Please help me out

[shadow_specter]

    It's been FOREVER seen i've been on these forums, but anywayz.Me and my friend got into a heated arguement over religion (christianity), and he always answered with illogical responses that made no sense.  My arguement about the baby torture was an arguement so that one would think about who validates what is "right" for the baby, the bible, God, priests, society, or your consciousness?  He obviously says a very illogical string of statements.  Btw im by no means anti-christian, but i dont believe in magical beings tempting people and saving people miraculously.  I was raised hardcore christian and had faith n god, but discovered that my faith was more ignorance.  Anywayz, if someone could PLEASE take the time to read part of this arguement, and give me some feedback on the fallacies of both our arguements, it would be IMMENSELY appreciated.  Btw tomorrow i will post about information on a religion which is EXTREMELY close to what i believe, almost on point, and will help explain my point of view about christianity.  (Something extremely freaky, was that earlier in the conversation he kept on talking about "God's will", when on t.v., on a RANDOM comedy, the guy happened to mention god's will.  He was jokin about god's will to get in his wife's pants.  It almost seems too coincidental that these 2 things matched up perfectly in THIS type of conversation.........  some input please?)

Prodigy51288 (11:11:10 PM):  but lets say that one day there comes a time in your life that something really really dirty happens and you have no one to turn to...would you pray...
xShadowXSpecterx (11:11:32 PM): no, cuz i know that what i do is a product of my actions
xShadowXSpecterx (11:11:39 PM): i reap what i sow... not some magic force influencing things
Prodigy51288 (11:12:31 PM):  so all this evil stuff that happens you're saying that they are not tempted by a greater evil
xShadowXSpecterx (11:12:47 PM): whats the "evil" stuff.... "evil" is a subjective term as it is
xShadowXSpecterx (11:12:51 PM): but yah, i dont believe its some greater evil
xShadowXSpecterx (11:12:58 PM): i believe its just human nature
xShadowXSpecterx (11:13:05 PM): i have no reason to believe its a greater evil
Prodigy51288 (11:13:09 PM):  so what is human nature
Prodigy51288 (11:13:16 PM):  how did we get human nature
xShadowXSpecterx (11:13:28 PM): its basic psychology man, and its shaped by the way we act
Prodigy51288 (11:13:36 PM):  if we had control over our nature then why not follow the path of good
xShadowXSpecterx (11:13:42 PM): what is "good"
xShadowXSpecterx (11:13:46 PM): and we do
xShadowXSpecterx (11:13:51 PM): its just not always that simple as u make it sound
xShadowXSpecterx (11:13:52 PM): tell me
xShadowXSpecterx (11:14:00 PM): lets say ur wife was 8 months pregnant
xShadowXSpecterx (11:14:07 PM): and someone said to u
xShadowXSpecterx (11:14:18 PM): as soon as this baby is born, its going to live the rest of its life suffering
xShadowXSpecterx (11:14:24 PM): its going to be tortured till the age of 90, a life of suffereing
xShadowXSpecterx (11:14:33 PM): is it better to kill the baby before its born, or give it the right ot live?
Prodigy51288 (11:15:11 PM):  Well it's not up to him to decide what happens to my baby..it's up to God...and if he wants to send it to hell in order to test my faith to him then so be it
xShadowXSpecterx (11:15:29 PM): so what would u decide?
Prodigy51288 (11:16:08 PM):  how would that person know what was going to happen to him thats my question
xShadowXSpecterx (11:16:26 PM): wha..?
xShadowXSpecterx (11:16:29 PM): do u mean the baby?
xShadowXSpecterx (11:16:35 PM): or what
Prodigy51288 (11:16:51 PM):  yeah how would that person know whats going to happen to the baby
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:07 PM): omg
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:17 PM): its like
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:22 PM): HE'S A TERRORIST
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:26 PM): he says as soon as the babies gonna be born
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:27 PM): hes gonna take it
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:29 PM): and torture it
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:31 PM): from day 1
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:32 PM): thats how
Prodigy51288 (11:17:42 PM):  what if i stopped him from taking it
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:50 PM): thats not the point of the question eic
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:51 PM): eric
xShadowXSpecterx (11:17:54 PM): the point is, what would u say
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:01 PM): do u justify what u say by running it by god
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:12 PM): by the bible
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:14 PM): or by ur consciousness
