Religon and Spirutal Development

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I do not think that religion and spirituality are the same. They can be intertwined or totally separate. For me religion was a stepping stone into spirituality, but religion is no longer part of my spirituality. You could say that I am agnostic as far as dieties go, for I just don't know about that aspect. But I do think there is something beyond the physical existence.

[Frank]

In my experience, mainstream religious beliefs simply get in the way. Perhaps the original message(s) of the world's major religions contained some good info that could give people a hand up, so to speak. And anyone privately following the basic teachings I'm sure would receive a benefit. But generally I feel all that kind of goodness has long gone.

I'm not sure if Buddhism is technically a religion, but from what I have read of the early teachings they certainly make a lot of sense. Though, like most things these days, original messages have long-since been lost in capitalist vested interests coupled with wave after wave of commercialism.

People who are highly developed in a religious sense would, I suppose, automatically make the assumption they were highly developed in a spiritual sense also. But I, for one, cannot see the connection. Personally, I see religious leaders throughout the ages as having played the basic role of middle-man who promises anyone who happens to come along a guaranteed place in "heaven" for a fee. But like all these kinds of dodgy offers, if it looks too good to be true then it most probably is.

Consider also the lower astral is packed full of religious people of all manner of description. They make their own heavens and hells, fight ongoing religious wars, and basically continue living the same kind of dogma-driven lifestyles they did while physical.

Regarding your "higher self" you cannot get any closer than you already are. The key is to realise that. Your higher self is that which is left after all the mental junk is cleared away. When I say mental junk, I mean all the ego-driven concepts; ideas, preoccupations, and such like. Allow all that to sink back and what is left is your higher self.

Getting closer to "god" now that I'm not sure about, i.e. in the sense of whether you are religious or not. To my mind the concept of "god" started out as a good idea, but then people got seriously carried away.

In my non-physical travels, I observe there is no such thing as religion in the higher realms. Well, not religion as we know it. People still have concepts which they believe in. But the bases upon which their ideas are formed are radically different.

In these places people just are. In the sense they have gone beyond religion. So I suppose religion, or at least the early basic religious teachings, maybe did serve as a means of progress. But, as I say, all that has long gone. Well, apart from little pockets of goodness here and there.

Yours,
Frank

[Rastus]

There are very few spiritual religions.  I found one, but it wasn't easy.  When the sermon is about 'duality' and 'co-creation', how many people really understood that?  How many are there because a service makes them feel better (and with the energy flying around, why shouldn't they?).  How many sermons ask questions instead of telling you what/how to think?

If your not allowed to question what your 'told', then you have to step back and evaluate your choice of religion.  But, Spitituality always comes from within (even if you have help).

[TheDarkApprentice]

Frank, I agree with you 100%.

Rastus, I hate how people don't question their religon at all. Even if they feel if their religon is the right one, they can still ask about some of the iffy questions about their religon. Some people just do what their told and don't think for themselves.

I think relgion is a guide for some people to get closer with their spirtuality. Most religons are a good guide for that. Some, not no much. In my mind, if you practice religon of any kind, just be open and listen to the other kinds of religons or sprituality that is out there. Ask your religous leaders tough questions. It is important

[The AlphaOmega]

I don't think religion plays any part in it.  I use to be athiest, but that void of believing in nothing hurt, so I searched as many paths on spirituality as I could (that's how I learned about OBE).  It wasn't until I actually found spirituality that I believed in God.  I use to go to church every sunday and believe fully in my religion before I was athiest.  Now, I still don't attend my church, and I'm closer to God then I've ever been, and as a result more spiritual.  Many of my friends say that I should go to church with them because I have more faith and spirituality then most people at their church do.  To me that just says that I SHOULDN'T start going to church with them.

[TheDarkApprentice]

quote:Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

I don't think religion plays any part in it.  I use to be athiest, but that void of believing in nothing hurt, so I searched as many paths on spirituality as I could (that's how I learned about OBE).  It wasn't until I actually found spirituality that I believed in God.  I use to go to church every sunday and believe fully in my religion before I was athiest.  Now, I still don't attend my church, and I'm closer to God then I've ever been, and as a result more spiritual.  Many of my friends say that I should go to church with them because I have more faith and spirituality then most people at their church do.  To me that just says that I SHOULDN'T start going to church with them.

