The Astral Pulse

 :-o

I've heard something like this before... when I was in church.

I don't see it as being possible. I see our soul as being that part of us that makes us alive - it is our life force.

"Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul."

When you see a young child cross over, a child who could not possibly know what this means, you know it makes no sense.

An odd idea!  :?

Blessings,
James.

how do i become awakened?

None of us have 'souls'. 'We' are just a result of the physical processes in our body. As modern neuroscience and buddhism say, there is no 'self' except the story we concoct with our thoughts. There is no death because all that exists is the NOW, future and past don't exist, we don't experience the moment of death (being dead and all). There is no eternal life though, unless you mean that the NOW is infinitesimally small.

I don't like doing this, I don't like reading this kind of thing. I have just stated what I believe, with no justification. If I was to do the same but support the existence of the 'soul' or an 'afterlife', people would accept it much more readily.

Concepts like 'life essence', 'life force', 'souls', 'self' are religious ones to me. I really don't understand why people believe something like this with no justification.

QuoteThere are some people who do not have a soul, when they die their spirit becomes absorbed
into the collective consciousness like raindrops in a lake.
Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul.

Wait, when they die, these SOUL-less people's SPIRIT becomes absorbed?? Now we have spirits and souls??

I say we have 'spourls' that absorb the spirit of the soul and are conscious of the life essence and energy that permeates through the mind-universe. In fact, we are all one big 'Spourl'.

I also believe in 'Keet'. This is the essence of all feet. Our physical feet and their muscles and movement are just reflections of a higher foot dimension "Keenehtiks". This came to me in a dream once.

:wink:

Well, then who is it i am talking to all the time, if it isn't the souls or spirits of the departed - and I'm sorry they aren't all "awakened" (and truly what does that term mean??  It is used far too frequently without real thought!!)??  If this were true then mediums wouldn't hardly have anyone to chat to and bring information through from would they??  :P

I don't believe it for a minute, not from my experiences.

"None of us have 'souls'. 'We' are just a result of the physical processes in our body."

Ditto to Wizard!
I've spoken to too many departed souls to think that they don't exist.

A more well known medium - Allison Dubois - recently said something funny about this kind of belief, or lack of belief. She's spoken to souls that have crossed over, people who staunchly refused to believe in the afterlife. They're comments after dying were basically -  "oops!"

Still...
"I don't like doing this, I don't like reading this kind of thing. I have just stated what I believe, with no justification. If I was to do the same but support the existence of the 'soul' or an 'afterlife', people would accept it much more readily."  

I've no problem with that comment, in fact I readily agree with it. If you believed every theory or philosophy that came along, you'd end up stark raving mad! That's why I wholeheartedly advocate not just sitting back and reading about what other people think, but getting out there and experiencing it for yourself. The onus is on each of us to prove to ourselves what is or isn't real.

I'd be willing to simplify it a bit more than that. After a person's body dies, their consciousness, the "who they are" still exists. Part of a whole? Yes, but still with the thoughts, memories and personalities of the individual.

That's something you don't hear spoken of much - personalities. Spirits I speak to are every bit as individual as we are. They have their own personalities, their own ways of reacting, of talking, of describing things, their own likes and dislikes.

I wonder how much of all the debates about such concepts comes down to the fact that we experience life here in a physical form? We're not used to seeing life / consciousness / sentience exist in the form of pure energy.

Blessings,
James.
P.S. nice topic Lola.  :)

Being an anthiest dosnt sound fun.  We have souls, as in all of us.  I dont think of a soul as an object.  I dont think its somthing you can just open up your chest and take out.  I think your soul has no time.  It transcends time.  I beleive its what make you you.  Its part of your personality, its your essence, you being, your conciousness.  You body is just the physical interpreter for your soul.  When you die, your body shuts down, quits working etc.  Your soul stops the connection between it and the physical world.  Dunno though.  Ive never died that I know of, so its really hard to say exactly what happens.  I have had dreams where i was dead, and it was a wonderful feeling.  A feeling of utter happiness and freedom.  Sort of a constant floating in water feeling.  So thats why i beleive we have a soul, cause I can feel it.

You could very well be right ther Lola. The mechanics of it all are still mostly unknown to us.

The perspective I come from, in actually interacting with spirits, is that I don't see or feel anything of a collective. I do actually believe that is our ultimate form of existance - oneness with the "universal" mind, but I don't get any sense this when speaking with spirits. They seem to me to be just like anyone else in this world that I speak to.

Admittedly, I do try to keep things simple when practicing mediumship. To complicate matters just brings preconceptions into the mix, which can really work against you.

Blessings,
James.

Hey all,

Great question Runlola, but one of the hardest there is to answer!  But this is the way that I have interpreted this puzzle in my life (so far!):

>I have a body.

>I have a spirit that gives life to that body.  It is the 'prime mover' the 'animation principle' of my physical self and permeates every molecule and cell of my physical being.

>I have a Soul that is co-joined with my spirit and, with this, my body.  I do not know how this actually works, but I strongly suspect it is somehow connected through our breath.  I have reason to know that my Soul is Light, and so I can imagine that my Spirit is made up of 'particles' of that Light.  My Soul is the 'Prime Mover' of my spirit. This is also my Mind, but not all of my MIND.  (I definately think that animals have a Soul, and its connection works the same as ours.  How they live here in the physical is not indicative of whether or not they have a Soul.)    

>When my body ceases to function in the way necessary to support my vital organs, the spirit of my body has ceased to function as well.  When I cease to breathe, my Soul/Mind and this body are separated forever.  My Soul/Mind, no longer connected to my bodily influences, will become clear in thought and have access to knowledge that I could not always access while attached to the physical world.  I think that OBE and AP are momentary incidents of the Soul moving away from the body, but until the body ceases to function, it will always return.

>My Soul/Mind is eternal, however, and will continue to exist always.  In what form, I cannot be sure, but that it will continue to exist I feel reasonably sure.

This is the way I understand myself as as individual.  As to the world in which I live:

>The entire physical world has spirit within it, but not necessarily "Soul".   "Nature" or "Planet Earth" has a spirit, but not a Soul.  When a part of nature dies, its spirit dies as well.  

>What we think of as 'collective consciousness' is the same as the Spirit of nature or the Spirit of the physical body.  It is the prime mover of the collective.  When the collective changes (and it does so continuously) the Spirit (Consciousness) of the collective changes as well.  But this is rather mechanical, going with the flow of change.

>There is, to me, a 'Collective Over-Soul' that also works in the same way as the Soul does with the Spirit and the Body.  This Collective Soul is the Prime Mover/Mind of the Collective Consciousness, but because this is so much vaster than the individual person it is really hard to fathom the details.  

