Evil = Ignorance?

[Tisha]

I don't want to fall into the organized religion = fear = evil trap!  We could go on and on and on and on about organized religion, it's good and bad characteristics.  But it would make for a boring post, if you ask me - - - maybe because I've hung around for too long, I don't know . . . . !

But you are definitely on to something . . . we all tend to call things we don't understand "evil."  The mouse thinks the cat is evil.  The cat just thinks the mouse is lunch.

When it comes to the occult . . . well, just think, "occult" means "hidden."  If it is "hidden," then it must be scary, and it must be evil.

Some who spend a lot of time on the psychic defense forum will swear that there is such a thing as "pure evil."  Maybe there really is, but then again maybe not!  The jury is out on that one . . . . I don't think anyone can prove or disprove it.

Maybe something feels "evil" because it is dark, and we've been taught to associate dark with evil.  Maybe we call it "evil" because it is sucking our energy and making us sick.  Bad for us, but good for it - - - - so how does that make it evil?

Personally, I say it's all relative. I reconcile the uncertainy over the true nature of evil by admitting that, although everything in the universe is as it should be, some things are truly bad for ME, and if I want to throw those things in my "evil" basket that's my perogative.  I know what I mean when I say it.  Certain energy forms are EVIL because they suck my energy and deplete me and make me feel sick and tired.  OK, I know that on some level they're just doing what comes natural, but I just don't care - - - they're bad for me, so they're bad.  So there . . . .http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>



Tisha

"As Above, So Below"

[Gandalf]

Cheers, Tisha,
I wasnt wanting to get into the organised religion thing either, I just used that as an example...
It was more the ignorance vs knowledge thing.
This is what I would define as 'evil' as its results are not very pleasant to experience...
as far as 'pure evil goes', such as achetypl evil..
Im not really sure about that, as you say, sure you can get some pretty nasty beings out there, driven by spite... just as in the material world..
Hannibal Lector example (ok he's not real but you know what I mean!) .. I would class him as 'evil' as he wishes to do me harm for his own pleasure, so I stay away from him..
But he's not doing all these horrible things because 'he wants to be evil', he is just satisfying his own base desires and beleives there is nothing wrong with doing so, even if it involves murder and suffering, or because it involves murder and suffering..... perhaps as a form of rebellion... perhaps he sees that there are in fact no moral rules whatsoever and he can do anything.... his murders are therefor a way of expressing this fact.
What I think stems from this is ignorance.. ignorance on Hannibal's part...

Unless of course we believe the existentialist viewpoint that there are in fact no moral groundrules at all and we can in fact do what ever we want without consequence? In this case Hannibal is simply expressing himself as he sees fit, without consequence apart from societies view of him.
I dont' see how this can be possible...

Douglas

[James S]

I have been raised with the notion of good & evil, God & Satan, light & dark. I stopped to consider it from something other than a biblical perspective and came to the belief that it is all just perspective.

I wouldn't necessarily call ignorance evil, I would however call it idiocy. People have a choice when it comes to lack of understanding - they can either open their minds and learn about something, or they can close their minds and become ignorant. The latter, I feel, is not really evil, it's just plain stupid. I've always detested deliberate ignorance in people.

Back to the evil bit, I'm pretty much in agreement with Tisha here. The cat & mouse is a good example. People have often looked upon predatory behaviour as being evil, and the poor little prey as being good. The predator doesn't think this way though. To it this is just the way things are, a matter of survival. I imagine the "evil" forces many people have encountered are also just predators trying to survive. I don't think this means we should act kindly towards them, but I no longer feel inclined to hang every one of my problems on some force of evil.

Here's an interesting thought....in a war between knowledge and ignorance, would not knowledge be the predator?

James.

[kakkarot]

for myself, i define evil as "helping yourself at the expense of another" and good as "helping another at the expense of yourself".

this really doesn't have anything to do with knowledge, but maybe it will help your discussion along in some manner. []

~kakkarot

[DjM]

Gandalf- I agree wholeheartedly with you.  Particularly about "fearing change," which makes absolutely no sense in the world of constant change!  We have lost abilities that we once had; can no longer read the Truths of the universe through nature.  You are absolutely correct- WE MUST GO TO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD!

Do you know what keeps people away?  It's probably those few passages in the Bible that mention Astrology, numbers, geometry, etc...  People believe that they should know NOTHING about the Spiritual World or they are damned because they can transpose that part (it's literal).  Ask them same ones to tell you about the Mystery of Gogotha or interperet a parable and the conversation goes South.

I recogognize God's wisdom and love every tidbit, but I do NOT believe that God wanted us to avoid everything that reveals Himself to us!  I couldn't understand the Bible, until I studdied sacred geometry, number, astrology, etc...  NOW, I have a greater appreciation for all living things.  FYI: that's called the POWER OF LOVE which is the essence of Jesus Christ.  Go figure!

