Ethical Question regarding Torture

[Fresco]

Okay, lets say hypothetically you have a POW in custody.
This POW knows where the next 9/11 is about to take place. Only problem is he's not talking.

Do you have an ethical obligation to torture this POW to get intel on where and how the next 9/11 will take place?? Or will you receive negative karma for torturing that POW??

Keep in mind, by using torture on one person, you could save the lives of a few thousand innocent people.

So please vote, and state your opinion why or why not

[Taoistguy]

It's hypothetical. I would not take POW's. But, then again, there are other ways to get them to talk without torture.

[NoY]

torture is absolutely not the way i ever go id rather kill them quickly than sink to that level
when you travel to some of the darkest places where the entire reality is pain and the sick ones doing it you know it should never be you

regarding the next 911 .... people die

:NoY:

[Fresco]

Is it also not unethical to let that many people die in another 9/11??

[NoY]

again... people die 

:NoY:

[catmeow]

Information obtained under torture is notoriously unreliable. A person being tortured will say anything to stop the pain.  Regarding the question in the OP, you have no way of knowing that your captive actually has the information you are seeking. But he will tell you what he thinks you want to hear, regardless of whether he actually has the information, to stop the torture.  I believe that the actual reason torture is used, is not because it works, but because the captors get sadistic pleasure from it. I don't think it works. So I wouldn't use it. That was a logical argument, no ethics involved. Very clear pragmatic answer. Don't torture.

Now, if we could be 100% certain that we would get 100% accurate info, in that case, it's a tougher dilemma. Ethically I'm opposed to torture, but if it was certain to save many lives, then I would sanction it. But truth is, it doesn't work. So it can not be justified. I vote no.

[Fresco]

Now, if we could be 100% certain that we would get 100% accurate info, in that case, it's a tougher dilemma. Ethically I'm opposed to torture, but if it was certain to save many lives, then I would sanction it

That was my point though.  Lets assume he knew everything, and we could then prevent another 9/11.

I would also like to know if there would be any negative karma attached to torture in this particular case.  To the people doing the torture, and to the ones who ordered the torture

[Xanth]

Rise above the level of the physical for a second... or another way to put it is to step back from the physical for a second...

Now ask the question again and try to answer it from that perspective.

What's the *ONLY* part of your question that really matters?

[Fresco]

Rise above the level of the physical for a second... or another way to put it is to step back from the physical for a second...

Now ask the question again and try to answer it from that perspective.

What's the *ONLY* part of your question that really matters?

That it doesnt matter if thousands of people die in another 9/11 (since you cant really die anyways)??

[Xanth]

That it doesnt matter if thousands of people die in another 9/11 (since you cant really die anyways)??

That's part of it, yeah.  Nothing ever REALLY dies.  What humanity calls death is a misunderstanding.

It all boils down the interactions between consciousnesses.  And that's something that is entirely non-physical.

[rain_88]

Is it also not unethical to let that many people die in another 9/11??

Maybe those people did choose to die that way. To experience an event like that. IMO ethics is just another artifical tool for people to reassure themselves about reality being the way how they perceive it. So would you "sacrifice" one person to "save" thousands? In this case, to keep thousand from fulfilling their purpose in physical life ?

[majour ka]

Just putting it out there...even though I doubt I could torture someone they have already drawn that karma to themselves by planning plotting and organising the mass murder of thousands of innocent people, so I would suggest that the person needing to extract the info might forgo the karmic debt...therefore saving innocent lives seems the priority and the lesser of the two evils.

[majour ka]

Why you ask fresco, have you got a prisoner locked up? 

[Dreamshards]

I thought it was funny that "ethical" and "torture" was used in the same topic.

[Stillwater]

That was my point though.  Lets assume he knew everything, and we could then prevent another 9/11.

I think Xanth is right here, take a step back-

What makes you think that it isn't practices like mass POW torture that inspire 9/11 events to begin with?

You can't fight barbarism with barbarism, unless you want to be a barbarian too; and if so, you are stepping into a brimming arena.

[zareste]

He might not actually know about the oncoming attacks. If he doesn't, then torturing him will just cause him to say something fake to make you stop. If he does, in fact, know about the attacks, then torturing him might drive him to give you fake leads. The number of people likely to give you genuine information because of torture is very small, and you're bound to get so much disinformation that it's probably not worth it. I think the people who use torture are doing it out of irrational emotion and an animalistic urge to feel superior.

For a long time I also debated the idea of torture as a fear technique, telling the enemy 'this is what will happen to you if we catch you', but ultimately that seemed counter-productive. A lot of the people who work for criminal groups don't even want to work for the criminals, or are willing to change if their safety is guaranteed, so, if I were in charge of an organization that deals with criminals, I would offer POWs a job with us (although they would have to be brain-chipped and supervised at all times) and those who won't comply are executed in a swift manner.

[Bedeekin]

I wrote a short film that had the protagonist psychologically torture somebody to extract information by creating an elaborate fake torture/death that the 'tortured' guy was made to watch. He was shown the truth - that it was theatrical - when he had finally given the correct information.

[Fresco]

Why you ask fresco, have you got a prisoner locked up? 

I do, and his name is the Gimp.  But he's sleeping right now.


(no homo)

[Stillwater]

That makes me think of Pulp Fiction...

[rain_88]

Yeah... Could you tell us please what exactly he is wearing now?

[Xanth]

I think we're getting a bit off topic here folks.  Let's bring it back please. 

[majour ka]

Can we hypnotise the terrorist instead?

[rain_88]

Where exactly is the torture part in that one?

Making him put on that leather stuff - now that's what I call torture  ...

(Okay, I'm finished.)

[Mini stapler]

Unthinkable - a film you might like to watch that confronts this...  Unless you watched the film & that's why you made this thread... meh.