Enlightenment and Attachment

[Nagual]

Personaly, I am quite "shy"/passive/quiet; I don't act much, but observe a lot.  I have quite a few (sadly too many) nasty/greedy thoughts going through my mind.  The thing is that, as I am passive, nothing happens most of the time.  It's really like there is a "mad monkey" talking in my head and I just observe it...  Sometimes I can catch it right before it's voiced.  Other times I can't.  But it has no real power in the end.  But, I am not eliminating the root of the problem; I am just preventing it to act.  So frustrating...  [B)]

[James S]

Lighthouse,
What a wonderful idea![^]
It makes so much sense when you think about it.

I can see now a definite correlation between the terms "intent" and "faith". In church I was always told that when you pray for something, have faith in God that you will recieve. In the study of magic, it is the intent that is the driving force behind a successful spell. In both cases you are focussing on the end result, and it is just as true for magic spells as it is for prayers that you are relying on the fact that the means of making your desire come true is in the hands of the spirits.

When you think about the kind of forces that may be involved in making something come about - even when it is our own spirit self that is the power behind our intent, what is involved is far beyond our physical abilities or understandings. Far better to just stand back and allow it to happen than to worry and try to help it along.

I have felt the effects on both sides of this. The hassles created by getting getting involved, and the wonderful feeling of just letting go and allowing things to happen.
I only wish I'd remember what it's like to follow the latter course a little more, and save myself a lot of worry![:I]

This is a great message that you've shared with us Kerri.
Thank you so much.[]

Kind regards,
James.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by James S



This is a great message that you've shared with us Kerri.
Thank you so much.[]

Kind regards,
James.

Thank you James,I didn't realize that by asking a question, I would be offering someone else some insight []  It makes sense a lot of about your Magic/Faith analogy too... I had never linked those 2 together but I believe you are right on target on that one.  

So now the question is, how do we detach from the "how to" of the outcome we desire on a more consistent basis?  I guess we need to be MINDFUL of our reactions and when we are reacting vs acting.

I'm reading the Tibetan book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche and he states it like this:

He describes the nature of the mind in 2 parts, the ordinary mind, sem which is described as
"That which possesses discriminating awareness, that which possesses a sense of duality - which grasps or rejects something external - that is mind.  Fundimentally it is something which can associate with an 'other' with any 'something' that is perceived different from the perceiver." Sem is the discursive, dualistic thinking mind, which can only function in relation to a projected and falsely perceived external point.  

Then there is a very nature of mind, its innermost essence, which is absolutely and always untouched by change or death...

In Tibetan we call it Rigpa, a primordial, pure, pristine awareness that is at once intelligent, cognizant, radiant and always awake.  It could be said to be the knowledge of knowledge itself...
At present it is hidden within our own mind, our sem, enveloped and obscured by the mental scurry of our thoughts and emotions.

The masters liken sem to a candle flame in an open doorway, vulnerable to all the winds of circumstance.  

I believe this is the dualistic nature we are discussing.  If we can find a way of being more centered and disallow our emotional whims to shake our foundation, we will be further along the road of detachment from emotional chaos.  We need to find our inner shelter, our Rigpa and cease to allow ourselves to be the candle in the open doorway.  Does that make sense?  But how do we acheive that?  Meditation?  Perhaps.

Kerri

[Moonburn33]

i think that detachment is a symptom of a stable self- not something you can do in and of itself.  

meditation seems to be a good way to achieve that- but one has to remember that ignoring evil doesn't destroy evil.  you have to be aware of it and put energy into your whole self when it happens, so that you could understand why you get upset or sad or anything else.  suppression of anger and whatnot through artificial "detachment" is unhealthy and will ultimately lead to a more subtle instability that will plague you for years.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by Moonburn33

 suppression of anger and whatnot through artificial "detachment" is unhealthy and will ultimately lead to a more subtle instability that will plague you for years.

I disagree.

I'm not talking supression here... I'm talking about detaching from outcome and knowing that the universe is good (God) and that we are all here to be loved.  To detach means to understand this concept and to respond with Love (by catching yourself before defending yourself which we do out of fear or perceiving our own illusion of weakness.)  

Your language of evil speaks to me of a person who lives in fear.  