Gee, do you think that the fact that the RC curch had the Bible under lock and key from around 300 A.D. until 1749 contributed to this?  After all, all their churches are aligned with the stars (i.e. astronomy/astrology) and their churchs incorporate every form of sacred geometry that one can find.  (This must be the- WE can do it, but YOU cannot policy.)

Ignorance is, in fact, the veil.

Remember: Jesus Christ only showed His anger when dealing with the Hierarchies of the current churches.  They had obscurred the Truth and practiced black magic...you'd think Atlantis would have taught us something?

[Celeste]

Welcome Djm
I'm really enjoying your posts!
Celeste

[DjM]

Celeste,

Thank you for your kind words.  Giving and receiving are the same.  Ergo, I appreciate that you "have an ear."

"To spend oneself in matter is to grind down souls.
To find oneself in the spirit is to unite human beings.
To see oneself in all humanity is to construct worlds."  (R Steiner)

I love you all.

[assia]

Interesting discussion, Gandalf.

Thought about it a bit myself over time and still wouldn't venture a defnitive answer, but I'm inclined to think evil, like love, is an act of the will and has nothing to do with ingnorance and knowledge. The most ignorant person can choose to love.  The most knowledgable person can choose to harm someone else.

Humans all act "from the good," meaning they believe they are doing the right thing. The question, though, is whether we wish good for ourselves only through selfishness, or the good of ourselves through choosing the good for others as well.

In Hannibal Lector's case, the character was not ignorant of his choices and what they meant. He was, in fact, highly intelligent and had his own (perhaps warped) sense of morality.  However, I believe he viewed his needs as superceeding those of his victims.  His will, his choice, was turned towards his needs and wants alone.

I've come to believe that all life can be described by a bell curve. Two extremes where 10% of the population fall at either end, and the vast majority of people fall somewhere in the middle.  In the case of evil, I would describe this as what direction and degree a person turns toward or away from selfishness.

10% are turned completely away from their own needs; in fact, their need is to serve others through the conscious choice to love--the saints of the world, the Ghandis and MLKs and Christs.

Another 10% turn absolutely toward their own needs and desires with no consideration of "the other" at all--the Hitlers and Lectors.

Most of us, to varying degrees at different times fall prey to selfishness, but try for the most part to do what's good for ourselves by considering others.

So, for me, it all comes back to free will--something I saw discussed in another topic, so I apologize if it's out of place here.  The direction and incilnation of our will (what we choose, our general disposition toward self and others) is the central feature of evil, not our knowledge or lack of it.

Either we're turned toward ourselves, or we are turned toward "the Other."  True evil exists only when the will is entirely turned away from the good of others.  Pretty rare, imo, but very real.

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by assia
True evil exists only when the will is entirely turned away from the good of others.  Pretty rare, imo, but very real.

Assia - this is very good!
This discussion has been raised in the topic "The nature of evil" in the General Metaphysics section, and has produced a few varying opinions. Its not at all strightforward as some might think. Your comment really adds a lot of clarity to an otherwise murkey subject.

Thanks for the thoughts,
James.

[Gandalf]

I was wanting to sound out people's opinions about the nature of evil here..
I know from previous discusions, opinion is divided.. some say that good and evil are simply human constructs only..
I think it comes down to what you define 'evil' as:
For me there is indeed such a thing as 'evil'
For me evil is ignorance. From ignorance stems all delusion, fear, hate misunderstanding etc.
To say that it is a human proplem is quite true. All the problems of our world today are stemmed in ignorance and fear... so to say that out world is ruled by evil is a true statement as far as I can see.
'Good' on the other hand is enlightenment and understanding as well as love.

Therefor the ideas of a constant battle between good and evil is not a concept to just be dismissed as I feel there is indeed a struggle between 'knowedge' and 'ignorance' in our world.

The problem is made worse by those who have *some* knoweldge, not enough to make them reach for any form of enlightenment but rather to fear it.
They would rather keep the world the way it is because they fear change in any form. Crowely's statement 'a little knoweledge is dangerous' is quite true in this case.

Some of these 'forces of ignorance' are very powerful..
Adrian has pointed out the idea that those in the higher astral realms may have decided against their old policy of trying to bring enlightenment down here to our level and now the idea is for us to go to them, hence the upsurge in interest in OBE, astal exploration and so on...
In this case the forces of ignorance (inc conservitive religious groups etc) would view that as a definate threat... however, these ideas are now reaching such a high audience now (with the advent of the internet) meaning that hopefully they will be able to do little to stop it despite atempts to discredit it.

BTW I am not a conspiracy nut in any way, its just that it has been my observation that in our world there is a definate stuggle between knowedge and ignorance and that there are those who know that there is 'something more' out there and they fear it as they fear any kind of change... the major religions are particuarily prone to this.

Regards,
Douglas