Prodigy51288 (11:18:16 PM):  the man has no power what to decide what happens to my baby
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:20 PM): OMG
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:30 PM): first of all, that type of situation happens all the time
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:38 PM): and 2nd of all, ur still beating aorund the bush and missing the point
xShadowXSpecterx (11:18:42 PM): the point is, what do u decide
Prodigy51288 (11:18:55 PM):  i'm not beating around any bush..your coming up with stupid questions here
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:01 PM): no its a real question
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:05 PM): seriously what would u answer
Prodigy51288 (11:19:12 PM):  i told you my answer
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:17 PM): u could ether
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:18 PM): kill it
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:20 PM): or let it be born
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:25 PM): into a life of misery and torture until its death
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:27 PM): what would u pick
Prodigy51288 (11:19:39 PM):  i'm sticking with the answer i gace
Prodigy51288 (11:19:41 PM):  gave*
xShadowXSpecterx (11:19:44 PM): whats that?
Prodigy51288 (11:19:58 PM):  the man has no power to decide what happens to my baby
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:03 PM): .....
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:06 PM): thats not one of the choices tho..
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:10 PM): and
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:15 PM): how does he not have a choice
Prodigy51288 (11:20:40 PM):  because how does he know that it will be tortured and go to hell...
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:47 PM): NO
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:55 PM): it has nothing to do with the baby goin to hell
xShadowXSpecterx (11:20:58 PM): HE IS GOING TO torture the baby
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:03 PM): PHYSICALLY
Prodigy51288 (11:21:07 PM):  but i stopped him from doing that
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:11 PM): HOW....
Prodigy51288 (11:21:28 PM):  by taking the baby when it was born and calling the police
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:36 PM): no, eric, ur still missing the point
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:45 PM): lets say
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:47 PM): U ONLYH have those 2 options
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:51 PM): theres no heroic deeds or anything
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:55 PM): theres a point to this question eric
xShadowXSpecterx (11:21:59 PM): but ur coming up with 3rd options
Prodigy51288 (11:22:02 PM):  theres always more options though
xShadowXSpecterx (11:22:05 PM): dude
xShadowXSpecterx (11:22:15 PM): just pick either A or B
Prodigy51288 (11:22:25 PM):  nah I like my option better
xShadowXSpecterx (11:22:31 PM): the point im tryin to make is
xShadowXSpecterx (11:22:46 PM): who makes the decision
xShadowXSpecterx (11:22:55 PM): on whether it is better
Prodigy51288 (11:22:56 PM):  who makes what decision
xShadowXSpecterx (11:23:14 PM): whether its better to spare a life from a life of complete misery
xShadowXSpecterx (11:23:19 PM): or if u give them the gift of life
xShadowXSpecterx (11:23:28 PM): knowing their whole existence will be a hell on earth
Prodigy51288 (11:23:41 PM):  i don't know if it will live a life of hell on earth
xShadowXSpecterx (11:23:49 PM): omg...
Prodigy51288 (11:23:54 PM):  no one knows but God
Prodigy51288 (11:23:55 PM):  xP
xShadowXSpecterx (11:23:59 PM): r u serious..
xShadowXSpecterx (11:24:02 PM): i hope ur not just messing with me
Prodigy51288 (11:26:02 PM):  i don't know what you're talking about mike..I mean if you don't want to believe in God then don't...I'm not forcing you to...but I believe there is one and no one will change my mind about that..now sure you can't take the bible literally all the time..for example if they say someone had to sacrifice their son in order to glorify God then its just a way of saying that you should devote your soul to God...they arent really saying to kill the son...its just the way people talked back then...
Prodigy51288 (11:26:31 PM):  but if you don't believe then don't...but don't go around saying you know the truth about everything and trying to say there isn't a God..
xShadowXSpecterx (11:27:42 PM): no
xShadowXSpecterx (11:27:46 PM): but ur totally missing the point of the arguement
xShadowXSpecterx (11:27:59 PM): and ur taking 3rd options that defy the whole point of the arguement
Prodigy51288 (11:28:00 PM):  im not missing the point
Prodigy51288 (11:28:20 PM):  i'm taking the 3rd option...you know why? because I can...I have the will to do so...
