Path to enlightenment?

[Astral Projection]

@zappazorn
and what happens when we woke up from this dream? This world ceases out?

[zappazorn]

yes. this world is only our ignorance manifested. When the SELF is realized it will swallow the infinite. You will no longer exist within the infinite, the infinite will exist within you. When ignorance is eradicated the Self that was buried beneath the layers of ignorance is released and explodes out engulfing the infinite.

[Sadd-e Eskandar]

And who's to say that too isn't an illusion aswell?

[Selski]

And who's to say that too isn't an illusion aswell?

Exactly!  Great point.

Have some karma for that. 

Sarah

[zappazorn]

And who's to say that too isn't an illusion aswell?

Thank you for keeping me on my toes. I know my post probably comes off as I KNOW THE ANSWER YOU DONT!
But I promise that is not my intentions. I do stand firm in conviction with the knowledge I have attained through my efforts. Which is why I speak that way. But I am open to learning. I do realize that any insights one attains can easily be turned into more conditioning bovine excrement if one clings to there views, no matter how true they are. So thank you for keeping me on my toes, even if it wasnt your intentions.

bovine excrement? HA!

[Stookie]

If that's an illusion too, then it pretty much means everything is an illusion, and it's an endless loop. So nothing exists. Yet I'm typing this. So something exists. But it's an illusion... but there has to be a reality somewhere for the illusion to exist, eh? But the reality is beyond all existence/illusions, so dosen't exist.

In other words, it's beyond the illusion of my intelligence.

[Alaskans]

zapazorn: What exactly is your definition of illusion? If you think about the word illusion, it only means non-existence, so how is it that nothing exists? Now a proper word for the physical isn't illusion, but distraction. We are distracted into duality. I suppose you could call it ignorance, but nothing about the planing of the universe is ignorant, its all extremely intelligent, and everything, including duality has perpose.

You're asking questions from a higher power, you're going to have to prepare your way of thinking a little more to hear it clearly.

[zappazorn]

zapazorn: What exactly is your definition of illusion? If you think about the word illusion, it only means non-existence, so how is it that nothing exists? Now a proper word for the physical isn't illusion, but distraction. We are distracted into duality. I suppose you could call it ignorance, but nothing about the planing of the universe is ignorant, its all extremely intelligent, and everything, including duality has perpose.

You're asking questions from a higher power, you're going to have to prepare your way of thinking a little more to hear it clearly.

OK when I say illusion. I am talking of eye consciousness, nose consciousness, ear consciousness, tounge consciousness, feeling(body) cosciousness, intellect consciousness. All of that is distraction, or ignorance. All of that is the universe, your world, my world his world. Yes there is purpose to the duality, it is through this duality that we can attain to that ONE. There is ignorance, so there is the world. When there is ignorance there is the body, when there is the body there is the six senses, when there is the six senses there is the world and when there is the world there is birth, decay and death and everthing else inbetween. The world and ignorance are one and the same, they come simultaneously just as heat comes with fire. But it is through this world that we may realize wisdom. It is like a ladder we climb or an ocean we sail across. This world is really a beautful thing, when you look at nature it is RIGHT. It always moves in the direction of Rightness, like a tree turning to the sun with out thought, it just does what nature intends. We are like that tree and this world is our sun. We will all grow and become perfect as nature intends.
Yeah I agree that the word illusion can mean non-existence, and I say that THIS world is truly non-existent and it is your SELF alone which is existent. But the only way to realize the ever existent SELF is through growth. We are all growing right now, turning towards the sun, even the ones which seem to be spiraling down are really growing, there spiraling down is part of there growth, part of there path to perfection.
In the state of samadhi eye, nose, ear, tounge, feeling and intellect consciousness cease and the only thing to remain is you SELF, or God or Atman or whatever you want to call it. This is the only thing which is unchanging, permenant, and real and you are that.
I agree I think distraction is a much better term to use than illusion.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

You are permenant, but everything else is inpermenant. You will exist forever, and have always existed, but that new car will break down and rust. What good to you is that job you really want after death? The new house with the fancy technology will crumble. Computers break. Earth will some day pass away. If you are eternal, then what is all of these things here on the physical but an illusion?

[Kenneth]

Hello Astral projection,

I would like to share my thoughts on what I see is "my path to enlightenment".

Perhaps you can use some of it  (It was in another thread in this forum, but it matches this topic perfectly).

Kind regards
Kenneth

Whou - a lot of good thoughts in this thread!! 