Good point Alpha. I used to go to the Mormon church for 14 years and didn't feel anything at all. Now i feel a bit more spritual than before and I am not even sure if there is a god. I just want to stay agnostic for the rest of my life and I'll probaly be fine

[Kenneth]

Hello TheDarkApprentice,

I would agree with most of the other posters here, that Religion (when it starts out) is good. But when it changes from being a gathering of people with basically the same belief, to an "institution", I find it more of an obstacle actually.

I sort of "weed" out possible religions based on these short facts:

- Do they promise something IN THE FUTURE, like if you do "this and that", then you are home free in about 20 years time [] ... then they are (IMO) misguided. Your hope of salvation or redemption is in the NOW, and NOT in the future.

- If they start to talk about "Us against " or "THEY are wrong, and WE are right!!", then I'm out of there faster than you can say "Where did he go ??" .... promotion of "fronts", or talks in the direction of seperation / segregation among persons are not my cup of tea - and absolutely not any one I would place my future inner development with! []

- And ofcourse the "easy" on, if they talk about "You have to pay a small fee for this "blessing", and another amount for this and that...", Well, then I'm out of there as well.

- If they try to LIMIT my way of thinking - i.e. not allowing some ideas because they are not explicitly written in some book written a couple of thousands years ago, then they have to do without me too. I for one prefer that there are room for growth, errors and development in my beliefs []

- If they work with Pursuation rather than education, then I'm gone too [B)] ... Personally I don't need anyone telling me what to believe - but I am very thankfull when someone tells me what THEY believe, why they do it, and what it gives them personally []

There are probably a couple more, but these are shots from the hib as to why I have chosen NOT to actively join any religious cult, sekt or established religion. I find that all the religions I have come across unfortunately fits one of the above [xx(]

My "religion" is the phrase "If it harms no one, then do it!", with the exception to the harming thing being "Protect the weak from the strong", and I TRY to live by that, but it IS difficult []

Also what I do (and the motive behind it) WILL eventually come back to me again, in some form or another, so that is also one of my "golden rules", that I try to apply - even if it IS difficult []


Cheers from Denmark,

[daem0n]

religion is usually waste of time, from the reasons kenneth stated
however buddhism is not an religion, at least in the west (europe), and it does help to achieve mental balance

from what i see most advanced on "meta" path use religion as a stabiliser, to balance them mentally (but not as in institution, they have their own concepts and i doubt they go to church/whatever), whilst treating techniques as tools to achieve their goals

[TheDarkApprentice]

quote:Originally posted by Kenneth

Hello TheDarkApprentice,

I would agree with most of the other posters here, that Religion (when it starts out) is good. But when it changes from being a gathering of people with basically the same belief, to an "institution", I find it more of an obstacle actually.

I sort of "weed" out possible religions based on these short facts:

- Do they promise something IN THE FUTURE, like if you do "this and that", then you are home free in about 20 years time [] ... then they are (IMO) misguided. Your hope of salvation or redemption is in the NOW, and NOT in the future.

- If they start to talk about "Us against " or "THEY are wrong, and WE are right!!", then I'm out of there faster than you can say "Where did he go ??" .... promotion of "fronts", or talks in the direction of seperation / segregation among persons are not my cup of tea - and absolutely not any one I would place my future inner development with! []

- And ofcourse the "easy" on, if they talk about "You have to pay a small fee for this "blessing", and another amount for this and that...", Well, then I'm out of there as well.

- If they try to LIMIT my way of thinking - i.e. not allowing some ideas because they are not explicitly written in some book written a couple of thousands years ago, then they have to do without me too. I for one prefer that there are room for growth, errors and development in my beliefs []

- If they work with Pursuation rather than education, then I'm gone too [B)] ... Personally I don't need anyone telling me what to believe - but I am very thankfull when someone tells me what THEY believe, why they do it, and what it gives them personally []

There are probably a couple more, but these are shots from the hib as to why I have chosen NOT to actively join any religious cult, sekt or established religion. I find that all the religions I have come across unfortunately fits one of the above [xx(]

My "religion" is the phrase "If it harms no one, then do it!", with the exception to the harming thing being "Protect the weak from the strong", and I TRY to live by that, but it IS difficult []

Also what I do (and the motive behind it) WILL eventually come back to me again, in some form or another, so that is also one of my "golden rules", that I try to apply - even if it IS difficult []


Cheers from Denmark,

If there any religon that portrays undering your relgion "rules" that you feel is a good religon Kenneth?