Prodigy51288 (11:28:35 PM):  if i didn't then i would take your option but i'm not a robot or slave
Prodigy51288 (11:29:16 PM):  why do i pick the third option...because of free will..God gave us this free will...i chose to use my will to pick a third option
xShadowXSpecterx (11:29:37 PM): so if theres a test
xShadowXSpecterx (11:29:40 PM): and theres answers A and B
xShadowXSpecterx (11:29:49 PM): do u have the free will to choose C?
Prodigy51288 (11:29:56 PM):  yes
xShadowXSpecterx (11:30:03 PM): that makes no sense
xShadowXSpecterx (11:30:06 PM): and its illogical
Prodigy51288 (11:30:09 PM):  i have the will to choose it but will i
Prodigy51288 (11:30:16 PM):  well that depends on the situation
Prodigy51288 (11:31:34 PM):  the problem with humans is they want a logical answer for everything because they can't accept the fact that everything isn't always logical
Prodigy51288 (11:32:13 PM):  if we were supposed to have the answers to everything then we would have been created to know everything..but we aren't..simple as that..
xShadowXSpecterx (11:32:28 PM): i agree with that too
xShadowXSpecterx (11:32:37 PM): but in my situation even, u keep on spring up 3rd options
xShadowXSpecterx (11:32:43 PM): which isn't an option
xShadowXSpecterx (11:32:48 PM): and saying that its ur free will
Prodigy51288 (11:33:02 PM):  it is my free will
Prodigy51288 (11:33:14 PM):  if i didn't have free will i'd have to choose option A or B
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:22 PM): well its true... u do
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:24 PM): OK here then
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:27 PM): ur stuck in a box
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:31 PM): locked in there, no way out
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:37 PM): thers a button A, and a button B
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:41 PM): u can choose iether to
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:48 PM): press a, press b, or press none
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:54 PM): wheres option c?
xShadowXSpecterx (11:33:56 PM): tell me what it is
Prodigy51288 (11:34:05 PM):  what happens when i press the button
xShadowXSpecterx (11:34:21 PM): A = baby gets tortured for lifetime
xShadowXSpecterx (11:34:26 PM): B = baby gets killed instantly and spared
xShadowXSpecterx (11:34:30 PM): if u dont press either
xShadowXSpecterx (11:34:39 PM): the baby gets tortured still
xShadowXSpecterx (11:34:43 PM): wheres choice C?
Prodigy51288 (11:34:49 PM):  break out of the box
xShadowXSpecterx (11:35:05 PM): ITS NOT AN OPTION
xShadowXSpecterx (11:35:11 PM): ITS 50 FEET THICK STEEL
Prodigy51288 (11:35:12 PM):  take the baby and go on with life because nobody knows that it will be tortured
Prodigy51288 (11:35:22 PM):  i'll break through the steel
xShadowXSpecterx (11:35:25 PM): .......
xShadowXSpecterx (11:35:30 PM): ok.. thats just nonsense
Prodigy51288 (11:35:55 PM):  your putting me in these bizarre situations and i'm answering with bizarre answers...what do you think about that buddy
xShadowXSpecterx (11:36:17 PM): whats the point of me asking u the question?
xShadowXSpecterx (11:36:26 PM): do u think
Prodigy51288 (11:36:30 PM):  why not ask yourself that
Prodigy51288 (11:36:35 PM):  your asking the question
xShadowXSpecterx (11:36:36 PM): I KNOW THE REASON
xShadowXSpecterx (11:36:42 PM): thats why im asking u obviously
xShadowXSpecterx (11:37:19 PM): i obviously know the reason im asking u
Prodigy51288 (11:37:32 PM):  or do you
xShadowXSpecterx (11:37:32 PM): seriously tho
xShadowXSpecterx (11:37:35 PM): uhh...
xShadowXSpecterx (11:37:39 PM): what do u mean "or do i?"
xShadowXSpecterx (11:37:46 PM): i obviously do.. its not just a random question with no point
Prodigy51288 (11:38:03 PM):  is it
xShadowXSpecterx (11:38:13 PM): why do u keep on answering a question with a question
xShadowXSpecterx (11:38:15 PM): tell me then
xShadowXSpecterx (11:38:19 PM): why do u think im askin u
xShadowXSpecterx (11:38:26 PM): make a statement, not a question response
Prodigy51288 (11:40:07 PM):  as I said..I just think you're blinded by what you think is fact...you tend to go with the crowd because it seems "logical"...well how do you know if the logical stuff is always right...you're just interested in the tangible stuff in life...but afraid of trusting the intangible...
xShadowXSpecterx (11:40:28 PM): no
xShadowXSpecterx (11:40:30 PM): seriously tho man
xShadowXSpecterx (11:40:38 PM): dont telll me
xShadowXSpecterx (11:40:43 PM): u think i need science to rely on as a hard fact
xShadowXSpecterx (11:40:53 PM): that i can't have faith cuz it might be wrong
xShadowXSpecterx (11:41:01 PM): that im afraid of the existence of god because he "might" not exist
xShadowXSpecterx (11:41:07 PM): that i can't believe things i can't see
xShadowXSpecterx (11:41:13 PM): am i right?