GroovyGoddess wrote:

So, ultimately 'Learning how to die' means to me that a person has completely satisfied their need for experience, so there is simply nothing left to do... .... Other than to play with our life-situations, other people, and have a he** of a lot of fun doing it 

Faraz wrote about the book "The power of now" by Ekhart Tolle, and I would also like to recommend that book!! ... Also important from that book is the importance of being present in the here and now, instead of getting "grabbed" by the thoughts and feelings of the past and future.

About enlightenment:

- There is a saying that goes, that "Enlightenment is the absence of pain and suffering" (or something like that). So in order to bring that "down to earth", it must mean something like eliminating all these little nags, pains, negative thoughts etc. etc. within me, and I am home free?

There is a whole world of techniques to remove pain and suffering, and getting through traumas and stuck thoughts and ideas - I would recommend EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique - www.emofree.com ), as being one of the most effective ones.

Another saying goes something like: "Before enlightenment, bring wood and chop water - after enlightenment, bring wood and chop water" ... (or is it the other way round??  ). As I understand that one, it is to try to explain, that you do not actually change once you become Enlightenment - you are still you. There is actually so much of you, that pain and suffering does not have a snowballs chance in hell within your inward acceptance, clear mind, and ability to distinguish what is you, and what is your emotions and energy-movements, and thereby NOT you  (and writing become enlightenment instead of writing become enlightened is actually a conscious choice from my side - it is not something you "wear", or take on as a "role" or something - it is YOU on the inside, and not a shell you climb into).

"Accept inward in order to create possibilities outward" ... That one is (for me) the convincing theory why we should try to accept ourselves, accept ourselves, accept ourselves again and again and again.... and still being able to change what we do or say to others!! ...

I have tried to create a "filter" within my mind, that response to each and every degrading thought and difficult emotion, pain and fear with a couple of "Even though ... <this thought, pain, fear or emotion>, I completely and utterly accept and forgive my self".

It doesn't matter if you believe what you say or not - your subconscious is a sort of "automatic" programmable something, that very soon will learn to emulate what you are consciously trying to tell it. Once that happens, keep saying it, and slowly but surely you will "negate" all the negative within, by actually acknowledge that it exists within you, and at the same time accepting your self  (There is more to this, but this is a "short" version).

[Sadd-e Eskandar]

You are permenant, but everything else is inpermenant. You will exist forever, and have always existed, but that new car will break down and rust. What good to you is that job you really want after death? The new house with the fancy technology will crumble. Computers break. Earth will some day pass away. If you are eternal, then what is all of these things here on the physical but an illusion?

And what if the being doesn't want to be ethernal?

[astraluminated]

your true being is eternal, it is the spirit the self the atma or whatever. You are true awareness pure bliss. all the rest can perish, ofcourse the Kundalini is also eternal. Shri Krisna once said that enlightenment or liberation is very very difficult, almost impossible. Unless the Adi Shakti interferes. Adi Shakti is the Holy Ghost the Wife of God the vader, She does all the living work in the universe. If your Kundalini is awakened She will then purify all your thoughts and chakras and nadis, and She will bring back the dharma back into your awareness. Carl Jung once said that with the awakening of the Kundalini you enter into a world which is far different from our own, it is a world of eternity.
Because the Kingdom of God is in you and your surroundings, The universe is represented in you. The Kingdom of God is within your sahasrara. And you have to be innocent like a child to enter it. And it can only be entered in the present moment in the now, the past and the future is an illusion. What is love in past?, what is love in the future, that is no love, true love is in the now.
www.adishakti.org

[Sadd-e Eskandar]

Yes, yes, i applaud what she does, but-Spirital death? Does the spirit have to ask that spirit or God, or his/her  higher-self, or do the spirit  have to commit act of evil in order to go back in the evolution scale thus achieving the state of non existence?

[IC]

Alaskans, what do you mean by "logistics problems"?

I've had similar experiences with the my mirror - quite often the person staring back at me seems foreign, like i dont recognise it. Wtf?!?!

[Awakened_Mind]

A good essay on "What is Enlgihtenment?"

http://www.english.upenn.edu/~mgamer/Etexts/kant.html

I've read the Power of Now. Definately a good book. Another good one thats very well written. You can read it in no more than 3 hours is Buddhism Plain and simple. To anyone thats interested in the topic of 'the way of living' books, I'd recommend the book as an investment.

-AM

[astraluminated]

The Spirit cannot commit any crime because it is the perfect reflection of our Creator. The Spirit or the Self is eternal and is complete innocense and purity that there are no words in describing it.
And there is such a thing as spiritual death, or second death, this happens when the physical universe cease to exist and you cannot ascend to the spiritual universe wich does not end.
There is also a second birth though.

[Lighthouse]

Hello everyone.  Good discussion.  I'm rarely around (seem to be coming around more lately) and saw this great thread.  I saw a few points I wanted to address.

