I think you are already well on your way in your spiritual development. I congratulate you!
From reading your post I think you have no problem, it is just that you are a sensitive person. You are very empathic, and sometimes this interferes with the state of mind you desire.
I would recommend you do some reading. Dan Ruiz's 'The Four Agreements', is very good, as is Eckhart Tolle's 'The Power of Now'.
The knowledge you will gain from reading and self reflection will help to center your awareness more squarely and discriminate between internal and external influences.
Definitely keep up the meditation, and increase it. Constant meditation practice will be the most benefit in controlling the anxieties you feel around others.
Keep up the good work! :)
Thanks for the speedy reply i'll look that up right away! :)
I absolutely agree with the other poster; in that it is precisely these kinds of questions you are asking, that give the answers that subsequently become keys to your future development.
So how to shed the baggage...
Well, in my view, you have to rid yourself of the physical circumstances that are making you feel uncomfortable. Change your job, live in a country area, etc. But a good start can be made without this. It's just that living in towns and cities these days is too stressful. There are simply too many ego-maniacs and other aggressive problem people to avoid, and they have infected virtually every area of life and in almost every place.
I don't mean to sound picky, but in my view you would want to shed your ego in order to get a more adult view of the world. Because the more egotistical a person becomes the more childish and silly they appear. Well to me that is. You know, these people who love to play with the latest gadgets and stuff. My gadget is more powerful and only half the size of your gadget... so it goes on, ad infinitum.
You are sensitive to people's moods as I am. I too find it difficult being among crowds of people as, after a while, I start to feel drained from all the negativity. For example, in typical cities these days you cannot just simply drive down the street without coming across hoards of ego-maniacs using their cars as some kind of awfulness weapon. The only way I found to survive when I lived in London years ago, was to work as few hours as possible and the rest of the time I'd drive to country areas and go for long walks. As soon as I could afford it I moved to the country, and now I gave up the rat-race altogether.
This may sound a little extreme to some, but I've been at this a long time so I've learnt a lot; and it's impossible for me to condense 20-odd years of learning into a paragraph or two without sounding extreme.
First I suggest you strip your life of all the capitalist clap-trap they feed people with. Stop buying any commercial goods apart from your very basic needs; stop drinking alcohol or taking drugs or any other kind of conventional drug or medicine. 99% of disease or bodily problems are caused by not eating the right kind of food. So your diet should consist of almost all raw food, i.e. fresh vegetables and fruits together with perhaps a little boiled potatoes or rice, though my favourite is quinoa. No animal whatsoever, no added sugar or salt, and no caffeine.
Being free of stimulants such as salt or caffeine a person's nightly sleep will become deeper and they will awake far more refreshed and alert, ready to enjoy the day. So when you do come across stressful situations they'll still get you down, but because you are "up" much higher in the first place you won't get dragged down anywhere near as far. So your current life becomes much easier to handle in other words.
Plus, the act of having to digest processed foods high in fats and animal protein places a tremendous load on the physical body, which severely depletes a person's energy. Myself I skip lightly through my day, never have a headache or any kind of other ache, pain or sickness that typically plagues many other people my age. For example: I know people my age with fairly severe arthritis who take a whole cocktail of drugs just to get them through their day. Well, they've got all the dairy products they consumed to thank for that!
Years ago we were suppressed by the men in the black coats (the priests, religous fanatics, et al) and today we are suppressed by the men in the white coats (the medical quacks). But when you get your diet in order, your body stays healthy and you have no need of these people and their products. And like I say, your day becomes a whole lot easier to manage.
The other thing I'd suggest is to stop watching TV or listening to any other kind of mass media or commercial music. Become introspective, listen to classical music (particularly violin and/or flute), have long baths by candlelight, and go for walks in amongst nature as often as possible, and practise astral projection and/or mediation as often as you can. Every day if possible.
You'll find the more you introspective you become, the more inner guidance you will receive. After a while you will learn to trust your inner voice. This will help guide you through stressful situations so you'll never feel at a loss about what to do. Also, negative feelings such as disappointment or confusion simply won't come into your life any more. Like you say, you can't unlearn or unsee your past. But you can leave it behind by substituting what you are doing now with things that are more beneficial to you in the long run.
HTH
Yours,
Frank
Thanks for your input Frank. I don't know if I can avoid the caffiene though :)
I know when I was younger i always wanted to run away to some sort of commune or join a buddhist colony and just get away from everything...but things are a little different now. I feel I can change myself and still be able to live in the same world, around egotistical people, or negative people in general. I don't want to run from them I want to learn to be able to live with them and myself better.
I was one of those people when I was younger so I try not to look down on them even know they can be annoying ;) ...besides It was a very spiritual ( non judgemental )person who helped me out of that egotistical way of life of drugs and drinking that I was in...so I should only follow in her footsteps. ( pay it forward so to speak )
One thing that popped into my mind just now...I don't know much about the bible but ...and don't really follow it but I think jesus spent alot of time with the lowlife scum of society and didnt treat them or judge them any differently so it seems suiting I should be able to accept them and learn to live them their differences...at least thats how I "feel" I should.
You have some good suggestions but I don't think that is really the direction i'm heading...at this moment anyways.
Hello BlackTalon!
I completely agree with Kiauma and Frank, that you are on the "right track", just by asking these questions, speculating about them etc.
Just the other day I wrote a "little" post here, that might help you, as many of the things you describe sounds very familiar to me!
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14031
Your main question is (as I see it), that you would like to "shed" yourself of your Ego... Well, I would like to make a friendly "challenge", by counterquesting YOU - Why would you so eagerly throw away something, that you have gone through so much pain to acquire ? [;)]
If you have the patience, then a little made-up story I thought up on my way home from work might clarify where I see things from, and what I mean by this question [:P]. (This story is not to make any fun what so ever of your situation or your questions, as I my self have only recently become more aware - and in the light of the story, "I have just taken my first steps, and learned how to stand"... [8)]
-----------
A little baby is crawling on the wooden floor, and getting more and more upset about seeing his parents walk around the house, going up the stairs, and actually RUNNING to catch the phone, when it is ringing [:O]
"I want to be able to walk and run too!", the baby thinks, while cursing over the latest of all the different bruises, cuts and scratches on his small knees and feet from all the crawling around, loosing his balance, and bumping into different obstacles on the floor [B)].
He looks down at his legs, and up at his fathers legs, and asks with a very serious voice (Authors note: Okay - i know!! ... but this IS a story, and in My universe, baby's DO speak [:D])...
"Daddy - I want to be able to walk and run too, I don't want these bruises and cuts, they hurt, and now i KNOW, that there is something better I can get. Would you please tell me, how I can get rid of these legs, and get my self a new pair, so I too can run and walk?"
The father - a former World Champion Marathon runner - looks over at his wife (a double Gold medalist in the 100 meter sprint), with a little smile, and they both look in Your direction, and asks:
"Please - Would you help us explain this to our son ?"
.
.
.
With the kindest regards, and all the hope and happines, that I can send in your direction,
hello everybody.
i just have another point of view here... it really sounds great that long walks in the forest, healthy foods and daily meditations will rid us from problems. im sure its a very good base to build upon but in my opinion the past will not just go away that easy. ive been through very "bad emotions" during the last few years, and my meditation has made them come up easier i suppose.
so, all these things is so valuable, to eat healthy and not use intoxicants and so on, but dont expect it to be a dance on roses only. bad times will come, its natural and nothing to worry about.
if we have stress in us, its good when it comes to the surface, just stay calm about it and it will pass away, atleast i hope so!
/jonas
quote:
Originally posted by Jonas K strand
hello everybody.
i just have another point of view here... it really sounds great that long walks in the forest, healthy foods and daily meditations will rid us from problems.
Well of course it will. Because the "problems" have only come about because a person lives a completely unnatural lifestyle. A lifestyle that places great stress on the body. Living naturally is not just valuable, it is absolutely vital if good health, both mental and physical, is to be attained throughout the course of a person's life.
You go on to say that mental bad-times are only "natural". My question is, why should bad times be natural? Surely, happiness must be the
natural mental state, and health must be the
natural physical state of the body.
I'm sorry to be seeming to cut a swathe through your post, and I do respect your opinion, but it is only because people insist on abusing themselves by intaking poisons into their bodily system they fall ill. That sickness does not just affect their physical system, it screws with their brain also. And it is only because this kind of abuse has become SO darned prevalent in society at large, it has become "normal".
For example, caffeine addiction has become so widespread people invariably assume that I too am addicted. People will ask me, "would you like tea or coffee?" Assuming I'm addicted to one or the other. On giving a polite refusal they almost always offer me sugar instead, in the form of a manufactured fruit-flavoured drink; because most people are addicted to sugar in addition to caffeine.
When I ask for just a glass of plain water they think it's weird and unnatural. But what could be more "natural" than drinking pure water? But that's how screwed society has become.
Yours,
Frank
Oh yes. I drink (what have you) on occasion, but in general I avoid just what you say Frank, and more often than not wind up with water at my table.
It is absolutely true, everything you say about how abusive modern life can be to the body and spirit - but I also think there is a purpose to it, even beyond it's 'negative' teaching to take care of myself.
I sure do envy you though. [:)]
BlackTalon, Well met, well met indeed! You and I have chosen to walk similar roads. I can not thank you enough for starting this thread.
I work in a one hour photo lab. I have to deal with people all day long and it's my job to keep people happy no matter what they throw at me. If someone's film is late or missing or not 100% to their satisfaction, I get to take the blunt end of their dissatisfaction whether or not I am in any way responsible. So, needless to say, that I am flooded with negativity. You must understand how seriously people take their pictures. They think pictures are the most valuable things in the world as they capture moments that they want to keep forever. Of course, I understand, but I come from an entirely different place in that I try not to value any one moment over any other moment. Plus, if you really want to remember something, we have far better means to do so internally. Although, that ability is being quickly widdled away, since we are transfering that skill to machines.
So, basically, I also want to get rid of this attachment to the ego to suffering, etc. And yes BlackTalon, although I also am not a Christian (been there and done that) I do find much value in the teachings of Jesus. What I would like to embody is what my friends and I call "the Jesus love" No matter what comes my way, I want to be able to remain composed and find love in all. Even when someone is yelling at me because their photos are 3 seconds late and they are afraid they are lost forever or some other nonsense, I want to be able to see that these people are also here to develope spiritually and that they are learning their lessons but they have not learned the same lessons as I have and that I too maybe earlier in this life and in lifes past may also have reacted so dramatically over some piece of paper ... and that we all come from the same stuff we all are one and see that all there is is love for them. But even if I do have this intellectual understanding, I still get stressed out and I still find myself reacting to these people and I just want to go home and not have to worry about photos anymore.
I try to tell myself that if I could see clearly and not be attached to my ego that I could work this job and not feel it take any toll on me. Rather, I could always act in a way that would help bing joy into people's lives. I may not be able to sit and have a philosophical discussion with them and get them to see the emptiness of their attachment to tiny sheets of paper, but I may be able to serve them in such a way that would help calm their nerves and brighten their day instead of falling into anger over their photos.
So, yes, I see where you are BlackTalon and I know that feeling of being stabbed in the chest, etc. I don't want to dread the moment a person walks up to the counter, because I'm reacting due to my thousands of bad experiences with previous customers. Oh lord, I just want to run away and leave it all behind. I'm tired, so tired of it. I know if wanted to I could live a life where I did not have to be in the world. I might have to retreat to a ashram or monastary and I wouldn't get to do things exactly how I think I want to do them, but I wouldn't have to be pushed around by people who can't even see that they are pushing.
I will follow kitamu's advice. It is what I tell myself to do.
However, I don't want to have to flee from my brothers and sisters in order to find peace. I want to find peace wherever I go. I want to be able to flow with whatever comes my way. But am I deluded to think that I can be happy in any circumstance?
I know I could get a different job, but that doesn't seem to solve the problem. It just seems like I am avoiding it. Although, if I was at a less stressful job, I may find my life easier and that I am more happier and better able to work on myself and in doing so, I might get to the jesus love and find that I never have to worry about negative energy and being pulled around etc.
Thanks for allowing me to express myself. whew. Be well and lots of love.
I guess I should add that I am vegan. So, I don't eat any animal products (there are so many good reasons to not eat anything from animals. Entire books have been written on the subject) I did try a completely raw diet, for a time. I felt so good and so light, but I found that I was a little low on energy and that i was spending 3x to 4x more on food. I would love to do it if I could figure out how to solve those dilemmas.
I also mainly drink water and sometimes fruit juice. On occasion I'll drink a soda (if the vending machine gives me dr. pepper when I ask for bottled water! heh) and a little bit of tea. But 90% of the time it is water water water.
I do not watch television, except for the occasional movie or if I happen to learn about a particularly good show, I will get the dvds or tapes and watch it.
I also practice yoga and meditate pretty much every day.
All of this has deffinetely enhanced the quality of my being. Life is smoother and I feel better and my mood is almost always positive. However, I still have issues with being in public places and dealing with customers at work. Taking these steps help, but they have yet to take me to where I want to be.
Well I was going to reply, and ended up writing half a books worth of what I was trying to get across and I realized in my writing how many times I contradicted myself and how much I learned about myself just in that small writing...i'm gonna go right now and start writing a journal and disect my life from my earliest memories, and really ask myself some questions...i'll see what kind of conclusion I come to then i'll reply. Thanks for the inputs! :)
Well I think that journals gonna take some time, I didn't want to tell my life story on here...anways I missed your post you had there halfphased and just read it now and had to laugh at how you explained working with your customers I know the feeling. Sounds like were roughly going down the same path...you got directions? lol. I think were lost..or not...ok back to reality...I commend you for becoming a vegan I on the other hand am not ready for that yet!
I found today I tried to look at everyone equily without judging them or worried about how people would respond to me or put any energy to what I thought people thought of me. I would great everyone I seen equilly with a smile. I know usually I wouldnt great certain people the same way as I thought they would either ignore me and I didn't like the feeling of saying hi or goodmorning only to hear your echoe. I'ts funny some people almost looked shocked as they wake up and get a coffee and you say goodmorning to them with a smile but to make sure you look in their eyes as you say it, they almost jump out of their skin like they realized they're alive all of a sudden it's really interesting lol. It's like, hey I got a new friend now as they start a conversation with you. heh..makes me teary eyed just thinking about it now lol. I can't believe i've been so selfish of my own feelings to not welcome someone as my brother just because I thought they wouldnt respond! lol /hits head on wall. I got alot to learn.
I firmly believe it's the small things you do for others thats the most important, it also seems to be so from the NDE's i've read. Makes sense how small things like a smile to one person can effect many people down the chain. After this experiment today I also felt like there was an imaginary field that made people notice I was there, hard to explain, like I felt people felt I was approachable the way I'd see a certain person looking my way and i'd catch them as i'd look around....unless I had something on my face lol...but I duno, i'm gonna keep trying these experiments out and see what happens.
Kenneth, as for your question I think what I want to throw away is not the pain because that has made me what I am...but the false image I have of myself and other people. Basically judging someone because someone else like them was a certain way. Say some young kid breaks into your car and next time you see a young kid your weary of him thinking your gonna break into his car...or thinking this person is looking down on me because of so & so reason. If that makes sense.
Hello halfphased (And BlackTalon too [;)])
Nice to meet you, and really nice to hear, that others are on the same path as well.
There are others in this forum, (And even in this thread, I believe), that have mentioned a book by Ekhart Tolle, called "The power of now", that I also would recommend very much!
Much of the space in that book is centered around, what he calls the "Body of Pain" (Smertelegemet), that actually is the Ego's reflection (or shadow) inside of you.
More precisely it is (As I understand it), the feelings and thoughts you one way or another don't want or know how to handle / have the ressources at the moment to handle.
The "technical" side to the Body of pain is exemplified here through your story (I have taken a lot of liberties, and made a lot of assumptions in this text, but i hope, that you get the meaning, and don't get stuck with errors in my assumptions[:P]):
- A customer walks up to you, and is very intruding / intrusive in his behaviour (He is actually burried deep in his own Body of pain [B)]). This gets the EgoDefence in you (Whose job it is to "protect" us), fully awake, and it feels inside like we "raise" our barriers, (Sort of "prepares" for an unknown battle, becoming very "alert" and "attentive").
You actually gets pi**** (?, depending on, if you are an Offensive or Defensive personality yourself) about this persons behaviour if he is intrusive enough (Feeling angry, stepped on), and wants to "react" - perhaps "fight back". (Some sort of aggression, anger), but then the Ego steps in again with a "block" (Either a direct feeling of perhaps loosing your job if you do, or a more general feeling of "I don't wanna go there"...It can also be a very strong thought, that in itself triggers a feeling of "Don't", that amplifies this thought, that again amplifies the feeling etc. etc.
The customer actually feels this "backing down" as a sort of "Victory", and will in some cases pursue this further - trying to annoy you more - to get you deeper into those feelings. In these situations there is also often a strong feeling of being powerless, as Opposite feelings are in their nature only the two sides of the same coin!, like the South and Northpole.
(The customer feels this effect as being increasingly powerfull, a rather pleasant feeling, if you don't know that it actually at the same time creates a great hidden fear of loosing this feeling of power inside of him, i.e. feeling powerless - hence the North / south pole comparison).
Afterwards you feel very drained, and feel like your whole inside has been shaken violently, sometimes even to the degree, that your body actually starts shaking too. Often a "weak" feeling of relief follows (Like "I'm glad this is over), and you would "jump" into that feeling, or sometimes the fight actually continues inside your thoughts and your feelings - you sort of "replay" this encounter again and again, trying to find a "way out".. Until some other customer or situaion sort of "drags" you out of this repetitive thought<->emotion pattern.
(The Ego-defence is in many ways similar to the body's immune system, and one of the properties of it is, that it is very much like a "program" being written into your mind - the more powerfull feelings and thoughts, the "deeper" the program is actually written. It is also actually a very simple (But powerfull!) mechanism, that reacts the same way again and again. It doesn't distinquish between situations - if a situation is the least bit similar, it gets treated the same way! ... It is here, that the "mal-function" often occurs, much like the imune system reacting similar to Pollen as it does to a Virus - and thus creating Allergies of different kinds).
