So,i was thinking.is it possible for a soul/spirit/ghost,whatever,to commit Spiritual suicide? that is to end ones Spiritual Immortality?
can a powerful spirit kill another weaker spirit,or the 'source'is the only one with sufficient power to destroy a soul?
or the only way to meet final death is by asking the source to kill it?
thanks for the responses :smile:
so is it possible for a soul to die? interesting idea, i think maybe it could be converted but not die, tbh honest would you want to?!??!?!??!?!
would you really like to stop existing?
hehehe if you didn't exist then it wouldn't matter if you liked it or not :lol:
lol
Quote from: Greenratso is it possible for a soul to die? interesting idea, i think maybe it could be converted but not die, tbh honest would you want to?!??!?!??!?!
would you really like to stop existing?
:lol: Andrew.
I'm just curious about free will.
i see people talk allot about free will.so it got me thinking.
what is real free will but the ability to decide between living forever or final,everlasting death.
and converted in what way? and into what?
maybe at the point of death or in the extreme event of astral projection, a "negs" as they are called here may be able to convert you to be one of them. This of course would only happen if your spiritual self would pose a threat the negs in question which would need a hell of alot of power to change the essence of your soul. A near impossible occurrence indeed.
also it is possible if you have lead a good enough life, to choose to return to the source and have your soul totally broken down and remade anew with no record of karma or previous life. This also would change the essence of your soul.
Supposedly it is possible to have your soul broken down and not be remade thereby you are wiped from existence. But still a new soul would be made in replacement to the obliterated one.
Ah hope is rising up withing my heart ! :)
Quote from: loppoppy
Supposedly it is possible to have your soul broken down and not be remade thereby you are wiped from existence. But still a new soul would be made in replacement to the obliterated one.
sketchy idea there...
i think non-existence is the highest state of being. the goal of life.
this whole game is about breaking down ones individual soul.
Quote from: GreenratQuote from: loppoppy
Supposedly it is possible to have your soul broken down and not be remade thereby you are wiped from existence. But still a new soul would be made in replacement to the obliterated one.
sketchy idea there...
i think non-existence is the highest state of being. the goal of life.
.
I agree with you 100%
Quote from: GreenratQuote from: loppoppy
Supposedly it is possible to have your soul broken down and not be remade thereby you are wiped from existence. But still a new soul would be made in replacement to the obliterated one.
sketchy idea there...
i think non-existence is the highest state of being. the goal of life.
this whole game is about breaking down ones individual soul.
I agree with you to the extent that I cannot see a difference between 'returning to the source' which is usually the ultimate goal of most peoples spiritual philosophies, and oblivion of self.
If i'm honest the idea of obivion is at least as scary as the idea of living for eternity.
the idea of oblivion brings me unimaginable joy,while the idea of living forever causes me pain and stress. :lol:
If the source is all consciousness, then wouldn't you returning to the source imply that you have just achieved the highest state of consciousness, and thus not cease to exist, you'd just be consciousness itself?
Also, the idea of "living forever", this slogan is attached to time-space terms, in the afterlife there is so such thing as pain and stress, these are all human biological feelings.
you mean,i'd become 'god' himself? doesn't appeal to me.
Quote from: DonalIf the source is all consciousness, then wouldn't you returning to the source imply that you have just achieved the highest state of consciousness, and thus not cease to exist, you'd just be consciousness itself?
The individual which is you (ego), would be gone. That is the equivalent of oblivion. Without individual awareness to reflect on your condition and state, there is nothing (to the individual). Consciousness might survive on the greatest scale, but perhaps it is as Castaneda said, that we are simply food for the Eagle. Monroe's experience seemed to indirectly reflect this; his experience of the aperture and people gaining their parts as gifts for whatever lay beyond the aperture, was remarkably similar to Castaneda idea of us bloating ourselves with experience and knowledge to be devoured by the source.
Quote
Also, the idea of "living forever", this slogan is attached to time-space terms, in the afterlife there is so such thing as pain and stress, these are all human biological feelings.
