Questions about no-thought, breath awareness and trance?

[Jarrod]

I have a question about no-thought meditation.  What exactly is the aim?  I can do it and have no verbal thoughts, but there are still other subtler thoughts that are harder to get rid of and stay conscious.  Like a vague question you're just barely aware of; wondering how long you've been sitting here, or a slight annoyance at the bee buzzing around your head, not things that I really dwell on but they're still there.  Is the aim just to silence the verbal thoughts in your mind, or is it to stop all levels of thinking absolutely?

I also have a question about the trance state.  The first time I did the breath awareness meditation and counting on the out breaths I reached a point where something shifted, like everything got all big and quiet and it no longer took much effort to focus on just the breathing and the counting.  Was that what is called a trance?  Since that first time I haven't been able to reach it again.  I can feel myself getting close but I never shift over into that state.  I think it's because I'm expecting something now, and that expectation is somehow blocking me from getting there.  The first time I did it I wasn't expecting anything.  Do any experienced meditators have any insights or tips about the trance state?

[Xanth]

The aim is to remove the "surface thoughts".

So, you're sitting there, meditating... and you think, "Hmm, am I doing this right?", or perhaps, "My leg is itchy", or maybe "What should I have for dinner later".

Those are surface thoughts, and that's what you want to stop from happening.
THAT is the goal.  Well, ONE of many goals.  But in the meditation you're referring to, that is the goal.

[Jarrod]

Thanks Xanth.  The idea of surface thoughts is a little confusing though.  To me, thoughts seem to be on a fairly smooth spectrum; from very loud, obvious and verbal ones to very soft, barely noticeable ones.  So by surface thoughts do you mean just thoughts in the form of words or anything at the relatively loud end of the spectrum?

[Xanth]

I guess, to use your description, the vocal ones.

[personalreality]

I know what you mean when it comes to the "I", the observer that is still watching.  You get these tiny, almost insignificant thoughts acknowledging what you're doing.  I always wonder about those too.  But the idea is that if you remove the surface thoughts, the superficial thoughts, then deeper things will rise, things that may need your attention.  Over time, even those deeper issues will fade as you address them and ultimately you will float in 'nothingness', blissful nothingness.  (by over time i mean days, months, years of meditative practice, not length of meditation session)

[Jarrod]

That one time I mentioned when something shifted in my awareness felt kind of like floating in nothing.  The awareness of my physical body stated to fade but the state didn't last long enough for it to fade away completely.  Have any tips on how I can get back to that?

[Stookie]

There's another way to go about it as well. While it's possible to remove thoughts and impulses and merge into the "blissful nothingness" of consciousness PR mentions, you can also use a single thought or image. I suppose using imagery is easier to explain, but you can also merge with a conceptual thought, where you focus on nothing but that one thought and the feelings associated with it. If successful, it's no longer a subjective thing, but a part of your being. I think this is Frank's F4, as he described it as not just thinking about something, but being that thought. His method of attaining it... was never explained, now that I think about it. He just described it, and mentioned that descriptions don't work well for F4 as it's so far removed from physical being.

Anyways, the idea is to hone concentration to a single point, to where awareness (perception) merges with the chosen object of perception, whether a concept, image, breath, or silence.

[Jarrod]

Okay, so those are the two basic categories of meditation then right?  No-thought and...single thought or focus meditations.  Regarding the trance state, what exactly is meant by "trance"?  There is a definite point of sudden shifting.  I've felt that once.  Is that shift entering a trance, or does trance just refer to deep meditation and there's no real dividing line?

[Stookie]

When we say "trance" here, it's mostly meant the transition state between waking consciousness and non-physical consciousness, but there are more dictionary-type terms that can mean something else. As far as categories of meditation, there are probably an infinite, I suppose it just depends on what you're trying (or not trying) to accomplish. In this case we were just speaking about it in your terms of "no-thought & breath awareness".

[Jarrod]

When we say "trance" here, it's mostly meant the transition state between waking consciousness and non-physical consciousness

So after that transition is when I should try to astral project then right?  Hm, maybe that same transition happens with other techniques I've tried but I wasn't as aware as I am while meditating just for the purpose of meditating and not trying to project so I didn't notice it the same way. 

[Xanth]

So after that transition is when I should try to astral project then right?  Hm, maybe that same transition happens with other techniques I've tried but I wasn't as aware as I am while meditating just for the purpose of meditating and not trying to project so I didn't notice it the same way. 

Correct.
I found that reading this article: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/focus_10_mind_awakebody_asleep-t24783.0.html
Helped me the most to recognize when I was "there". 

[E]

For me the 'aim' of meditation is to "Be still and know that I am God"  All along the way to getting there you experience all kinds of different levels of awareness, apparitions, sounds, lights, various levels of thought, visions, etc.  You can go into any of these and experience them or you can Be still and know that I am God.  Depends on your motive.  I can go to a party and dance and have a great time.  I can experience a visual scene on the inner and have a great time.  I can be aware of some of the 'higher' thoughts because maybe I'm being told something important.  You observe but you don't get hooked.

The word trance is bandied about quite a bit.  Your wonderful experience of the shifting of consciousnes was a little trip into a higher vibrational awareness.  Would you call it a trance?  I dunno.  Call it whatever you want.  The importance is the experience of it and not its label.

Right or wrong, I associate a trance state with an altered state of consciousness in which you are no longer aware of what is going on.  As in, She went into a trance state and so and so spoke through her and she did not remember any of it.  Edgar Cayce went into what might be called a trance state to bring through knowledge from the Akashik plane.  He needed a secretary and a tape recorder.  So a trance state can be a valid and useful experience.  Again, it depends on your motivation and intention.

[Jarrod]

Thanks E.  It sounds like you're quite an experienced meditater.  I know the concept that we're all God and just don't realize it, but it feels too abstract to me so I think I'll wait until I experience the feeling to dwell on it.  In fact, I think I will avoid even thinking too much about any terms like "trance" until I have enough experience with them.  I think that thinking too much about something that I haven't learned how to do well yet just makes it harder to have the experience because my mind is getting in the way...I think too much. haha

[E]

Sounds good, Jarrod.  Maybe you could ponder or contemplate on the notion that rather than being abstract, it is extremely personal.  Maybe you could ponder on it being not so much a feeling but a Beingness.  At a certain level you are that already.  But you also want a full range of experiences.  So do I. 

[Jarrod]

My thinking is that I'll get there when I get there, and that I should keep my practice simple and my mind open and receptive.  I've often fallen into the trap of way over thinking things and being too deeply philosophical to the point where it gets in the way of actually doing things and learning from experience.   

[Stookie]

My thinking is that I'll get there when I get there, and that I should keep my practice simple and my mind open and receptive.  I've often fallen into the trap of way over thinking things and being too deeply philosophical to the point where it gets in the way of actually doing things and learning from experience.   

Great mind-set. You can't go wrong with simplicity and an open-mind.