This is the mechanism - but where is the "shadow" of the Ego-defence, the Body of Pain in this - and how does it works?
Well, if you look at the above situation, there were actually a large number of different feelings involved, that came so fast and so powerfull, that you didn't have time to react to them. (A normal feeling under normal circumstances lasts about 8-10 seconds, and it feels like a wave washing over you - the same "rythm" as a large wave washing on to the shore).
In the actual situation the emotions changed much too quickly to enable you to be aware in the moment, and actually "feel" the feeling rise and eventually leave you, so the Ego defence used one of it's other possibilities to "save" you. It called the Energy-body in to help it save you, and sort of "directed" (or "stopped") the feeling as it still is inside your emotional body - sort of like "put a temporary lid" of energy on the feeling inside of you, so you didn't black out, or got into chock (Which is also one the Ego-defences "tools" to save you).
We have normally not learned how to "clean" our emotional bodies and our energy-bodies our selfes, as we normally would clean our physical body, so these feelings with a "lid" on stays right were they are [B)]. You don't feel them anymore (There is a lid on them now, remember) - and you decide a little while later, that you "certainly don't wanna feel like that again ever!!" ...
The Ego-defence hears you, and obeyes your command - after all, it IS you that are in charge, or? [:P]. It reinforces the lid - in reality seperating you more from those feelings.
The next time an intrusive customer comes in, the scene sort of replayes itself - with the addition, that now the Ego-defence KNOWS from the last time, how you want your feelings handled ... And so it puts them right where it put the last feelings. The more this pattern is repeated, the better the Ego system gets at "hiding" your true feelings from you. In the end you just don't feel them anymore - you just feel the tirednes associated with the energy loss used to hold the "Block" in place.
This goes on and on and on....And where is the "shadow" part then in this? ... Well, the feelings you have "stored" inside of you, is actually a part of you, that you have decided at one time or another, you DON'T want anything to do with anymore! .... (Or more precisely - you Ego system has decided for you, because you were otherwise engaged at that exact moment when this took place).
Feelings in their nature only wants acknowledgement - feelings Want to be felt! ... No more, no less [:)]
But here comes the first "Inner conflict" ... because what happens, when these feelings try to "make it to the surface" ? ... Remember, the Ego defence is just a "stupid program"! ... Yup - the neversleeping Ego-defence rices to the occation in the start of the feeling, right when you have a glimpse of the feeling, and tries to put it right back were it was - with the extra feelings you had time to "produce" but not "feel through" before it shut them down, and (to be sure it doesn't happen again, with an extra strong lid or energy block).
But what happens when the situations continues to occur, and each time the stored feelings get stronger and stronger - and hence requeires a stronger and stronger block? ... Is there a "limit" to HOW much of a given type of feeling the Energy body can contain? ...
Yes, there is, and when the Ego defence reaches this limit, it uses another tool, that creates another feeling for you to feel instead, that you (perhaps) are more comfortable with, and makes an unconcious and automatic "path-way" between those feelings. This (when continued for long enough time, or with strong enough feelings) gives the effect, that emotions gets "layered" inside of you - that one feeling leads to another, that leads to yeat another, that actually leads to a feeling you CAN currently handle - and THAT feeling is what you (The conscius you) feel, even though your BODY feels a totally different feeling.
Pheu, this is a long text - hope you are still with me [;)]
So - are there any other "fun [xx(]" side-effects of this Ego-defence <-> Body of Pain <-> Physical body relation ship?
Yes, a couple [}:)]
Wanna know WHY the "good" feelings inside of you actually feels like they get "smaller and smaller" - or that you feel them less and less?
Well - remember from earlier, that Feelings are in fact a "pair", like two sides of the same coin, that IN THEIR CORE contains the exact opposite feeling? ... Well, the Ego-defence knows this - That the feeling of Joy actually contains the "seed" of Sadness - eventually leads to sadness. etc. etc.
(I am still looking for a place, where I can find a diagram of feelings and their opposite - If you know of such a place, please drop me a mail!!)
What was it now, that the Ego defence did? ... Yup - it protected you from the "bad" feeling - and IT knows, that the opposite feeling often "triggers" the bad feeling, so what does it do? ... You guessed it [;)], it actually put a lid on the GOOD feeling as well!
This is also why an addiction is NEVER FULFILLED!! .... An addiction is - imho - an "escape" from such a set of feelings - and the addiction tries to move as far away as possible FROM the dangerous feeling(s) - and where are that ? ... Yup - into the direct opposite feeling, that in it's core has ... etc. etc. etc.
The Ego system knows, that these stored feelings (Or more precisely THE BLOCKS USED TO HOLD THE FEELINGS AWAY FROM YOU) are not healthy for you, that they eventually leads to ilnesses and even death. (Death you ask - how ? ... Well, what do you think happens, when even the energy body is not strong enough to hold the feelings ? .... Well, the Ego defence moves another layer outwards then, to an even STRONGER body - the Physical! .... THAT is why (IMHO), I believe, that a dissease IN IT'S VERY CORE HOLDS IT'S OWN CURE!! .... (Journeyworks uses this exact ability of a dissease and of emotions in their courses - described in the book "The Journey" by Brandon Bays)
It has yet another tool that it uses, when these dangerous feelings become TOO powerfull for it to hold. (Or actually, when YOU are drained of energy, then there is simply not enough energy left in your system to hold the blocks in place - and the Feelings that only want to be felt, rises to the surface). This "extra" tool is to "move" your focus and awareness AWAY from the feeling and into some External activity - then those feelings CAN NOT be felt, and the Ego-defence has fulfilled its purpose once again.
(A little side-note here - these "lids" or "Blocks" inside is made of your Life-energy, and they require a LOT of energy. If you ever have had a so-called "Golden moment" when it felt like Time stood still for an all too short second, where there were absolutely NO trace of resistance inside of you, where you felt ALIVE and WHOLE, and at peace with the world and yourself - then try a simple math-piece now: Your energy in "The Golden Moment" minus your energy in "Your current state" equals the amount of energy and "space" used to contain your suppressed feelings(!) [:O]
So what are those "external activities" ? ... Remember the Customer that harrased you in the start of this text ? ... That is one of them - and a weaker one even! .... Try all the "darkest" activities (And also all other activities that are extreme enough, that they can hold the attention of a person captured), that mankind enganges itself in - and in their core you WILL find an Ego-system trying desperately to defend a person from his own accumulated "dangerous" feelings and thoughts[V]. The Ego-system actually "triggers" this activity, when it starts to "loose" control over the contained feeling(s) inside.
Ever seen a person "shift" from a "normal" person, and into their Body of Pain? ... If it is powerfull enough, you can actually see the eyes sort of "glace over", and it feels like the person you know has completely disappeared.
In the "extreme" cases of this, a person can actually develop split personalities, that act (Actually, they don't "act" as sorts - remember, they ARE actually accumulated "dangerous" feelings originating from the person) like they are individual persons them selfes, and the "real" person is "shut down" when this occurs [V].
(I know, that some people in their very soul believes, that there exists things as Possessions etc, and I am not sure if they are right or wrong. But I DO know, that I first try to seek a "down to earth" explanation for certain things, before I move on to supernatual things. If there exists such things as Negs and Poltergeists, I honestly don't know [?], but until I have proof of one or the other, I choose to believe in this explanation, as it actually gives me a possibility to DO something active about my self every day!)
Ever wonder why Psycologists are so interested in your child-hood? ... Well, my guess is, that since the EgoDefence is an "Automatic system", much like our Body's Immune system, it actually lacks the ability to (on it's own) "change" programs, once they are put in place. So a feeling you experienced as a child WILL still be there - even though you perhaps HAVE talked about it many times. Remember - it is NOT the situation that is contained in your body, but the Emotions attached to that particular situation. And the body remembers - Oh, yeah - it doesn't forget. But the GOOD part about this is, that you CAN use the nature of feelings (They only want to be felt), in combination with your Active Awareness (Just FEEL the feeling, don't create NEW pain by Identifying yourself WITH the pain) - but remember, the Program in your EgoDefence is STILL running at full strength - and that tries its best to keep you AWAY from the feeling !! ... [;)]. It is Active Awareness and Consciusness directed at the actual pattern that can change it. (Is my experience with my "own" patterns and old emotions).
Well, there are many other consequences of this little "system" inside of each and every one of us, but please feel free to ask for clarification and if you disagree with me as well. I would REALLY like to get to know my self better [;)]
So, to end this - a little "statement" [:P]
You as a person seeks "wholeness" - So now you have one guess(!), on what lies ahead of you - or rather inside of you - before you reach that wholeness, that Inner core - The inner peace [}:)]
THIS is why I feel, that our Emotions and our previous "pain" is so very, very important to each and every one of us! .... It is my sincere believe, that you CAN Go THROUGH your own "hell", and you WILL find Heaven [:D]. THIS has become MY inner path, because it contains "down to earth" logic and reason, that LEADS directly to spirituality. This is a way that I can understand, and that I can actually apply to my everyday life.
It DOES change me - not in a "radical" way, but more like I start out by running on an engine with multiple errors, and layer by layer get it fixed, until it runs like a Formula1 engine. It is still the exact same engine as I started out with - but so much more TRUE!
(And please remember, that everytime you takes side, you actually creates a (albeit very small) "split" in yourself. Every time you does something "despite" of yourself, you move away from something inside of yourself. This also makes EVERY SINGLE SITUATION IN YOUR DAILY LIFE an oppertunity to actually be Aware and alert on your inside - and if you encounter resistance, to FEEL that resistance through sheer awareness, and the contact with your inner body - until it "releases" it self, and you actually have healed a litle part of your self back - and released a similar amount of energy to do MORE feeling with [:P]).
So - get the Ball rolling, and start cleaning up those inner blocks and feelings, they are there ALL THE TIME, in EVERY SITUATION, just ready to be felt, acknowledged and released [:D]
Cheers - and happy reading - from a (now) very tired
btw Enjoyed your baby story Keneth heh...i'm gonna have a read on your post you mentioned. :)
Nice post Kenneth. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I'm so tired right now, that I think I will need to read it again when I am more awake.
BlackTalon, I have no directions but we do have our inner guidance and the more I trust in it the smoother things get ;)
It's cool to hear about the success with your experiment. I think I should try it.
You know what's funny about my situation. I smile at the customers and try and am friendly with them, but I'm working at a one hour photo place. So, if I take a little too long with the customers, i got my coworkers down my back for taking too much time with the customers! lol So even though I want to be me with the customers, I feel compelled to be a blank wall so that the customers will move on. So many things to work on... heh Man, it's hillarious.
Thank you, Jonas, for your response.
I see now exactly where you are coming from. It is the context in which we place the word natural which is the crux of the difference.
Though again it just goes to show, where you say about my use of the word natural as a goal, how the human race has gone so far off track that we now think of our natural state as being something we strive for; something we now have to try so hard to achieve; as opposed to our natural state being something that should merely be, something that we should simply grow up as.
With all due respect to those who think differently, I don't buy this Jesus point of view; where people think they should somehow suffer the actions of others and not have it affect them and all that jazz. I'm sorry, but it does sound a teeny bit like playing the martyr to me.
Someone even went so far as to call avoiding certain types of people as running away. Hmm, I call it voting with my feet. So in my opinion, a person should avoid particular types of people; just like they should avoid eating certain foods, or living in polluted areas, and so forth.
I thought it especially interesting, where you say: "only when we start to experience that this persons anger is his problem, and my reaction to that anger is my problem, then the love for that person will come naturally i believe, but not when we blame him for being the cause of my suffering."
You saying that brought home to me how I, for whatever reason, have always realised that the angry person's anger is their problem. Which is why I simply don't react to anyone else's anger, therefore, there can be no blame either. But I'm not sure where the love comes in! I can see the pain and the suffering these people are going through. After all, it's written all over their faces. But it's ultimately their problem at the end of the day, not mine.
What does upset me, however, is the way these angry ego-maniacs are collectively raping, destroying and polluting the planet in their constant striving for yet more power and wealth. When I read about how the livelihoods of innocent native people are being swept away by the incessant momentum of the capitalist machine; and think about the billions of innocent creatures that are simply bred for slaughter each year. When I think of the sheer intensity of the suffering those innocent people and those billions of innocent creatures must go through... I admit, I do find that extremely hard to handle.
Placing a border to me is easy. I just use my instinct. When you follow the natural way it simply becomes obvious.
One of the main faculties people lose is the ability to know what is good for them, and what is not. Take the case with food, for example, animals in the wild instinctively know what foods they need to eat. You won't see a lion eating fruits any more than you'll see a monkey hunting game. Because animals are naturally furnished with all the faculties they need in order to feed themselves.
The human animal was no different. Incidentally, this should be all the evidence we need that clearly tell us we were never designed to eat meat: we simply do not have the necessary natural faculties. However, most people in western society (and in others) have completely lost the ability to reason in this respect. So they, in turn, completely lost the instinct that told them what is good food and what is not.
I suppose the instinct is still there, hidden under layer upon layer of modern-day social conditioning and ego attachment. But if a person were to strip away these layers and begin living a natural lifestyle, then I'm guessing the basic instincts would come back. But I'm not sure whether all the physical damage would repair itself. People can get to the stage where they are just too far gone, and it's like they lose their reverse gear.
Like I said in an earlier post, I know people my age who suffer fairly chronic diseases. All of which have been caused as a direct result of a lifetime of eating the wrong types of food. And if people can become physically too far gone to effect a complete repair, then this almost certainly would apply mentally too.
Anyhow, the best of luck in your quest. Yes, what an interesting discussion this turned out to be!
Yours,
Frank
PS
Bad food in the belly, bad thoughts in the head. That's what I always say. And I think you'll find that saying is truer than most people would believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Frank
With all due respect to those who think differently, I don't buy this Jesus point of view; where people think they should somehow suffer the actions of others and not have it affect them and all that jazz. I'm sorry, but it does sound a teeny bit like playing the martyr to me.
Everyone has their own path I suppose you follow what you feel is right, for me personally I'm following this path as I feel it is right ( for me ), I can't speak for Jonas..the jesus part was just a good example of how I feel I should live. Like I said in another post my life was drastically changed by someone who was non judgemental..she had young offenders living in her home with her because their parents didn't want them.
I changed my life by her examples...if you spent enough time with certain types of people that are at the bottem of the barrel so to speak and you great them like a family member their whole energy changes before you, like they feel worthy again. They always make sure to look you in the eyes and shake your hand, well most anyways. Then of course theres the people that have no clue and don't really give a sh#t about you or anyone else..but if you go out of your way to give something of yourself to them they remember that. For me I feel it's a better option as it's puts positive into the world serving others and in small bits makes the world a better place and I don't feel i'm suffering, unless i'm judging these people then it's different.
Like I said we all have our paths, and I can see your side of the coin but it's the path i'm going to follow right now. A payed holiday would be nice howerver! :)
I have one question for you i'm curious about, what made you decide to not eat meat? ...i'm assuming you weren't a vegitarian or vegan your whole life.
Hi Frank!
You are absolutely right, this has turned out to be a very interesting discusison [:)]
With all due respect to those who think differently, I don't buy this Jesus point of view; where people think they should somehow suffer the actions of others and not have it affect them and all that jazz. I'm sorry, but it does sound a teeny bit like playing the martyr to me.
I do agree with both of you - and I don't agree *LOL* .... [:P] If I could invite you to a little "experiment" right NOW (this moment, AS you are reading this!), I would be a very happy camper [;)] ...
(It actually has allready started - my guess is, that THAT statement about an "experiment" created a reaction in your body, and THAT reaction is either a resistance or an attraction.
While you read this now, try to "shut your thoughts off", and "split" your awareness between this you are reading, and your entire body, and explore that "reaction".
(CHOOSE to understand it with your body, instead of with your Mind)...
Now, I'm going to write somehting, that I KNOW will create a reaction in your body - and this is entirely on purpose. [}:)]
Your quest is to Explore your reaction with the purpose of exploring your resistance(s) and attractions inside, and ONLY the resistance and attractions - without being either drawn to it, or pushed away from it, and without categorizing (i.e "This I don't like!"), judging ("He's right / He's wrong"), taking side, etc. [}:)] ...
If you end up DOING any of these things RIGHT NOW while exploring your Bodys reaction, we win - because then you will have learned what it does NOT mean to be in the now, and if you succeed, we win, because then you will have experienced what it means to actively BE in what your body feels, without drowning (or "loosing") yourself IN the resistance / attraction.
The difference being Looking at the "direction" the attraction or resistance "points", or actually FOLLOWING where the resistance / attraction points to (Or, in other words, BECOMING the resistance / attraction [:P])
Btw: The above IS my oppinion in our little discussion [;)]
...
..
.
[;)]
.
..
...
Oh - You felt a feeling of "Isn't there something missing here, what about that statement ? .... or did you Think it ? - where is your Awareness RIGHT NOW? ... In your mind, in your body - or busy being aware of everything at the same time?
Well, you are absolutely right - you CAN'T understand your body's reaction with your mind (Thougths and emotions), but you can FEEL your emotions with your awareness, like putting your hands in hot water - there IS nothing more than this to this little Experiment, other than it's our choise for how many times we will repeat this "Being aware" thingy. (THIS is what I think Jesus meant - that WE ALL can use the resistance/attraction in ALL situations to actually "sharpen" our awareness inside, our awareness on our Thoughts, our reactions, our emotions, our actions, your bodys reaction, etc. etc.
