe that it does?

Personally, I feel you do not need physics to justify your experience, for physics is just another kind of experience.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on February 08, 2005, 11:05:37
Hello Telos,
QuoteThere is no evidence that connects quantum mechanics to consciousness, except that which is purely theoretical
Allow me please to disagree. A fundamental aspect of quantum mechanics is that the act of observing affects the outcome of a quantum experiments.  In other words, the consciousness of the observer interacts with the quantum process.

Quantum physics has also concluded that reality consists of an infinite number of "parallel universes".  We observe only one at a time, depending on our state of consciousness.

While this does not necessarily "prove" life after death, it does prove that there is a vast reality beyond the one that we experience physically, and this leads naturally to rather plausible explanations of spiritual knowledge.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Telos on February 08, 2005, 15:06:30
Quote from: JoWoHello Telos,
QuoteThere is no evidence that connects quantum mechanics to consciousness, except that which is purely theoretical
Allow me please to disagree. A fundamental aspect of quantum mechanics is that the act of observing affects the outcome of a quantum experiments.  In other words, the consciousness of the observer interacts with the quantum process.

Not directly. It's the act of measurement that affects the outcome of an experiment, and human consciousness is not necessary for measurement.

"Purely theoretically," doesn't mean "purely wrong." It just means there's lots more left for us to learn.

QuoteQuantum physics has also concluded that reality consists of an infinite number of "parallel universes".  We observe only one at a time, depending on our state of consciousness.

Quantum physics leaves the possibility of parallel universes open, but it is by no means conclusive. The Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is just one of many worthy theories. For a nice graph showing the similarities and differences of these interpretations, see this Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics

QuoteWhile this does not necessarily "prove" life after death, it does prove that there is a vast reality beyond the one that we experience physically, and this leads naturally to rather plausible explanations of spiritual knowledge.

You're right. What we don't know is large indeed! I'm very open-minded, I hope what I said does not sound like I'm shutting the book on the subject and consider the matter closed.

I bought a book by Jeffery Satinover called, "The Quantum Brain," and there was so much information on randomness and how it's used in models of learning. Only until halfway through the book did the author admit in a small series of paragraphs that there was no direct observation to show that the brain was utilizing quantum effects, and that we may never know anyways. His argument was mostly how such a brain could be constructed - as in, for a robotic race of AI's who would be massively superior to humans.

Not to enter this as a topic for argument, but the relationship between QM and consciousness is further confounded by how you interpret consciousness. If you start by saying, "everything that exists is consciousness," then you can't possibly be shown otherwise. You would have rewritten the dictionary to suit your needs for understanding (which may actually be a good idea.. who knows?).

Personally, I don't think studying QM is a good idea for understanding how one's subjective experience is applied to the world. There are more creative means of going about that. However, if you want to be an engineer and build stuff on the bleeding edge of technology, QM is the way to go!
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: GuardianMasterAngel on February 08, 2005, 16:24:18
Hi, Telos  :D
Actually, Yes it does prove that we have life beyond physical, ever heard of fractals?
Fractal reality relates to Quan phys, fractal reality is infinite change continuum, without Quantum physics we would have no scientific proof of the fourth dimension, and this dimension is what proves we have a spirit and soul.
Some narcotic drugs activate dormant parts of the brain, when a certain part is activated one is able to actually 'see' these fractals, but only the ones that relate to them.
Quantum physics dictates that we come in and out of existance, this does suggest, (perhaps not conclusively prove) but suggests that we do have a spirit and soul.
Regards,
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: JoWo on February 09, 2005, 21:41:39
Hi Talos,
You wrote:
QuoteIt's the act of measurement that affects the outcome of an experiment, and human consciousness is not necessary for measurement.
I would say that there is no measurement without human consciousness.  The act of measuring is an act of the human mind, acted out in physical reality.  The measurement represents a conscious effort to understand the nature of reality.  Without the human consciousness, there would be no measurement.
QuoteQuantum physics leaves the possibility of parallel universes open, but it is by no means conclusive. The Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is just one of many worthy theories.
Fair enough, Talos.  The Many-Worlds interpretation is a valid theory of quantum physics, but it is not the only one.  The point is, however, that some quantum physicists accept that consciousness affects quantum events.  Other physicists believe that consciousness "collapses the waveform" to form a particle.
However, I don't assume that we will resolve these issues here in this forum while the best scientists of the world can't agree on a common interpretation.  Rather, let me explain why I am convinced of the close interrelationship between our consciousness and the quantum world.
Decades ago, I had a dramatic enlightening experience of higher reality.  Ever since than I "know" that our physical reality is but one possible aspect of the underlying, true reality.  The "real" reality has untold more dimensions than our 3-D world, and we experience only one of infinite different aspects of true reality.  It is like snapping pictures of a tree from different angles.  It's always the same tree, but we can look at it from different angles.  So we "create many possible "parallel worlds" from one and the same multi-dimensional reality.  It's too much to explain here in this post, but if you are interested, you can read more about it in my website www.quantom-metaphysics.com or in my book, "Understanding the Grand Design".
In the 1970s, I came across Jane Roberts' channeled Seth books, and I was fascinated how Seth described this very same "mechanism" of our reality.  Throughout his many books, he keeps on repeating that true reality is multi-dimensional, and  "You create your own reality" by focusing on one of many possible aspects of that higher reality.  
The problem with quantum physics is that it makes no common sense to us.  The reason is that our common sense is faulty, not quantum reality.  The biggest obstacle to understanding "real' reality is this: physicists take it for granted that physical reality is the "real" reality and everything else must be understood in terms of our physical environment.  This view is upside-down.  The most fundamental base of all reality is the unified whole of Everything, which I call "All-Entity".  All other phenomena are limited aspects of this transcendent Whole.  
It is also necessary to have a clear understanding of how these limited aspects are related to the whole.  This is true for any whole, for instance the photon is the whole of its two aspects, wave and particle.
There is also some confusion about what is real and what is not.  For instance, the multiple-world interpretation is difficult to accept if you assume that all these infinite number of parallel universes must coexist. This problem disappears if we accept that "All-Entity" is the only truly "real reality" and everything else are more or less limited (lower-dimensional) aspects of It, like many different views off the same tree.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: Telos on February 28, 2005, 01:54:51
JoWo, I had read your article before. I posted a new topic with some of my thoughts. I have much more to say, but I think I wrote the gist of it.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17661
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: UniOne on April 14, 2005, 22:41:33
Hey... I may be new... but my research may help on this subject... Just go to Telos' link...
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: CelestineTruthSeeker on April 23, 2005, 20:02:18
Hello, people.  I'm new to this group of forums, but I saw the quote below and had to respond.  I think I like this guy Max Planck; that is one serious and to-the-point observation of Truth.  As far as I can see, it holds true not only in science but also in just about any other human endeavor as well, with the exception of religion.  Otherwise, a lot of old beliefs would have ceased to be so predominant a long time ago...