[kiwibonga]

You're asking a christian to choose whether or not to abort a kid on the 8th month... Did you really expect him to choose?

[shadow_specter]

  I did expect him to choose.. the arguement was basically meant for him to think...."is it better to let the baby live, knowing its life is gonna be a living hell (but give it the right to live), or to kill it now and spare it (against christianity, but the more "sane" thing to do, to most people)".  Does some magical being in the sky give some DIVINE unchanging law as to what's right or wrong?  How would you decide what to do in that type of situation?  Feedback anyone plz?

[Mydral]

Its not fair to give unrealistic and absurd questions just to proove that a religion or so is wrong.
If your happy yes its true that questions like that show that "good" is not always good and can be defined diferantly than common morals or the church defines it.

But does that discovery apply to this world? Nope... we will never be faced with a question like that in real life.

[shadow_specter]

  By no means do i think Christianity is WRONG, but I mean it was simply a question to see if someone would follow their conscious or religion.  Ok, here's another (less absurd, but still absurd) question.  This goes out to all of the Christians n such, I just want honest answers.  Let's say ur stranded in a desert, starving.  U come across some food, but it is forbidden by ur religion to eat.  Would you eat it to survive, or rather die holding up ur religious values?  Another question for people, I just wanna hear people's beliefs.   The ultimate question of humanity, is life so precious that one gives up morals to preserve life, or if supporting ones morals until death is more honorable.  Is life so sacred that one puts it above morals, or are morals simply artificial fabrications of the human mind, or perhaps a gift from God?  How do we decide?  

[Stookie]

I don't think Christians are banned from eating a certain kind of food. And if you're jewish, I doubt the food in the desert you'll come across is pork. Maybe some sort of jerky?

Anyways, it just breaks down to a persons morals and how serious they are about them. Do you bomb a another country to make it a democracy? To some people it's perfectly fine, to others it's absolutely insane. I don't think it has to do with religion.

This debate goes on forever, unanswerable. You're basically debating on whether morals should guide our decisions, or rational thought. And then you have the debate as to which morals are the right ones, which again is totally unanswerable. It's a 50/50, no-good-conclusion kind of a thing.