And believe me - there is NOTHING about martyrism in Exploring your inside - Martyrism appears, when you BECOME that attraction / resistance, or more precisely CHOOSE to go where it pushes / draws you!
hurray!
i really think that we can learn so much when being present.
my experience is that it gives insights, direct knowledge. but only if we keep ourselves detatched. when the mind (maby unconsious, the mind is very deep) reacts, being in thie greyzone between suffering and not suffering we have other things to reveal about ourselves. when this habitpattern of reaction works freely and is fed, then there might be a feeling of martyrship, but can someone that is totaly balanced with everything, be it physical, mental... just watching it come and pass away be a martyr?
its all about how we interpret what comes our way, things that break the habitual interpretations seems to have the effect of making people interested. paranormal, stuff, golf... shooting a white ball? wow!
hi frank! jonas- not "someone", dont be shy[;)]
i went so far saing that avoiding people is running away. and i hmm... dont know... people that have come out of addictions to drugs, should avoid their old friends ofcaurse... at the same time i think that if be beleave we can control things we will be very cofused when we loose our arm in a treefallingaccident on our daily jogginground.
/jonas
Frank_
hmm, while I agree with you to a certain extent Frank, I think that we as a society should make an effort to improve things for everyone, just walking away is fine but ultimatly if the problem grows so large it will effect everyone (you have had to evacuate to the country for example), therefor it is in everyone's best interest to try to make things better here.
I agree that perhaps complicated standards of ethics and so on probably doesnt extend beyond the physical,
I think that beyond the physical it is all more straightforward ie 'towards unconditional love is 'good' and away from it is 'not so good'.
However, here in the physical it is a different matter, as we are the ones that are having to live here!
Therefor it is essential for human society to strive towards a better way of living, its ok for those outside of it to dismiss it, but try living here and then say so!
This way, human life will be greatly improved and the ELS (as Monroe puts it) will be greatly improved, at the moment the system is clogged up leading to all kinds of problems, certainly just leaving it is NOT the best answer.
btw when did you decide on your raw fruit diet? Is it all its cracked up to be? Interestingly, the Jesus of the 'Dead sea scrolls' prescribes just such a diet (this jesus is radically different from the one in the established bible btw!).
Concerning humans, I thought that it was established that we were officially omni-vores, that is designed to eat fruit & veg AND meat, whatever is available, to increase our chances of survival, therfore I would say we are designed to eat both.
Douglas
Hrm, so many delicious fruits to choose from... where to begin...
Oh this term 'natural' is an interesting one. Why is the current state of affairs any less natural than the state of affairs that existed X amount of years ago? Clearly, we are a product of nature and as such anything that we do or create is naturally an extension of that. Whether it be for good or ill that is something yet to see, as I can only place the now in the context of my own current limited experience.
And yes I can say the previous and still think that the path through the void that humans have currently taken does not seem to be the best possible. It seems that if we do not try in our own ways to help spread what we know that it will be lost to the future and their way will become even more difficult. I am so emotianlly attached to this. But why are my ideals the way thigs should be? Why is my instinct more natural than the instinct of another's to go out and get money and destroy the world? At the same time they destroy they create, but not in the way I want. Maybe it will end when they finally have it all and realize that they are still not satisfied. May we not have to wait that long, may we be spared. Oh this is silly, but I'll post it anyways.
kenneth, am I doing something wrong? I tried to undestand with my body, but as I tried to do that it felt like my mind was screaming in agony! it felt so heavy like my body was being suffocated... what's up? how can I understand something without my mind? when thinking stops, how am I suppossed to put any meaning into these bodily sensations? and wait a minute, how am I even aware of these sensations?! is my mind still secretly at work? It's like I'm throwing a wrench into the machine and it want to break apart, but at the same time it feels like something is trying to hold it together. weird
A reply to the original post
(and for the record I didn't even read all the excellent replies. I'll get those later)
The problem is more a learned situation than it is a reality.
From the post I gather that you have an idea that you and what you manifest as a physical entity are not the same. Yet you have the learned biad for thinking they are the same.
Licing in circumstances that cause one to feel uncomfortable can almost always be traced to defining oneself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of yourself. When a person starts to accept and defined himselfs based on outside influence a conflict necessarily arises. One ust cannot please everyone so who does one choose to please? Who and what defines WHO you are (as opposed to what you are?)
There are 6 billion other people and as many opinions of who you are and only one of you. Trying to live according to outside definitions will lead to frustration.
What is the solution?
Examine yourself and live true to what YOU feel and perceive to be the real and truhtfull you. If that entails leaving your job, the do it. If you can negotioate your job and what you choose to define as your Self then do that. Only always be truthful to yourself and always accept responsibility of what you decide.
(replies to the other posts may appear tomorrow)
2cents & L&L
Jouni
As a society we are making an effort to improve things for everyone? Who is this "everyone" and what is truly improving? It sounds like you are determining improvement within the narrow boundaries of economic development to me.
Err, what do you mean "if" the problem grows so large it will affect everyone. The problem covers virtually the whole planet, and it IS already affecting everyone. Well, virtually everyone. The problem is there for all to see. It's right in front of everyone's faces and yet only a relative handful of people can actually see it. It's just so incredible.
Talking to you guys it's so obvious you are in microcosm to what I see in the world today. People are ego-driven to the point where they just don't see it anymore; lacking any real sense of compassion; totally insensitive to all the suffering; only ever seeing events in terms of impact to themselves; and so the pain and the suffering continues...
"Living in circumstances that cause one to feel uncomfortable can almost always be traced to defining oneself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of yourself." Am I the only one who thinks to say that is ludicrous? No disrespect meant to the poster, of course. But am I really the only one here who thinks this is nonsense?
I'm feeling uncomfortable living in the western world, and paying taxes to governments that manufacture arms and sell them to developing countries so they can kill each other more swiftly and efficiently; selling millions of land-mines, for example, so that armies can plant and forget them. So that children innocently playing, years later, can become maimed and/or killed from the subsequent explosions.
We're not talking armies fighting here in some place well out of the way. Millions of innocent native people are caught-up in these conflicts. We are talking about innocent women and children here, literally being blown to bits. And they could be said to be the "lucky" ones; because many of them lose limbs and subsequently the wherewithal to feed themselves and their family. So millions of these innocent people die a horrendous and slow and painful death every year from starvation. And while all this is going on, millions of people in the western world are living in relative luxury, just stuffing their faces with food to the point where an ever larger percentage of them are becoming obese.
When I think of the devastation and the destruction these weapons cause to people and animals and the environment, I find it so incredibly awful, so terribly upsetting. And that's before I've even thought about the destruction caused to the planet from all the pollution and the waste in arms manufacture. And then there are all the animals that are killed and maimed from the explosions, and who starve to death from having their habitats destroyed. Together with all the innocent creatures that are tortured in laboratories in the name of weapons research. The sheer levels of waste and suffering and destruction are just mind boggling!
Whoops, sorry guys, there I go again feeling "uncomfortable" because I'm "defining myself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of myself"
Gosh, it sounds like you all have a heck of a long way to go before you graduate from this system.
Yours,
Frank
PS
Please stop hitting me with all the Jesus stuff, it's ever so passé.
For the record I never said I was on a raw fruit diet.
No worries Frank. I figured readers would be less literal [:D]
Also note that I said "almost always" as opposed to "always".
I do however stand behind the belief that change comes only from the individuals. A society is the sum of its members and cannot change unless the members take the personal initiative.
quote:
Whoops, sorry guys, there I go again feeling "uncomfortable" because I'm "defining myself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of myself"
Hmm it seems to me that you're intentionally misreading what I was saying?
My reply was specifically meant as a reply to the original post which clearly concerned itself with the probloems of an individual, not an oppressed people in Africa or a the general population living in horrendous social and economic conditions, in themiddle of wars even. With regard to those I agree that the individual in the circumstances isn't the cause of the sufferring and to claim they were would be an insult.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
goodday!
i personally believe in love though living in the system. yes i know that they take my money and that sweden is producing loads of wepons for destruktion of this nice planet and many people in this world.
the understanding of this mind/matterphenomena is important for me now-what is this shame for being involved in this system? what is this attraction to coffey, sugar, and te? how do i actually feel when eating three steaks in a row?
i believe that peace within is possible even though the outside circumstances are really bad, and i think that compassion is a frank-natural state of mind. call it jesuscrap or whatever... and no need to feel offended because what we write here is only things we... write.
frank, in one breath you talk about how you have always been looking upon others anger as their problem and your reaction as you problem and some posts later you seem to be so angry yourself because of what others here on the forum is writing. do we have some kind of reaction here? im not sure because people from france yell more at each other naturally (not franknaturally)
Halfphased: Nature is designed to exist in a state of harmony and balance. We are a part of nature, as you rightly point out. It must surely be incumbent upon us, therefore, to live in accordance with that harmony and to ensure the balance is not upset. This has to be the correct definition of our "natural" state. What other could there possibly be, but simply the way of living that is in accordance with the natural harmony and balance of nature. Everything we do should be an extension of this. Yet the current situation could not be any more opposite! Whether it is for good or ill is not something we have yet to see. The sickening proof is right there, in front of everyone's faces.
This is not a matter of one person trying to impose their ideals on another. Anyone can see for themselves (if they were to actually open their eyes) every year the greed and the destruction magnifies, and we move yet further away from our natural state. People are not destroying the planet through having the wrong instincts. They are destroying it through having ridiculous ego-attachments. This is so darned widespread hardly anyone sees it. As such, it has become "normal". All this wouldn't be too bad if the only people suffering were a relatively small number who refused to pay heed, as nature is designed to encompass a limited degree of upset. But the incessant and widespread desire for yet more wealth and power causes a monstrous degree of suffering to millions of innocent people, and to billions of animals. Not to mention the rape and destruction of huge swathes of our planet, and the significant pollution of our air and water with highly obnoxious chemicals and gasses.
You say that you can see the path humans have taken is not the best possible. Look, we're not talking about optimisation here; discussing how we can fine-tune the system and give it a little tweak to improve its efficiency a couple of percent. Unfortunately, the path we are on is probably the worst possible path we could have taken. Our future is already being lost in the name of greed coupled with horrendous levels of self-indulgence. And life IS already being made needlessly impossible for huge numbers of people and animals. Animals have just as much right to live on this planet as we do. On whose authority do we exploit them? What gives us the right to breed and slaughter billions of these innocent creatures every year? The glaring fact is: we have no right.
You go on to say that "at the same time they destroy they create". Excuse me for asking, but who are those mysterious they? I would suggest the people you are calling They, are in fact: us. And people generally are not in the business of creation. Vast numbers of people in this world do nothing more than consume. In the process, the only thing they "create" is one almighty pile of waste, of every manner and description, and at the same time cause untold suffering to millions of creatures (including other humans).
Yours,
Frank
Jouni: I'm sorry if I accidentally misquoted you and I would never intentionally misread what a person had written. I suppose that's just one of the unfortunate misunderstandings that can happen due to the question and answer style of posting to a forum such as this one. I did underline where I say no disrespect to the poster which was, of course, your good self. I wanted to make clear the quote was made solely for the purposes of the debate, and not in any way meant as some kind of personal attack. Which is something I would never do.
Yours,
Frank
quote:
Originally posted by jilola
A reply to the original post
What is the solution?
Examine yourself and live true to what YOU feel and perceive to be the real and truhtfull you. If that entails leaving your job, the do it. If you can negotioate your job and what you choose to define as your Self then do that. Only always be truthful to yourself and always accept responsibility of what you decide.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I think you hit that right on the head.
Yep, makes sense to me, I shouldnt think my belief is any more right than someone elses ( if there is such thing, which I doubt..too many variables ) we've all had different experiences in our lifes to change us into how we are today and what we believe, maybe tommorow mine will change, who knows. Thanks for pointing that out to me so clearly :)
Frank
Whichever your path you wish to travel is up to you but i'd like to get a better understanding of your point of view. ( if you don't mind that is)
You mentioned that we needed to graduate, is this because we don't follow in your point of view? or do we have to stop paying taxes, leave our jobs and head for the hills to graduate?..kinda unclear on this one...isn't being online and using your computer somehow connected to this system?
This is kind of a question...
I get this picture in my mind, say your on one hill by yourself with an underground bunker...on the other hill theres a family standing there with no bunker. Theres a siren that an air raid is incoming...would you say " I hate all this suffereing all over the world" , wave to the family and say, well goodluck and climb into your bunker? or would you run over to the family possibly risking your life and share your bunker with them?
This is not directed at you but in retrospect to myself.
"if your not part of the solution your part of the problem"
...but like I said, just trying to see your side of the coin and it'd be great if you could clear it up for me.
Douglas: Sure, as a society we should make an effort to improve things for everyone but that is one of the main points of the current problem.
It doesn't take much research to realise that vast numbers of the world's population are being severely exploited and for what? Merely to line the pockets of the already vastly rich multi-national corporations; groups who are blinded by their own greed to the extent they can only see the world as a place to be plundered.
These corporations work hand in hand with governments and are progressively destroying the very fabric of this planet.
The primary business of these corporations is largely to produce more and more consumer goods for which there is no natural need. Their entire structure is geared towards pampering to people's wretched desire for ego gratification, together with other related items such as fast food; burger and chicken-nugget outlets; or other manufactured foods such as tinned goods, frozen food, and all manner of stuff in packets; plus drugs such as caffeine in tea and coffee, and sugar production, are just a few examples of many.
I'm struggling to get to grips with this notion of "if". In the sense that, "if the problem grows so large then..." The problem is here, already. It has grown so large that it already affects virtually everyone. But because we in the western world could be said to be on the "good end" so to speak; and because most people are riddled with very much the same ego-attachments; and get similar kinds of diseases at similar times in their life... most people just don't see it.
Again, it doesn't take much research to realise the amount of sickness and disease in western society gets higher every year. This increase is directly related to the food most people eat. It's that simple. Virtually all sickness and disease could be eradicated if people were to consume a natural diet from birth. That is, a diet that would be natural for an animal known as a Human to eat.
Arthritis, for example, is a very common disease suffered by millions of elderly people (but the numbers of younger people getting the disease gets higher year on year). Here are some facts published by the BBC in one of their articles on the Internet, and remember this is just one disease:
The number of people suffering from arthritis has hit "epidemic" proportions, but is still not taken seriously, a charity has claimed. Figures released on Monday revealed that more than 7m people in the UK (15% of the population) have long term health problems related to arthritis. It is the second most common cause for people taking sick leave, after mental health disorders.
Millions of pounds are spent each year by drug companies and charities to try and find a "cure" for arthritis. The cause of arthritis is directly related to diet, in particular, the long-term consumption of dairy products. Remember, you read it here first on Astral Pulse. :)
I don't know who decided we were omnivorous. Probably a body of scientists sponsored by the meat industry I expect. As I said in a previous post to this thread, we simply have none of the natural faculties we would most certainly need in order to capture, take apart, chew, and digest... meat. Admittedly we could perhaps chase and capture some of the slower animals, but then what?
We haven't got the inherent strength, the teeth, the claws, the jaws, etc. Nothing about us naturally, as an animal, would suggest we should eat meat. Whether it did increase our chance of survival or not is debatable. But such an argument bears no relevance to our situation in modern-day western society.
Yours,
Frank
PS
I'm not on a raw-fruit diet.
Frank: Yes, when I used the word 'they' I meant 'us'. You would think that after 10 years of recieving red marks asking "they?" on my english reports that I would finally get it into my head to be more clear. I guess I used the word 'they', because in so doing my ego hoped to not be associated with the group of people who are actively destroying the world.
And what I meant is pretty much what you figured out. When we destroy what we have, it is in the process of creating it to better fit an image of what our ego-personalities think the world should be like. To us (you and me and whoever else wants to think the following way) it may look like they are creating a pile of crap. No arguments there. (To me it is a pile of crap and I'll say right here and now that practically every critque on the world you have given had not escaped me.) And if we ever hope to see things change to a way more fit to our liking, then we will be the ones destroying the way of things to create as we see fit. Probably, their will be people that think that we are creating a pile of crap. Hopefully, we will be at a point where we can work collectively for the good of all and all will be excited to help co-create our existence in a harmonious and balanced way.
quote:
You say that you can see the path humans have taken is not the best possible. Look, we're not talking about optimisation here; discussing how we can fine-tune the system and give it a little tweak to improve its efficiency a couple of percent.
[:)] That was not how I was intending for that line to be interpreted, but yes the interpretation fits. I guess, I will have to say that it is due to my own personal style that has developed over the years. It is very subtle and not many people would get it unless they had intimately known me for many years. Understanding, mixed with dry fact, and a twist of sarcasim. I believe quite certainly that this path is headed to ruin if our greatest fears are left drive it. Fortunately, there are people like you and me and the others on this forum in this world. So, I am not so pesimistic about the current state of things. Not to say that you are being overly pesimistic. I am pesimistic, but I've come to an understanding with myself that I will work with what I have and help in my own way and try not to be attached to the end results. I gotta leave room for the optimisim otherwise I'm going to cop the jism (hehe, inside joke)
I guess where I'm comming from is a strange place as I am still trying to incorporate some things. A weak understanding of advaia vedanta, buddhism, new age, my own personal feelings, etc. It's kind of difficult for me, right now, to be so certain about things, when I'm still digesting the idea that everything we experience is bound up with our senses and at the end of the day, the world we experience is not ultimately real.
Dang nabbit, I have to get ready for work. Well, I'll just have to end on that.
Frank_
I know you feel strongly about this, but maybe I should clarify what I was trying to say earlier.
I actually DO see where you are coming from with regards to the fact that its not 'if' its 'IS', concerning the global problems concerned.
I agree with you, I was using the 'if' to talk about how this already chronic problem may get even worse, if that's possible. But I agree that the problem is already ingrained, and in one sense you could almost admire at the skill with which modern consumer society has got everyone by the bollards so to speak, that is, if the consequences were'nt so awful.
But I was trying to raise a point about one of your earlier comments about how its better to avoid all this and to 'drop out' in order to get on with your own development. I agree to a certain extent, but my feeling is that ethically, it is the duty of all of us to get more pro-active in trying to combat all this and to try to improve things for everyone at least when its sensible for us to do so, and i don't mean from an economic viewpoint, I mean holistically.