Namaste',
Don


Quote from: JoWo

Max Planck, the famous Nobel Prize winner in physics said: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: pmlonline on July 05, 2005, 12:26:21
Quote from: JoWoHi Talos,
You wrote:
QuoteIt's the act of measurement that affects the outcome of an experiment, and human consciousness is not necessary for measurement.
I would say that there is no measurement without human consciousness.  The act of measuring is an act of the human mind, acted out in physical reality.  The measurement represents a conscious effort to understand the nature of reality.  Without the human consciousness, there would be no measurement.

Very good!



Quote from: JoWo
QuoteQuantum physics leaves the possibility of parallel universes open, but it is by no means conclusive. The Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is just one of many worthy theories.
Fair enough, Talos.  The Many-Worlds interpretation is a valid theory of quantum physics, but it is not the only one.  The point is, however, that some quantum physicists accept that consciousness affects quantum events.  Other physicists believe that consciousness "collapses the waveform" to form a particle.

I don't recall the exact percentage, but a pole was taken amongst the scientists in the world, including Hawkings, and most now believe in the Many-Worlds Interpretation.  Hawkings and Feynman are but a few of the examples who believe in MWI.



Quote from: JoWoDecades ago, I had a dramatic enlightening experience of higher reality.  Ever since than I "know" that our physical reality is but one possible aspect of the underlying, true reality.  The "real" reality has untold more dimensions than our 3-D world, and we experience only one of infinite different aspects of true reality.  It is like snapping pictures of a tree from different angles.  It's always the same tree, but we can look at it from different angles.  So we "create many possible "parallel worlds" from one and the same multi-dimensional reality.  It's too much to explain here in this post, but if you are interested, you can read more about it in my website www.quantom-metaphysics.com or in my book, "Understanding the Grand Design".
In the 1970s, I came across Jane Roberts' channeled Seth books, and I was fascinated how Seth described this very same "mechanism" of our reality.  Throughout his many books, he keeps on repeating that true reality is multi-dimensional, and  "You create your own reality" by focusing on one of many possible aspects of that higher reality.

Good point.  Where you will find one consciousness you will find a reality.  There are countless worlds / realms in the Astral & Mental planes.  Each world / realm / place only exists because one or more beings thought it into existence.  There are many dead realms that appear very faded in color, where the plants are dying and actually disappearing.  This is a dead realm that is no longer needed.  An empty place where beings no longer live and go to.

Science found various experiments that display "Free Will."  Science used to think that every particle and energy wave could be tracked and followed.  So it was thought that the future was predetermined since the direction and velocity of everything was predictable.  Then came the great experiments such as the Double Slit experiment.  So now they see that if they shoot an electron that they cannot predict which path the electron will traverse.  They call that the Probability Wave.  To me, that wave is predictable if you know the group consciousness on that plane.
We believe that every particle and energy wave that is traveling at this very moment is uncertain.  Einstein despised QM because he refused to believe God rolled dice.  What Einstein didn't see was that GOD was the dice!  My definition of God is Group Consciousness of All Things.  If that's the case, then it is group consciousness that determines where a particle will traverse.  That's why some people such as Uri Geller can affect matter.  They learned how to focus their consciousness more than others.