>I think of enlightenment, or 'awakening' as the realization that you have a Soul, and are much more than just your physical body.  The more you learn about your true nature, the more 'awake' you become.  The physical world changes for you; things that were once important may become trivial or unnecessary.  You being to awake on many levels.  You want different things; things that urge you toward more enlightenment.

>I do think that all humans have Soul, for all humans have Mind.  The less 'enlightened' or 'awake' a person is however, the less that person will realize or be able to attune to their Soul.  Religion has done more to sever the connection between Spirit and Soul, by placing religious dogma between them. God becomes the animating Spirit of each individual, which is a premise that begs too many questions that can only be answered irrationally, and the true Prime Mover of the Collective Over-Soul is lost in oblivion.

>What is the Prime Mover of the Collective Over-Soul?  I am sorry to say that I do not know.  This is a vast universe, which is something that most people do not live their lives being aware of, so whatever the Prime Mover of the Collective Soul or Universal Soul is, I know that it is not the God of any dogmatic system we have on Earth, which sets itself up more as the Collective Consciousness if anything more than just man made tyranny. And besides, if we are doing well to perceive our own Soul, then what makes any of us think that we can even begin to perceive God/Universal Prime Mover?  (I think we can be a pretty arrogant species if we think so!)

Did I ramble?  :?  Well, that is what I think anyway...of course, there are a lot of other things that play into this big question, but this is at the heart of it all for me.

Peace, :D
Beth

You choose your way of life, you shouldn't be choosing what you think reality is. Atheism is not a choice, it's the world as it is - to me. Fun? How we feel about something is down to us.

Let me tell you my experiences then:

When I fully break through the mental chatter and nonsense, still the mind, I find no 'self', no 'personality', certainly no 'soul', there is just nothingness or emptiness. Just like science says I would find. This is what I believe enlightenment is. My thought-created self doesn't exist and neither does anything else that is 'me'. The greatest liberation comes from realizing the pure material 'nothingness' that you are. The path to that is simply being here in the now, without illusion.

So, in a way, it is both my reasoning AND my experience that there is no such thing as a soul, or a spirit.

PassiveFist, so if nothing exists and there is no 'you', then how do you perceive that?

Something has to be there to sense the void.

Dear Fist,

When I hear of anyone's experiences in meditation, there is usually that 'no-place space' in varying degrees for us all.  With time and patience, this is also the 'no-place space' that functions as a spring board into other spaces that cannot be reached from the normal everyday mundane world.  These 'other spaces' vary a great deal and will usually reflect to some extent what the person either expects, believes or is willing to expect or believe.  Your reponse is no different:  this no-place space can remain the same always if that is what you expect to find.  And as you said it is:

QuoteJust like science says I would find.

You have found what you expected to find.

I found a great deal more when I very patiently did my time in the 'no-place space'.  That was years ago now.  I can still find that no-place space, but it rarely ever stops there; a door has been opened to me that may go unattended for periods of time, but it will always remain open.

But, this is my experience....and no one tells me what to expect or what to believe.  I trust my own experience and I trust what I have come to know.  But, like I said, it may ultimately be different for us all.  

Peace,
Beth

Actually, (and this is totally true) I found it the other way around. I experienced it first, then after reading a textbook on consciousness (Susan Blackmore), I started to realize that 'science' points to the same thing. (Apart from a general no religious 'self' idea, which was previously clear with minimal understanding of science.)

QuotePassiveFist, so if nothing exists and there is no 'you', then how do you perceive that?

Didn't mean nothing exists. Your mind's sense of self is an illusion. Hard to describe obviously. There seems to only be what we refer to as 'awareness' - whatever that is. Not someone aware of something, just awareness. As in: not a thing, but an action.

Another thing though, is that I could break down any other experiences when people were talking to themselves :cough: I mean, spirits. Experience is not good enough on its own.

...even though it would be great to know that this 'no-place-space' or 'nothingness' that I have found is 'only the beginning', and that I would go on to discover what all of you have been talking about  :wink:

(I've edited this post so many times  :D I've lost count, I have to stop )

All I know is i'd rather go through life thinking that theres somthing there when I die rather than knowing that there is nothing.  In my short life on earth so far, I have learned that sometimes its better not to know, and better to be naive or ignorant to some truths.  But I do still beleive that there is a heaven and a hell, not because I want to, but because I know there is somthing better out there.

Hey Fist,

You wrote:

Quote...even though it would be great to know that this 'no-place-space' or 'nothingness' that I have found is 'only the beginning', and that I would go on to discover what all of you have been talking about

You may never find anything more than nothingness, but then again, one day you may fall through a trap door hidden in the nothingness and be propelled into a whole new dimension of thought and experience.  There is such a highly personal aspect to all of this, that only the sounds, sensory feelings and other subjectively empirical things can be called 'common'.  Sure, there are a great many similiarites of experience when we all 'compare notes', but no one should try very hard to find the 'same meadow with horses grazing' as someone else has seen.  One may well find a meadow, but what is in that meadow may be vastly different from horses, and be a flock of birds for example.  Or, that same one could have a similiar experience by finding oneself in a 'Grand Canyon' like place, or even something really quite bizarre perhaps like a canteena from Star Wars!  

The brain is an amazing tool, but I firmly believe that our brain cannot adequately process all that we encounter in the Astral.  Or better yet, we lack the ability to totally understand what our Minds are trying to process through to us, so we take 'short-cuts' and make 'edits' in order to adjust the memories into something that we can understand or accept.

Perhaps you have reached the 'ultimate' and there is nothing outside of all the experiences that we share here, but if that is the case, then you have already missed out on a great deal of wonderful adventure!!  I will, however, stay my own position, and say that for me, the adventures I have experienced, and the knowledge that I have gleaned has come from the "other side of the nothingness."

Peace, :D
Beth

QuoteThe earth's soul is the collective consciousness.
People who have no soul become part of the earth's soul.
A soul is not something that is given, it is something created by awakening

This is not logical:  

"People who have no soul become part of the earth's soul."

If they have no soul, wouldn't they already be a part of the earth's soul? If not, what were they originally if not soul?

"A soul is not something that is given, it is something created by awakening."

What is Soul created out of?  And once it is awakened where does it go?  "Who" possesses it?  

:?  The problem with this is not in the first premise, but the second and the third.  

We can start with the first premise:
"The earth's soul is the collective consciousness."  

And then say, without awakening to the knowledge that you have an individual soul, that you could lose your individuality or lose your soul by being absorbed by the collective consciousness of the earth.  

I will grant that many people do not think for themselves, or even use their reasoning abilities in the simpliest of ways, let alone access any metacognition that may be available to them.   These people can be likened to 'sheep' that follow a 'shepherd'; blindly following and using their own resources to just eat, sleep and procreate.  You could easily say that these people have been absorbed by the collective (living on auto-pilot), but this does not mean that they do not have a Soul.  It only means that they have yet to awaken to that Soul.