I like the idea of there being no pain and stress, but this doesn't explain negs, demons, hells, karma etc. People might say the negative emotions experienced from the aforementioned are illusion, but if illusion causes the same pain and distress as their real counterparts, that doesn't help much :smile:. I wonder why only the negative things are considered illusion and not the good things too – although I would bet because the good things 'feel' better :wink:.
i'd say it's all an illusion created by 'leech' entities to suck off the knowledge we gain trough sveral lifetimes.
Quote from: El-Bortukaliyou mean,i'd become 'god' himself? doesn't appeal to me.
i think god is an overused term and made to seem more abstract than it needs to be.
everything is god and god is everything so yes you'd become everything, but more like the place from which anything is possible.
i beleive once we realise ourself on "gods" level, we'll realise how simple it was all along.
QuoteI like the idea of there being no pain and stress, but this doesn't explain negs, demons, hells, karma etc. People might say the negative emotions experienced from the aforementioned are illusion, but if illusion causes the same pain and distress as their real counterparts, that doesn't help much . I wonder why only the negative things are considered illusion and not the good things too – although I would bet because the good things 'feel' better .
Pain and stress are not caused by outside things, but our own perspective and feelings of the outside things. This also works with good emotions. And just like it's not good to sulk and feel self pity, it can be easy to be overly-happy and excited about things. That's when people can become materialistic and selfish, only caring about their own happiness.
Our emotions aren't "us", but part of our concepts attached to perception. I don't think it's good to suppress any emotions, but understand what actually causes them and change that. It is possible.
of course it is.ever heard of pills? :P
Quote from: Stookie
Pain and stress are not caused by outside things, but our own perspective and feelings of the outside things.
Oh, I know this :smile:. To use a quote:
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It is as if a man is hit by one arrow, and then by a second arrow; he feels the pain of two arrows. So it is with the untrained layman; when touched by a painful bodily feeling, he experiences two kinds of feeling, a bodily one and a mental one. But the well-trained disciple, when touched by a painful bodily feeling, weeps not. He feels only one kind of feeling: a bodily one, not a mental one. It is as if a man is hit by one arrow, but not by a second arrow; he feels the pain of one arrow only. So it is with the well-trained disciple; when touched by a painful bodily feeling, he feels but one feeling, bodily pain only.
But in the physical plane, it seems that the source of the pain could be 'external' to ourselves, but we have the choice of how we respond to it internally.
Quote
This also works with good emotions. And just like it's not good to sulk and feel self pity, it can be easy to be overly-happy and excited about things. That's when people can become materialistic and selfish, only caring about their own happiness.
Our emotions aren't "us", but part of our concepts attached to perception. I don't think it's good to suppress any emotions, but understand what actually causes them and change that. It is possible.
I agree with the above too. I guess my point was that it is not as simple as acknowledging pain and hurt are internally generated, they don't go away with such a realisation. Also, if someone has no concepts of such things, if caught in a world of pain (in the physical or astral), the fact that it might be an illusion would bring them no comfort.
I personally think that ultimately there is no 'good' or 'bad', just personal interpretation of (indifferent) events based upon currently held belief systems. Although it does seem that the brain is wired to create discomfort (pain) under certain conditions.
so,happiness,joy,etc they are illusions such as pain,despair etc?
forgive me for replying late to a previous question. and also forgive me for not being clear enough. Only someone who has attained such a high level of consciousness has the right to choose existence or not...and by saying "wiped from existence" I mean totally no consciousness is left your totally gone.
If every single emotion was illusion then in the afterlife you would feel them no more. I heard that the higher planes and the afterlife were filled with peace, love and contentment, if I'm not mistaken they are emotions.
Quote from: loppoppy
If every single emotion was illusion then in the afterlife you would feel them no more. I heard that the higher planes and the afterlife were filled with peace, love and contentment, if I'm not mistaken they are emotions.