What I'm consciously trying to do is live in Love, the opposite of fear.  We respond in fear because we feel we will be forsaken or no longer loved by God who is also expressed in every living creature in the Universe(and beyond.) This is always our ego's response, not the God/Love response.  When we can catch ourselves and respond out of the recognition that everyone wants, needs love at the very core of their being, we can then change our responses and detach from allowing the fear and negativity of others to influence our emotional stability.  

If a person feels they need to control the outcome of a situation (which we all do at some level) we are saying that we do not trust God or the Universe to work in accordance with our highest good.  The acceptance and integration of this philosophy is what is meant by detachment.  If God dwells within me and in you all we really want is to be happy and loved, (this is what God wants) then why would God act in any other way?  It is our ego that feels it needs to control things and this is the part of us that expresses fear.  It is the muffling of the ego that is the desired outcome and the expression of Love/God will be all that remains.

Kerri

[jilola]

Do not try to live IN love, aspire to live AS love.

Love isn't somethinng you can expect to gain by doing something and not doung something else. You can only be who you are to the best of your ability and to try to refine that as far as possibly according to your capabilities.

Attachment arises when one judges one's progess and state in relation to that of others and thus places an implicit relative value upon them.
You need to rememeber that you are not a relative but the absolute part of the totality of existence. The existence that is in various religions dubbed God, Allah, G-d, Buddha (though he isn't a god).

The trick, imho, to getting rid of attachments is to forget the outcome. If you do something or behave in a certain way in order to achive some, even beneficial, outcome creates the very attachment.

So the solution is to be good. Just that and not for any other end. Or actualy not be good as such but be yourself as well as you can without impeding others' being themselves. The goal is not important, it's the sincere attempt.

So when you find an attachent, ask what causes it? What is the goal that creates an expectation of a result?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[kiauma]

http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/776_1.cfm?ctsrc=channel

[aleshah]

Be careful what you say with help of your spirit, I will.
Sorry people I don't believe in anything at all.
I'm just a slave of love.
Just close your eyes remember your first pain.Recall it untill you don't believe in it anymore.Forget the world, forget the people, go In-sane!

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Kerri, I suggest reading The Power of Now like we talked about. Tell the hubby to hurry up with it! lol

Basicly what the book and I have to answer your question is what your minister told you. Do not think about the How, that is thinking about the future. Think about what you are doing now. Now is where action takes place. Strive to be ever conscious of what you are doing and what is going on now. If you are conscious as things start to happen then you have a better chance of noticing them and stepping back before you are overtaken by your emotions. This detachment can be obtained by striving to accept things as they are. Try not to react but observe. Do not judge but just accept things as they are. Do not think about things, just be the ever present observer. Of coarse this is not easy to do all the time, but when you notice you are not present then be present then.

[galacticsurfer]

Kerri,

I read also some Tibetan books on using lucid dreams to develop oneself and Rigpa is a very important concept there. This is like the lucid dreamer knowing he dreams but this works when we are awake too. the idea is that when you think of it our waking life is just as much a dream as our dreams are and if we always are "aware" we are "dreaming" we are in Rigpa.

At any rate I also stumbled over a good text which is sort of a basic buddhist manual(30 pages) on minfulness(The Power Of Mindfulness) from a buddhist institute. It is very easy to understand. I uploaded it to the e-books here. It is worth a read.

Here is the table of contents to give a taste of it:

Contents
•   Introduction
•   Four Sources of Power in Bare Attention
•   1. The Functions of "Tidying" and "Naming"
o   Tidying Up the Mental Household
o   Naming
•   2. The Non-coercive Procedure
o   Obstacles to Meditation
o   Three Countermeasures
•   3. Stopping and Slowing Down
o   Keeping Still
o   Spontaneity
o   Slowing Down
o   Subliminal Influences
•   4. Directness of Vision
o   The Force of Habit
o   Associative Thought
o   The Sense of Urgency
o   The Road to Insight
•   Notes
•   Further Reading

galactic

[Lighthouse]

Thank you everyone for your input.

Kerri

[wendi]

Fear is not the opposite of Love.  It is a necessary emotion.


Love is a space in which all other emotions can be experienced.
 --Robert Prinable

[Lighthouse]

Fallnangel77 & Galacticsurfer,

So, I picked up the book The Power of Now  (my husband apparently wasn't into it... only got to page 13.) And I also started reading that download (I read something like 3-6 books at a time)... Thank You I have only gotten about 40 pages into the Power of Now but Tolle states in it that if we can be completely present, paying attention to what we are doing at the moment instead of thinking about the past or future, we will experience more JOY...

