All those things they tell you about spirituality

[Rastus]

A lot of "spiritual" people are certified nutcases.  And I mean that in a demonic possession for your trouble kind of way.

First off, your higher self is you, there's no need to surrender to yourself, just talk to yourself and listen []

Surrending yourself to other "higher powers"?  No way.  Are you sure it's a higher power and not a lower one?  Enlightenment comes from understanding, with understanding there's no need for surrender.  These are the "smother you NEGs with Love" crowd, right?  Usually doesn't work, since NEG's don't experience the emotions we do.  It only works on the recently departed.

What your really looking for, I call "balance".  I also call it "centered".  In that I mean your physical, mental, and spititual parts are in balance and harmony.  Not always the easiest state to hit and hold, but you can try.  Sometimes you may hear "state of Grace", but that has other implications.  I can tell when I'm balanced, oddly enough because I don't get angry (even with the idiot drivers we have over here).  I seem to have a slight smile on at all times, and my inner monologue is quiet.  Maybe that's just me being me [?]

[Naiad780]

"A lot of "spiritual" people are certified nutcases."

Very true, and I have met my fair share of them!  Love 'n Light Brigade, indeed.  But for this post, I was talking about people I know and respect, or things you read in classic Zen books and such.  I was prompted to write this based on a quote by Alan Watts that I ran across today:  You don't need, as it were, to cling to yourself. Faith in yourself is not 'holding on' to yourself, but letting go.

"First off, your higher self is you, there's no need to surrender to yourself, just talk to yourself and listen []"

This is very helpful to remember, thanks, along with your mention of balance.  Funny, the other day I felt very calm and peaceful and did not curse at the idiot drivers we have over *here* and was thinking pretty much what you said

kj

[daem0n]

Rastus:
I don't think that's just you becouse i have recently achieved this state, but still have times when i surrender to emotions (for aproximetly from 1 to 30 seconds, sometimes up to minutes)
Naiad
the problem with the spiritually minded people is that they tell you what to do, but not how, mind you, surrending to the higher powers is BS, freedom comes with understanding, no surrending involved

[jilola]

Yeah, I agree that a lot of the spiritual talk is from nuts.
But in reading and receiving spiritual advice you have to remember to look behind the literal meaning.

"Letting go" of oneself and "not clinging to you" refer to lettign go the idea that you are immutable and unchangeable. It means that you should accept and embrace the fact that you, from moment to moment and experience to experience, change and that by clinging to any particular "you" is counterproductive.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Naiad780]

jilola, that's a good interpretation, thank you.

[daem0n]

jilola, i think there's more than that
everyone consists of sub-personalities that  change and strive between themselves to gain control, or band together to a common goal, but they are all ego all right
letting go of oneself means awareness of true nature of ego and mind, they are only tools that become goals, looking outside of them, beyond thoughts, we find inner peace that is our true nature, practising self-observation (activating part of you that doesn't judge, only is aware of what's going on in your mind and recognizes thoughts, low desires and such as irrelevant and ceasing)
i hope that's How to and not what to [}:)]

[daem0n]

when i say recognizes, i mean that they dissapear in the light of awareness, not by thinking this is so low, i shouldn't think that way couse it's ego through the back door

[Naiad780]

Daemon, that's good, too.  Now that I think about it, both of what you guys said is an essential part of chaos magic.  

"when i say recognizes, i mean that they dissapear in the light of awareness, not by thinking this is so low, i shouldn't think that way couse it's ego through the back door"

I think that's what I've been looking for.  Like you can't say "Today I'm going to be enlightened!"  It's a natural process that just happens when you reach that point and you don't have to keep criticizing yourself for not being enlightened enough.  That never works.

[jilola]

Daem0n: True. I was trying to be brief since too many words cloud the matter.

I disagree about the subpersonalities. My personal experience is that they are just different reflections of our self. One self, many reflections depending on the environment and your interaction with it and your self.

But I completely agree about ego being a tool. Againt that background the "letting go of oneself" becomes "letting go of one's insistence to hold the ego alone on the pedestal."

The concept we denote by "me" and "I" is the individual focus of our actual being. We are more tha  that and even that always changes. Clinging to the idea of immutable self is a root cause of our suffering. We need the focus to relate in the physical world but beyond that a fluid and malleable notion of self is the way to go.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[daem0n]

well, i never claimed that they are different from yourself, but these reflections fight over themselves when needed conditions occur,
and it involves another pitfall, struggling to become (showing off around girlfriend, for example), you are what you are, end of story, you don't like that, change it, speak about it or accept it, either way, give into it,
difference between expectations and reality cause suffering, and it is ego who expects, hopes for future (i've got no time for it now, but SOMEDAY i'll look into it) and reenacts past, this is all unnecessary, use your mind only when you have to

[mactombs]

Nice thread! I appreciate your comments, Rastus.

[jilola]

Daem0n: Yep. You didn't. But have you considered that since the reflections are of You then it's not the reflections that jockey for position but you yourself trying to fit and accommodate every expectation and outside influence without giving yourself the opportunity to be yourself.

quote:but these reflections fight over themselves when needed conditions occur,
and it involves another pitfall, struggling to become

Yes, the struggle is to become something or someone our environment expects. The solution is to be who we are, sincerely and to the best of our abilities.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Rastus]

I will sight Jilola's responce as the #1 reason for my extended depression.  The moment I stopped trying to be something else, and accepted myself for what I am, I snapped out of it.  That fast, as in days from fog to clear.  Granted I had some medicinal help to be lucid enough to figure this out, but we all know how well that works if the minds not willing to change!

(I need a jar for all those 2 cents)

[jilola]

Rastus: Yep. That's what the meds are for. Not to solve any problems but to give one a moment's respite to see clearly.

