I've had a realization

[knucklebrain1970]

Would you agree that when we are born, we are pure?
If yes, then what you are saying is in essence, this is the true self, correct?
If that is also true then we can say that everything else that is manifested inside ourselves are identities (ego), judgments, that we create, based upon experiences and the past.

So what this says is that everything we have manifested in our mind, has essentially become an identity or mind that separates is from our true self, hence, the suffering is self-created.

Does this give anyone else chills up and down their spine?


Kevin

[alexd]

Yes the suffering is being self-created. But we also have the power to liberate ourselves from suffering.


Alex

[CaCoDeMoN]

Would you agree that when we are born, we are pure?

I do not agree at all. As far as I remember I was always evil, with a desire to cause unnecessary suffering to others. Maybe this was caused by some problems in past lifes? Only thing that I can say for sure is that I am much better person now that 5 years ago.

[Frank]

Hi:

The concept of suffering is related to the common belief construct of victim/perpetrator. This is a construct that virtually everyone on the planet subscribes to. As such, virtually everyone's thinking revolves around this one construct. Quite amazing, really, when you think about it. Even people who would consider themselves to be "enlightened" still subscribe to this construct, which says a lot to me about their so-called enlightenment. But there you go.

The belief in the construct is kept alive by the profound belief in the notion that reality is something that a person is subjected to, as opposed to something they create. Our science of Physics will make a discovery in about 20 years time that will blast a big hole in that belief. They will discover that all material things are actually made from the same base material. This will create a whole new science that is formed to investigate the phenomena of the non-physical, or subjective areas of consciousness.

This will lead scientists to conclude the profound truth that we create our physical reality. From then on, people who still believe in the old constructs will become a laughing stock. Just as people are today who still think the world is flat.

The crux of the "consciousness shift" that everyone is on about revolves around precisely that discovery. It can be loosely translated as "out with the old paradigm and in with the new". Unfortunately, the religious bods can't bring themselves out of the Dark Ages enough to believe that something totally new can come about, without the old being completely destroyed first, lol.

Yours,
Frank

[knucklebrain1970]

What about 2012 though Frank?

Kevin

[Frank]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha...

Nice sense of humour you've got there!

Yours,
Frank

[jilola]

I'm not sure how  Frank meant his  reply to be interpreted but I suspect his saying "I'm as dead now as I'll ever be" is a good paraphrasing.
You were as a new born everything you are now, have ever been and will ever be.
For a given perception of you, that is.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Leannain]

good and evil is just a matter or perspective.

[knucklebrain1970]

Yeah it's wonderful ha? To have to fix 33 years of mind rape.

[BoscosFriend]

i do not think there is a true self. what we believe to be "I" is only ego. if attachment to ego is destroyed there would be no more I and no more suffering. we only suffer because we falsely identify with self(ego). the ego experiences good and bad, the ego experiences the world. we suffer because we are attached to the ego. but all suffering and happiness is an illusion.i do not believe we are pure at birth either.  we are born as a result of ignorance.

[markulous]

I think we have a fresh start when we are born and have an opportunity to balance our karma or let it continue to grow.  We might have bad thoughts or attachments from past lives.  Plus if their is any hostility when we are in the womb or an infant that effects us tremendously as well.

But if we have evil thoughts or think we are evil it doesn't matter what we did before(in a sense) we can fix it now.

[absinthian]

Being good or evil may very well be a part of your Live Lessons in this life. I believe that one should try to feel just as much compassion for the criminal as for your loved ones, because you me be the criminal in your next or former live. There's a difference between trying and doing though, meaning that we are not perfect. So I don't agree that we are our true self when we are a child, I do believe that a child is very close to his true self because children do not judge. That begins when we are about 12, or so.

[greatoutdoors]

A philosophical point: what if there is a balance of suffering and good in the universe? What if, for everything good that happens, something bad also happens to maintain that balance? It's not a cosmic learning experience or God's justice/judgment or whatever, but rather just a balancing out of natural forces in keeping with the laws of physics. The one I'm thinking of in particular is the Equal and Opposite rule. To paraphrase: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Just an interesting thought.