This is what ethics is all about, I dont mean any divine sanctioned ethics, but good, old fashioned rational greek inspired secular ethics which is focused on finding some kind of better system for all of us here, now;
Yes, i know, most types who indulge in this spend most of their time in their ivory tower backslapping (or stabbing) eachother for their latest clever ideas, which never amounts to anything, and again its a field thats largely been taken over by ego driven academics, but I think there are a few that are not a part of this. and I think its a good idea to strive to help others, not out of some idea of divine favours but because it logically makes sense; if everyone gets into the swing of helping others, then we ourselves will benefit in turn, or at least thats the idea; hopefully, the end result is that the world, Monroe's ELS, will be a much more productive experience.
Ok, this looks impossible right now, but does thast mean we should all just abandon the idea? I notice you are concerned about compassion too, is it possible to feel compassionate about people in trouble while still walking away from them? I guess so, if much of it was their own doing, but I feel that compassion compels us to try and help them anyway.
Concerning the raw 'fruit diet', I wasnt meaning to have a go at you with the 'jesus' thing Frank; my question was a serious one!
I think the confusion stems from the fact that your profile says you eat a raw food diet, and when you mention your own fruit and veg, I think everyone assumed that you were meaning that as well.
Apologies for the misunderstanding.
As for the jesus thing, well, I was reading a copy of the dead sea scrolls, a very early source dating to before the present christian bible, and the jesus described (who does NOT refer himself as the son of god btw), promotes a diet plan of raw fruit and veg, no cooked stuff, natural bread, NO ANIMAL products, he even took offence at the wearing of any animal products like leather, he viewed such exploitations as an offence to 'the earthly mother'.
While I know you say you are not on the same diet, I found it interesting that this early teacher was telling everyone about the dangers of animal meat.
I was also reading that the greek mathematician Pythagoras was also a mystic and set up a school which again taught a diet of strict vegetarianism, so there does seem to be something in this idea.
All for now,
Douglas
Frank, like I said no worries [:D]
I just wanted to clear up (and it seems my style is a bit sarcastic/acerbic at times) that I was referring to a more limited problem than the one the thread is concerned with at the moment.
I think we are in complete agreement in that the ego-attachment and the resulting greed-power trip is what is the root cause of most of the horror in the world. The false (in my opinion) ideal that more is better and that somehow "I" have more claim for comfort and material goods pervades nearly all societies. This despite the fact that the moral and ethical guidelines the very same societies claim as theirs (namely religions) almost unanimously(sp?) speak for the importance and value of caring for those with less and of building a better life for everyone even to the extent of losing something of value or personal comfort in the process.
The attachment, unfortunately, can only be overcome by each individuals on his or her own however much we'd like to steer the world in a seemingly better direction. Thus each individual should first take care of his/her own ego and then act and behave in a manner that makes for a good example. Thus, in the case of global stife and suffering, it falls on the shoulders of the people inthe so called industrialized world to change their values and see themselves (myself included) as a part of a bigger whole equally the cause of the destructive behaviour so rampant today. That way the nations responsible for most of the greedy behaviour can start to change from within and possibly some day become more constructive members of humanity.
As things stand humans are probably as low ethically as is possible given the extent of mankind capabilities and level of thinking. The mind boggles at the ignorance and wanton harm done by us.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
PS: The fruit diet thingy is probably a misreading of your profile [:P]
Hello Halfphased,
kenneth, am I doing something wrong? I tried to undestand with my body, but as I tried to do that it felt like my mind was screaming in agony! it felt so heavy like my body was being suffocated... what's up? how can I understand something without my mind? when thinking stops, how am I suppossed to put any meaning into these bodily sensations? and wait a minute, how am I even aware of these sensations?! is my mind still secretly at work? It's like I'm throwing a wrench into the machine and it want to break apart, but at the same time it feels like something is trying to hold it together. weird
What a mess, huu ? .... Yup - Been there, ARE there *LOL* [:P] ... Seems like you could use a little guidance here [;)]
And yes, your are absolutely right - the very ACT of trying to understand your feelings and inner states with your mind is like using a pair of scissors to move the lawn - or the act of trying to explain a colour to a blind [:)]
So - even that I am no psycologist, or trained "professional", I have allowed my self to create a little "guide-line" of MY inner workings, in the hope, that you can recognize some of this in yourself as well [8)]
You THINK thoughts, and use thoughts when dealing with and learning from the actual situation at hand, and analyzing it. The end result is a MENTAL understanding of the situation.
You FEEL feelings, when you are dealing with the feelings associated with the situation at hand. The end result is an EMOTIONAL understanding of the situation at hand.
Your body DOES the situation, when you participate in the situation at hand. The end result is a PHYSICAL understanding of the situation. (Like repeating something so long, that your body "knows" how to do it without your thoughts interfeering. (Btw: What have thoughts to do IN THE ACT OF DOING anyway? ... they are GREAT at analyzing and preparing the act, but WHILE YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU HAVE THOUGHT? ... Nope, they have no place there, unless something needs correction somewhere)
Oh - and you have several other Abilities, that you also use all the time, like the ability to Taste, to Smell, to See, to Hear, to Feel etc.
Each of these "abilities" are like "Tools" YOU can use in your Life. But what happens, if one of these "tools" gets to use YOU instead of YOU USING THE TOOL? (What happens, when the car takes control of the driver? ... Or the quiet normal situation, when someone asks you "How are you today? ... If you (Like any other would do, actually), answers that question (that is clearly directed towards your emotions) with your mind, then you are actually trying to explain your feelings with your mind, and THAT is no-win situation [:O] ... your "mind" is using you, instead of you using your mind, if you allow your mind to answer the question)
The problem is, that you normally can only "be aware" or more precisely "Identify" yourself with one of these aspects (or tools) at the time, (Like if you start THINKING about a situation at hand, you sometimes freeze bodily), or if you Focus on your left hand, you loose focus of your right hand.
AND WITH NO GUIDANCE/AWARENESS FROM YOU, YOUR TOOLS STARTS ACT INDEPENDANTLY OF YOU, OR STARTS TO ACT DESPITE OF YOU [B)][xx(][B)] ) - so how do you solve that little quest?...
Well, there's a tool inside of you for that too [:O] ....
An ability in all of us, that we use when we are i.e. Driving and talking with someone at the same time [:O] ... The ability to split the awareness between several "tools" at the same time, and still be aware of every aspect of the situation. - The Act of "balancing on the knive's edge without falling to either side"
(I use that tool frequently, when I play music with my Band, I have to Play the Base, Sing backing, smile, following where we are in the song, "flirt" with the Audience, being aware of the other musicians and what THEY do, etc... In short A LOT of different situations, that each in itself are extremely difficult - and SOMETIMES, when I am very lucky, I reach that "place", or get in "touch" with that aspect of myself, that ARE AWARE of the all, and I can actually just be like a "happy passenger", and enjoy the ride [:D]
One of the strange effects of using (Identifying yourself) with this tool is, that THE MORE DIFFICULT AND DEMANDING THE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE SITUATION(S) GET (THE MORE TOOLS YOU "APPLY"), THE MORE QUIET, ALERT, AWARE AND AWAKE YOU BECOME [^]. (It feels like "time slows down" - the more "pressure", the more time you have to actually do the right thing, and the more you actually "relax" [:)])
Me using this tool on a "Okay, now i am walking" kind of way, is my next goal [:P]
So how do you "learn" this tool in yourself, so it becomes "Second nature" to you ? .... Well, how did you learn to Walk? Run? Adding numbers? ...
Yup - BY TRAINING THE TOOL INSIDE OF YOU THROUGH THE USE OF IT!! ...
How do you get into physical shape ? ... By thinking "I want to get into physical shape?" ... Yup - that's the first step - and the next step is to start running, and KEEP RUNNING ? ....
It's also "packed" with the same "Rules" as all the other tools inside of you, meaning that:
- The more you use it, the better you get at it [;)] (THINKING about doing it is NOT doing it [;)]).
- If you do it too much for too long a time, you "strain" yourself, like you can "overtrain / strain" yourself when training physically, emotionally, mentally, and then it actually gives the opposite result.
So - how do you "train" yourself using this "ability" ?
Well, I have found several exercises, that I find very usefull, but the most effective is using sight as a "starting-point" (Mainly because most of us have this ability, and are very skilled in it's use):
- Find a nice place out in the nature, relax, and look at the trees in front of you. Observe in yourself, that you tend to "focus" on different parts of these trees when looking at them, meaning you "move" your focus and awareness between different "parts" of the scenery in front of you, in order to obtain the "complete" picture. This is quiet normal behaveour, but that will change [}:)]
The "training" method in this is to "Look without looking", meaning that you look (focus) on the empty space between you and the trees, and then slowly become aware of the trees in front of you, WHILE KEEPING SOME OF YOUR AWARENESS ON THE EMPTY SPACE BETWEEN YOU AND THE TREES. Observe in yourself, that if you try TO hard, then you will move your focus to a specific part of the "scenery" in front of you, and loose the focus on the empty space. Also observe, that if ANYTHING inside of you "grabs" your awareness away from your "control", then you "Loose" that "looking without looking" state. I use this fact as my "trigger" for, when I loose my awareness to another part of me.
This (With practise) actually traines the "state of mind", where you can be aware of the whole scenery - sort of a "detached" way of looking - like You are looking inside yourself at what it is, that is actually looking on the trees. The keyword here is PEACE inside of you, meaning NO OTHER TOOLS THAN WHAT IS SEEING INSIDE OF YOU HAVE YOUR ATTENTION. ("Peace" like you search in a situation, where you REALLY need to concentrate on a difficult math-piece, and there is just to much noice, that keeps "grabbing" your attention/awareness)
Build on this excercise in the way, that once you HAVE that ALL-LOOK state nailed, try to keep that, and at the same time open your awareness a little bit to what your body is feeling. If you LOOSE that ALL-LOOK state, and start feeling instead, you have been "grabbed" by your feelings. Just "back up", get your ALL-LOOK state of mind back again, and try again...
If you are looking - and are continuously aware that you are looking, and suddenly starts asking yourself, IF you are doing it right - well, then YES!!! ... you are aware of TWO TOOLS INSIDE OF YOU AT THE SAME TIME!!! ... (The part of you that See, and the part of you that Thinks)
Another excersise, that I find VERY difficult actually, is to try the same thing with your breathing - can you be "aware" of your breathing without changing your breathing-pattern ? [:P] ... Remember, that if you CHANGE your breathing when you observe it, you are using TOO much force in your attempt - so "back up", and try again with a little less "energy" or "force" behind your awareness [8)] (If you can imagine how much force/energy there would be behind a "Kiss from an Angel" on your cheek, then apply that "much" energy/force as a starting point - it's actually that little amount of "force/energy" you have to apply to your attempt)
This is only a couple of training methods - actually ANY situation (and ANY tool in you), and in your life is a PERFECT training scenario. (Seeing without seeing, tasting without tasting, feel without feeling, think without thinking, DO WITHOUT DOING etc...)
But, like any training - be carefull to not start with TO difficult an excercise [;)] ... using a high-powered argument with your girlfriend (I take it you are male, or?) as a first excersice, is like starting out with running 20 kilometers when you come from a "Too much couch, tobacco and relaxation" environment [B)] ... that WILL be a total disaster *LOL* [xx(]
So here you have it - And the End-Result of this? ... Well - any one who have "been there" long enough to notice, will tell you, that it opens up a LOT of funny, deep and VERY exciting experiences [:P]
(Another pointer to that "ALL-LOOK" state is actually trying to look at what is moving, instead of looking at what is "fixed" in place - or looking at space between the objects. Spotters in the military use this ability too I think, and I use it when (i.e.) looking for a fly, that is keeping me awake at night, and is "hiding" somewhere in my bedroom - I just sort of "zone out" in me looking, and the slightest movement from the fly is like a bright light in a dark room - it stands out, because everything else in the room - INCLUDING ALL YOUR TOOLS INSIDE OF YOU (except your awareness) !! - is ABSOLUTELY QUIET [:)]
Hope this will inspire you, and bring you further in your Quest [;)]
That was very easy to understand and very informative. I shall give it a go.
Many Thanks
[;)]
I like what you said there Kenneth, i'm definetl gonna re-read that a few times and try the excersises. Funny when I think about looking at life in a different way, thats about as far as I get. I don't clue in as to having to train yourself as i've probabaly only looked at it in a limited way for most of my life.
A prime example for myself I should have realized, but clued in after your reading was. I used to be really into visualization ...for a specific healing I wanted to do. ( each day when I remembered i'd take my thoughts back to my visualization ) It was kind of out of desperation and went about it the wrong way but now my visualization is different than before alot more pinpointed and defined if I use it. So I can move it around almost like a feeler or an extra arm and feel it move over my body...to some degree. To think if I practice this more what else could come of it.
I've always said to myself it's foolish to think all I see before me is the only thing thats there then I don't do anything to prove myself wrong, just complain to myself lol
good job kenneth, i would have never had the patience to write so much, but i have some valuable tool for you instead, it's called :
The Tibetan Exercise of Paradox
Step One
Background:
In previous angel messages reference is made to an ancient exercise which allows the brain to do four things at once.
History indicates that this exercise was a state secret in ancient Tibet and that highly trained Tibetan rulers in Nepal were required to do this exercise as a matter of state security.
Doing four things at once is necessary to develop whole brain
functioning for enlightenment and mastery. In wholebrain consciousness a person is in a state of pure being and will, Delta brainwaves, at the same time they are in deep inward thought, Theta brainwaves, feeling, flowing, psychically sensing and changing in Alpha brainwaves while being aware of the five senses, logic, and memory of Beta brainwaves.
In enlightenment the four brainwave patterns alternate in perfect rhythm.
Energy shifts between WILL-THOUGHT and FEELING -SENSATION, or between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems.
Two at a time fire, the Delta and Theta, and then the other two, Alpha and Beta in a rhythmic manner in a similar manner of REM [rapid eye movement] in dream patterns.
The four levels of whole brain thinking are:
Delta brainwaves which produce a state of pure being, very slow oscillations, roughly 1 to 4 oscillations per second [abbreviated as ops]. This is the seat of WILL, or desire. This is the dominant brainstate of infants.
Theta brainwaves which produce a state of deep inward thought, approx. 4 to 6 ops. This is dominant in small children.
Alpha brainwaves which produce emotions and feelings and receives emotions and feelings from others, approx. 6 to 12 ops. All psychic activities are in this range. This brainwave is dominant in adolescents.
Beta brainwaves which produce the five senses, memory, rational linear thought and language, approx. 12 ops and up. This brainwave is dominant in adults.
The following physical and imaginative exercises lead up to the final exercise in which all four parts of the brain fire at the same time, and with even a little practice the brain gets used to working in this manner automatically.
The purpose of step one is to perform a simple physical movement with total focus and awareness of all bodily sensations. It is important to become ACUTELY AWARE of the bodily sensations of this movement.
If you are working in a restricted area, you may substitute the featured activity of fencing thrusts with another activity that requires less space. If you must use another activity, read over these exercises and apply them accordingly to your chosen activity. The use of fencing thrusts is the actual exercise used by Tibetan Rulers.
We are going to do a double fencing thrust.
Get something that represents a sword or just imagine that you are holding one. Now make a sudden forward thrust to the right, just as if you are practicing the art of fencing.
Pay close attention to every sensation that your body experiences. You will need a clear bodily memory of these sensations later.
Now spin around. Make a fencing thrust to the left.
Do not hurry through these movements. The idea is to pay close attention to your body sensations in making these movements. The five senses or beta brainwaves are activated.
Now repeat and turn. Thrust again to the right.
Deliberately, carefully, paying attention to every sensation.
Turn.
Lunge to the left.
Turn.
Lunge to the right .
Repeat until you have the clear sensation of lunging in each direction perfectly familiarized and remembered on a sensate bodily level.
Remember the sensations from the beta wave level above. [Beta wave= memory, and the five senses]
This time when you do a fencing thrust to the right, IMAGINE and feel that your body is lunging to the left.
This imaginary state of lunging in the opposite direction of the one your body is doing activates the alpha wave level as you FEEL the imagined sensations and the Theta wave level of brainwave activity as you PICTURE them.
The imagined action of thrusting to the left while the physical body is lunging to the right is repeated often with so vivid an imagination that it feels actually more real to you than what the actual physical body is doing.
The two bodies [ solid and imagined] lunging in opposite directions form a V if a camera could capture both the imagined action and the action of the physical body .
Now turn.
Let your physical body lunge to the left,
While you IMAGINE that you are lunging to the right.
Your attention is so completely focused on your imaginary body, which is making a fencing thrust to the right, that it is much more real to you than what your physical body is doing, which is making a fencing thrust to the left.
Your mind is fully engaged in the sensation and concept of the imaginary body experience while the physical body is doing the opposite direction .
The physical body is operating on its own like it does in a mechanical activity such as typing or driving a car.
Many variations of this theme can be done in confined spaces.
Any double action, like moving the pencil to the right while you imagine moving it to the left, works for this part of wholebrain exercise.
Move your mental eyes one way while your physical eyes move the other. Or try lowering your head while in your imagination you are lifting it. Try facing and walking in one direction while imagining you are facing and walking in the other.
The blood supply to the brain greatly increases with this type of exercise.
Step two:
Summary
In the last exercise we learned how to vividly imagine and feel ourselves performing an action that is the mirror image of one that the physical body is performing at the same time. This allowed the brain to do two things at once.
Again, we will do two things at once. This time walk four steps forward.
PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR BODY SENSATIONS WITH EACH STEP.
[Activates Beta brainwaves of the five senses.]
Do not turn around.
Still facing the same way, take four steps backward. Pay attention to each physical sensation as you do this. Now again walk forward four steps.
Now backward four steps.
Do this until you have it clearly imprinted.
Remember, you are facing the same way the whole time, but half the time you are walking forward and half the time you are walking backward.
You are now ready for the next step :
Now IMAGINE and FEEL yourself walking four steps backwards , AT THE SAME TIME that your physical body is walking four steps forward. [Activated alpha and theta brainwave states.]
Then IMAGINE yourself walking four steps forward WHILE YOUR PHYSICAL BODY IS WALKING FOUR STEPS BACKWARD.