This was the point of my question :smile:. Regardless of emotions being illusions or not, perhaps the afterlife is filled with the 'good' emotions simply because they are 'good'. Perhaps we haven't moved past the belief systems of emotions in our explorations, so we still maintain this idea of love and goodness permeating everything. But, if we moved passed the human perspective areas, things would be different (such as experiencing emotions we have no human-perception of).
Something we should consider is that firstly, the views we have of the afterlife and spiritual planes are pretty much human-centric. Humans are an absolutely minute part of the totality of creation. What if all the explorers and spiritual gurus have simply been exploring the spiritual planes closest to our own (human) perspective? What of those other countless races and sentient forms in and outside of the physical (and possible countless other physical universes)? Each of these would have their own astral locales, heavens, hells and philosophies of creation.
well now that is a pickle. Even if someone had reached these higher planes of existence outside the comprehension of the physical mind, they would still not be able to explain such a thing to those around them. The only way to find out the answer is to experience it yourself.
You are correct it is shocking how small humans are in the scale of things which are not even on a scale as they are endless...:S.
Just imagine how spectacular it would be to not only extend yourself beyond the comprehension of mankind, but also be able to travel to those other countless planes beyond the comprehension of even the highest life form. Now thats farfetched.
Quote from: loppoppyforgive me for replying late to a previous question. and also forgive me for not being clear enough. Only someone who has attained such a high level of consciousness has the right to choose existence or not...and by saying "wiped from existence" I mean totally no consciousness is left your totally gone.
If every single emotion was illusion then in the afterlife you would feel them no more. I heard that the higher planes and the afterlife were filled with peace, love and contentment, if I'm not mistaken they are emotions.
why does that it has to do with 'the right'? before that 'transformation' don't have the power to do it?
and why can i only die after achieving that status?
and what powers,abilities,etc do i gain if i achieve that state?
because i think the ultimate meaning of life is to reach this level of conciousness, only once this has been achieved can you just stop existing if that is your choice. We are bound to this world until we can break free from it either through ascention or death, but only with ascention have we proven that we have outgrown the physical world entirely and therefore have the choice of how we wish to exist.
your next question was what powers or abilities would you gain. With ascention and enlightenment comes the ultimate understanding and knowledge of everything around you. Also your mind will no longer interfere with your actions or with anything that the mind first thought as impossible. What you could do is only limited by your imagination or the right energies needed to complete certain tasks. All it would take is time and training.
interesting idea.. i have thought about similar situations. my question isn't always death but life itself. do we chose who we are before we are born.. for some reason i think we do.. but i mean if it is possible to chose our life can we chose our death? i sometimes feel like I'm dieing before my failed attempts at AP.. i hear a sound and my breathing changes and the sound feels like is circling around me and i feel like I'm supposed to let go.. stop breathing stop feeling my heart beat.. but my problem is if it feels like death.. how can i possibly let go and accept death? this is one major block i seem to have when i comes to a conscious AP
no,its impossible. spiritual evolution is forever.
Why is that??
Hi everyone. Interesting discussion. I find it increasingly difficult to find a worthwhile discussion to respond to in here so thanks for the opportunity.
Quote from: loppoppy on May 27, 2006, 17:22:14
well now that is a pickle. Even if someone had reached these higher planes of existence outside the comprehension of the physical mind, they would still not be able to explain such a thing to those around them. The only way to find out the answer is to experience it yourself.
You are correct it is shocking how small humans are in the scale of things which are not even on a scale as they are endless...:S.
Just imagine how spectacular it would be to not only extend yourself beyond the comprehension of mankind, but also be able to travel to those other countless planes beyond the comprehension of even the highest life form. Now thats farfetched.
Thing is, at those higher levels, "someone" doesn't exist. Individuality fades and becomes a feeling of unity as you reach higher levels of consciousness. This is why any Master will laugh at you if you ask the question, "Are you enlightened?" Because the master has an intimate understanding that the more intimate you become with yourself (your True and GodSelf) the less you cling to your individuality because your understanding of the expansiveness of your Being is realized.