Firstly, Hello WalkerInTheWoods, you already know you and I are on the same wavelength and zapprizorn, thank you for your awareness.  

Here are the posts that popped out to me that I wanted to address:

Quote from SS_Patrick

If that's enlightenment, then I don't want to become enlightened.

In my opinion that "there is no self" - stuff is an evil lie. Communist propaganda and nothing else. Everything is interconnected, but everything is not the same and everyone is not equal.

I think the misunderstanding here might be the definition of "self" or ego vs "Self" or Consciousness.  The ego or "little self" is the aspect of our awareness that perceives.  This is the aspect of you who experiences the world through your senses as zapprizorn pointed out earlier. To eat a mango, one must engage the senses.  If all of your senses are in working order, you will see, smell, taste, hear and touch the experience of eating a mango.  In order to do this, one will perceive that the mango is separate from you.  This is not so.  You are NOW.  Everything within your perceptual awareness in any moment is YOU experiencing Your SELF.  The misunderstanding comes in when you identify with only your body or the vehicle you use to experience your perceptual awareness.  Consciousness uses that vehicle to experience its Self but the vehicle (or body) is in no way separate from the experience. (I hope you are following me here)  There is nothing "evil" nor is there any propaganda, it is merely a shift in perceptual awareness from identification with the vehicle itself to that of the observer and the totality of the experience.  


SS_Patrick

No, there are definitely individual souls. Research on reincarnation and OBEs proves that.

This is also perceptual awareness.  All it "proves" is that One can create this experience.  It is not in any way separate from the totality of All you are.  There are no individual souls, just the perception of individuals.  I like to use the analogy of a sea urchin.  A sea urchin has many tentacles or spines.  Each spine may be perceived as a separate individual and who knows, each spine (if the spines of a sea urchin were self-conscious) may perceive itself as separate individuals and may perceive that the other spines were not an extended aspect of its Self.  The spines of the sea urchin do not have independent volition because they are One with the sea urchin.  Similarly, you as a person, are not separate from the rest of Consciousness, it is only your perceptual awareness that seems separate.  You and I and everyone else are all spines on the body of consciousness yet we perceive ourselves as separate individuals.  When we are acting from a place of ego, we will perceive that things "happen to us" instead of being an aspect of who we are.  Therefore, the more you accept the moment and "what is," the more you will find yourself in the flow of life because you stop fighting yourself and allow Consciousness to flow through you without judging things as good or evil, right or wrong, light or dark.  You then know you are ALL and Nothing both at the same time.


Sadd-e Eskandar

And what if the being doesn't want to be ethernal?

That would imply there are individual beings.  Since there is only One, it would be the ego that doesn't want to be eternal and the ego (sense of separate self) is the illusion.

[no_leaf_clover]

The idea that we are all "drops in the ocean" is sick and wrong.

Why?  Are you that much better than everyone else?  Too good to be equal?

Maybe you're more than just a drop in the ocean to you, but to everyone else you're no different, if not lesser than all the other me's and I's of everyone else (ie the people that also think that THEY are more deserving of life than many others, and are "bigger drops", even if only on the inside).  Objectively you are a drop in the ocean.  The problem is that you're too attached to your ego to easily admit this to yourself; your ego is making you WANT to be important and exert your influence over the world.


If someone killed you in your sleep tonight, it should be of no more significance than if a drifter that no one knew killed himself.  All the things that make you think otherwise,  the feelings of your family for you, fears of death, fears of the unknown,  unaccomplished goals, sadness, wanting to feel more important than others, feeling that something is inherently wrong with death, etc., are the "lies" we're fed by our egos that we must eventually reject if we want to become truly powerful.  THOSE are the illusions; THEY don't matter any more than we allow them to matter.  And my question is: why would you make these things matter?  Do you want to feel depression and anger and all of that?  It's probably more habit than anything else, being raised in our particular society where our egos are allowed to satisfy themselves as much as they want, as long as we exert ourselves with enough influence over others.  Our egos want to say "it's all about ME!", but there are aspects of yourself that know better.

If you were that much more deserving than others somehow, what do you think you'd get?  God's grand prize?  If I were God, the prize would be a hard kick in the face with a steel-toed boot.


And the reason a family member would be saddened by your death is because s/he wouldn't ever get to see or communicate with you again, even though they much enjoyed it.  How is this a service to you in any way?  It isn't.   It's totally selfish.  Some people are more affected than others by the deaths of loved ones, and some people simply say "they went on to a better place" and immediately accept it, or feel very little sadness.  These people are more at peace with the universe, and less out to beat everybody to some punch line, or angry at life for "not being fair", or etc., any nonsense that's self-centered.