If, however, one of these people wanders away from the 'shepherd' or has an experience that conflicts with all that they have grown accustomed to, then that process of awakening could begin.  This does not mean that he/she is being 'given a soul' nor does it mean that it is 'created' in that moment of 'awakening'.  To me, the act of 'awakening' is describing a process, which at most can be acknowledged as an 'impersonal facilitator', but certainly not as a 'creator' ...which is something else all together.  

No, I must disagree with the original post.  We all have Souls.  What we consciously do toward living, or ignoring, the knowledge of having a Soul is up to each individual:  

Living with Soul=living with the ongoing process of awakening.  

Ignoring the Soul=living through absorption into the Collective (sniff....sniff...I smell BORG here.... :lol: )


Peace,
Beth

What I dont get is how sombody creates a soul.  Humans, I dont think, are powerful enough to create a soul simply by awakening.  There has to be somthing already there before you awaken.  And how can you awaken if you have no soul?  Isnt the soul a part of the astral projection, psi, medium, becoming higher being, etc.?  I dont study the mechanics behind all this like you guys do, so I may be missing out on some things.

Hey all,

As with any complex problem, and even more so with metaphysical problems, a definition of terms is alway essential to ensure that everyone is speaking the same language and therefore 'reading from the same page'.  

Here we have the problem of not having an agreement of certain definitions, most especially for 'Soul' itself.  

What, for instance, is the difference between Soul and Essence?  

If we say that Soul is something that is "made" upon awakening to a higher consciousness, then a definition of "Essence" is crucial to understanding the entire process.  

If we say that 'their essence' is absorbed by the collective, then who or what defines the term "they?"  

And, if only from awakening out of the collective can one obtain a soul, then once again, how do we define the 'collective'?  

If we say that the 'collective' is a 'collection' of 'essences', then we are back to our original question:  What is Essence??   And who are THEY?

When I proposed that 'everyone does' have a soul, I allowed for the fact that some people would rather not do the work necessary to recognize their Soul, for to do so is a very demanding path and requires much that staying unaware does not.  These 'lazy souls' so to speak, would therefore 'remain unconcious of the option to live their lives through Soul' and remain content, albeit unaware, absorbed within the Collective.

Now, what happens to a 'lazy soul' versus an 'aware Soul' after it leaves the body, is pretty much an on-going topic of conversation.

Thinkers can define terms in any way that they want, but if they want to communicate effectively with others, it is necessary to define the terms that are at the foundation of the premises being discussed.  If even one premise is faulty, then the conversation is led into an illogical conundrum, because people will just be talking past one another.  
So, to keep this one going, what is the difference between 'essence' and 'soul'?


Peace, :D
Beth

Ok, I think I'm starting to see this person's perspective.
They're trying to keep away from admitting the possibility of God. Not necessarily the christian or muslim God, but the concept of an all encompassing universal consciousness, a oneness that existed before the conception of the material universe.

This perspective (I think) puts full power of creativity back on us, in that the physical begets the spiritual. As opposed to the more common spiritualist perspective that the Spirit always existed, and the physical was created as an experiential vehicle for Spirit.

As to "awakened soul", I agree with your perspective Lola (if I've read what you've put correctly). That its not non-existent in some people, but rather its not recognised or accepted as an integral part of us.

This does sound like a belief system that's possibly come about from a confusion of differing religious input.

Blessings,
James.

Runlola,

Perhaps your friend needs to write all of this out starting from the beginning as he/she understands it and try to work through it logically.   There are too many ways in which these terms can be interpreted and unfortunately, it is not a strong enough argument to withstand serious criticism.  For instance, if:

QuoteEssence=the recorded consciousness of a physical being

then, what does it mean to be a physical "being"?  And, what do you mean by "conciousness", both collective and individual?

Further, if:

QuoteSoul=evolving individual consciousness

we are stuck again:  without a clear definition of consciousness, both collective and otherwise, what does it mean for a 'conciousness to evolve'? Moreover, what is it "evolving" from and what has it to evolve into?  

Now, if:

QuoteAwakening is not done in the collective, it is done in the physical. (for the sake of this argument)

then you have just put that same original 'essence' that evolved out of its former place of 'physical being', right back into the 'physical' from which it came to be awakened.  

All of these answers to my questions are not making a tighter case for his/her position, it just keeps getting mired in its own lack of definition.  To make the blanket statement that 'not everyone has a soul' based upon this alone, is total nonsense.  Sorry 'bout that.

Peace,
Beth

p.s. The position that I stated earlier may not be right either, but in no way does it include "god".  Additionally, there is a big difference in a "soul that is not awake" and "not having a soul at all."

--b

I just dont understand, if you awaken/become aware of higher self, you get a soul.  So if you dont become aware you dont get a soul.  Kinda sounds like metaphysical darwinism 'survival of the most aware.'  Also, when you get a soul what does that mean?  Does the soul get you things that people without one does not?

runlola,
If what you are theorizing is true, how many questions must you ask to get to the center of the tootsie roll tootsie pop? ...errr to get a soul? Approximately when would you be granted this individualism from the collective soul that most people get absorbed into?

we all share the same soul!

I feel we are all of the one (God/Divine energy/the all encompassing)soul, and when we realize even so much as a glimmer of this we have the notion that we are more than just physical and the emotional/mind, the separate I is just a way of recognizing different aspects of the one universal energy.
Therefore the notion of soul. the everlasting spark of  energy that starts everything into perpetual motion
In the same way that science believes that energy is never lost, it just changes form, our energy is always there, just sometimes without the form of I.(ego self)
We are different facets of God experiencing itself. hence we all share the same soul.

In the way that a drop of water taken out of the ocean is a drop individually, but when returned, still part of the ocean regardless.

Runlola,

i certainly do believe in the afterlife as some people would call it, I also believe in the before life,- energy has no end, it just changes form.
This is one thing that meta physicians and scientists probably both agree on!(yet a lot of scientists are yet to fathom anything they cannot perceive with their own eyes)
Other worlds we experience are just different interpretations, ways of experiencing that energy.
As different wavelengths of energy on this physical plane can be broken down into varying levels on the spectrum, i.e light, matter, gravity etc.
When energy vibration increases beyond that spectrum, beyond light there are more 'realities' to experience.

Hence astral travel is the separation of a higher vibrational energy from a lower grounding energy (matter) to be able to perceive reality at a  different vibrational level. The astral level sits higher in the vibrational spectrum.
Thought itself is the movement of energy, and in the astral plane there aren't the ordinary laws pertaining to physical matter energy to hamper us. The astral plane is created and formed through our own, and others thoughts and feelings.
If we learn to dissolve our own ego, and see ourselves not as a separate I, But as part of a whole (collective consciousness) we can move beyond the astral realm.

One a side note, one very interesting character Nikolas Tesla had information regarding moving outside of the spectrum through the use of vibrational energy. Not sure if you know of his experiments?