Quote from: JoWo
The problem with quantum physics is that it makes no common sense to us.  The reason is that our common sense is faulty, not quantum reality.  The biggest obstacle to understanding "real' reality is this: physicists take it for granted that physical reality is the "real" reality and everything else must be understood in terms of our physical environment.  This view is upside-down.  The most fundamental base of all reality is the unified whole of Everything, which I call "All-Entity".  All other phenomena are limited aspects of this transcendent Whole.  
It is also necessary to have a clear understanding of how these limited aspects are related to the whole.  This is true for any whole, for instance the photon is the whole of its two aspects, wave and particle.

Very good.  Science has detected but a miniscule section of just our Cosmic plane alone.  In fact, science has barely stepped into the Etheric plane, which is still part of the Physical plane.  They have 6 more planes + our plane to go in our Cosmic plane.



Quote from: JoWo
There is also some confusion about what is real and what is not.  For instance, the multiple-world interpretation is difficult to accept if you assume that all these infinite number of parallel universes must coexist. This problem disappears if we accept that "All-Entity" is the only truly "real reality" and everything else are more or less limited (lower-dimensional) aspects of It, like many different views off the same tree.

If there are infinite beings / consciousness then there are infinite worlds.  If that's the case then that part of the MWI theory is correct.  I don't think MWI is remotely close in its interpretation though.  These worlds are merely created by group consciousness.  It is consciousness that is real.

I always said, In order to change yourself you must change the world.  That is why prayer and meditation are so important.  Prayer and meditation are many things.  One is that it is a way to believe and change your world as you so wish.  If you believe long enough then it will be.  Your reality is not necessary another's reality.  All beings may exist in their world and may also share their world with others.  :-)

Just believe and it will be so,
Paul
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: nakiannu on July 10, 2005, 02:28:36
In a nutshell, I think Quantum Physics demonstrates two important principles:  1) all matter is connected in ways that we don't understand yet &   2)  Our layer of reality is but one frequency, like layers of an onion.

At least thats what I get from it, in a nutshell.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: pmlonline on July 14, 2005, 11:42:43
In a nutshell QM can show humanity that to a certain level we have free will.  Hold your arm out in front of you.  Now decide to move your arm either left or right.  That is free will and according to QM there is no way to determine which direction you would have chose because all particles that are in motion have a probability wave.  Meaning, there is no human that could determine what path the particle would make.  When the particle collides with another particle then we get the collapse of the wave function, according to QM, and then you may know where the particle is, but the next instant that particle is once again in motion.  Einstein argued that God would not role dice, but what if God was the dice. ;-)  The "Many Worlds Interpretation" is very interesting and a good read, but perhaps not the full truth.
Title: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: marcelomjr on September 10, 2005, 01:44:23
"I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics."
- Feynman

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/HEISENBERG/Chapter1.html

Absurdities in Modern Physics: A Solution
 
           by Paul Marmet

1 - Promulgation of Absurdities
1-1 The Copenhagen Interpretation.

       All humans are continuously surrounded, every day of their life, by real facts of nature. We believe in the existence of galaxies, stars, the sun and the moon and the earth. Nobody denies the real existence of cities, streets, houses and all the objects that we see. We believe that the floor supporting our weight and the air that we breathe really do exist. When there is a car accident, in which a person is injured, who believes that the car did not exist before the collision! We believe that our mind becomes informed of these facts and it tries to understand all those realities. However, the Copenhagen interpretation used in modern physics teaches that none of this is real.
       There is another surprise. Many physicists are not aware that the interpretation of modern physics implies that matter does not exist independently of the observer. What is taught is that it is the observer's knowledge that creates the result. Of course, physics students have to study some interpretation of modern physics but [...]
Title: Re: Who Understands Quantum Metaphysics?
Post by: greggkroodsma on February 17, 2008, 11:12:02
Quote from: Adkha on April 05, 2004, 08:11:59
I think quantum metaphysics tells us that everything is connected with everything. It tells us that humans have limited thus physical  minds.

I have never had an OBE so I cant tell for sure that our mind extends beyond the physical....but I believe the manys stories I have read...

A question: How does the human mind stands in the whole picture of Quantum metaphysics??

Maybe a better phrase would be Quantum explanation of Metaphysics.
All of the particles at the Quantum level have been given a proper explanation. 
What creates the picture in you mind?!!!  What creates the neutrino?  And no it is not the same thing, but they are the same process.  Your thoughts create neutrinos.
What creates your thoughts?
How do ions react with each other?
What creates the photon?
Is the photon the opposite of a neutrino?