It works!  For about the past 4 days or so, I've been consciously practicing Mindfulness periodically throughout the day as both you have suggested through your posts and suggested readings and I thank you both!  I'm experiencing much more JOY... it's like an internal happy song that keeps playing and playing, like I'm in Love with the world and experiencing MUCH more happiness... the closest feeling to BLISS that I have experienced in many many moons...

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!  I just want to kiss you both![:X][][:X]

Kerri

[WalkerInTheWoods]

You are most welcome. I had heard about the book and picked it up because I didn't see anything else of interest at the time. Now I wish I had got the book much sooner. It truly is a simple yet powerful message.

I need to download the Mindfulness book and check it out. Thank you for sharing it, galacticsurfer.

[galacticsurfer]

Kerri,

I am glad that you got the download and are experiencing what it feels like. Keep looking at that mindfulness text every couple of weeks again and you will see that stuff they are talking about that you did not understand or just skimmed the first time is really happening to you as it is a build up from just the superficial thought block out and being now to where you start cleaning out ever deeper stuff that is really old inside you. Anyway the more you do mindfulness the more the article makes sense in all its parts. Its a life long journey.

I find it personally really easy to mellow out and go into trance generally by using energy techniques and such. However as I  am trying to become lucid in dreams this personality trait of being really fuzzy and unclear makes it very difficult to do reality checks whether in daily life or in dreams so that Lucidity is a matter of pure feel and emotions(like being angry enough to notice I am just dreaming) if I do go lucid at all in a dream. Somehow I think I have to strike a balance between the feel good element of being mindful and present which creates the bliss and the concentration element which allows the bliss state in the first place. Essentially I tune out when I have concentrated enough to create bliss. But to remain here all the time is the trick to stay lucid in my dream or in real life.

I remember the explanation from coworkers as to how to deal with pressure when I worked a while as a cook for in a restaurant a long time ago and everything would get very hectic suddenly. The basic thrust was to "take it easy - but fast". In other words like a perfect sportler "in the zone" at peak speed and performance but never lose your cool in that situation. This is the real trick with awareness, doing it faster and easier all the time. Becoming awareness without getting tuned out of your environment. The lucidity in dreams is a good check for this. If it is not happening then I think that the mindfulness is not being done effectively. This of course probably will take a lot of effort on my part.

[galacticsurfer]

P.S. TO LAST MESSAGE

Without always writing down lots of dreams every night and working on lucidity I would soon lose general interest in mindfulness as  I always have to have a concrete goal to acheive more and the control over lucidity(even OBEs) leaves endless room upwards in mental control/awarenss in astral or dream realms. I used to meditate and stuff but generally there was no comparison against which this state could be measured so it bored me. Now that I write down lots of dreams every night and watch my awareness carefully in them I have an "objective" control to see how I am getting along in my mindfulness in the waking hours. Mindfulness is just a very intensive form of relaity checks which is essentially nonstop reality checking.

[Lighthouse]

Thanks Galactic...  

I'm just amazed at how quickly it has worked!!!  I feel like posting a new thread saying... "If you want Enlightenment quickly, just do this"  and refer to what you and Fallnangel have given me.  

I have 2 little ones (ages 3 & 4) and after an hour of them not going to sleep last night (fighting with each other) I lost it a little but now my challenge is to practice during those situations too.  It's amazing how kids are masters at pushing us to our limits... great lessons in that.  

Anyway, Thank you again...
and check your private messages.

Kerri

[halfphased]

Lighthouse,

My experience has been that the more you practice being aware / mindful / whatever term works best for you the better you become at it.  Meditation helps, because you are being your most aware.  On my "good" days, I find that if my mind does react a certain way, I am able to see it reacting, see the root cause of that reaction (ie. life experiences and allowed habits or ways of thinkings that allowed for the automated response), and then I am easily able to back off of it or just ride it out without getting caught up in it.

[Lighthouse]

Thanks Halfphased,

I'm getting better at it sometimes... I guess just the awareness that I can create good days just by being present.  It's a constant learning process.. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back.  I've found that I'm really happy with myself when I can stop and breathe... may seem trivial but it works for me.

Thank you.

Kerri

[halfphased]

I would hardly consider it trivial  For me, it is one of the best things I can do.  Stop and breath.  No reason to hold on to or create stress.  hehe, I know all to well about the 2 steps forward and the 3 back.  