As a medium I interact with many spirit people each day, and I certainly dont believe they all reached some kind awakening before they crossed over.

I dont buy it, my conclusion, we all have souls.

Glad I found this thread. It goes hand in hand with the thread I started about talking to God.

For those who might not believe in life after death, let me relay this story.

I had a 19 year old daughter who was killed in a car accident over 4 years ago. At the time, her son, who was 2, was living with us. The day following the accident, my wife, my youngest daughter and myself witnessed the most amazing thing. My deceased daughter manifested her spirit into her son. When this event took place, the face of my grandson morphed from a two year old into the face of my daughter. She looked deep into our eyes with love and compassion as to let us know that her spirit lives on and she was okay. It was an amazing thing to behold. We all witnessed this event during different times but each time it occurred we would run to the others with excitement after seeing her!

It was after my daughter's death that my life took a turn and I began searching for answers that I couldn't find in church. I really feel that God has opened my eyes to the truth I've been searching for.

"Seek, and ye shall find."

I think all I can really say to that post jub jub is WOW! What an experience!!!

That experience rings so true with me for a few reasons.
Having met Alison Dubois and listened to her speak about deceased loved ones being with us, and having had personal experience in this area by speaking to my deceased brother, I know without doubt that loved ones do come back to us to give us comfort and love. We do see/speak to/feel them as the individuals they were here on earth.

I'm also familiar with the "morphing face" thing. One of my closest friends is a medium who frequently channels spirits. I've seen her facial features change to that of the spirit she channels. My wife has also witnessed my friend doing this and has commented on the facial changes. My wife being the practical, logical, analytical down to earth one of the two of us, leaves me with no doubt that what I was seeing is what was really happening.
Again, proof of individuality that can only happen if spirits retain their identities - their souls.

This does tie in very well with your topic jub jub.

:)
James.

Since I frequently astral project while I am wide awake, I believe there is something more to this life than our physical bodies.  After beginning to have OBE's at the beginning of this year, I began being able to communicate with my departed family members.  One such person is my soul-mate whom I have never met during this current physical lifetime.  However, I am told that we have shared many past lives together.  Although, I cannot remember my past lives with him right now, I am 100% positive that he is with me every day.  Ever since I started having OBE's, he has been with me on a daily basis.  I can feel him physically.  I feel a cool vapor like substance on my skin when he is near, and I have felt the magnetism of his energy pulling on my body.  I can feel him touch my hands, etc.  I have smelled fragrances that he has wanted me to smell.  I have seen him in his human form and also as flashes of light energy and a small spark type light energy (almost like a star in the sky type image).  I have heard him breathe in my ear, and I have heard him speak out-load in a very high pitched voice, which I later found out he sounds that way because of being in a higher dimension and from vibrating at a faster rate.  I am able to communicate with him through written communication by attaching a string to a Sharpie type marker pen.  After gently lifting it so that it's not too heavy on the paper, I can see the pen being grabbed ahold of as he writes. I can also feel his energy push on an ink pen as I hold it.  I have had countless other experiences with him and my other family members.  After all of these experiences, there's no doubt in my mind that flesh and bones isn't all there is to our existence.

This is an interesting thread but your definitions make me frown. I actually think it would be interesting if everybody explains what he believes a "Soul" is. I'm trying to find out what you guys mean when you say "Soul" but I can't figure it out.

So you think Soul = consciousness = energy ?!

I personally thought Soul refers to a indestructible,unalterable kind of thing (but as I said I haven't really made up me mind) certainly consciousness doesn't fit these criterion's as we all know it is fairly unstable and can disappear almost completely at night. So I would like to join these discussion but please could we first define these difficult words? Do the other agree with Lolas definitions? I would guess not.

I find also the word enlighted very intriguing! Certainly BUddha had something very different in mind when he used it compared to Lola. Certainly not a evolution of consciousness! So kind of bewildering for me to read about "Enlightment" ( That I know about thruogh me studies of Buddhism) and see that it is used completly in an other sense here :!:


BTW Fist: I find your post very interesting but... I think The Dalai Lama would turn over in his grave when he heard would you said :)  Certainly the Buddhist believes that there is no indestructible,unalterable Soul. But most Buddhist certainly do NOT believe that the consciousness dies after death or is generated by the brain. They do not believe that there is only matter. Buddha himself meets various Spirits all the time and talks about quite a few planes beside the physical one!

I posted this in another thread. See if you think this makes any sense...

QuoteThough all spirits are all parts of the same whole, part of the same Source, each spirit, each piece of the whole, has its own individual sentience. Each piece is consciously self-aware. This allows each spirit to view existence from its own individual perspective. Over the course of lifetimes, the individual perspectives give rise to individual personalities and characteristics - the soul - the means by which a spirit percieves its experiences.

The way I equate it is "spirit" is the (indestructable) energy body, "soul" is the consciousness or sentience of a spirit.

:)
James.

Quote from: James SI posted this in another thread. See if you think this makes any sense...

QuoteThough all spirits are all parts of the same whole, part of the same Source, each spirit, each piece of the whole, has its own individual sentience. Each piece is consciously self-aware. This allows each spirit to view existence from its own individual perspective. Over the course of lifetimes, the individual perspectives give rise to individual personalities and characteristics - the soul - the means by which a spirit percieves its experiences.

The way I equate it is "spirit" is the (indestructable) energy body, "soul" is the consciousness or sentience of a spirit.

:)
James.

Thanks for the reply James.
So you say that the Soul is "individual personalities and characteristics" That doesn't make to much sense to me to be honest. I mean sure you can define Soul that way but it is evident that Personality and characteristics may change over time. So you would say that a Soul changes over time and that it (thus) may be destroyed?

Spirit as a "energy body-Lifeform kind of thing" I could go with that, but why are you sure it is indestructable? Couldn't it be that the energy Body is generated by our Consciousness when we need it? Very much like Robert Bruce talks about it

Tom

I think that's a good idea Lola. I so feel the same as you on this!

I explain what I see of spirit and soul from the point of view of spending time with the ghosts of deceased people and other spirits. I don't like to philosophise, theorise or extrapolate beyond what I learn from them, because I've found doing so can contaminate the experience with preconceptions / misconceptions. As a medium, I deal only with the evidence that is brought to me by spirit, as I can't afford to do otherwise.

James.

Never mind

Passivefist wrote that Buddhism teaches that there is no self. That is incorrect. Buddhism teaches "not-self" not "No-self". The Buddha taught that the self is that which is unborn, unmade, unconditioned, and therefore not subject to decay. The True self is what he taught us to look for. What he said about "not-self" was that the self is not to be found in the physical world or any of the aggregates that make up our personality.

right, the Buddha taught not-self, which is more of a strategy for letting go of sufferings causes. but he never taught that there was a true self. when he was asked straight out weather there was a self or not he remained silent. because both views " i have a self" or "i have no self" require clinging. the Buddha taught the middle way. to avoid extremes. the extreme of eternalism and the extreme of nihilism

But the Buddha did talk about your Buddha nature, or universal mind.

yes, that very nature is within every being. but it is not self. see the strategy.