I sure haven't seen any.

[TheDarkApprentice]

Do you have to be religous to obtain high spritual development?

I am agnostic and don't belive in a true religon. But most people who talk about being highly developed spiritual wise, they always have some religon in their statement.

Well I don't think that you need to be religous to get closer with your higher self and "god".

What does everyone else think?

[frankietrees]

Howdy Family,

Seems to me that way back when (72+/-?) when I actually turned to a college course on the philosophy of religion, Cal Greer , my prof , quoted a poem by someone that talked about every one having a god shaped blank...
Cal also told me that the a good test for religion was to ask two questions: Does it leave anyone out? and Does it cost anything. Two litmus tests that I still use ...
I have also heard it said that religion is for those who are afraid to go to hell, and spirituality is for those who have been there! I do so like that distinction.
The word agnostic was coined by Aldous Huxley Sr. During his heyday, the Gnostics were a very popular Spiritual Group. The root is from the Greek word ,gnosis; which means imparted knowledge. Now Aldous said to himself, Self.. seeing as no one has ever passed any secret knowledge to me, and because the prefix "a' means against or contra, I guess I can call my self an AGnostic.... or so the story goes.

[Kenneth]

Hello TheDarkApprentice,

Nope, neither have I   ....

In Denmark we have what is called en "folkekirke", which are the Official State Religion, that is a Lutheranian-Christian church, and mostly undertakes Baptisms, confirmation, marriages and funerals. The seats are mostly empty there every Sunday when they have Mass, but it is there, and most of the population of Denmark are members, but don't use it   . I am a member too, but I don't think I have been to church since my confirmation at about 14... (I am 33 by now) ....

I went to a Catholic school, and there were also Jews in my class. It was very rare, that it influenced in our everyday life, but it gave a (IMHO) good understanding of other persons choices with regard to religions.

I have taken bits and pieces from many different religions - ie. I believe in reincarnation, but I don't believe I will come back as a rat if I don't "behave" properly in this life   ....

I have used the Bible as a reference for much of my life - not LITERALLY by applying every sentence and word, but more in the sense of a Fable. (The stories with Animals, that portrait a difficult life-situation... I have used them a lot too!!). So I try to look "through" the different stories, and grasp their inner meaning, or their "core", and use that instead of the DIRECT words. (A Danish author Hans Christian Andersen wrote fairy tales that on the surface were children's stories, but if you look through them, you will find they often reveal a very deep and often "dark" truth - this is the same way I see the Bible, and the stories there).

Oh - I almost forgot - I also tend to shy Religions, where they use many difficult words. I am an Programs Developer by trade, and I have seen my share of Absolutely NOTHING blown up to a whole lot by the use of fancy words, abbreviations etc. So - a religion, where they haven't been able to get their message across without "masking" it in difficult words, sentences, different levels etc. is not my cup of tee either  

So what do I believe in then ? ...

Well, my everyday life is "ruled"  by nature, plain and simple. I live with gravitation, with feeling tired when it is dark, and fresh when it is light. (Mostly *S*) ... I am a part of nature, and I have rarely seen Nature lie   ..... I am not pagan, as they have some rituals etc. that I can't seem to find myself in.

I believe, that NOTHING in nature goes to waste, or are "lost" That means, that everything I do, sense, feel and think will eventually come back to me again. If not today, then tomorrow  

I believe, that Life is eternal and blissful and peaceful and is love .... but I also believe, that our Life-situations most often are a pain-in-the-*** *LOL* .... And my "purpose" is to learn to deal with HOW these situations influence me. I don't think, there are any "right or wrong" answers there - but I find, that if I tend to react the same way in the same type of situations, they WILL return to me, until I finally "understand" what it is in it's core, and can let it go.

I know, that I contain dark feelings and thoughts, but it is only if I DON'T acknowledge them or try to suppress them, that they become dangerous to me and other people around me!! ... I find, that if I Imagine something, my subconscious often "supplies" me with the opposite (and often dark) thought / feeling instantly - and being aware of BOTH sets of feelings, thoughts etc., and then CHOOSE consciously between them is (for me) much of what life is about...

I believe, that I have a physical body, en energetic body, an emotional body, and a mind body - and that none of these will be of any good to me, if I don't continuously work WITH them, in order to understand my self better and better.