Be Well

[weetabix]

I fear my post will not be helpful.  But I feel it necessary to share a part of me...  

Before, can I make jokes on your first post (it's irresistible) ?  A funny observation... Your question was like an "how-to" reach detachment, which you define as not thinking about the "how-to"...  You also ask how to resist attachment.  Two word with the same meaning making opposition.  To resist isn't being attached !?

quote:Originally posted by Nagual

Personaly, I am quite "shy"/passive/quiet; I don't act much, but observe a lot.  I have quite a few (sadly too many) nasty/greedy thoughts going through my mind.  The thing is that, as I am passive, nothing happens most of the time.

I very know what you meant.  And the "how-to" become more important because we want to free us of our passivity.  

According to where I'm right now (I mean, in my personal development)  I must balance my day-to-day life.  This is where I should put "control" [hopping it'll not be a too long process...[xx(]]  I don't know how to tell, but what if my acts aren't the reflect of what I believe ?  

Also, this "be centered" concept seem very important.  It's a big one in Aikido which I've started training.  It's like putting all your energie, all your concentration into the very now (the present moment).  Like the warrior on the battle field... Distraction is his death.  Do there is something more important ?  Past is done and future merge to attachment (I mean, trying to control it).  [I couldn't say more than Fallnangel on that "Power of now"...[]]

I'll continue with what M. Frank Hatem would say (lol, I really try to plug it ! []).  

[warning : this is not a real quotation... interpretation & traduction]
"Life is the creation of my past though which made all what I need to reach my unconscious goal.  How could I cry or doesn't love this creation ?  Problems occur because we need it.  So, the solution is ACCEPTATION."  => it's almost the same thing of detachment except that acceptation mean to thank.  His advise is to THANK before pray, 'cause if you do not accept your past (and present) you'll recreate it again (and again..)


And a last one for entertainment ! [)]
"Morpheus: I stand here before you now, truthfully unafraid. Why? Because I believe something you do not? No! I stand here without fear because I remember. I remember that I am here not because of the path that lies before me, but because of the path that lies behind me! I remember that for 100 years we have fought these machines. I remember that for 100 years they have sent their armies to destroy us. And after a century of war, I remember that which matters most. We are still here!" -MatrixReloaded => Hope you guys like these quotations !

-Weeta

[Lighthouse]

Recently, with everything I've been reading, I've been getting the message over and over again about how attachment is one of the major blocks to true happiness.  I even heard a talk in my church about how Gandhi used a method of detachment in his teachings and daily life which allowed him to remain at peace within himself.

Attachment is the need to have control over your circumstances, other people, their reactions, outcomes of events and the like.  Since this has been popping up so much, I know this is the next step I will take along my own personal development path.  

I have found that if I can step back from a situation and take a breath before allowing myself to get angry, I have a better chance of not responding in a form of fear and have a better chance of detaching from a situation(anger, frustration, the need to dominate a situation, etc are the indicators that I have reacted from a position of fear and are attached to the outcome) Also, if I pray or center myself before reacting, I have had a little success at turning a situation that would usually end up in an argument into an event that is in correspondence with my own desires.  If I take the fear response out of the equation and act from a place of peace and calm, I end up in fewer arguments.  

Also, in the sermon my minister gave, he talked about how we may want to walk from our living room to the kitchen, we set the intention and don't worry about how many steps, the course we take (there could be a chair in our way and we don't stress over getting around the chair, we just walk around it, almost without even thinking) We ultimately end up getting there because we have set the intention to get there.  We detach from the "HOW" of getting there, knowing we will get there because that was our intention.  He says it is the same with our daily lives.  If we intend on acheiving a goal, many of us stress over the "HOW to" of getting to the goal instead of allowing the universe to flow naturally and know that we will reach our goal because that was our initial intention.  Attachment to the HOW TO, therefore becomes the source of greif for us.  WE ultimately still acheive the goal, but with greater headache than we would if we would just allow the universe to move us in accordance with our higher good.  


The problem is, I do not always catch myself before the anger or need to control a situation strikes then of course, I regret things I might say or do and end up causing myself greif.  Does anyone have any suggestions on how to stay more centered and how to resist attachment.  I know this is a BIG one to tackle and DETACHMENT is a life long process.  I'm just curious about whether anyone else is working on this particular aspect of their personal development, menthods you may have tried to stay detached and results you have seen through the methods you have used.


Thanks for your input,
Kerri