Those other "countless planes" are also illusion. The illusion was created so there is something to experience. Without the illusion there would be no experience at all, just perfect everything/nothing and lack of space and time. The illusion is comprised of space and time and is witnessed through perception. The individual is merely a minute perspective viewpoint within space and time. Without these perspective viewpoints, the illusion would cease to exist.
Quote from: loppoppy on December 17, 2006, 14:49:28
because i think the ultimate meaning of life is to reach this level of conciousness, only once this has been achieved can you just stop existing if that is your choice. We are bound to this world until we can break free from it either through ascention or death, but only with ascention have we proven that we have outgrown the physical world entirely and therefore have the choice of how we wish to exist.
your next question was what powers or abilities would you gain. With ascention and enlightenment comes the ultimate understanding and knowledge of everything around you. Also your mind will no longer interfere with your actions or with anything that the mind first thought as impossible. What you could do is only limited by your imagination or the right energies needed to complete certain tasks. All it would take is time and training.
Loppoppy, I seem to be drawn to responding to your posts :)
Enlightenment is not knowledge and understanding. It is the release of learned knowledge. Also, individuality is entirely ego so "you" can't just choose to stop anything. That would imply independent volition and that "you" are separate from the Whole. "You" are not an individual, "You" are the Whole and "you" are All of everything. It is only your perceptual awareness that makes you think you are an individual with independent volition. "Everything around you" is still illusion. Indeed everything is limited by your imagination but enlightenment comes with a "Letting go" of everything you perceive to be true and as a friend of mine says, "Flow with the go." IOW, just flow and give up any need to control.
Great discussion here
haha i'm always reading back on my previous posts and seeing how i was wrong. You guys always have a way of making me a better person. I'm not great with forums and find it hard to get my opinions across but i appreciated people correcting me it always makes me laugh. thanks again just thought i'd mention.
Quote from: Lighthouse on February 17, 2007, 07:45:52
Enlightenment is not knowledge and understanding. It is the release of learned knowledge.
Enlightenment is a mans emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity.
-AM
Quote from: Awakened_Mind on February 17, 2007, 22:29:14
Enlightenment is a mans emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity.
-AM
Okay and what does that mean to you?
Quote from: Lighthouse on February 18, 2007, 16:01:06
Okay and what does that mean to you?
What a strange question.
-AM
Is it? You call yourself "Awakened Mind" this question should not be so strange for you if this is true. So, I'll ask it again. You are claiming that enlightenment is a persons emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity. What does that statement mean to you? IOW What is "a person" what is "emergence" what is "self incurred-immaturity"?
You and me are persons.
Emergence - the process of coming into being.
Self-incurred immaturity - when we know better, but we fail to act.
For the record, I call myself Hayden. Awakened_Mind is a display name I found appropriate upon registration that people on these forums call me.
Secondly, it is still a strange question. You are not really asking "what it means to me" you are asking "what does that mean?". Don't you think? I am well aware of what it means to me, because I said it. Unless you are saying that you know what I meant more than I do? Which would be even more peculiar.
-AM
Quote from: Awakened_Mind on February 20, 2007, 07:28:45
You and me are persons.
Emergence - the process of coming into being.
Self-incurred immaturity - when we know better, but we fail to act.
For the record, I call myself Hayden. Awakened_Mind is a display name I found appropriate upon registration that people on these forums call me.
Secondly, it is still a strange question. You are not really asking "what it means to me" you are asking "what does that mean?". Don't you think? I am well aware of what it means to me, because I said it. Unless you are saying that you know what I meant more than I do? Which would be even more peculiar.
-AM
Actually, I was asking "what it means to you" because everything we think, feel, experience is a result of our perceptual awareness and I was trying to find out how that looked from your pov. I would not proclaim that you could tell me what it means to "me" so thereofore I didn't ask you "what it means." To ask you that would imply that your perception was the ultimate authority for ALL... it's not, it is merely a perspective. Since we experience the world through our perceptual awareness, "What does that mean to you?" is really the only valid question to ask since the meaning from your pov and the meaning from my pov will be different. BUT you can help me to better understand your pov by answering the question.