How does that resonate with you?  Not very well, I would imagine.

[zappazorn]

Its been a while since I last posted here. hello all,
All beings have an innate desire to be happy. This desire for happiness is always present, its presence is suffering because as along as the desire is there it means we are unfulfilled. The problem is we dont know how to fulfill that desire. We lack the wisdom to see that the true nature of reality is dependantly arisen (arisen from causes), empty of self-essence and impermanent. Lacking this wisdom of the true nature of reality we cling to it as if it is substantial and can fullfill our innate desire for happiness. It doesnt quench that thirst for happiness, in other words our suffering, because what we cling to is always changing so our happiness is not stable or lasting. We may attain moments of happiness, but it is never lasting as our world is always changing. Depending on this impermanent world for our happiness is like patching a leaky hole in the roof of your house with cardboard, it may hold for a little bit, but eventually the rain comes through and you have to put up another peice, its just a temporary fix. The innate quest for happiness puts ourselves in a subtle, but constant state of suffering which fixates our attention to ourself and the desire to ease it. Like if you have a pounding migraine its pretty difficult to focus on anything else put your pain and your desire to be rid of it. Lacking the wisdom to see the not-self nature of our personality and reality we continue to cling to a reality we see as substantial and capable of releiving our suffering. On the path to freedom from all suffering, love and wisdom are inseperable. With wisdom our attachment to our self weakens because we begin to see the dream-like selfless nature of reality. We cannot cling anymore to a reality that has no more substance than empty space. When we let go, our suffering ends and our ultimate desire for lasting happiness is fulfilled, simply because we no longer are serving an illusory self and illusory world. The desire for happiness is love itself. We by nature love our illusory selves which is why we desire happiness for ourselves, which is why we suffer. To see the emptiness of self and the world we let go and that love that was directed inward on an empty self that was taken as substantial is released and freedom is realized. The ultimate unending happiness is to simply love all unconditionaly. Your consciousness is empty, it is a good thing. That means it is free and fluid and not restricted and bound up, it is unconditioned, and the unconditioned is love and wisdom inseperable.

[Lighthouse]

Zappazorn

Excellent post.

[Alaskans]

Do you think love is limited? Like you can only give a certain amount? I loved everything equally as you spoke of, to me it didnt matter if it was plant, animal, human, wall, water, or rock. My reasoning is we are all victims of circumstance, we are only great because of circumstance, we are only evil because of circumstance. I believed that love cannot be conditional, or it is just a purchase. But I had an experience where I felt a great amount of love for God (of the universe). I visited my mentor/guide and asked him, 'I gave my heart to God, is this right?' he said 'No, give your love to me.' I realized that you cannot love unconditionally and equally so long as you are not a buddha. Love to your master is important for creating the necicary link between you, especially if your master is not physical. You however cannot expect anything to result from your love, or that will be a perchase. I also thought of the metaphor of a flashlight and a laser. You cannot cut through a steel block with a flashlight, but you can with a laser. So the question is, when can we love the way love was meant to be?

[zappazorn]

So the question is, when can we love the way love was meant to be?

I agree only a Buddha is expressing unconditional love. Love is service.
We can only love/serve the way loving/serving was ment to be when with wisdom we cut through the illusion of a substantial self/world. With wisdom one sees that the inner and outer flow together as one, so the love that was directed inward on an illusion no longer directs anywhere, it permeates all directions without end. We are by nature loving servants, but buried beneath ignorance we end up serving a limited illusion of self. Our true nature is not limited like that, so when we love our ego we are not fully loving ourselves, so we are deprived which is why we are never satisfied and always searching for happiness. Our true nature is unlimited so our love must be unlimited, we must love and serve the whole which is all there is. The only way to do that is to dispell the illusion, you cant force yourself to love things or learn to love things. The love is already there, it is our true nature. So we have to cultivate wisdom in order to see the empty nature of self/world. Once the illusion of a substantial self/world is dissovled we love autimaticaly. We already love ourself, so once we realize our self is the whole we autimaticaly love the whole.

[astraluminated]

Alaskan, I think you should love God even if your mentor said not to. And how do you know this mentor of yours is so holy so enlightened, is he really the link between you and God? Be carefull with mentors and guides, can they give you that unconditional love that you so desire, do they guide you in that direction, or are they the one stealing your attention away from God. The is that you should become, that source of true love, which is self, atman, the pure reflection of God Almighty.
Do these guides help you become that self, wich is illuminated by itself and sustained by its own light? Ask yourself these question Alaskan,

[psychonaut]

enlighenment is lightening up.