Repeat this until the imagined action is more real to your awareness than what your physical body is doing and you can do this easily.
In your imagination, you will pass yourself coming and going.
You may feel lightheaded at first because the brain is getting an increased blood supply.
Remember that the imagined you must feel more real and vivid to you than the physical you.
If you have this part mastered, the rest will be easy. At the end of the next installment, your brain will be doing four things at once.
Just like learning how to ride a bicycle, you will never forget or lose this skill. Practice regularly.
Once your brain gets used to doing four things at once, it will be easy for you to apply this to the meditations of the divine virtues in which you produce Beta, Alpha, Theta, and Delta brainwaves consciously at the same time .
This means that you will be able to feel oneness with Universal
Consciousness in the Pure Being of the Delta brainwave state, create deeply in your inner world in the Theta brainwave state, feel in the alpha brainwave state, and be fully active in the five senses, memory, and logic of the Beta brainwave state all at the same time without effort.
Step three.
This is last phase of the ancient Tibetan Exercise of Paradox.
You are now adding two more movements to the one that you learned in part two.
Hold both of your palms in front of you with elbows bent, as if you were pushing .
Move both palms in slow clockwise circles while you take four steps forward.
Continue going four steps forward while moving your palms in clockwise circles until you can do it automatically and easily , remembering vividly all the sensations and feelings of it .
When you have done this a number of times, practice the other half of the exercise which is the opposite; take four steps backwards while moving the hands in slow counter clockwise circles.
Continue taking four steps backwards moving the hands in slow counter clockwise circles until you can do this easily and remember vividly all the sensations and feelings of it.
It is important to take your time with this. Repeat this until your body remembers the sensations.
By taking time to repeat these motions until the mechanical part of the brain has absorbed them completely, the next step is easy .
FINAL STEP:
Take four steps forward, moving the palms in slow clockwise circles while you IMAGINE that you are moving four steps backwards moving the hands in slow counterclockwise circles.
Then reverse, moving the physical body four steps backwards making counter clockwise circles with your palms, while IMAGINING that you are moving four steps forward with palms moving in clockwise circles.
YOU HAVE JUST DONE THE TIBETAN EXERCISE OF PARADOX!
Repeat.
Your physical body moves forward four steps, your hands moving in a clockwise circle as YOU VIVIDLY IMAGINE YOURSELF stepping BACKWARD FOUR STEPS WITH HANDS MOVING IN A COUNTER CLOCKWISE CIRCLE. Repeat for about ten minutes.
You may experience dizziness at first, since so much more blood is going to the brain than you have ever been used to . This dizziness occurs less and finally disappears entirely after you have done this exercise a few times. The brain will adjust to the blood supply of doing four things at once .
In future exercises, you may decide to skip the warm up steps and go directly to doing four things at once with the last exercise.
As we mentioned in the first part of the instructions, just as a person never forgets how to ride a bicycle, or type, once the brain has mastered this exercise it will not forget how to do four things at once.
The more you practice this, the easier it becomes, and the faster and better the brain gets at doing this.
When you first experience yourself thinking effortlessly on four levels at once in your ordinary activities, it may come as a delightful surprise.
THIS COMPLETES THE INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE TIBETAN EXERCISE OF PARADOX.
to the original post:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3787
BT: It is all very well agreeing about examining yourself and living true to what you believe is the real and truthful you. But how can people do that when the very organism they are using to perform this examining has become seriously faulty due to having gone way off track?
I remember the old computer saying: garbage-in, garbage-out. Which I feel very much describes a lot of people's thinking today and I see its effects all the time. But because it is so common no-one notices it. The abnormal has become normal in other words.
Virtually everyone in western society has become infected with a particular kind of mental disease; which comes from the food they eat and from the myriad of ego attachments that develop often from a very young age. Because almost all people have it, no-one sees it and no-one feels they have anything wrong with them. Only when you rid yourself of the disease can you see it in others. Only then can you see its effects which are truly startling, absolutely mind-blowing in fact. The disease affects us at a very basic root level. Such that our whole modern-day society is a reflection of it. Circumstances such as corruption, injustice, crime, ill-health, obesity, aggression, war, and so forth, all have one root cause.
Because people are infected at the root level, everything they think and do is contaminated by it. The effects are many and varied and people can do nothing to fight it because, as I say, it affects them at the very most basic level. Someone who is not infected will find it an enormous drain living within an infected society. Reason being their body will be in a state of constantly having to guard itself from infection. This can take place from food and from ego attachment. The former is much easier to control than the latter.
Regarding your hypothetical scenario, I find it interesting you use a war analogy. That would, of course, be typical and many times people have come to me with something similar.
When people discover I am a pacifist, for example, they generally come back with some kind of hypothetical scenario. Which more often than not follows along the lines of my coming home to discover someone broke into my house and is raping my wife. Then they ask me what would I do just stand back and let them? That kind of thing. But the very reason why they think in this way, is itself a symptom of the disease.
As for your question: I am not overly concerned about my life and it is not something I can lose. I am as dead now as I will ever be.
I can lose my physical, admittedly. Which for now I would like to keep as it's the best one I've had thus far. So I protect it from harm and always feed it the nutrition it needs to stay healthy. But that's about it. I don't know how I am going to shed my physical this time around, and whatever I've got lined-up for myself I am happy to face when it comes. In other lives, for example, I have been stabbed to death in a gangland squabble; drowned in icy water after being torpedoed; shot through the head with a single bullet after a drugs deal went awry. So I guess dying in an air-raid would not be all that bad considering. :)
Eventually you will need to graduate. How you do that is up to you.
Some people try by following some kind of religion, others might take the new-age mystic approach, or follow in the footsteps of some guru, or whatever. A number of people become incarnate with the idea of being a teacher in order to help others on their path. But these people are few and far between and normally the arrangements between a teacher and his or her pupils, i.e. how when and where they are going to meet up, and so forth, are decided beforehand in the non-physical. False gurus are two a penny and have precious little to offer. All they usually do is take.
Graduation is the same for everyone. You need to attain the correct degree of thinking in a certain way. Once you can do that you can live in the land of milk and honey, so to speak. This is basically when you really start living. What we are doing now isn't real life. We are all still at school learning, and many of us remain at first-grade despite having spent many lifetimes within the earth-life system trying to get off that bottom rung.
Within the non-physical there is no need for any codes of ethics, or laws or anything like that. Reason being one of the ground rules is: like immediately attracts like. So if you are a complete rotter, then you will immediately be attracted to rotten places where you will reside amid all the other people who are as equally rotten in the same way as you are.
The whole point about graduation, the end goal as it were, is to get to the stage where you are able to live in the best environments. The title of this forum is Spiritual Development and that is what it's all about: graduation.
Once you graduate and gain access to these places life becomes especially interesting, because you get far more degrees of freedom. I have seen how these people live and it's mind bogglingly good. I know that if a person could get a taste of the life they can enjoy, they would immediately make any changes necessary in their physical life in order to graduate: because it really is that good. There simply aren't the words to express to say how great it is; living in a world where nothing is negative; no-one fights or argues; just pure cooperation between both people and their environment. And they all just do it naturally, which is why it is so mind boggling. The energy these people radiate gives you a joy like nothing on earth. Once you feel that joy in your heart you want to just remain in that place forever. It's love in its purest form.
Here also you find the great composers and artists producing their work, for example. They practice their art for as long as it takes. A violinist may spend the equivalent of perhaps 500 physical-realm years practicing and developing a particular technique. Then they incarnate and go on to play violin in the physical with the intention of becoming a virtuoso, and in turn inspire millions of others with their great music. The same applies to other great artists in whatever field. That is how all the world's great artists developed their talent or learned their craft, and anyone is at liberty to do this. All you need do is graduate.
Unfortunately, many people screw up their development by wasting their physical lifetimes over and over again. They generally set-out with the best of intentions and have clear goals on what they are to achieve. However, they get sidetracked from a young age and all their original instincts become lost under a heap of mental garbage.
After they shed their physical there normally follows a period of recuperation, following which they go over all the stuff they should have achieved, and then they try again after a period of time. This time can be long or short or whatever else in-between. The act of this happening all those countless numbers of times has created the appalling circumstances we see today; a society that is out of control with no moral direction, and with people so totally devoid of compassion it's unreal.
Yours,
Frank
I wish I could go in your shoes to see what you see but I can't unfortunetly. Sounds great to live around these types of people. The only thing I still have trouble in understanding is....which I caught myself doing at first is...or at least how I gather it is that your path is the right path and that the ones who aren't on your specific path haven't graduated yet. That reminds me of religion or christianity which I tend to stay away from....i'm starting to doubt there is really one right way of living...I think it's an illusion really...were all here to learn our personal lessons, thats about as much as I believe....and I don't think we'll know the truth till we leave our bodies...or if there is such thing as a pure right way to live....just like in iraq, the terrorists think they are living purely and will be rewarded for taking the lives they did. I bet the terrorists that were in the planes on 9/11 really thought they were gonna be gods right hand man after killing all those "infedels"....the thing that bothers me when I think of that is...did they follow their hearts?...maybe....all I feel is right is to help others along the path, help your fellow man keep their heads up and learn myself along the way...if i'm wrong in doing it so be it...like you i'm willing to face the consequences. I don't care too much about dying...I don't recall any of my previous lives...but after you mentioning yours I can see why you'd want to keep your distance lol :)...
You know if I had the oppurtunity to change my living situation this is what i'd do. All I want to do is create music, ( funny that you brought up the arts ) which i've been working on for 3 years. I'd love to just be put somewhere and locked away and just live life creativly, just have some food, some drink, some nature around me to enjoy, and my music..to express the way I want to ....but I can't. I have to pay for the necisary tools to be able to do this....then I have to pay for rent, and all these other things.
So maby sometime down the road i'll join you in your path, but i'll still be working to help others even if i'm no longer in the system so to speak.
I agree with you though we are all flawed, even our dna is messed up..but I don't think were meant to be perfect I think thats the best part of our lessons....
I think i'm wrong though to suggest that helping people is the way to go to you..I can't judge you, your doing fine :)
as the saying goes, "it's all good" :)
BT: I feel it is unsound to think about ways of living as being right or wrong. With me I look at it as being the difference between what is natural and what is abnormal. The more abnormal our circumstances become, the more our body suffers and the more we lose the ability to discern between what is good for us, and what is not.
What I'm talking about has nothing to do with religion. I haven't got a religious bone in my body. Never have and never will. It is simply a question of living naturally, as Mother Nature intended. Because living this way has the wonderful effect of accelerating a person's spiritual development.
We are all here to learn personal lessons, which is true. But most people in western society have not got a clue what those lessons are. So how can a person learn something they know nothing of? Do you know what personal lessons you need to learn? Most people in western society are so far off the path they don't even believe we live multiple lives. Their thinking has become so screwed, significant numbers of them firmly believe they have only one life. Anyone who suggests otherwise is classed as some kind of idiot.
You will, of course, learn the truth after you shed your physical. But by then it will be too late. You'll have to incarnate again and, chances are, the same thing will happen. So you'll incarnate again and again and again... which is what most people do. I don't mean to sound like I'm having a go, but don't you think that is just a complete waste of time? And doesn't thinking about that stir you into doing it a different way this time around?
You say you want to change your life in one breath. Yet in the next breath you say you can't. Well, with respect, what you say about the money side of things sounds to me like some kind of excuse.
Your terrorism example is as one-sided as I would have expected. But that's what happens when people start to see situations in terms of sides. Each side believes they are on the side of goodness and justice, and people like me roll our eyes in despair at the sheer horror of it all; the devastation and the waste of our planet's resources; all such a complete, utter, total waste; being governed by sick, ego-fuelled monsters hell bent on destruction. It saddens me to core of my being.
Man transgresses every natural law in existence while convincing himself he is the very crown of creation. Then the poison of hate-filled living erupts into war. Terrorists are denounced as villainous. Their actions most certainly are, but as people they are just misguided creatures who have lost their way in the jungle of violence. Most people pay lip-service to the power of love, but only the few have the faith and the courage to try living by it.
Yours,
Frank
Frank, I am not rid of the disease, but I clearly see it in me and in others. I mean, if you don't see that there is a problem, what are you going to fix? Maybe that means I've graduated... I don't know. If I did, the testing requirements weren't hard enough ;) But I'm not living in a land of milk and honey. I still get caught up into things. I still get stressed out even though while it is happening I can be watching myself and laughing at how silly I am. I work with people stuck in the consumer mindset all day and I find that if I come to them with an open heart I will likely be witness to a beautiful smile and some fun conversation. If I stand there and think "blah, I can't believe this person is getting so upset because her photos aren't ready 30 minutes early" then I'm likely to be witness to squinty eyes, an upset voice, and some crazy negative energy sent my way. Sure, it sucks, that I have a chance to be subject to such attacks... but to get caught up in the attack only shows attachment to my ego. I know that the universe is a much bigger place than I can even imagine and that we are more than this physical body, etc. So, what's the point of letting this person get to me. Maybe, I'm just reinforcing their ego-sense, but maybe just maybe they will see that I am responding in total love and not just because I think that if I do not satisfy their needs that I will be punished with their craziness. And maybe that love will inspire them and give them access to seeing with more open eyes. Then, if seeing this in me and they ask me my secrets I will get to explain to them my lifestyle...
If all people like you and me move out into the hills then aren't we taking the control rods out and just allowing a nuclear meltdown to proceed uninterrupted?
Really, i do get stuck on this idea of graduation. I also get stuck on this idea of environments. Do we get to graduate from the idea of graduated environments? Maybe these questions could be considered punching below the belt? But I am serious when i ask these questions and at the same time I laugh at myself and... hehe
Oh, i should probably delete the last part because I haven't thought it all the way through or explained myself thourougly enough. But once again, I got a pair of sandals to catch... lol (you'll get it if you think in a super corney way)
I don't know what my lessons are. If I was born with an study guide on what lessons I had to learn in this life i'd have it made but I don't. Nor do I carry any knowledge from before this life that I can bring to mind at this moment. I can only follow my heart. Do you know your lessons?
Halfphased
One thing I found that worked really well with certain types of customers is to use some humility. When you intentially show yourself as less intelligent or a nutcase, or put yourself below them somehow it seems to brighten their mood :) ..and when they walk away all smug as if, damn that guy was an idiot you can smile at them when they walk out the door.
I do that with my boss sometimes, his personality is "stress" "oh I should just shut this place down and kick everyone out!" or "they're only here for a paycheck they don't care about anything else" ...that kinda attitude....took me awhile to find something that worked but I found talking about something really stupid I did or point out things I don't know and laugh about it it seems to make him feel at ease then he can relax and joke around a bit and forget about his troubles.
I have some regular people that I see each week, most i've gotten to know most, it's interesting to see each persons different personalities and how they react to yours....but theres one i'm not sure how to handle. He just seems miserable...he comes downstairs, checks out and will barely look at me and sometimes walk out without even saying anything. You can just hear him saying in his head, just pretend i'm not here I don't want to talk....It really bugs me to see anyone in that kind of condition, i've tried sparking up small conversation once or twice, but it usually ends in a one or two word answer and thats it....I thought of just letting it go and just not saying anything but then i feel like that would alienate him more..
I remember this one guy that just stared at me the whole time like he wanted to stick a knife through my forehead. He was with another person, wanting to visit someone. I just looked back at him as i was ready for whatever he had for me, then as he walked away he took a piece of tissue paper, nearly ripped it out of the box and went around the corner, later I found a piece of tissue on the ground. I guess that was him having the last word lol...
Halfphased: When you graduate, you graduate away from having to keep incarnating into the physical in order to learn lessons. Graduation takes place in the non-physical and gives you the ability to live in different words. There are many more worlds to live in and far better ones than this physical world. If people only knew this, they would try harder and would be far less willing to waste their time on trivia.
IMO what you have is a false sense of importance, and you are dwelling on issues that do not really benefit you in any significant way. In my view you are too concerned about what others think, and dwelling on their moods, and so forth. Who cares what they think? If someone is grouchy because their photos aren't on time, or whatever, so what? That's their problem! It's really not something that should even enter your awareness.
You need to seriously expand your horizons and always keep focused on the big picture. Then you will see all the title-tattle that now concerns you just fade away. You won't see it as being "attacked" because it simply won't affect you. You already realise that if you get caught up, it only shows up your ego attachment: which is absolutely correct. Now you've got to take that dispensing with ego-attachment attitude several major steps further.
Yours,
Frank
I think i'm ready to reincarnate for eternity for the cause of helping others :)...anyone wanna join me!? :)
Until a hand reaches down and slaps me silly telling me to avoid human misery and go meditate in a cave i'll continue following my heart..even though it's been broken a few times by things humanity has done, is doing, and will do tommorow...it still works pretty damn good.
Good luck guys I think I found what I needed from this thread i'm out.[:D]
quote:
In my view you are too concerned about what others think, and dwelling on their moods, and so forth. Who cares what they think?
This is exactly that I meant by what I said in the initial post to this thread. What defines who one is? Is it the outside opinions and expectations or is it what one recognizes as the true self?
As long as you worry about what other expect and think is as long as you are stuck in the ego delusion. That's why I said the cause for most all personal (I didn't say that explicitly but I should have) suffering is in the definition of self and not in the surrounding circumstances and reality.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Edit: I just finally got around to reading the entire thread. The cause for suffering lies indeed not the in the circumstances for one can do one of two things to shed them: Either get away from the immediate environment that causes the suffering (n ot possible in every circumstance as witnessed by the millions of people stuck in war zones, drought areas, oppressive governments etc) or detach yourself from the outside influence by seeing that you are not this measly physical creature and that what you are is not defined by others but by your individual realisation of what you are and you r chosen relatioship with the surrounding reality.
In some cases changing the environment (such as moving away, changing your lifestyle etc) can be the solution but the truth is that any change in the physical environment is only an attempt to detach yourself from the rampant material attachment (ie. ego and wanting to outdo others.)