[kiwibonga]

To a devout muslim, drinking alcohol is more dangerous in the grand scheme of things than shoving his arm into a meat grinder.

It's not about respecting invisible rules, it's about not rotting in hell for all eternity. When someone believes in heaven and hell, they don't have a choice but to respect the rules their religion set forth, because it's the whole purpose of their life. You can't throw it all away after many years of "doing the good thing" ; your desert example would be a "final test" of sorts.


About the question of morals, yes, it's all created by humans (or god, if you're religious). Take something simple like marrying a cousin. There's plenty of countries where doing so is absolutely fine. It may be regarded as weird, but not morally wrong. In the US if you ever mention it, it's like it's the grossest thing you could ever do after bestiality, it's incest!

Ethics (and laws) are set forth by groups of people, who mutually agree on what is acceptable and what is not. That's pretty much all there is to it.

You may be wondering if there is such a thing as a universal law, some kind of set of rules that must be followed in the entire universe, both physical and non-physical. Maybe there is... I personally haven't found any evidence that it is the case, though...

[Voicebox]

As a person of no specific religious group, although I probably follow the path of spiritualism.

I personally, would eat the forbidden meat, or eat the forbidden apple, because for one good reason.   If I was to truly believe that my God is the forgiving god that the bible makes him out to be, then I would be forgiven for my sins anyway, and no retribution would be taken.

With regards to your first hypothesis in respect of the child.   That comes down to personal belief and how you feel about it.    Take Euthanasia for instance, do you believe in it or not?   We have no problems putting animals out of their misery, then why should we have a problem doing it to our loved ones.   Death is just the next step on our pathway of life, completely natural.

What I would say though, is that if we are here incarnate on this earth plane to learn lessons, then the life that that child will be born into would have been preordained for those lessons to be learned.   If you do not allow that life to continue, regardless of how bad it would be, you would be robbing the soul of its chance of those lessons.

Kiwibonga:   Is it not the laws of cause and effect that are our universal laws?

[Golden Light]

Well, I have two things to say regarding the question about an 8th month abortion.

1. We can't make someone change their beliefs, especially if they don't want to. It's not our job - no matter how frustrating or senseless their belief system appears. It's theirs to own and to live with. It's their truth - not ours.

2.  What seems like a right and wrong choice is neither. In the eyes of a creator - something so omnipotent that they can create a universe - there are only opportunities. These aren't bad or good opportunities but simply opportunities - choices. If we all end up in the same basic place, and the choices we make here determine our growth "up" there, then nothing is in the framework of an evil or good dichotomy...in a creator's eyes.

Bottom line - let your friend believe what they believe...respect it, regardless of how silly or absurd it may seem. It's their truth, not yours.

Golden Light

[shadow_specter]

  Thanks everyone for responding, and I agree 100% with most of you.  Everyone ultimately believes in something that's not tangible, ... a belief in god (which can't be proven absolutely) or the non-belief in god (can't be proven 100% either).  Something that's kinda sad is that on the website  http://brainisignorant.blogspot.com/2006/07/proof-1-try-praying.html , the person brings up many good arguements to counter the original person's "proofs" of whether God exists or not.  The author of the counter-refutes talks about how the original writer uses pop-Christian stereotypes and ignorance as a basis of his writing, which is supposedly how "no real Christian thinks".  The reality of the situation (at least to me, since I've talked to MANY Christians) is that most Christians DO appear to be ignorant (read the article to understand).  Like I was having a conversation with one of my friend's about religion, and she said "well... If i die and my religion is wrong, nothing happens.  If its right I go to heaven.  Its kinda a win win".... That's basically Pascal's Wager, a concept which the author refutes as an arguement that Christians shouldn't use, but is used by a Christian.  Anywayz, enough ranting n stuff, but Im extremely gracious that everyone took time to reply and give their perspective on it.  If anyone wants to expand on the whole concept, or what they would do in this type of situation, please please post =].  It would be nice to hear!