Depends on your definition of the word "self". Remeber all we are dealing with here are words, its the meaning that is important. Because the Buddha didnt even say any of these words, he was speaking another language.

Quote from: MindFreakDepends on your definition of the word "self". Remeber all we are dealing with here are words, its the meaning that is important. Because the Buddha didnt even say any of these words, he was speaking another language.

Whats your point? Should we disregard the whole English translation of the Pali Canon then?  I believe when the Buddha spoke of self he meant it as a permanent essence. The Buddha said all things are impermanent and not self. But I dont speak Pali, so maybe I'm wrong. What I mean by not self strategy is that, yes we all have that true nature, but to realize it requires letting go of all attachment. If you hold on to the thought "I have a self" you are clinging. To hold on to the thought "I have no self" you are clinging. Its not about weather you have a self or not, Its the clinging that needs to be let go of.

I just meant that we shouldnt cling to the words themselves, we should look at the meaning they point at. The Buddha said that all things are impermanent and not self and subject to change, death and decay. But he was talking about things in samsara. He also said that there is a dimension, or plane of existence beyond samsara.

Exploration to date has shown that everyone shares the exact same consciousness. Different life experiences create different personalities and belief systems (i.e. we are the sum of every experience to date) – and so the concept of an individual is born.  I haven't seen any evidence of us 'having' a soul. I would say that we are a soul.
The problems with such discussions is that even though words have a universal meaning (supposedly) we still each attach different means to such words based upon our past experiences. Also talk of energies and such is ambiguous as we have no understanding of what such energies might be.

I don't see why a dead person must be any more a hologram than a person existing in the physical (which is just another locale on consciousnesses spectrum).

Each of us being the exact same consciousness does bear a similarity with the universal consciousness concepts, although I think their scales are different.

Something I wrote on a similar topic recently on another forum:

Quote
I reason that if there is oblivion on death (yes I have projected since childhood, and do have some convincing evidence we are more than the physical body - I just can't totally discount all potential theories which have some weight - well until I truly do die :)) and we are the product of a physical brain/genetic pattern, we will live again an infinite number of times. In infinity infinite possibility must be carried out (even within certain strict rules) so the conditions to produce 'you' will be reproduced an infinite number of times. With oblivion there will be no passage of time, so even if vast amounts of time pass between each recreation, it will literally be instant to 'you'. Another theory I've reasoned is that consciousness is the same in each of us. That is every human who exists (and potentially every aware life form) shares the same basis of consciousness, individuality arises from different life experiences. So in effect every person on this planet is 'you' but with differing life experiences. What this means is that if death is oblivion, you will exist in the next new born child. Not as 'you' but as a new point of consciousness which is exactly the same as your core. So either way, if there is life after death or not, we will be back ;)

Quote from: MindFreakI just meant that we shouldnt cling to the words themselves, we should look at the meaning they point at. The Buddha said that all things are impermanent and not self and subject to change, death and decay. But he was talking about things in samsara. He also said that there is a dimension, or plane of existence beyond samsara.

agreed, and its achieved through non attachment.

Yes, but there are more methods as well

NO ONE HAS A SOUL....your Soul "has" you, the physical body is only a tool/vehicle that the soul uses to EXPERIENCE as many aspects of life as possible...and "if" you don't KNOW it NOW you will pretty soon after that "dying" moment.

(http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/3994/freedomkl4aj.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Nice crop circle....hey

Quote
NO ONE HAS A SOUL....your Soul "has" you,

I like that..  :smile:

Hi,
All incarnated beings (inhabiting a physical form), human or otherwise, are Souls.  It's not a case of having a soul, because we exist as souls before and after each life lived.

For me, what i call Soul Level awareness (knowing what you really are) lies beyond the astral layers we used to incarnate into this world through.

Love always.

yea, most of the people do not have a soul, they are called astral "organic portals"- 9,9bil
the largest problem of the world, bigger then the wars and the world hunger is how to get rid of them-  :wink:

when is the spirit put into the body? or when does the spirit own the body?

QuoteThere are some people who do not have a soul, when they die their spirit becomes absorbed
into the collective consciousness like raindrops in a lake.
Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul.

True and False. But this is misunderstood and read literally, like most Men read the Bible. Yet they believe they have total knowledge of things, when they don't even know what they are and why they are!. The rest is up to your intelligence to find the reasons.

Quote from: Jazket

QuoteThere are some people who do not have a soul, when they die their spirit becomes absorbed
into the collective consciousness like raindrops in a lake.
Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul.

True and False. But this is misunderstood and read literally, like most Men read the Bible. Yet they believe they have total knowledge of things, when they don't even know what they are and why they are!. The rest is up to your intelligence to find the reasons.

:wink:
One thing I learned from the "planet of the apes" is that religion IS for apes-  :cool:

Quote from: SmileySpirit14when is the spirit put into the body? or when does the spirit own the body?

The Qabalistic answer for this:  At the first drawn breath.  Ancient Qabala holds that the method of reincarnation is that souls come from the realms beyond to be reborn, but must find their own vessel, one is not appointed to them.  Souls basically wait around the womb for the birth, and are the child's first breath.

Occasionally there is a fight between souls wanting the same vessel, if you will, and fighting in close proximity to the child.  This can cause damage, and was the old explanation for birth defects of all types.

So, under this theory, is it possible for a child to be born without a soul to occupy it?  Definitely.  Will that child live?  Never.  You see, the divine spark of life imparted by a mother and father was only enough to power a single breath.  After that, the link to God provided by the soul was needed to sustain that spark and generate a fire.  Symbolics at its earliest.

Bloodsong

I didn't know you are a rosicrucian, bloodsong- ;)

That is because I am not, just very well read.

That one, though, came from a rabbi I knew in Austin.  He taught me a lot.  Said he didn't mind, thought the teachings of mystic Judaism were too scant in America, so it was okay to break the taboos of only teaching other Jews, as long as Gentiles had to work really hard for the knowledge!  Two hundred yards of fence repair later, I had two days to learn.

Bloodsong

Quote from: bloodsong

Quote from: SmileySpirit14when is the spirit put into the body? or when does the spirit own the body?

The Qabalistic answer for this:  At the first drawn breath.  Ancient Qabala holds that the method of reincarnation is that souls come from the realms beyond to be reborn, but must find their own vessel, one is not appointed to them.  Souls basically wait around the womb for the birth, and are the child's first breath.

Occasionally there is a fight between souls wanting the same vessel, if you will, and fighting in close proximity to the child.  This can cause damage, and was the old explanation for birth defects of all types.