The important thing is to understand that you can live in a materialistic environment and even be a sourve of positive change if you manage to cut away the cancer the very ebvironment tried to impose on you, namely that you are the result of the society and that you are essentially dependent upon physical goods and that you are in fact a separate individual from everyone and everything else. None of that is true.
We have one life yet manby incarnations. We are not defined by random circumstance but by choice (be it imposed from outside.)
The important thing is to see and profoundly realise that and then to act to preserve and express the truth by your actions. The actions may be to get away from anything to the contrary or to live in them and bend in the wind, so to speak.
The choice between the two is individual and other choices undoubtedly exist. But the botton line remains: Be who YOU are and not what you THINK you are EXPECTED to be.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Hi all,
Great thread.
Thanks,
Stephen [:)]
Alright, I'm banging my head against a wall here.
Frank, how can you say:
quote:
Who cares what they think? If someone is grouchy because their photos aren't on time, or whatever, so what? That's their problem! It's really not something that should even enter your awareness.
You need to seriously expand your horizons and always keep focused on the big picture. Then you will see all the title-tattle that now concerns you just fade away. You won't see it as being "attacked" because it simply won't affect you.
and also say:
quote:
You are sensitive to people's moods as I am. I too find it difficult being among crowds of people as, after a while, I start to feel drained from all the negativity. For example, in typical cities these days you cannot just simply drive down the street without coming across hoards of ego-maniacs using their cars as some kind of awfulness weapon. The only way I found to survive when I lived in London years ago, was to work as few hours as possible and the rest of the time I'd drive to country areas and go for long walks. As soon as I could afford it I moved to the country, and now I gave up the rat-race altogether.
For the most part I could care less if someone is upset. (Occassionally, I let it get to me as being something personal and that is only when I am extremely tired and usually I am quick to recognize what is happening.) What gets me is that it is draining on many levels to have the focused dissatisfaction of a customer directed at me. I am T I R E D and I feel all twisted inside after a day of work. But isn't this only so, because I am thinking about it as them vs. me and when it happens I think that I don't want their negative energy because it is so draining? If I just accept what is happening would I not be drained or is that not to be helped? Or do I need to accept the fact that yes it is draining and if I don't like being drained then I should move on? I guess I'm a little too far out in the metaphysical / existential waters for my own good.
I would love to give up the world. There is nothing here for me except the idea that I would like to help people out and bring joy into their lives. Maybe I am exageratting, but that feels to be about right.
Hi Frank, I agree with your main points.
Regarding the terrorism example earlier for example, that was a perfect example of someone thinking they were NOT being one sided when in reality they could only see the situation in terms of 'us: good, them:evil. The reality of course is much more complex.
While I think we should all try to minimize such viewpoints as much as possible and try to stop thinknig in the common straightjacket world view, I think it is impossible to completely think outside of such terms while being in the physical, since it is one of the basic ways of interpreting the world while here; You can certainly try to minimize it as much as possible, which is where I think you are coming from, but you cannot stop 100% from such thinking.
For example, even in making the point, you yourself set yourself apart from 'them', ie those stuck in ego driven superficiality.
I agree that getting hung up on 'right and wrong' is not the best way to deal with things; most of the most horrific acts in history are perpetuated by those thinking they were doing the 'right' thing.
For example, despite the Jewish lobby's and general media's attempt to morally simplify the holocauset by painting the nazis as evil demonic villains, the nazi's at the time thought they were doing the 'right' thing, no matter how misguided and twisted their perspective was.
I think this is one of the biggest problems of mainstream religion, certainly the middle-eastern religions ie judaism, christianity and islam: they all have a 'devil' figure or 'dark side' which humanity can use to avoid responsiblity for their actions.
This must change. yes the nazis were mad, but no, we cant blame it on influence by 'Satan' or the 'forces of darkness', it was down to something far more terrfying, it was down to human nature; we need to deal with that.
Douglas
Halfphased: I can say that because there are major differences in our respective circumstances. When I say I feel drained from all the negativity, it is from being bombarded by the collective negativity from large numbers of the typical kinds of people who in big towns and cities.
I'm not talking here about any one-on-one involvement.
This collective force is all around you in the ether. It's like a huge grey cloud that hangs over these places. It's depressing and debilitating and is impossible to withstand for any real length of time. Which is why, as I told you, I would work in the city for as little time as I had to. Then I would drive to the countryside, go for long walks, etc. Later on, when I started earning a little more, I would stay overnight on the Friday and Saturday in a little country cottage I bought for that purpose. But getting upset over all these one-on-one involvements like you do, is something completely different.
I have met quite a number of people who escaped the rat-race and who now live a humble life in peace and harmony with nature. And they all say basically the same thing as me. So I know I'm not the only one who is thinking this way. Problem is, to survive in a rat-race environment a person has to shut down their awareness to the point where they stop becoming human. They lose all real sense of compassion, for example. Something which is so widespread it's unreal. Yet no-one sees it. Well, apart from an ever so tiny minority.
When your sense of compassion is lost, you subsequently lose the ability to see your own circumstances in their true light. This condition leads a person into becoming more and more self-obsessed; together with all the subsequent huge ego attachment. People normally never recover from this condition within the course of their current physical life. Because it just envelops them completely, and screws their thinking totally. So they have to become incarnate, usually, over and over again.
As I respectfully suggested in my other post, you really need to get out more and learn a little about the wider world. See how other people are suffering; caught up as Jouni has also pointed out in areas where food is short, homelessness is rife, and bullets decide the difference between life and death.
If you feel helping people out and bringing joy to their lives is your thing, that is an admirable thing to think. So don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that. But just thinking about it isn't going to do anything.
Also, in all seriousness, I would suggest you redirect your efforts toward those people in the world who really need it the most. Doing that I am sure will bring more joy and satisfaction in your life than you can imagine right now.
Yours,
Frank
The pain of the world certainly can be overwhelming Frank, and certainly we should do what we can. But, I don't know if really the answer is to tune into all the negative energy.
Just how would you define your relationship to existance? What meaning do you find in your life?
Simply Existance itself is radiant. I feel that even as we live in the middle of the unconsciousness of civilization, we should center ourselves in the radiance of awareness.
Kiauma: Yes, people should do what they can. Because the situation is pretty dire. Problem is they don't. And it's not a question of me "tuning in" to negative energy. Spiritual Development is a question of being aware and seeing the reality; and of having a life that focuses on issues that are meaningful in the wider scheme of things.
It's all very well you thinking about centring yourself in the "radiance of awareness" (whatever that happens to mean). But it's no use telling me, you go try telling that to some mother whose child has just died through not having the bare necessities of life like ordinary clean water. Better hope she doesn't have a gun to hand. :)
Yours,
Frank
yes, people should do what they can, but first we have to be immune to the disease, in order to work against it, if you are not truly free how can you help others, doctors can't heal their relatives becouse of emotional involvement, the same here
anyone remembers how it was like to live in rat race, separeted from everyone, alone, distrusting, suffering ??? for me it wasn't that long and i clearly remember it (not that i still suffer, moved forward)
no hope, and then some religion..., no, that's not it, and at last some f***ing shining golden rope, uff, got out of it, now work with the trauma and in the end become immune
now, do we got out of that ourselves ??, partly, willing and hoping, but we found someone, some teachings that allowed us to understand out situation, and change it in right way (no tapestry here )
there are almost no people that got out of it by themselves exclusively
and now think about your society, look how miserable they are, surely, they would want to change it, but.....
they never had a chance !!!
it wasn't there only more illusions
taking it into account, how do you know that the chance will be offered to you in next life ??
you don't
that's why you must help yourself, then others, and do it NOW
frank choose quarantine, that's fine with him
others may choose to work with disease and therefore get immune
you have plenty of time bla bla bla, if you don't solve your problems you will be obliged to return here, and you don't know your time,you may feel that you have but.. it's only a feeling
how many lifetimes can pass until you will be given another chance ??
think about it
don't think that you are special, have special mission and surely, when you will be reborn, eveything will fall into place, that's ego knocking at the back door, ups, maybe i'm not that briliant ...
Frank, I take your points and I understand them. However, your critque of me is lacking understanding of who I am and how I think. I am very very very social concious. As I have statted earlier, I have been seeing the world in a similar way as you do for many years now. I am repeatedly brought to tears over the state of the world. But for the most part I try not to let myself get caught up in it and for the most part I am successful. I am able to watch the things around me and not be drawn in by them but still understand them and see their effects, etc. My mind is as far out of the rat race as it possibly can be and still be in it. My only concearn career wise is to make a little money to get through the rest of college and then I will either teach, join peace core, teach yoga, or travel. And for that matter I pretty much am happy to let things happen as they will. Not to say I'm not trying to set a heading... the heading is set and I am certain i will get to where I am going and as far as the details are concered they will form in time.
And after that brash defense of my wimpering ego, aye you are right and I have thought this for awhile that I should be focusing more on helping people who really need it. I guess there is a bit of the last of my fear left down that avenue as to do that I would pretty much have to completely let go of worrying about my financial situation. Hrm...
But i still think that your saying our situations are different may not be so accurate. How big is the collective human consciousness campared to the vastness of the universe. If you were to set me, and the collective human consciousness next to the universe I'm pretty sure I and it would be pretty undistinquishable. So, what scale do you want to use and ultimately are there really any such things? And if I am sensitive in the one to one situation then deffinetely I am sensitive to this one to many situation. And maybe when someone is focussing their dissatifaction at me they are tapping into that dissatisfaction vibe from the collective human consciouness... I don't know i'm just wandering around trying to defend myself probably how silly I'm sorry have a nice day
There is much pain and injustice in the world - but the world is far more than just pain and injustice. If I say this does it make me spiritually unconscious? Or is it more conscious to also acknowledge the good in the world?
The radiance of Being has been felt by anyone who is serious about meditation. To clear the mind to feel the radiance of Being is the entire point of meditation.
Yes, suffering is rampant. Buddhism teaches, however, that while pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.
I don't know Frank, I feel you are almost talking down to me, referring me to the pain of another to tell me to do what I can - but what do you do? Haven't you removed yourself from humanity as much as you are able? Do I detect any irony in this?
I think the New Age impetus to go fix the world is a big guilt trip. I am sure there are those who have the call and the ability to help, but frankly most people have a hard time just keeping their own head above water. Should we abandon our families, our homes, to rush to take care of a situation that is even worse than the one we can hardly maintain here??
The primary thing that causes pain in the world is unconsciousness. That is what is at the root of greed, of avarice, of incompetence, and of unrealistic demands - of living through the identity of the ego.
Yes, we should do all that we can, but we have to start eliminating the pain of the world by eliminating ours, first.
It's not what you say in the beginning of your post, IMO, that makes you spiritually unconscious... it's what you say in the last line. And who said I have removed myself from humanity? I only ever removed myself from the rat-race. Since doing so I now feel more human than I ever have.
Hearing what you say about what Buddhism teaches a person makes me fortunate I'm not one of them. Suffering is optional? Oh right, so the billions of animals that are raised every year in some of the most inhumane conditions and slaughtered causing them horrendous pain and suffering: all that's optional for them is it?
Then there are all the children dying of starvation, but that's just more "optional" stuff to you I suppose. And then when one of these kids accidentaly steps on a land mine, which tens of thousands of them do every year, and gets horribly maimed (or dies) in the process, they choose to do that? And anyone that desires to help is just on a guilt-trip...
Gosh, I am truly thankful I'm not a buddhist.
Yours,
Frank
Perhaps you are right Frank.
Perhaps also you should look closer at how the Buddhists differentiate between pain and suffering, and how they recommend dealling with each before you condemn them.
Rereading my post Frank, I apologise. I state quite clearly my defensiveness, and it was uncalled for. I hope you can forgive me.
quote:
It's not what you say in the beginning of your post, IMO, that makes you spiritually unconscious... it's what you say in the last line. And who said I have removed myself from humanity? I only ever removed myself from the rat-race. Since doing so I now feel more human than I ever have.
I will point out though, that it sounds here to me like takeing care of your pain, by moving to the country, was exactly what you did. No one can help someone else, who cannot help themselves. That was my real point, and I wish I had kept it to that, throughout.
Again, my apologies.
not everyone can do it frank, but becouse we can do it now, we should
it's not about going to africa and teaching, it's about changing what we can, the first being ourselves
i can't do anything to help starving, blowed up, but i can affect people around me, and if they understand they will teach people around them ... and so on ...
suffering is optional for some of us ..., noone said that for all of us, and only humans can reach enlightment, and only some of them can understand the teachings, and only some of them are willing to do it, and only some them will have the strenght to carry on, and only some of them will succeed...
For anyone just reading the end of this thread, i suggest start from the beginning and go through it. It is really very good, with highly applicable suggestions for improving your life/outlook/peace of mind. Great stuff here really. thanks everyone for sharing.
daem0n: You make some good points, yes, it is about changing what we can and the first is ourselves which I accept. After all, if you can't do it yourself then you can't teach it to others; and there are many practical ways a person can make a good start which I detailed in my early posts to this thread. Thing is, if the only people suffering were a relatively small minority who refused to pay heed then so what. The planet could easily encompass that. But what really gets to me is the suffering that is caused to the billions of innocent creatures, all of whom have just as much right to a natural life as we have.
Yours,
Frank
Frank_
There is a problem with applying your suggestions.
I don't think anyone here seriously disagrees with where you are coming from, but it is not very easy for people to opt out, at least to the degree that you have the luxury to do so, in your comfortable suroundings in Nice (a place which is not for those who are financially challenged I might add).
For one, most people need a certain amount of cash in order to function, or to be able to put this new lifestyle into effect.
For example, while I would love to retreat to a simple lifestyle in the country and grow my own stuff etc, this requires a good deal of money. you yourself have worked for many years, allowing you to 'retire' to the country in this way. However, most of us do not have that luxury, at least not yet.
The majority of us are still struggling to make ends meet, and unfortunatly, that means being in the 'rat race' to a certain extent.
In effect i think you are being overly critical of many people here who attempt to balance both lifestyles, often with great difficulty.
So i would say, do not be so quick to make sweeping statements about how we conduct our lives; sometimes, circumstances are a little more complicated than being 'obsessed with materialism'.
Regards,
Douglas
Douglas: thank you for pointing that out and I do agree to a large extent as I did say in my very first post, and I quote: "This may sound a little extreme to some, but I've been at this a long time so I've learnt a lot; and it's impossible for me to condense 20-odd years of learning into a paragraph or two without sounding extreme."
I'm sorry if I have sounded overly critical and I do understand the difficulties presented when it comes to balancing both lifestyles; as it is something I have done for quite a few years, and I know only too well what it is like to be in the rat-race to a certain extent: sort of half in and half out. It's not an easy balancing act to perform for years on end, but I suppose I think of difficulties as more of a challenge than most people. Which is why I have difficulty agreeing with you on the money aspect.
I know only too well what it is like to be broke. But it just made me even more determined. And as a human race there are tremendous challenges ahead of us, which makes me determined all the more. And I think, gosh, if only people would realise the seriousness and the gravity of the problems we are set to face. But it is a fact that most people are more interested in what's going on in Eastenders and Coronation Street than affairs of the planet.
Though I do take your point.
Yours,
Frank
But it is a fact that most people are more interested in what's going on in Eastenders and Coronation Street than affairs of the planet.
Now THAT is something which I think we ALL agree on!
A couple of years ago I was looking at different options for living outside of the city or at least in a less stressful environment.
Where I live in Edinburgh, there is a Buddhist monastery to the south, in nice settings in the countryside; the monks spend their days meditating and growing their own crops and so on; people were free to come and stay there, 'payment' being in the form of helping out and becoming part of the community.
it sounded ideal; unfortunately, in all my enthusiasm I forgot that Buddhism, while containing a good deal more sensible ideas than many other mainstream religions imo, was still that: a mainstream religion, and as such I would be required to partake of all their prayers, meditations and other traditions.
I would be quite happy to help out in the running of the place, growing crops etc, as long as I could be left to practice my own interests (astral projection/exploration) in my spare time, but alas! This didn't appear to be permitted!
I have come to the conclusion that the only way to do this is to 'bite the bullet' (or at least part of the bullet!) and partake of the rat race for a few years of my life, as long as it takes to get the required mullah to allow me to leave for somewhere less stressful, but for this duration to never lose sight of my objective and to practice my ap skills as often as possible, getting into a routine so that I never lose sight of 'the real world' ie the bigger picture.
Then in the future, I can have the assets with which to live a simpler more stress-free life somewhere else, where I can really get on with my own interests and developments.
I think this is possible since I do not feel I am obsessed with 'keeping up with the Jones's' like some other people, therefore I am not bothered about competing with my peers and climbing up the property ladder, getting the latest car etc, these things don't mean much to me; I am perfectly happy with functional things that get the job done, for this reason, earning enough to get the lifestyle I want is NOT unfeasible, since I have no interest in a Porsche, or a huge 8 bedroom full detached villa etc etc.
For this reason, some of my friends find this amusing and shake their heads, although I have noticed that they also show a certain sense of admiration as well, as if 'I respect those who can do that'; well, anyone can if they really want to, which is I think what this thread has been about.
The key is to basically not be bothered about the 8 bedroom detached and the Porsche, will it make you happy? If not then forget about it, you will feel better for it; although I understand only to well that peer pressure is very powerful, you have to be able to resist it!
btw living in the city does have its benefits sometimes; it reminds you of what you are trying to rise above!
Every time I walk along the road and see someone in their Porsche revving their engine and shouting obscenities at the person in front because they took a fraction of a second too long in moving off, I thank the gods that I don't have the same mindset as that guy!
What a sad, horrible world view he has.
Anyway, enough rambling for now, I'm sure everyone has been sent to sleep, I know I have!
Regards,
Douglas
You know, about this rat race.
There is a diffrence between the rat race when you see success or faiure in it as a reflection on your self and the rat race when you see it as a toll to make ends meet but only vest in it an instrumental value.