[knucklebrain1970]

Well why can't it be as simple as.

Die, meet Jesus, say hi to God, then just chill, play guitar, meet women, and live like fidy cent ha?




Kevin

[Selski]

Well why can't it be as simple as.

Die, meet Jesus, say hi to God, then just chill, play guitar, meet women, and live like fidy cent ha?




Kevin

Ha ha ha ha - your humour is superb...

Sarah

[jilola]

Knuckle:
It's not that we need to suffer for some noble goal or reward but very often we for some inexplicable reason choose to create suffering for ourselves.
Like you said in your original post, most of our perceived suffering comes from trying to fit other people's views and expectations of what and who we should be.

And Frank is exactly correct in stating that almost everything, from everyday lives to religions and spiritual attitudes and philosophies, tend to revolve around the idea that suffering is necessary and that something or someone "out there"  requires it.

There's no need to justify feeling good, being happy, or conversely miserable and crappy. You should figure out who you are and then be that person to the best of your abilities. Anything added to that is excess baggage.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[knucklebrain1970]

Money is the root of all happieness


REPEAT AFTER ME

Money is the root of all happieness

REPEAT AFTER ME




Ok, now go get your white Nike's

[Nuvo22]

I have decided immediately that I like Frank.
Frank, may you accept my love!  And I think you should be a writer of many books. I know I'll be reading about you one day. (just a psychic hunch).

These discussions seem to be in the spirit of spiritual growth. I commend you knuckle for coming to the realization that we are born pure and complete. Babies brains are in a state of formation and certain aspects of personality are still suppressed- but what we should look at is the brain as being more of a radio that tunes into the mind. Materialists seem to believe that the brain is what creates the mind. I have found that to be contradictory to what the science shows.
So yes I do believe much of our sense of self is illusory and "manifested" when our parents and culture begins to imprint on us psychicly and through enforcing rule and language etc.

As for that fellow who said he's always been cruel and dark. Well maybe you didn't have the best upbringing. Environmental conditioning begins right after birth. People 500 years from now may look back on to the procedures of hospitals and how they treat new Born's as primitive and damaging to the psyche of a baby.

Anywho- thumbs up to you Knuckles and get the book "The power of now" by Eckhart Tolle. He's one of our Canadian authors and we do love him greatly!
Ciao bello

[knucklebrain1970]

I think 1/2 the problem spiritual people progress so slow is that they throw all their eggs in one basket. I've listened to Tolle or Toll. I respect the man. But just because his kundalini was awakened or whatever happened to him, enlightened, etc.... does not mean that his particular method worked for others.

If these people, Toll, ***, ***, etc want to sell material. Why not list on their websites the names and email address of people that actually experienced what he has through his teachings?

I'm not bashing the guy buy any means. I like him, his message is good and he makes sense. I like it. However what I'm saying is that people are always looking external for the "ANSWER" through different methodologies, and that is fine. However, I try not to throw all my eggs in one basket. I am into several different things. I know that all the answers I need are "INSIDE", however accessing them is the difficulty. Hence the constant research.

Nobody has the answers  buy "YOU"

You will not get "THERE" by adhering strictly to one "EXTERNAL" persons ideologies. You have the answers. I use whatever material I have or get involved in as ideas to progress. Perhaps a little from here, little from there. But ultimately I know that I have all the answers. It's just the process of removing all the layers of SH*T built up from negativity and bad societal programming to get back to the core or true self.

Kevin

[CaCoDeMoN]

i do not think there is a true self. what we believe to be "I" is only ego. if attachment to ego is destroyed there would be no more I and no more suffering. we only suffer because we falsely identify with self(ego). the ego experiences good and bad, the ego experiences the world. we suffer because we are attached to the ego. but all suffering and happiness is an illusion.i do not believe we are pure at birth either. we are born as a result of ignorance.