So, under this theory, is it possible for a child to be born without a soul to occupy it?  Definitely.  Will that child live?  Never.  You see, the divine spark of life imparted by a mother and father was only enough to power a single breath.  After that, the link to God provided by the soul was needed to sustain that spark and generate a fire.  Symbolics at its earliest.

Bloodsong

it is not only that. it depends on power of the parents-
and also the media- fe; barbie-type, the weakest and youngest form of souls? are created by media, not by parents! and from that form of "plastification" they do not have a soul-
I wouldn't forget about pre-adamic organic portals also-  :wink:

Well, what I've come to accept is the fact that 'you are not your mind' and 'you are not your body' but the witnessing agent of those and everything else.

The one observing is the soul.  It's the true you.  You have life right now.  You are thinking about your soul.  You are aware.  The 'eye of the eye', the reason we "are" is our soul.  Everyone has a soul, even the murdering madman.  He has a soul, but the mind aspect of the trinity is really out of alignment...

Conclusion:  We (all of the life that exsists) exist because we have a soul.  The soul is the intrinsic foundation of life.  They're the same thing.

Quote from: Tracerammo
The one observing is the soul.  It's the true you.  You have life right now.  You are thinking about your soul.  You are aware.  The 'eye of the eye', the reason we "are" is our soul.  Everyone has a soul, even the murdering madman.  He has a soul, but the mind aspect of the trinity is really out of alignment...

Conclusion:  We (all of the life that exists) exist because we have a soul.  The soul is the intrinsic foundation of life.  They're the same thing.

funny. I would say:

The one observing is the consciousness.  It's the true you.  You have life right now.  You are aware.  
and I would say not everyone has a consciousness!  :wink:
it is simply, not interest of many-
and if someone says: NOW YOU ARE AWARE!
many would rightfully ask: BE AWARE WHERE?   :wink:

Quote from: apop

Quote from: Tracerammo


The one observing is the consciousness.  It's the true you.  You have life right now.  You are aware.  
and I would say not everyone has a consciousness!  :wink:

If you look into a chain linked fence, you'll 'see' diamond shapes between each folded metal wire.  Those diamonds aren't there on there own, but a result of the wires.

Consciousness is not there on it's own, but a result of a soul.  All things that are alive have souls.  Not all things that are alive have a consciousness, but are still alive.

The soul is the part of you that you can't think about.  When you think about it, you're only hinting at what you think it is with words (which are themselves the by-product of communication, not actually what the words are labeling.)  A soul is life, and life just is. Maybe...

well, I am not christian, but you say pure conscious cannot exist?
without (god who gives) souls?  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:   :lol:

well, I would always sacrifice soul for a consciousness!  :wink:
I would give her to the devil for the consciousness of absolutely all!  :cool:

yes, but the soul gives power of movement in the cosmos-  :grin:

I would say organic portals are 95%of planet. all borg. :cool:

Can anyone else, like myself just not come to grips with nonexistence? My dad is from the "when your dead, your dead" mode of thinking.

I exist. Whether it's body, soul. I exist. I feel as though I always existed. How can I just not exist? Can anybody explain that?

The more I read about this crap, the more confused I get. We're all just chasing answers for questions that will never be answered. It's part of the game you see.

Then I read that aliens are farming our souls? WTF. Talk about depressing. Beam me up Scotty.

Kevin

Quote from: knucklebrain1970Can anyone else, like myself just not come to grips with nonexistence? My dad is from the "when your dead, your dead" mode of thinking.

I exist. Whether it's body, soul. I exist. I feel as though I always existed. How can I just not exist? Can anybody explain that?

The more I read about this crap, the more confused I get. We're all just chasing answers for questions that will never be answered. It's part of the game you see.

Then I read that aliens are farming our souls? WTF. Talk about depressing. Beam me up Scotty.

Kevin

LOL..awwww, it's ok Kevin..    Best to just take everything you read with a grain of salt.  You'll drive yourself into depression and it will just keep running around in your mind...   As long as you're happy with yourself, why worry about the rest, know?

:abduct:   Nay   :wink:

The more I read, the more I'm convinced we know nothing. What pisses me off is the game. It seems like a game to me. A big tease, with either SH*T at the end or GOLD. One or the other. I want answers dammit. I do what you say already however. It's just the possibility of certain things that depress me, like the alien soul farming thing. There are thousands of people that actually believe this.

I want to be with loved ones when I die. Just like in the bible. But nope, that's not going to happen. I'm going to have to come back HERE. What the hell is the sense of loving anything? Everything just dies and our memory is RAPED.
NICE HA?

The more I read, the more I am convinced that we know nothing. There's my new signature. LOL


Kevin

Having a bad one, huh?   Sorry bout that...just don't let your brain explode.  

It is sad that alot of people believe that, but that is their path and as long as one of them isn't here trying to convince me, then I'm good. hehe.  

What makes you think you won't be with loved ones when you die?  And I know it sucks living in this topsy-turvey world, but we can only learn.   Sounds like your learning, just the bummer end of it at the moment. :grin:

I bet in a couple days something will happen to make you forget you even had this moment of, I'm tired of it feeling.  

Take Care,
Nay

PS.  I suggest STOP looking for answers, just live ....you'll be very surprised that they will find you.

No, I'm not that upset, just Monday. It'll be over soon. I'm trying more and more just to do what you said, just read stuff and form my own opinions. It is my belief that I can have my afterlife the way I want it to be. There's gotta be some kind of reward for living on this planet right?  :lol:

Quote from: knucklebrain1970Can anyone else, like myself just not come to grips with nonexistence? My dad is from the "when your dead, your dead" mode of thinking.

I exist. Whether it's body, soul. I exist. I feel as though I always existed. How can I just not exist? Can anybody explain that?

I guess non-existence could be likened to unconsciousness with no memory, i.e. undergoing general aesthetic and the hours you were under is less than a second to your conscious awareness as it's not recorded or even experiences of coma patients who have lost years and it seems instantaneous to them. Non-existence could be like this apart from you would never wake up.

Although if there isn't any afterlife it might not be all bad. Something I posted elsewhere:

I reason that if there is oblivion on death (yes I have projected since childhood, and do have some convincing evidence we are more than the physical body - I just can't totally discount all potential theories which have some weight - well until I truly do die  :smile: ) and we are the product of a physical brain/genetic pattern, we will live again an infinite number of times. In infinity infinite possibility must be carried out (even within certain strict rules) so the conditions to produce 'you' will be reproduced an infinite number of times. With oblivion there will be no passage of time, so even if vast amounts of time pass between each recreation, it will literally be instant to 'you'. Another theory I've reasoned is that consciousness is the same in each of us. That is every human who exists (and potentially every aware life form) shares the same basis of consciousness, individuality arises from different life experiences. So in effect every person on this planet is you but with differing life experiences. What this means is that if death is oblivion, you will exist in the next new born child. Not as 'you' but as a new point of consciousness which is exactly the same as your core. So either way, if there is life after death or not, we will be back :wink:

What about free will? Don't tell me I have it, because in my waking conscious state, right now, I choose that I do not want to come back. I do not and will not accept reincarnation.