I'd suggest everyone to take a look at why they are participate, not how or what the race apparently says about them. For many the quest for money, success, fame and ego boost has taken the driver's seat without it even registering in our consciousness's(sp?). This usurping of the core self by the rampant ego is exactly (imho) what is behind most, if not all, of the wrong doing, war, famine, general and specific suffering and pain in the world. Why are we so hung up on success as measured by bits of paper and by how many people want to stalk us on the street? Who the heck are we, really?
This is why I suggested earlier in the thread that to overcome suffering in many/most cases requires one to figure out what exactly defines who they are. It doesn't solve all problems and obviously not the ones faced by the masses of people in the third world. But since the nations and inhabitants therein are the ones with the wherewithall to relieve and even end the unnecesaary suffering the onus to change and redefine the value systems is on thoose very people in the first world (that's us) countries.
We need to figure out what's important and who we are and then help those around us to do the same because I fear the only way to a global change of values is by example to those who are most stuck in the ego/greed trip.
One of the Zen Buddhist 4 Great Vows is to save the ten thousand sentient beings. But how does one save ten thousand beings? Save yourself first, then by example and compassionate guidance the rest. No voodoo, no mumbo-jumbo. You canät save a drowing man if you yourself are drowning.
this ends the flash of the blindingly obvious [;)]
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I was reading through some of the other threads and I found this quote and is pretty much what I was getting at with the starting of this thread. Being able to go out into the world fresh each day without the old clutter or negative associations you might have had to a previous event.
"
My old teacher back in the 70's taught me to prepare as if naked to go out and experience... meaning that we must not have any pre-conceived notions on anything. She was correct about that.
This is also true when reading the recorded words of the man Jesus, for then we can see the simplicity and beauty of his meanings, without the clutter of our own thoughts about it. "
I thought about this on my way home yesterday...I walked by this bakery and could smell the aroma as they were making bread...thinking back as a kid, how i'd love that smell and go into the store with a smile on my face just happy in the experience....now it's so difference theres no magic there it's just....it's too tough to explain really it's alot of things, assumptions,...the experience just seems like it's behind a bunch of clutter, and prevents me from really experiencing things as how they are.
Hi BlackTalon,
Now you are REALLY on the "right track", if anything like that exists [:P] ...
Your sentence about smelling the aroma, and the thoughts about how we "loose" that child-like "Here and Now" in the "clouds of our own unfinished business of everyday life."
So to cut to the chase i'd like to learn how to shed off some of this baggage that i'd gained over the years so I can't live in a world without having to judge myself or others....and my question is what is the best way to go about this? I do meditate from time to time but i'm wondering if I should be concentrating on my thoughts and emotions or if theres some special techniques for this.
To my experience, yes - there IS a "special technique" for this - and that is to experience (being aware) of that in you, that is keeping you from fully enjoying the aroma of their breadmaking! ... And to do that to a degree, that it in the end you CHOOSE to release the ties that keep it secured inside you, or you loose your "attachment" to it, and are able to see it (and experience it) for what it really is!
And please - don't repeat the same error I have made on numerous occations(and still do *LOL*) - to look for the answer with your mind, if the problem is located in your feelings.
I have alowed my self to "read between the lines" in your post, and I sincerely hope, that that is OK with you!
now it's so difference theres no magic there it's just....it's too tough to explain really it's alot of things, assumptions
...The EXACT moment when you finished typing the "just", and started with the "....", my guess would be, that you WERE in that feeling / state of mind, that is actually keeping you away from being able to
smell the aroma!
Then as you started to type "it's too tough..." you moved FROM that feeling (your emotional body), and into your Mind (your Mind-body). ("Body" in this context is just to let you know, that you HAVE the option of observing and working with them as well, the same way you work with your physical body to get in better shape).
So - what does this little bit of info tell you? ... Well, to me that is HOPE ... A SOLLUTION - that it is a possibility to DO something about that "feeling" that (If you are anything like me) I would guess feels like it "captures" you in a very little and very "I do NOT like it in here" way? ... And you push it away, or more correctly - you "move away" from it, and into your Mind - sort of "hide" in your thoughts. (I know I did that [;)]).
So what options do you have ? .... Well, as I see it (Based on VERY personal experience!!!), you can:
- KEEP MOVING AWAY from that feeling, and do that for the rest of your life.... And my experience with this option is, that it WILL hunt you down, and follow you for the rest of your life ....
- KEEP PUSHING IT DOWN. Well, if that is your choise, my experience is, that it WILL "pop up" again each and every time you come in touch with a situation that produces the same feeling, or anything resembling it.
- KEEP WISHING FOR IT TO GO AWAY ... Well, to my experience (And I have been there too [B)]), that is just another "flavour" of the MOVING AWAY option. You just hide in your fantasy instead of in your mind...
So, what is missing in these options? .... Well, the "path" that I have chosen for my self now, is to:
- IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM, JOIN THEM!!! .... Meaning I try to "learn" the feeling or state of mind to a degree, where I CAN CHOOSE if I want to be there or not - and at that point, it changes from a "NO-GO" zone (Unconciousnes), to a "THAT'S ME TOO!!" (Conscious) sort of state.
You might ask "What is the difference between now and previously, where I have been there for so long, and nothing happened? ... Why would you want me to "go in there" again, when I just recently have been able to "free" my self from that feeling? ...."
Good question! ... The difference is, that you CONCIOUSLY Move into the feeling!! ... It is YOU that chooses to "face" that feeling, and NOT the feeling that is trying to capture YOU! .... (And believe me I know - this IS like facing your worst enemy on a dark, rainy and stormfull night!!! - you DO get your "hands dirty" - you DO have to "Pull yourself together" - again and again...
And you DO have to make that ONE cruisial decission .... that THIS TIME I WILL FACE THAT FEELING - I WILL NOT TURN MY FACE AWAY AGAIN!!!"
This is the process of "turning led to gold" ... EACH AND EVERY TIME you "face your dark side" with awareness and courage, with the knowledge, that EVERYTHING you sence, feel and think (and EVERY reaction that might occur) MIGHT be part of that "dark" side... You win a little bit of yourself back - you become more "alive" again. This is like slicing cheese - you don't actually FEEL like you "win" anything while you are in it - but afterwards, AFTER the tears are shed, AFTER the rage has been there, you KNOW ... you KNOW in the deepest part of your being, that YOU HAVE WON ... that YOU are on the path to being HUMAN again - the path to being COMPLETE again ....On the path to finding your TRUE self.
(THIS exact text has been MY catharsis too - my girlfriend came up here, asking what I was doing - and I read her this text. I got about 5 words into the text, and then I felt my tears beginning to run down my cheeks, and a strong feeling spreading out from my throat. I CHOSE to stay in it (ME - that have only cried one or two times in my adult life - actually CRIED REAL TEARS ... and CHOSE to stay in it ... IT IS MY CHOISE TO FEEL THIS THROUGH !!!! ..... (And I am crying again now [:)] - and laughing too - crying and laughing AT THE SAME TIME !!! ....... reading this out loud for my self - alowing my countious self to feel what this text - what I am writing RIGHT now - is doing to me !! ..... Stopping once in a while to FEEL what there is .... to BE AWARE of what is .... I feel sort of light-headed and dizzy right now .... I is NOT a "nice" feeling, but more like a "Am I going to faint, or what is happening ?!?? ..." this AS I AM WRITING this .....
NOW I choose to sort of "step back" a bit - to take a deap breath ... to stand up and walk around for a minute or two ....
(Okay - about 10 minutes have passed now. I got up, walked around a bit, and actually felt like I was a little drunk [:O] .... The feeling and tears (Sorrow like I haven't felt in about 25 years) came in waves, about 30 seconds sorrow, followed by the sort of peace you would find in between contractions. I cried my heart out, alternating with small laughs of relief and Thumbs up sign for my girlfriend to let her know, that I was still OK (and aware), and suddenly the dogs began to bark downstairs.
We went down there, I grabbed some juice, and suddenly I began to laugh .... and I couldn't stop laughing [:D] .... The relief was enourmous, it too came crashing on to me, like wawes on a surfers paradise - and after that there was ..... silence.
Silence inside like you wouldn't know - silence as if you have lived beside a jet-engine your entire life, never knew anything else, and it suddenly stopped. [:O]
As a little reflection - right before the tears and cries began, I had a choice (Not like someone speaking "You now have a choise between...", but more like the sudden choice, when the road in front of you split, and you HAVE to choose), I have had many times before in my life, but NEVER BEFORE DARED to choose - and that was to ALLOW the pressure to build, to let it fill me. Always I have chosen to turn away - to take the "easy" way out .... but not this time. FOR ONCE i chose to let it come [:D]
Okay - I have to go and be with the love of my life, so there you have it - In all it's simplicity, with ME as an example .... MY path to my self.
Thank you, BlackTalon - for through your posts helping me into a situation, where I could "come through" my self, to get not a slice of my self back "as usual", but a whole part at once [:D]
Thanks!!!!
Hello Everybody,
It is now about a day later, and I feel weak, empty, vulnerable, sore ... not at ALL like I have regained a major part of my self back from unconsciousnes, but more like the hangovers after a VERY wet evening [8D].
But (luckily) I have been here before - i KNOW from previous experience the process of saying "goodbye" to something in my life, that I for a very long time have build my life upon (by not consciously recognicing it). I KNOW, that this is what I feel like, when "some part" of me is dying - in order to make room for something new, something different.
You can't make an omelet without breaking the shell on the eggs.
Well, back to my headache and my dizzyness - I'm glad it's over in a couple of days, and THEN I know, I will begin to slowly learn this "new" part of me, that I have set free - slowly integrating it in my self once again...
Talk to you later - back to work now [:)]
I'm glad you had some release, it always feels great I know like you somehow connects to your child or true self. I cry alot, well tear up, but it usually takes music along with emotion. I remember listening to some music, thinking about my childhood, and i just started crying but smiling at the same time, i put my chair to the side and just sat on the floor....my cat came along and wanted to be pet...and for that moment...i was a child again...where all that mattered was the experience at hand. If I can accomplish this in real life on a constant basis i'll have it made...doubt i could keep a job though lol.[:D]...
It's funny when you mentioned like you were feeling drunk. Many times I get into a certain mood where I just open up and I write all these thoughts and emotions then when I wake up the next morning I have this feeling like "omg I hope I didnt say something stupid lastnight" lol...almost like I wasnt myself ....or maybe I was...but you know what I mean.
I cry a lot too and laugh a lot also. It is funny my laughing and crying sound so similar that people usually have to see my face to know what I am doing.
Kenneth, *hugs* from across the seas. I have read many many books and a countless number of web pages and you, my friend, have been able to communicate in a way I can relate too that I have not found before.
Hello BlackTalon and HalfPhased,
I cry a lot too and laugh a lot also. It is funny my laughing and crying sound so similar that people usually have to see my face to know what I am doing.
It is exactly the same experience I had the other day ... In the end, I found it very difficult to distinguish between the sorrow and the laughter. It is also there, that I get the fact, that feelings are sort of "paired" together - and that is also why I would like to get a "list" of those paired feelings, because then I can actually "see the feelings that I have chose not to see". (And THEY are what is filling a lot of room inside me - that is keeping me from reaching ME).
I'm glad you had some release, it always feels great I know like you somehow connects to your child or true self. I cry alot, well tear up, but it usually takes music along with emotion. I remember listening to some music, thinking about my childhood, and i just started crying but smiling at the same time, i put my chair to the side and just sat on the floor....my cat came along and wanted to be pet...and for that moment...i was a child again...where all that mattered was the experience at hand. If I can accomplish this in real life on a constant basis i'll have it made...doubt i could keep a job though lol....
Yes - I couldn't agree with you more, BlackTalon. The release is great (and painfull, and draining and and ...), but the fact that you IF FOR ONLY A SINGLE MOMENT were in "touch" with your inner self actually gives you your temporary "Goal-line" - gives you a "state of mind" to COMPARE all other "states of mind" with, and THAT is very, very valuable (IMHO)!! ...[:)]
Now you don't have to "think" you know your Inner self, or fear the Doubt if you ever are going to reach it - now you DO know your goal IS inside of you...)
Just as a little "teaser"... What will happen, once you HAVE reached that goal ? ... Where will YOU set your next "Finish-line"?) - you know in what direction you can work with yourself (You now know That state of mind), and you know WHAT tools you have to work with - Spirit, Mind, Feelings, Energy and Body.
Do you think, that THAT state is the Ultimate "Inner Self" ? ... Or is it like everything else in life, that it IS boundles, that there ALWAYS are more refining and more details showing up, if we put our awareness on it ? ...
So if you were to "pour water" down this "pipe-line" of Spirituality -> Mind -> Feelings -> Energy -> Body, (and the "rule" being: what you are aware of (and allow!) is where it can run), where would it meet resistance (inner blocks), and where would it be "pulled off course" (Inner Attractions) ? .... How much "water" would your Body eventually be getting? ...
How "Familiar" and "Confident" are you in your Physical Body, compared to i.e. your Emotional body ? ... or your Energy body ? .... And why shouldn't your Emotional body receive the same amount of Excercise your Physical body gets?
(And all these questions is actually ME lining them up for ME, but written in a letter to YOU) ....[8)]
That is also why I was so happy, that I actually SUCCEEDED in "going through" my catharsis - because it SHOWED me VERY clearly my different bodi's reactions (And thereby I gained a lot of NEW awareness!!!):
- The physical sensation, the tears and cries.
- The energy sensation, the "lumb" in my throat, the "moving" and "Breakthrough" of this lumb (However fast it went, I STILL caught on to it!)
- The Feelings, the sensations of them coming in wawes, how they use the Movement of Energy, and (Here I am NOT very aware yet), sort of adding a "flavour" to this energy at the same time?
- The Thoughts, the CONSTANT attempt to "pull me away" from FEELING this, by trying to "grab" my attention (and thereby moving my attention FROM the feelings. Doesn't actually matters where my attention are focused according to my Mind - just NOT on the feelings [}:)]).
- The Spiritual mind, sort of add's the "stage" on wich all this takes place. It felt like "a crowd cheering me through to the Finish-line, for a perfect 1'st place [:P]".
...And then I can't stop but think of all the things I DIDN'T have awareness enough to, to actually be aware of - those things, that just sort of "slipped by" without me noticing!
With regards to "keeping a job" when IN that state of mind. I think, that it will not be a question of if you CAN keep a job (What I am absolutely SURE that you can - your awareness and presence will simply DEFLATE every possible Life threatening problem into just a funny little experience even before it has occured), but a question of if you WILL keep a job - If YOU can "grow" within those frames a job will eventually put on you [;)] ...
Kenneth, *hugs* from across the seas. I have read many many books and a countless number of web pages and you, my friend, have been able to communicate in a way I can relate too that I have not found before.
I thank you, HalfPhased - for those kind and encouraging words. They mean very much to me, that I KNOW that I am not alone in this, that there are others, that are also tumbling around here [:)].
another thought:
"one picture says more than thousand words"
i mentioned that we should affect our surroundings, but by no means do active preaching, we start out from the point of view of our listener, like "do you like your workplace" and then "why not", small steps, frank was leaping like neo and the rest lagged behind (those who haven't are not disturbed, i hope [;)], that would mean that they indeed lagged behind, even if they haven't thought so[;)])
about two years ago i read a lot about buddhism, tried to convince people, but there were 2 problems :
1)i still had problems which buddhism should solve
2)i had no point of view how it should look like and where were we then
3)it wasn't practise, just knowledge
now i don't have to run around and try to convince anyone, my presence is enough, some people are disturbed by it, but they are the ones that have to back down, they see what it is like, and some want to listen ...
just wanted to show the situation from another view, when you know (or think you know) what to do orwhen you do it,
give example, be the active one, not the closed sarcastic "sage" in the ivory tower
on the other hand, you must know the moment, distinguish between easening the symptoms and healing, and don't get labeled as i was (the buddhist), when people could label me they felt they are back in control, he's a buddhist, he must have worked hard, it's not for me, so it is okay that he exudes tranquility and i'm suffering, becouse we are different, and above all, he's a buddhist and i'm not, oh and i forgot to mention, that he's a buddhist and i'm not ... you get it
still i'm streamer, hope you get the message
frank:
it's not fair that most of the world is suffering, billions are slaughtered, but on the other hand, when was it fair, this makes our work so much more important, we do not reclaim, but create, the seeds we planted blossom now, the seeds we plant will blossom in future, we can't just change place, it would be like neglecting/hiding from our emotions, many of you have read spiritual books (or kenneth posts, for that matter), the world is similiar to us (macro/microcosmos), although you cannot feel it clearly now, THINK when you will run out of places to hide ...
another stream, heh [;)]
take care
quote:
Originally posted by daem0n
another thought:
"one picture says more than thousand words"
i mentioned that we should affect our surroundings, but by no means do active preaching, we start out from the point of view of our listener, like "do you like your workplace" and then "why not", small steps, frank was leaping like neo and the rest lagged behind (those who haven't are not disturbed, i hope [;)], that would mean that they indeed lagged behind, even if they haven't thought so[;)])
BT
Are you saying here that we lagg behind frank because he's looking at things in a grander scale or because his point of view of leaving the ratrace to a more solitude like life is better? I'm curious in the interest of understanding you what exactly you mean by this...i'm a bit slow sometimes :)quote:
about two years ago i read a lot about buddhism, tried to convince people, but there were 2 problems :
1)i still had problems which buddhism should solve
2)i had no point of view how it should look like and where were we then
3)it wasn't practise, just knowledge
now i don't have to run around and try to convince anyone, my presence is enough, some people are disturbed by it, but they are the ones that have to back down, they see what it is like, and some want to listen ...