The change has to come from within. It cannot be forced. Unfortunately our society is geared toward seeking the truth from without and thus set to repeat the cycle of desperation and of being lost.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Rastus]

I take an incredible amount of abuse on a popular depression web-board for my attitude.  "It's a disease, it's not your fault", "I've been on meds for 5 years....", "I'm SOOOOOOOOOO unhappy", "I'm bi-polar, I'm on meds for life".

However, I am helping.  Every week 1 more "get's it".

Meds for lucidity, stop abusive behaviors (which include diet), lifestyle changes.  Maybe 1 in 10 will even consider it.  That's the reason for my question about Negs.  I'm refining my hypothesis for a paper "Normal, Abnormal, or Paranormal?" on depression.  

It was affecting my whole family.  When I went on Paxil my sons grades went from F to A (mostly).  Why?  Paxil made me Metaphysically numb, so I wasn't "broadcasting" as much.  My sife is currently the happiest I've ever seen her (although we haven't talked about this website, she is reading Roberts book on PSD).

This is related to the original post in the thread, since western medicine is so similiar to western religinon in how it ignores what it wants, is driven by $$$, and has an institutional mentality.

The future looks bright! []

[jilola]

quote:I take an incredible amount of abuse on a popular depression web-board for my attitude. "It's a disease, it's not your fault", "I've been on meds for 5 years....", "I'm SOOOOOOOOOO unhappy", "I'm bi-polar, I'm on meds for life".

Yep. The meds will not suffice. It takes a personal effort.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[daem0n]

yes, i thought about that, this is  mainly the result of conditioning we get through during growing up, i embraced all my aspects and they work for me now (some still straight out of line [}:)]), but i can wore masks without sacrificing part of myself, just stay centered in the essence(the real me) and watch the show, we must fit in the society or else we end up on meds (no harm meant rastus[]) or in psychiatric facility
when you know who you are there is no need to conform, but there is no struggle to prove yourself either

[LogoRat]

All of the sudden the concept New Age that every person use for nutcases are now Spirituality People. I dont get it.

lol, this is so f*&kedup.

Im spiritual, and ive never heard of those ideas you have mentioned like
"give up control to the higher powers", except in religions.

From my understanding we are all gods, we make our own choices, both in this life and the existance beyond.

Those ideas you say you have been given from spiritual minded people.. it seems as if you cant separate religious people from spiritual people.

For me, beeing spiritual is to be free and open minded.
To be more than just a robotic entity.
To be interrested in the world outside the physical dimension.
To explore new territory and to figure out the understanding and meaning of existance.

Ease up on the old use of words please, Thx Stephen

[Naiad780]

Please don't make assumptions that I cannot tell the religious from the spiritual.  You are grossly mistaken.

Each spiritually-minded person is different, but many of them share common ideas.  Several people I know share the idea I was talking about in the original post.  If you have different ideas, then good for you.

[daem0n]

what's the point of your point ??
the phrase: "give up control to the higher powers" was classified as BS if i remember correctly, it's a matter of choice, anyway

[halfphased]

People often have a hard time saying what they mean.  Obviously, there are many reasons for this.  Maybe a better sentence would be "Stop trying to control" and "understand that you are not this limiting ego personality, but rather something a whole lot... (well, any discription I can think of seems to be wrong in some way)  suffice to say you are not this limiting ego personality and some people would imply that you are some sort of "higher power" but I don't think I would describe it like that."

I mean you deffinetely don't want anyone else to control you and I think ultimately you find that all talk of higher powers is nonsensical.  Although, through a certain lense it appears to make sense, I think that with a clearer perception you will see how it is distorted.

*does a million backflips*  whee

[daem0n]

that's the whole point, you can't describe becouse there are no words for it, you can't understand it, becouse it goes beyond thoughts (which are based on words..), people trying to show the way wrote hundreds of pages, and still it is treshold, if you really feel what's going around you are silent
the problem is that people want remedy to ease pain, not to cure the illness, or at least make it short, on sentence to enlightenment, please, LOL
if i tell you you have to die to reach that state, you won't understand me, becouse the word life means different things to you and me, abandon memories, live in the now, it's better but now i have to decribe abandoning and living in the now, breake it into another concepts, and it would end up as a big book with "no guarantee" on it
i can recommend some books, though
"Awakening" de Molle
"The inward revolution" Deborah Benstead and Storm Constantine
"the power of now" Eckhart Tolle
still, no guarantee

[Kenneth]

Hello Naiad780,

I just wrote a little something about my experiences with my own self-development, perhaps it can give you some hints and pointers to your questions ?

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14031

Kind regards,

Kenneth

[aninfinity1717]

**tears

Thank you. This thread came to me in the time of need.

[Naiad780]

I always hear spiritually-minded people telling me to "let go of myself" and they tell me to "give up control to the higher powers" and "lay down your pride" and such.  I have never been able to do this and recently it occurred to me why that is.

For a long time, I had low self-esteem.  I believed I wasn't worth much, that love was conditional on me being perfect, that I was always wrong and lacking in pretty much everything.  And in the last few years it occurred to me that hey, that's a load of BS.  I am good, worthwhile, and I can take care of myself and be in control of my own life. This attitude switch has been enormously helpful to me and I'm miles away from where I used to be.

So when I read or am told to let go of myself, let go of ego, let go of pride, it's really difficult seeing how I only recently attained a healthy level of these things.  I don't want to let go of myself--I only just got hold of me.  I don't want to let go of my ego and pride--for so many years I never felt proud of myself, never felt like I was good and now I do.  For so many years I let someone else have control of me and now I don't want to give up control to anyone, higher power or not.

Not sure what I should do.  There must be a middle ground somewhere, but I'm not sure where it is.