Destruction of ego is a self destruction. When you lose perspective, life loses meaning, and you just dissolve. Having an ego can be extremely enjoyable experience but  it requires a lot of hard work. This is why so many people choose to commit "spiritual suicide" and "merge with One/God", it's just easier. Whay you understand as an ignorance it the best point of view in the universe, and the souls of people whose goal is destruction of ego are self willingly eliminated, it's a kind of evolution.

[Nuvo22]

You're confused on something Cacodemon, but that's okay.
People who choose to dissolve ego are merely rising above environmental conditioning that had them always focusing on the past and future- two things that don't actually exist. In fact never will.
Ego isn't bad.  You are correct on that point. However most people have had ego for many life times and are just finally saying "Yeah I've had enough of that now. It's time to experience this life in a more pure state. A state of being awake".

When Knuckles had mentioned Mr. Tolle selling his ideas I sensed a bit of jealousy or contempt for the system. The sales and marketing of it all can be easy to get lost in. Try to remember that us spiritual folk, and teachers alike, just use the system. We don't invest ourselves into it becoming co-dependent with it. So no I don't believe Eckhart Tolle is selling his ideas, and he states many times that to base your ideas and growth on external factors only feeds the ego and helps to keep it alive because you're always creating who you "ought to be" based on external expectancies. It's all good though. Knuckles you're a smart guy, and you're facing a lot of new things. I don't believe either that we can put all of our eggs in one basket. But I do believe in the beauty and importance of people who devote themselves to teaching spiritual mastery and artistry. These people show us how to look within- and they do it with love, patience, understanding and grace.
It takes a lot of time and effort as well as literacy to be able to write and publish a book that becomes successful. I don't think many of us have experienced that kind of dedication to our art.
But some will.

[jilola]

The thing about "extermination of ego" or "dissolving of the self"  almost everyone gets twisted  is that it's not really a matter of actual desctruction and eradication but seening it as a continuous and integral part of a whole instead of a discretely separate entity returning or being dissolved back into something.

What has never left cannot return.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[knucklebrain1970]

However, loss of ego as well and being consumed by that as well is just a means to an end, ending in disgrace, perspective is lost in the spirit of the chase.

You guys might have misinterpreted what I said about Tolle. I don't have a problem with him making books, whatever. My problem is this. People often develop a false identity within themselves when looking up to perhaps an idolic figure such as Tolle. They can't begin to grasp the reality that Tolle has achieved. So in essence, it's easy to be sucked in and want to "BE" like Tolle or any other enlightened person, rather than use their teachings for "THEIR" own advantage.

That's what I'm saying. As yourselves this. How many people, just by using Tolle's material, or any other "ONE" set path or material have achieved enlightenment?

I'll bet I can count the number on one hand.

It's about the ideas that these people bring forth, to try to help others advance. It's not about trying to become someone else. It's about you, trying to get back "YOU"

Like I said, I take a little bit of information for various different areas and try to define commonalities between them all. A recurring idea or theme. I do commend Tolle. I'll be doing the same thing when I awaken fully or whatever you want to call it. I now realize that I already have this, it's inside of me, waiting. Once I am able to access it, I will share this info with others.

It is my goal to get as many people to wake up as possible. People aren't living life. I know what's going on. I'm 1/2 way there and I've only been at this stuff for about a year. However all my previous 33 years have been leading up to this point, always pondering this stuff, constantly.

Now I have a very good idea of how it all works. When I reach full enlightenment, it will be my lifes goal to help others, with my ideas.
This is how it works folks. But you have to have that need inside to have it and once you do, you wont be able to just go in a cave and live. You want to tell the world how it is and how it can be for them. I feel it, it's only a matter of time. I feel the feeling of how it would feel to speak to others about these things, if they are willing to listen. I am so passionate about this stuff, to the point where everything else in my life besides my loved ones is meaningless.

To end the suffering is the start of peace. That is my complete goal, that I will attain, in this lifetime and then help others with the process.

Kevin