From my pov your quote below means something different, the colored portion would be my interpretation from this perspective of what you were trying to say. The words you choose don't resonate with me so I would go more for feeling of what I believe you were trying to say. "Self-incurred immaturity" seems judgmental and convoluted to me so I would not use that terminology (which is why I asked the question in the first place.) I will interpret your statement from my pov.
QuoteEnlightenment is a mans emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity.
"Self-Awareness is an individuals release of borrowed belief systems."
Personally, I don't believe we are actually individuals, we just appear to be (the illusion) I also don't believe we really have any control over anything so to lay a guilt trip and judgment of "self-incurred immaturity" holds the undesirable behaviors in place. Just looking will do and acceptance of what is will get you to a point of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge to me is "Enlightenment" but the big question then is, "Who is the Self?" Well that is why Self-knowledge would be important :wink:. Know Thyself and you know everything because you ARE everything.
You say
"Actually, I was asking "what it means to you" because everything we think, feel, experience is a result of our perceptual awareness and I was trying to find out how that looked from your pov"
and then
"Since we experience the world through our perceptual awareness, "What does that mean to you?" is really the only valid question to ask since the meaning from your pov and the meaning from my pov will be different."
I'm assuming you still cannot see the paradox.
If I state "Enlightenment is a mans emergence from his own self-incurred immaturity" that's how I mean it. Asking me to explain something I have said and saying "it's because we all see the world differently, so I need you to clarify your perspective" creates a paradox. In explaining what it means to me, I am stating more things that require explanation in coincidence with my perspective. Over and over again. The way I see the explanation is different than the way you see it, as the way my initial statement meant different to both of us.
The only way to eliminate such a conundrum would be for both of us to speak objectively, which as you pointed out "To ask you that would imply that your perception was the ultimate authority for ALL... it's not, it is merely a perspective."
It's still a strange question, from my perspective.
-AM
Okay fair nuf :-D
I was beginning to wonder whether I knew what I was saying lol. +1
-AM
Huh? What planet are you from and why do you perceive that God is separate from you?
Quote from: carlhungis on March 25, 2007, 07:06:18
Like you said, I don't think that anyone here really knows the answers to any of this. But you can look at it several ways. One thing is certain, your life is temporary. This existance won't last forever, and in the big picture it is a VERY short amount of time. Who knows what will happen when we die. Your prayers could be answered and you could very well end up dissolving into nothing when it is over. I mean really, most of us hope that there is more to it than this, but the reality is that it is just as likely that there is no afterlife, this could be it.
Direct Voice, Astral Projection, Lucid Dreaming, lot's of paranormal encounters, tunnels of light people have described. Think about it: there's a lot more stuff going on that points to the possibilitiy that there IS an afterlife then that there is not.
Anyway, I've deleted my posts because I don't really want to cause disturbance here, dragging others down too. Especially my second post that came right after your reply was probably even more disturbing, so instead I wanted to post this message about the afterlife subject. To me it's quite unbelievable that people in 2007 can still deny the fact that the indications of an afterlife outweighs the one-life theory in the extreme. It's almost like people don't want to believe in an afterlife, no matter what.
I am not saying that there is or that there is not an afterlife. What I am saying is that nothing has been PROVEN either way. I certainly lean more toward believing in the afterlife, but I have not been convinced. It is one of those things that can't be proven, so we will all have to just go through it and see what happens.
Lot's of people experience lots of different things. Like minded people tend to experience similar things. Just because MANY Christians think that they have talked to god, does not mean that they are correct. Every religion has it's own group of people that have experienced certain things that would have them believe that they are the only possible correct answer. Just like scientists believe that through their experiments and studies that they are correct. It all comes down to the fact that nobody knows for sure.
In my opinion it is just as closed minded to be absolutely sure that there is an afterlife as it is to be absolutely sure that there isn't one.
I will delete my earlier post. No need for it anymore.