So if I must reincarnate, who's pulling the strings?

Now you'll say that my soul chose this right? Well if my soul chose this, then there are 2 of me and I'm not running the show, right?

Now these are the questions that plague my mind.

Quote from: knucklebrain1970What about free will? Don't tell me I have it, because in my waking conscious state, right now, I choose that I do not want to come back. I do not and will not accept reincarnation.

So if I must reincarnate, who's pulling the strings?

Now you'll say that my soul chose this right? Well if my soul chose this, then there are 2 of me and I'm not running the show, right?

Now these are the questions that plague my mind.

Well I think free will is an unknown quantity with our current knowledge of the universe. I'm sat on the wall in regards to it. If I jumped either way it would be purely on the basis of belief.

Regarding reincarnation, if I refer back to the two possibilities I wrote above, no one is pulling the strings. With the first, it would be a purely mechanical action of the universe i.e. certain conditions arising which would be the same as those creating you now. But you wouldn't have any memories of any other existence.
The second would be similar. Our brains producing what we perceive as consciousness, this 'you' who replied above is simply this base brain-generated consciousness with your life experiences and genetic circumstances directing your outlook, personality, beliefs etc and creating a seeming individual.

If we believe there is existence of awareness after death, then I really don't know. Many religions and practices have their beliefs, but they are purely their own beliefs. I guess we'll just have to wait for death and see what happens :).

In my opinion, you DON'T have to come back if you don't want to.  Even while not in this physical body I think we continue to learn and I would think at a faster rate seeings how there is no human conditions to deal with there.  

So, when we feel we are done learning, then we're done learning.  But I don't think we ever stop..... just where we go to school at..

It's ok to be angry at the world, people....the whole injustice of it at times, just don't make it your life work.

Nay

Well, I already understand many things that it would take lifetimes to learn. I don't get angry anymore. Well just on the Internet :lol:

No, seriously, I have witnessed rage, knives, blood, violence with my parents for 18 years. I have lived in a rage for 33 years. I always wondered why I felt like crap and had no energy. ATTITUDE

That was my #1 revelation. The second one was my firm belief that "nothing gets in" meaning, no bill, no person, no job, is allowed to get inside me and produce a unwanted emotion, unless I deem it necessary to be there.

I also go about my days being nonjudgmental of things and humans. This is the most monumental task for me. I try not to overpower others with my opinions. Until opinions become truth to others, they are meaningless to others. Like telling people it's bad to smoke. Come on.

I do not empower the past either. I can dwell in misery with the memories of all the blood and violence I have witnessed and play the victim, or I can forgive and move on. I have forgiven my parents. I just choose not to associate with them. My choice.

The only other real barrier I have to overcome is that I create my reality with my thoughts. I have dreams. I focus on them continuously, but I have core defeatist beliefs firmly embedded in my subconscious that tell me my affirmations are useless. My waking conscious believes, but my subconscious does not believe that outrageous things are possible, like me being wealthy and not having to work as a corporate slave.

I've given up on meditation. I just fall asleep and nothing happens. I've meditated for about 3 years and there is no benefit other than feeling good and having a better perspective on life. However that's not my goal. My goal was to see the miraculous white light, meet Jesus and Buddha and all that and go places. It's obvious to me that some people just can't meditate and astral project.  I've spent countless hours trying. I give up.

So in my 35 years, I see how things work. I see how we are here to love and to help and to learn. I see how the environment is going to force us to be a union rather than trying to one-up others all the time. Other than having attachments to the people I love, the hobbies I have and my identity, I see no reason to come back. Supposedly you have to give up all you love and let it go to become enlightened. I don't see that happening. I love my wife and daughter. I want to be with them for eternity. Why can't I have that?

Kevin

QuoteI don't see that happening. I love my wife and daughter. I want to be with them for eternity. Why can't I have that?

You can...

I see you've hit that wall that screams, why can't that happen to me!!?...... I've done everything to make it happen...I deserve more, I turn my back on all of you!

Been there done that...  I've learned a couple things since then.  The minute you start feeling sorry for yourself, life is gonna throw something at you to make you feel even MORE sorry for yourself..lol  thus throwing you into this stupid cycle that I want to spare you. :grin:

Falling asleep is not the worst thing in the world.  And can I assume when you say, "My waking conscious believes, but my subconscious does not believe that outrageous things are possible, like me being wealthy and not having to work as a corporate slave." means you aren't aware of your dreams anymore?

I already said you can't go around looking for answers....scratch that...you can't go around expecting answers, or a burning bush in this case.   I have no idea why it works that way..LOL..Yet the minute you start expecting things because you feel you've done something to deserve it, it seems to null and void it.  

BUT.........  there is another aspect to this.  You expect things because of what you read about, heard or otherwise.  That is a huge driving force in what we feel or think these days..especially for the younger peeps.  No offense but I'm surprised you're 35...

You read stories of people doing this and that in the astral, or doing this or that in the physical.  Well, most people are.....embellishing, or flat out lying,  thus giving the idea that it's a snap.  In a sense, it is.......once you get the snap down.  

So, your feelings are valid!  LOL..didn't think I was gonna say that, or did you?  In a few days Kevin, you'll see.  Stop thinking...

Take Care,
Nay

I think I know where Kevin is coming from on creating his reality.  I'm a firm believer in that your thoughts/beliefs make your life, but until recently had a hard time realizing this.  What finally made it click for me was a license plate I saw one day that read RELAX.  You have to relax in everything, and I mean everything you do.  Whether it's driving to work or playing sports.  When you relax your mind things become clearer.  After I truly started to relax I was able to think and believe in what I was thinking and eventually it started to manifest itself in my life (now, I'm not talking about winning the lottery, just small things...not that I don't think your thoughts can make you wealthy, that just takes time and to truly believe).

For example, I drive an hour and a half each way to work.  It seems that every other driver on the road p*ssed me off in some way (whether it was justified or not to be upset).  Now when I start to get upset (while driving or with anything else) I tell myself to relax.  I can't control what other people do, but I can control how it affects me.  Granted, there are still times I do get upset, but they are fewer and far between and I think eventually it won't happen anymore.  Now when I drive I think of thoughts of how I want my current life to be and I can honestly say my life is much more happier now than it's ever been and slowly but surely my life is changing to match my thoughts.