BT
What exactly were you trying to convince people about?quote:
just wanted to show the situation from another view, when you know (or think you know) what to do orwhen you do it,
give example, be the active one, not the closed sarcastic "sage" in the ivory tower
on the other hand, you must know the moment, distinguish between easening the symptoms and healing, and don't get labeled as i was (the buddhist), when people could label me they felt they are back in control, he's a buddhist, he must have worked hard, it's not for me, so it is okay that he exudes tranquility and i'm suffering, becouse we are different, and above all, he's a buddhist and i'm not, oh and i forgot to mention, that he's a buddhist and i'm not ... you get it
still i'm streamer, hope you get the message
BT
I'm not sure what you mean by don't get labeled as I was. How does someone labeling you affect your growth? I know if I seen a buddhist which I have high respect for i'd probably wonder how they view the world compared to me and basically be attracted to their energy? or just the way I percieve them...peacefull.....i see what your getting at but I still don't understand the problem about how you "think" people are labeling you.
from what i understood frank was showing the goal, not the road [;)], of course there is a possibility that i missed it, it evolved into large topic, so no harm meant [;)]
i tried to convince people that doing good is better than thinking only about themselves and not giving a sh** about their surroundings
sense of alienation, in poland buddhism is more of a exotic cult than a way of life/philosophy/religion, and thus people don't feel unity, don't compare things i experienced with what they experienced, there are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between, it's like he's a buddhist, it's some eastern philospohy, maybe cult, so for sure he doesn't enjoy life , some are shocked that i can drink, smoke, have sex and such, there' a lot of prejudice, it's mainly catholic country, 90 % declare themselves as such, but only 10 % are true believers, the rest are atheists who hate themselves and their lives, and others, but they won't seek for something better, that's the effect of communism, everyone is waiting for something
and it runs in the families ...
at leat that is what i experience everyday, some poles on this forum may disagree, we have different lives after all ... and still i'm happy with myself and with my life [^]
thank you everyone for sharing! i to were in this state where things were very funny and a few minutes later i were in hell, and then back again, and at both the places at he same time... and many other states ofcaurse. jihoo! really nice i thaught. something was really happning! but this turned to more and more bad emotions, i never had no breakthrough and now i just try to get rid of the bad emotions through various techniques- watching TV, listening to music, daydreaming etc. i suppose something went wrong for me... im sure its possible for me to just "do it" and sometimes i do, but most of the time i just run and hide, and i blame myself alot to. as i write this i feel so pathetic... being so sad. did something went wrong there?
please, if you think of something that could be of help (much on this thread have allready been) yes but, i think that what i try to say is that everything is up to me after all, but at the same time as its true its just another bad reason for me not to take advices.
this thread have really taken some interesting turns since the last time i read! its really in present tense... cool.
its so good to hear that others also feel fragile from this training!
/jonas
quote:
but this turned to more and more bad emotions, i never had no breakthrough and now i just try to get rid of the bad emotions through various techniques- watching TV, listening to music, daydreaming etc. i suppose something went wrong for me... im sure its possible for me to just "do it" and sometimes i do, but most of the time i just run and hide, and i blame myself alot to. as i write this i feel so pathetic... being so sad. did something went wrong there?
Yep, sorry [;)] You are trying to deny 50% of what makes up what you perceive as you. Everyone, even the Ascended Masters(tm) have bad thoughts, disruptive impulses, vices and carp like that. The thing you need to remember is that you have the choice of which thoughts to express, which desires to follow and how you define who you are.
Trying to deny stuff is tantamount to acknowledging that they are what define you. For better of worse you have moments of saintly brilliance and moments of base #¤%&/.
Why not accept that you are capable of horrible things and extremely evil thoughts and behaviour and then go on to choose not to express those qualities in your life. Make it a mindful and conscious choice.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
quote:
Originally posted by Jonas K strand
thank you everyone for sharing! i to were in this state where things were very funny and a few minutes later i were in hell, and then back again, and at both the places at he same time... and many other states ofcaurse. jihoo! really nice i thaught. something was really happning! but this turned to more and more bad emotions, i never had no breakthrough and now i just try to get rid of the bad emotions through various techniques- watching TV, listening to music, daydreaming etc. i suppose something went wrong for me... im sure its possible for me to just "do it" and sometimes i do, but most of the time i just run and hide, and i blame myself alot to. as i write this i feel so pathetic... being so sad. did something went wrong there?
please, if you think of something that could be of help (much on this thread have allready been) yes but, i think that what i try to say is that everything is up to me after all, but at the same time as its true its just another bad reason for me not to take advices.
this thread have really taken some interesting turns since the last time i read! its really in present tense... cool.
its so good to hear that others also feel fragile from this training!
/jonas
You were saying you were laughing one minute then had bad emotions the next is there some thought or something that changed your mood into negative feeling? or do these emotions just wave through you without any thoughts attached? I cant remember a time where I had a negative feeling without thoughts attached to it...or maybe an image.
thank you. the thing is, that time was filled with very much bodily sensations, just after a meditationcourse. and these strong sensations made me happy, sad etz. so ofcaurse there were thaughts at that time. i couldnt really handle all the sensations and im in the same situation now most of the time. the sensations are more gross now. maby thats why i dont feel/think much pleasure. but why should pleasant sensations be better to work with than unpleasant? yeah... ohh... its just that i cant really handle what im into now.
i have learned that its not enough to meditate cos if you do it "wrong" you wont come out of the sufferings. ..and thats a good experience.
im not into labeling certain sensations as good or bad,
jiola - i understand what you mean. i have done the "right things" all my life it feels like. this includes being nice to people when i am angry and trying to perfect my maners. this non acceptance of my evil half is not good... i see myself running into walls and getting smashed to the ground from time to time, and those are no thaughts, more like pictures and impulses... so this evil 50% side of me tries to kill me? why?
/jonas
quote:
so this evil 50% side of me tries to kill me? why?
It doesn't try to
kill]/i] you, unless you were being metaphorical.
The "hitting walls" experience is the result of trying to avoid the deep realization that everyone is capable of destructive and horrible behaviour, that we all have egocentric tendencies no matter how much we like to pretend we don't, that it takes a huge effort to see through the fog of me-me-me and the dualistic we vs. they.
I can't say I have the solution to your dilemma but I think it would not be a wasted effort to examine what it is you perceive as the "perfect" you and the "evil" you and figure out what the difference is; especially in light of it being within your conscious choice to be one or the other.
You mentioned in your initial post that you're much more confortable and at ease when you're alone than when you're with other people. Spend time thinking about what it is about being with other people that causes the unease (trite but often ignored course of action.)
When I did it the root cause was my trying to please and live according to the expectations of the people around and not according to what I intuitively perceived as what I was.
I think it's often best to let people know you are angry when you have a cause to be. Doing anything else will only add to the stress of being around the people. Just remember that there are constructive ways of showing anger and then there are destructive ways; conscious and mindful choice is what will keep you on the right path.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Jonas: Self-obsession or a compulsive preoccupation with the self is a common failing amongst people. Most people in western society have this downward-spiralling habit, and it is immensely tricky situation to extricate yourself from.
I would suggest also that most people in this society are so ingrained in their ways of thinking they would find it impossible; and so they have to keep returning, time and again. Which I personally am not all that bothered about. After all, it is their problem. What does concern me (a lot) is the pain and suffering they cause to innocent creatures who have just as much right to be on Earth as we have, and the rape and destruction that is being caused to the planet.
We are only human after all, and I would say getting a little miffed now and again or a little frustrated with the way things may have turned out on occasion, is fairly normal. And probably a whole lot healthier for the mind than bottling it up.
But the key words here are "little" and "now and again" and so forth. If you find yourself actually feeling anger, this is a serious situation (in my view) which should be worked on right away. Feelings like anger, rage, jealousy, hate, greed and so on, are symptoms that are directly related to fairly severe ego attachment. But in western society these kinds of feelings are so prevalent they have become normal to the extent where people hardly notice them. What they do notice, however, are the symptoms of sickness and disease, both mental and physical, that this western way of living causes to the body. And more and more people are getting sicker every year. Problem is, only a tiny few make the connection between the problems they are experiencing and their way of life. Instead they blame other factors such as age, or bad luck, or dream-up some other lame excuse.
I used to do a lot of voluntary work with what society calls "disadvantaged teenagers" and so many of them existed in a permanent state of confusion. To me it was like their body was naturally rejecting the circumstances they were living in, which the young person could sense. But the confusion arose from them thinking "why" when they were trying so hard to live a "normal" life. Well, all very normal in the sense of western idealism. But about as far from natural as it is possible to get in terms of the body's true needs.
Yours,
Frank
I appreciate your ideals of peace and harmony Frank, and agree that 'normal' society is far from nurturing or often even beneficial.
Still, honestly, I wonder what makes you so sure that your espoused ideals are the 'right' teleology of the universe. After all, the only constant is change, and evolution implies not only improvement through adaptation but also the demise of all interim adaptations. It just seems that while your ideals appear admirable, and 'common sense' would seem to dictate the desirability of them, they seem rather out of step with the reality of the human condition and the necessity of the pain of evolution and constant change that is the 'norm' of the universe.
I'm not questioning the choices you make for yourself, that is your right and obligation, in my view, but you seem to be attaching your values to the rest of humanity as well, which I am curious about.
Kiauma: Please understand they are not solely my ideals of peace and harmony. People throughout the ages (admittedly an ever so tiny minority) have been saying the same for thousands of years, while "you lot" waged war regardless.
I just feel that perhaps the time has finally come where people, in the main, begin to actually act on the peace and harmony stuff rather than just paying lip-service to the idea. You know, rather than fighting for peace, just everyone simply stop fighting and the peace will come of its own accord.
I am not attaching my views to humanity, just the relatively small minority of people in the western world that cause the most damage. You say the reality of the pain of human evolution: all I observe are the innocent suffering the pain while the minority claim to be evolving.
You think western society is normal? No, it is by no means normal. It feels that way because that is the only kind of norm broadcast by the western news media. Anything too far removed from that norm is presented as a kind of freak situation such as something caused by a terrorist, or an "act of god" and all that freaky kind of nonsense.
Where you say "human condition" I strongly suspect you mean western-world human condition, and by your idea of improvement I also take it you mean technological advancement. But how have advances in technology improved people? All technology has done is enable the powerful to kill the less powerful in bigger numbers, and in a shorter time than ever before.
Oh, and it has enabled us to talk about it over the internet... big deal. I (for one) would willingly trade that for all those billions of wasted lives any day of the week.
Yours,
Frank
Frank,
Your reply has given me cause for pause. I have once again underestimated the barriers to true communication, so I am afraid I must backtrack to re-cover and clarify my points and position. I apologise in advance if it appears time consuming, but finding once again I am on the defensive I can hardly decide where to even begin.
You think western society is normal? No, it is by no means normal. It feels that way because that is the only kind of norm broadcast by the western news media. Anything too far removed from that norm is presented as a kind of freak situation such as something caused by a terrorist, or an "act of god" and all that freaky kind of nonsense.
No, no, and sometimes.
Where you say "human condition" I strongly suspect you mean western-world human condition, and by your idea of improvement I also take it you mean technological advancement. But how have advances in technology improved people? All technology has done is enable the powerful to kill the less powerful in bigger numbers, and in a shorter time than ever before.
No, no, and not entirely.
Before I go on in more detail, I will point out where I think your assumptions are coming from.
Kiauma: Please understand they are not solely my ideals of peace and harmony. People throughout the ages (admittedly an ever so tiny minority) have been saying the same for thousands of years, while "you lot" waged war regardless.
Please explain to me how this is any different from any of the other us/them belief boxes characteristic of every contentious or even militant perspective in the history of human conflict? I mean, all of the symptoms are there; 'You' are placed into one (morally superior) group, while I am placed into the morally opposite group, the 'aggressor' - without so much as presentation of evidence or a trial - guilty until proven innocent!!
In my view, Frank, intemperate avidity has always been the main-spring of conflict, and it is exactly the 'us/them' perspective which has been the main psychological mechanism, so to speak, that allows it to happen. In effect, the mechanism of 'us/them' perspective allows a certain dis-identification of a person as human, as being different from yourself, and less deserving. This is precisely the psychological echanism employed in racial slurs or other labelling, such as "you lot". Then, the way is open for violence, whether psychological or physical.
I just feel that perhaps the time has finally come where people, in the main, begin to actually act on the peace and harmony stuff rather than just paying lip-service to the idea. You know, rather than fighting for peace, just everyone simply stop fighting and the peace will come of its own accord.
Well then, Frank, I will put it to you; When are you going to actually act on the peace and harmony stuff, rather then espouse it out of one side of your mouth while seperating and condemning the diversity that is all around you out the other?
From the first post:
What i'd like to do is shed myself from my ego, so I can gain more of a childlike view of the world. I know it may be tough since I can't really unlearn and unsee what i've seen in my past. It's just that all these assumptions about the world I live in, how I view myself, how I think others view me, judging other people thinking I know them by how they act, or look. It's rediculous and a waste of energy. I also want to detach myself from certain things as I have a problem with confrontation.
So to cut to the chase i'd like to learn how to shed off some of this baggage that i'd gained over the years so I can't live in a world without having to judge myself or others....and my question is what is the best way to go about this?
I suggest that accusation, blame, and labelling are just more of the same attitude of conflict that will lead to the same place. To really transcend such aggressions, we need understanding, awareness, and also patience. Then when we act, we can be assured of acting correctly.
Kiauma: This is not a question of morals. It is a question of living a life which is free from adding to the deaths of billions of innocent creatures every year, who have just as much right to live on this planet as we have; and living a life that does not add to the ongoing and ever increasing mass rape and destruction of our planet.
Surely I do not have to personally provide evidence of that, when the evidence is there for all to see. After all, I am by no means the only one. Problem is most people living in western society choose to simply ignore it. Hence my trying to point it out. Also, war looks to have been, and continues to be, a favourite pastime of these kinds of individuals. So it comes as no surprise to me that you gauge what I have to say in terms of a militant perspective.
I put the phrase "you lot" in quotes so you would know it was not literally meant. I'm sorry you didn't pick that up, and I naturally meant no offence. (One of the problems when trying to communicate through a forum as opposed to face to face.)
Yes, extreme greed does rather seem to be the mainspring of conflict, and I would agree the "us/them" perspective has been the primary psychological mechanism. This is why I (for one) would rather present a different overview. Not that many people accept it as yet, but it doesn't stop me trying to set a good example. What good it will serve I don't know. But I'm willing to take the chance.
I do my utmost to live a peaceable existence, but that doesn't mean to say I cannot express an opinion. I know you are trying to make a cute point which leads me to think you may have been a lawyer in another life. :) But on a more serious note, I can readily encompass your point of view because I realise you have not had the benefit of the myriad of inner teachings I have been fortunate enough to have experienced.
Your suggestion that accusation, blame, and labelling are just more of the same attitude of conflict that will lead to the same place is true enough. But is not your post then a ready demonstration of how we excuse one in favour of pointing out to the other?
Yours,
Frank
It appears I am getting my point across, though if somewhat misdirected. The subject of this thread is 'Shedding the junk' not 'Frank' or 'Kiauma'. As such, within our separate points, I keep trying to relate back to the subject. I think we have made our cases well, and the rest is superfluous.
I bow to you Frank.
I bow to you Frank.
sounds like a martial arts contest!
Honour has been preserved, the ying/yang remains balanced.... ok I'm talking tosh now...
Anyway, i think we've all decided on the best idea... ditch the meat an animal products, people... and that nasty caffeine and granulated suger..
for those who look on in horror, there are plenty alternatives and you can even get veggie cheese (which tastes great) and cafeine free tea and coffee, veggie 'meat' which is fine, soya milk and so on.
ok i know the de-caf process for tea and coffee involves lots of nasty process, but its still better than the caffeine..
you can keep the de-caf coffee and tea for those odd occasions when you do fancy a cup.
Douglas
PS I have started the above practices so yes I AM practicing what I preach..
I have to say, so far, I've never felt better.
What I found rough though was the withdrawl symtoms from caffeine, they are actually severe with headaches or so on, but if you persevere for a week then they will pass.
Thanks Frank and everyone else who has recomended this plan, I have been at this for nearly a month now and I'm feeling a lot better!
Theres some really interesting posts on here...I think it's time for me to start understanding myself better.
What i'd like to do is shed myself from my ego, so I can gain more of a childlike view of the world. I know it may be tough since I can't really unlearn and unsee what i've seen in my past. It's just that all these assumptions about the world I live in, how I view myself, how I think others view me, judging other people thinking I know them by how they act, or look. It's rediculous and a waste of energy. I also want to detach myself from certain things as I have a problem with confrontation.
I work in a hotel and have the great pleasure of having to tell people to keep the noise down, kick people out, dealing with thieves and alcoholics. Now i'm not afraid of actually getting into a fight as my intuition or my feelings is i'd rather fight than have to tell someone to keep things down or throw someone out. The problem I have with the actual confrontation is with my body it reacts right away, say a bunch of drunks walk in to the hotel and right away I know i'm most likely going to have to confront them and when the time comes my heart just starts going ( adrenaline rush?) i duno and I feel shakey and to compound that I don't want to confront someone when i'm supposed to be someone of authority having that reaction. So this is a big thing i'd like to understand more, as i'm not afraid but my body reacts and that holds me back. It doesnt make sense to me why my body would react, as i'm not afraid of death, not afraid of a fight,...so really whats the problem?....
Sometimes I wonder if i'm feeling something from other people, cause if someone is mad at me or i'm having an argument it feels like i'm being stabbed right in the center of my chest. Another strange thing I noticed when my boss asks me for a favor, say to work a certain day for him, before he finishes the first word of the sentance I feel sick, i can't describe it other than maybe i'm feeling ( what someone would feel if they wanted to ask you something but didnt want to be turned down )...I don't understand why I feel this way.
So to cut to the chase i'd like to learn how to shed off some of this baggage that i'd gained over the years so I can't live in a world without having to judge myself or others....and my question is what is the best way to go about this? I do meditate from time to time but i'm wondering if I should be concentrating on my thoughts and emotions or if theres some special techniques for this.
Another weird example below
1: A walk downtown to the store
2: A walk in the woods or on the beach with no people around
I feel all kinds of different things when i'm around people or if i'm going up town, but say i'm by myself it's almost the opposite, it's like when i'm around people i'm emotionally getting pulled around...i'm not at peace. If i'm out in the boondocks somewhere i feel more childlike, maybe this is because I have engrained in my mind a self image...i don't really know.