The words of FrankieTrees about: "religion is for those who are afraid to go to hell, and spirituality is for those who have been there!" fits me perfectly .... Most of my life (since I was 2 I recently found out) I have lived with an Active Kundalini (Kundalini in lack of better word, unfortunately), and that has a very nasty habit of creating a little "personal" hell for those unfortunate / fortunate enough to have experienced this  

So, no - I have not found a "religion" that fits me    ... I am too twisted a form to fit into those nice squares and circles, that religions mostly are  

Cheers from Denmark!

[TheDarkApprentice]

Hello TheDarkApprentice,

Nope, neither have I   ....

In Denmark we have what is called en "folkekirke", which are the Official State Religion, that is a Lutheranian-Christian church, and mostly undertakes Baptisms, confirmation, marriages and funerals. The seats are mostly empty there every Sunday when they have Mass, but it is there, and most of the population of Denmark are members, but don't use it   . I am a member too, but I don't think I have been to church since my confirmation at about 14... (I am 33 by now) ....

I went to a Catholic school, and there were also Jews in my class. It was very rare, that it influenced in our everyday life, but it gave a (IMHO) good understanding of other persons choices with regard to religions.

I have taken bits and pieces from many different religions - ie. I believe in reincarnation, but I don't believe I will come back as a rat if I don't "behave" properly in this life   ....

I have used the Bible as a reference for much of my life - not LITERALLY by applying every sentence and word, but more in the sense of a Fable. (The stories with Animals, that portrait a difficult life-situation... I have used them a lot too!!). So I try to look "through" the different stories, and grasp their inner meaning, or their "core", and use that instead of the DIRECT words. (A Danish author Hans Christian Andersen wrote fairy tales that on the surface were children's stories, but if you look through them, you will find they often reveal a very deep and often "dark" truth - this is the same way I see the Bible, and the stories there).

Oh - I almost forgot - I also tend to shy Religions, where they use many difficult words. I am an Programs Developer by trade, and I have seen my share of Absolutely NOTHING blown up to a whole lot by the use of fancy words, abbreviations etc. So - a religion, where they haven't been able to get their message across without "masking" it in difficult words, sentences, different levels etc. is not my cup of tee either  

So what do I believe in then ? ...

Well, my everyday life is "ruled"  by nature, plain and simple. I live with gravitation, with feeling tired when it is dark, and fresh when it is light. (Mostly *S*) ... I am a part of nature, and I have rarely seen Nature lie   ..... I am not pagan, as they have some rituals etc. that I can't seem to find myself in.

I believe, that NOTHING in nature goes to waste, or are "lost" That means, that everything I do, sense, feel and think will eventually come back to me again. If not today, then tomorrow  

I believe, that Life is eternal and blissful and peaceful and is love .... but I also believe, that our Life-situations most often are a pain-in-the-*** *LOL* .... And my "purpose" is to learn to deal with HOW these situations influence me. I don't think, there are any "right or wrong" answers there - but I find, that if I tend to react the same way in the same type of situations, they WILL return to me, until I finally "understand" what it is in it's core, and can let it go.

I know, that I contain dark feelings and thoughts, but it is only if I DON'T acknowledge them or try to suppress them, that they become dangerous to me and other people around me!! ... I find, that if I Imagine something, my subconscious often "supplies" me with the opposite (and often dark) thought / feeling instantly - and being aware of BOTH sets of feelings, thoughts etc., and then CHOOSE consciously between them is (for me) much of what life is about...

I believe, that I have a physical body, en energetic body, an emotional body, and a mind body - and that none of these will be of any good to me, if I don't continuously work WITH them, in order to understand my self better and better.

The words of FrankieTrees about: "religion is for those who are afraid to go to hell, and spirituality is for those who have been there!" fits me perfectly .... Most of my life (since I was 2 I recently found out) I have lived with an Active Kundalini (Kundalini in lack of better word, unfortunately), and that has a very nasty habit of creating a little "personal" hell for those unfortunate / fortunate enough to have experienced this  

So, no - I have not found a "religion" that fits me    ... I am too twisted a form to fit into those nice squares and circles, that religions mostly are  

Cheers from Denmark!

Very well put. Even if I ever found a religon which I 100% extremly doubt, I wouldnt fit it at all either.

I have random dark thoughts or any thoughts pop in my mind. It's hard to tell if its you or your sub-concious. But part of has to be you as your subconcious is part of you. But I don't get opposite thoughts often. If i have a good thought it usually gets better, sometimes worse. A bad thought, then it usally gets worse