I took me years to really believe in my thoughts, but now that I see it happening in everyday life, it's much easier and gets easier by the day.  I mentioned above that I believe you can will (for lack of a better work) yourself wealthy, and for a while I thought that was something I wanted.  But I found by examining what I really want that wealth isn't a high priority in my life.  I do believe that someday I will be wealthy, but first and foremost are my son, wife and truly being happy with myself.  Oh, and wealthy to me means having enough money not to have to go to a job working for other people who could care less about myself and my priorities.

As for what happens in the afterlife, I don't think you know that until you do die.  I do have my own thoughts on this and to an extent I believe my thoughts on this will manifest in the afterlife as well.  Right now (and I don't see this changing) there are only two things holding me to this current life; my son and wife.  If it weren't for them, the afterlife might be really attractive!

Dave

I think, "we" should not look through emotional perspective.
with Intuition yes, with Intelligence yes, with consciousness yes, but not through astral barrier of emotions.  :cool:
my Friend yesterday, look at the woman in one restaurant. she was certain she is a puppet! and then she moved(the puppet) and my friend was amazed!

I don't come by these parts often, but this caught my spirit's interest so as runlola requested I am going to add my thoughts.  To be very direct, and some may not like to hear this, I think we should be spending our time trying to become awakened in case this is true!  Time is running out... don't wait till you die to find out if this is true or not.  Awaken!

QuoteThere are some people who do not have a soul, when they die their spirit becomes absorbed
into the collective consciousness like raindrops in a lake.
Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul.

Namaste,
Zentiger

Quote from: Zentigerdon't wait till you die to find out if this is true or not.  Awaken!

this is what gnostic jesus told in Gospel of Thomas!   :razz:

Quote from: knucklebrain1970Well, I already understand many things that it would take lifetimes to learn. I don't get angry anymore. Well just on the Internet :lol:

No, seriously, I have witnessed rage, knives, blood, violence with my parents for 18 years. I have lived in a rage for 33 years. I always wondered why I felt like crap and had no energy. ATTITUDE

That was my #1 revelation. The second one was my firm belief that "nothing gets in" meaning, no bill, no person, no job, is allowed to get inside me and produce a unwanted emotion, unless I deem it necessary to be there.

I also go about my days being nonjudgmental of things and humans. This is the most monumental task for me. I try not to overpower others with my opinions. Until opinions become truth to others, they are meaningless to others. Like telling people it's bad to smoke. Come on.

I do not empower the past either. I can dwell in misery with the memories of all the blood and violence I have witnessed and play the victim, or I can forgive and move on. I have forgiven my parents. I just choose not to associate with them. My choice.

The only other real barrier I have to overcome is that I create my reality with my thoughts. I have dreams. I focus on them continuously, but I have core defeatist beliefs firmly embedded in my subconscious that tell me my affirmations are useless. My waking conscious believes, but my subconscious does not believe that outrageous things are possible, like me being wealthy and not having to work as a corporate slave.

I've given up on meditation. I just fall asleep and nothing happens. I've meditated for about 3 years and there is no benefit other than feeling good and having a better perspective on life. However that's not my goal. My goal was to see the miraculous white light, meet Jesus and Buddha and all that and go places. It's obvious to me that some people just can't meditate and astral project.  I've spent countless hours trying. I give up.

So in my 35 years, I see how things work. I see how we are here to love and to help and to learn. I see how the environment is going to force us to be a union rather than trying to one-up others all the time. Other than having attachments to the people I love, the hobbies I have and my identity, I see no reason to come back. Supposedly you have to give up all you love and let it go to become enlightened. I don't see that happening. I love my wife and daughter. I want to be with them for eternity. Why can't I have that?

Kevin

Hi kevin, your post got my attention. Yesterday I posted an article in my blog about "Everything happens for a reason". It's about freewill and karma, and why there seems to be always someone directing your life. If you wish to read it, I hope it'll give you some answers... or at least direct you to making the right questions.

As for your meditation technique... well I just get a little disappointed when people say they've tried everything. Maybe you didn't! I don't know which method you used, but there are hundreds! Maybe it was eastern, and it doesn't suit your western mind. Maybe it didn't suit your goals. If something doesn't work, try something else. If you keep doing the same thing, you'll just keep getting more of the same. I suggest you go to www.higherbalance.com and try Eric Pepin out. He opened my eyes about meditation, and he delivers what you seek. Just open your mind and hear what he as to say first... then if you wish to try it out, it's only a decision away.

When Thomas Edison failed a thousand times before he invented the light bulb, a journalist asked him "how is it like to feel, to fail so many times?". To which he replied "I didn't fail... I successfully learned what didn't work!". Great mindset! The greatest achievements and revelations are just around the corner of "giving up".

About being with your family for eternity, I guess you must understand that you won't be forced to reincarnate, as you put it. You WILL be attracted to that which you are focused on. As for eternity... my guess is someone in your family, or even you, will sooner or later realize the need to growth. It may be apart from each other, and it may be together. Only you can know that. I say you will change and grow, and in some point in your personal evolution you will perceive things differently. When adults say they want to be with someone for eternity, they mean for a very long time! When I was a little kid I said I would NEVER even date a girl... let alone marry! 2 years later I couldn't stop thinking about girls!

You can't be fighting against gravity, jumping to the air all day long. It's a physical law that applies to everyone. The same with everyone's need to grow. You may be with your family in 3 thousand of our year's time, only to learn that you must move on. And this is the thing... it IS your decision. No one will be forcing it on you. Change is 100% guaranteed... the only question is its rate. If you need one more lifetime on earth to grow, then you will naturally decide to reincarnate. If you've experienced everything there is to experience in the physical, then you'll move on.

I like to see physical life as being the kinder garden, and I want to finish college.

As for NOT everyone has a SOUL subject... don't say, maybe no one knows. Maybe there are lots of people who see things as they are, or as close to the truth. You and most people have some missing basics. I don't say I have them all, I'm trying to be impartial here (we all have our own path). What I'm trying to say is that it only takes ONE missing basic to perceive things SO much different. Just be patient and... if you really wish to know, then when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

I think the biggest problem here is that people naturally ignore some facts and sometimes they are so many, it makes me wander why people have overlooked some things so many times. I try to see it as a puzzle. We get some pieces here and there... remember that every piece connects to 4 others (most). Than things start to click and you can see how they're related.

You should be able to see something from different points of view. It's like having two cameras in an aquarium, focused in front and the side of just one fish. When looked separately, they seem to be different things. Soon you realize that when fish #1 moves to the left, fish #2 moves to the left. They seem to be communicating instantly. Then you realize that's actually the same thing.

It is also a problem of communication. Words are supposed to be a consensus, but we do give them different meanings based on our own experience. I think it's important to say things like "this for me means...".

Now back to you Kevin, the URL of my post is http://quantum-focus.blogspot.com/2006/02/everything-happens-for-reason.html, if you wish to take a look at it.

Take care everybody :wink: