...
Lighthouse,
your questions:
quote:
1. Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?
I never thought of the two being different. It seems that one could see chaste as a discriminating attitude.This being whether the person is sexually active or not. Celibate is the choice of no sexual activity whether it's first choice or not.
Asexual is a good word for both. This is a term I always described for myself. Asexuality has been present in various phases in my life, not necessarily a permanent state. I had a relationship end because I entered this phase. My love and friend did not understand. He took it personally. He ran off and replaced me in no time flat. I was okay with that. I learned what he was made of. To each his/her own. He went on to a fairly good relationship, although one I wouldn't have wanted. This relationship eventually ended for him. I still have mine going after all this time (me and God). Although a good man, he had to have some kind of assurance in the form of a continuous sexual relationship.
quote:
2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality? Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?
There may be a conflict between the two. But I believe it to be misunderstanding spirituality, more than sexual activity getting in the way. It seems that Scott Peck depicts it well.Imo, if sexuality is in the way of a relationship, it probably is. This is a good time to do something about it. In my case of the relationship I mentioned, althought thought by the other party as manipulatory, it was not. I did get a clean house out of the deal, spiritually speaking [:)]. This is more valuble than the physical relationship lost. I didn't expect my physical relationship to end as it did.
Having learned some things along the way. I think spiritual energy is not the same has physical sex.The two are easily confused with each other. I don't think the physical man can do anything in the spiritual sense unless he has an outer influence working within him. I would go as far to say, a possession must take place.
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3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate?
I think celibacy finds the Holy one. If one has to seek it, that's another path, though just as good.
I have a funny joke in my files somewhere on this. I hope I can find it.
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Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?
I can't speak for those tempted by these things. Fortunately, I've never been attracted to physical things of this nature.
I like the three things runola has mentioned. These things are most likely true imo too.A male's experience probably varies from a female's.
quote:
1. Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?
Being chaste would be being mindful of the reasons, motives and the intent of one's sexuality. Being celibate is to deny one's sexuality.
quote:
2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality? Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?
No conflict. Spirituality is expresing your part of the divine whole. If you feel being sexual is who you are then denying that would go against your Self and that in turn would fly right in the face of the divine.
There is a reason why there are men and women and why they are atracted to each pother in various combinations.
If on theother hand you feel and expressing sexuality is not expressing your Self then by all means abstainand be celibate.
But to claim than either choice is the one and only way seems arrogant in the extreme to me.
quote:
3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate? Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?
One part in some cases may be tradition, especially among the christians. But I'd describe their choice as being akin to choosing between a sailboat and a speedboat. They have chosen to prefer one over the other (abstaining vs. sexuality) but that doesn't mean it's anything their than ther choice and an expression of their Self.
Another way to view the issue is to understand that they have shed the craving of sexuality and aren't bothered by it or the lack thereof and have chosen the simpler lifestyle (for them).
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I myself feel much confusion over sexuality. Not in the sense that i don't know what i prefer, i do, but the over PURPOSE in the grand scheme of things. Sex is such a powerful powerful energetic force that it must serve multiple purposes, certainly above and beyond procreation. And because God created sex and gave it to us to enjoy, i do think he's okay with it. As far as abuse of sex and the problems it causes, overindulgence could be to blame. Overindulging in anything is a form of addiction and negs are attracted/the cause.
I've been reading a lot about Sex Magic, not to practice it but to understand it's use through the centuries. Well, i don't understand, it just generates more questions i don't have good answers to.
Jouni,
I can always count on you to bring me back to my true nature [:D]. I just finished the Razors Edge this past week and in it, the main character (It is based on a true story of a man) chose not to engage in sexual activity because he felt it would further his understanding of his God nature.
I think I have grown a lot over the past couple of years with regards to my own sexuality... sort of an awakening. I used to see sex as something people did... didn't really understand the big deal of it all. I gained temporary pleasure, but nothing sustaining. I have recently, however, yearned for something more in my relationships and in this, I have a deeper understanding of my own sexual nature. I would now classify myself as a sexual dynamo of sorts,(not promiscuous, more of a yearning to experience the true power that can be found within the sexual experience with one who is truly beloved to me) however, I am also deeply spiritual so this is the motive behind my posing the question.
(AAAh this is so therapudic for me)
I now see my sexuality as part of my spirituality and crave something more. I yearn for a deep feeling of satisfaction in both the sexual aspects of my relationships and the spiritual aspects, a connection that can nurture both sides of my nature.
Hence, I posed the questions... to be chaste then, I suppose it would be as Jouni stated, "to be mindful of ones motives." This is why Peck states that many marital sexual encounters are not chaste and indeed why some extra-marital and pre-marital encounters could fit that criteria.
Kerri
There is an intimate connection between sexuality and spirituality that i haven't figured out yet. But someone can be a porn star their whole life and never come close to figuring it out, so it is not just the act but the understanding behind the act. I read that some older theories portrayed angels as very sexual, mating with each other and humans. I'm pretty much at the point where i believe if the human mind can imagine it, it can happen.
Narfellus: I think sex is what you make it mean. It can be about love, the simple need for physical attention, satisfaction of a particular desire, income, etc. etc. etc. :) I think we label what sex is and what sex isn't by our beliefs and prior experiences.
For me sexuality is still a mystery. I am in a relationship and have an active sexuallife. For me though, sex seems to be more of an animal instinct then anything else. I just think about walking in town on a summers day (like today) and seeing al the beautifull girls everywhere.. I have to confess that I do feel a storng sexual desire when I see them. This might sound shallow, but I think that this actually is the normal reaction for many men. Sex in a relationship can be differnt sometimes, sometimes it can be the ultimate union with the person one loves, and othertimes it can be just sex...
And after al, the sexdrive is the reason that the race survives, so it is neither starnge nor bad. But sex can probably be used as a spiritual tool, if it used in the right way. It can be an extention of love, and thet should be considered as a spiritual thing I guess.
yoga means union. Yoga can be experienced with al things though..
You can feel a union with nature, with al living..
Personally I can have a strong craving for sex sometimes, and after having pleased the craving I can feel a bit empty.. afterwards I never understand how it could seem so important.. Perhaps those times it has been pure repitle-brain instinct.
My own sex life has not been the greatest, but i feel that has been so Higher Powers could focus my attention elsewhere. Now, i wouldn't have done it that way were it my conscious choice, but my higher self knows what's better for me so i try not to argue. Consequently, i've been given some insights into sexuality while going through long celibate stretches. I'm actually an extremely sensual and sexual person, and the union of man and woman and the exchange of energy is powerful. But...i still have questions. Procreasion is NOT the only reason for sex. Fear and control is not the use of sex. Our society is so so so wrong about its portrayal of sex that children are confused from day one, and that leads to confused adults.
The good news is that i've read the best sex guides on earth (Guide to Gettin is On; sounds dumb, but check it out, great book) and seen my share of the human body, so i've learned the detailed ins and outs of female and male anatomy, response and titilation in just about every single format imaginable, even old druidic sex magic. Now THAT is interesting stuff, channeling the power of procreation into spells. It's like playing a piano left and right handed; you have to learn to seperate the orgasm from the spell and send them off at the same time. Difficult but possible.
Ultimately i'm glad to have had these chances to learn, but i need more practice...[}:)]
This is my idea of the perfect sexual experience: Taken from www.tantra.com. I just wish my partner and I were of the same spiritual mindset because this is something I really want to explore. [:D]
The Art of Tantric Sex
TANTRIC SEX is meditative, spontaneous and intimate lovemaking Through it you learn to prolong the act of making love and to channel, rather than dissipate. potent orgasmic energies moving through you, thereby raising the level of your consciousness. Tantra transports your sexuality from the plane of doing to the place of being. There is no goal in Tantric sex, only the present moment of perfect and harmonious union. Tantra teaches you to revere your sexual partner and to transform the act of sex into a sacrament of love.
Tantra teaches that lovemaking between a man and woman, when entered into with awareness, is a gateway to both sexual and spiritual ecstasy. In India, traditional Tantrikas spent many years under the guidance of a spiritual teacher and engaged in elaborate yogic rituals to purify and master the body and mind. These practices were intended to awaken the powerful psychic energies through which the adept could enter into higher states of consciousness When a disciple was deemed ready he or she partook in sexual rites with a partner.
Through the sacred act of love, they sought to merge the dual nature of their sexuality into an ecstatic union. Through this came the harmonization of their own internal masculine and feminine polarities and a realization of the blissful nature of the Self.
Kerri
yes, Lighthouse, i would like to try tantra too. My current partner is not...ambitious in any way and our sex life falters. My own fault though, i've often let fear control my actions and decisions. At least i can recognize and work toward removing the blocks. I've heard of people having sex for 8 hours or more, and multiple male orgasms. Like anything i imagine it takes practice (and a free weekend with a healthy mate!)
Hi All,
How can there be conflict between spirituality and sexuality ? We are spiritual beings incarnate in human flesh, we chose this life with all it's characteristics, so we accepted that we would have a sexual nature. If we as Souls had no problem with that then there cannot be any conflict between the two.
What conflict there has been historically must have been man-made, based on out-moded belief systems supplied by man-made religions. In which case any conflict between the two was created as a control mechanism.
During the rise of christianity (in it's more bloodthirsty times) the church in Rome wanted to stop people following the ancient ways and performing ritual sex in the fields and sacred places. What better way than to inform the masses that such activity was Satan's doing, in which case it supported the horrendous attitude that women were inherently evil, so therefore having sex with one was also evil. Which is one reason why it was thought we were all Sinners. Strangely enough though, having sex was okay with 'God' if it was to make babies... two rules, more control.
Celibacy has been chosen by 'holy people' as a means to focus attention on their task of growing in spiritual understanding.. which is very unbalanced in view of the fact that we are spiritual beings. I say this because being incarnate as a human means to be sexual in nature and to remove ourselves from the world in this way is as unbalanced as the person who wants as much sex as possible. So how can balance be obtained if we remove ourselves from human experience ? All things in moderation is one of the keys to balancing our human and spiritual nature, to bridge the void between the two.
You do not need to learn Tantra in order to have the complete sexual oneness that it's adherents claim. After all, it is based on a man-made belief system. All it takes is for the partners to not focus on their own satisfaction and desires, which we all do, and choose instead to want their partner to be pleasured before themselves. In taking the time to go slowly both man and woman can have multiple orgasms without the usual erectile dysfunction that happens after ejaculation. If your attention is focused on your partners satisfaction then you will not have that little limp problem.
According to my dictionary Chaste means to be pure and to have not had any sexual experience, so it means to be a Virgin. Where-as Celibacy is a choice to not partake of your human-sexual nature in order to focus you attention on your growth. But, we grow anyway, and even more-so through our human experiences, which must include sexual activity. No point in denying yourself the experiences.
Love Always. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin
Hi All,
How can there be conflict between spirituality and sexuality ? We are spiritual beings incarnate in human flesh, we chose this life with all it's characteristics, so we accepted that we would have a sexual nature. If we as Souls had no problem with that then there cannot be any conflict between the two.
What conflict there has been historically must have been man-made, based on out-moded belief systems supplied by man-made religions. In which case any conflict between the two was created as a control mechanism.
DAMN!! You make so much sense! [;)] EXACTLY!!! Thanks Tayesin... damn organized religions... How many layers does one have to peel before reaching the truth???
(http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/fragend/confused-smiley-012.gif)
Kerri
Hello Kerri,
Regarding your original post:
quote:
Originally posted by Lighthouse
In it, Peck states that in many fundamentalist viewpoints, sex is the devil or evil trying to tempt us to be lustful and sinful (a belief that neither myself nor Peck subscribe to) and that God would not be a sexual being. Some of these groups would purport that God is a-sexual and living a spiritual life in the truest sense means denying the yearnings of the flesh (a belief that many organized religions have adopted.)
Unfortunately, those fundamentalists are partially right, but for wrong reasons because they possess wrong understanding.
Sex is not the devil - in just about any sense of that sentence. That's just absurd, though I do understand how they came up with that saying. Sex can and most often is lustful, and how it may be sinful is a subject that would require many more paragraphs to explain, so I shall abstain in this regard.
You see when it comes to copulation, eating and sleeping, for most of us, there is very little difference between being human or animal. This is because those acts are instinctual and humans often act in the same way as animals. Getting back to the sex part, animals do not know love or spirituality, they are purely instinctive. Lust is mainly about fulfilling a physical sexual urge - an instinct. We are born with that and we all have such instincts. Is it wrong? It is not a question of being wrong or right. Things are not so black and white and definitive. It is right or wrong depending on our spiritual level of evolution, our level of intellect and understanding of things esoteric pertaining to sexuality. A baby who takes the toy of another baby is less wrong than a thief who knows that stealing is wrong and does it anyway - although in essence they both really performed the same act. So how wrong it may be is relevant to our level of understanding and in essence, level of evolvement as a human being.
There does exist a hierarchy of beings (minerals, plants, animals, humans, elementals, deities, angels, demons, etc), and yes they all influence us (whether we can see them or not), but for the most part it is not the "devil" that tempts us. Who can say they have truly seen the devil? I think if we ever met such a demon, we would not be around to talk about it. LOL! It is our own basic and underdeveloped human side that makes us act instinctual or lustful. By being less human (using less intellect, less will power, being less loving etc) we are thus more animalistic. Falling into temptation can to some extent be described as simply lacking sufficient will power, which is a quality of being less human.
If you study Satanism even at a very basic level you will understand that the core of their belief system is to participate in as many pleasurable acts as possible - they worship themselves. In essence, what they really seek is happiness like every other human being who is not a Satanist, but their method of acquiring happiness is sadly very distorted because instead of elevating themselves to become more human and to eventually experience salvation/enlightenment aka " eternal bliss/paradise", they mistakenly think that by becoming more animalistic and fulfilling their every instinct (and thus falling to every temptation) will bring them pleasure and thus happiness... and it does, but its only the very temporary kind. No physical pleasure is eternal! So they ride waves of poor types of happiness (e.g. lustful sex), to then suffering afterwards because it is physically impossible to have lustful sex continuously into eternity. The above explains at a basic level the reason the devil is associated with the term "the beast" and why Christ's teachings urge us to resist temptation.
As far as God goes, and that is even a far lengthier subject; let me just say that anybody who thinks they can put into words what God is, is only an ignorant fool. So to claim god is sexual or a-sexual or whatever, is just complete non-sense.
So often we see the books of self-proclaimed spiritual people talking about God, and attempting to define it... it is rather silly endeavour in my mind. The highest goal of any of the major religions is to become one with "God", because amongst many other reasons, the only way to TRULY know something is to be that something! To be one with it. When we observe things externally we can only describe subjectively what that something is. For example, if I attempt to describe an apple, I can say it is red, round, weighs about 1/4 lbs, etc. I can go on for a while describing various physical characteristics of it, but could I possibly really describe it to such an extent that it would encompass everything that the apple truly is ?? No! Of course not. I could not possibly know what it tastes like for example by simply observing it externally. And so how some so called spiritual people (e.g. Mr. Peck) think they can accurately describe "God" when they haven't even truly "seen it" or become One with it (the definition of enlightenment), well to me they are only talking about things they do not truly know! So, please let us use a little rationality! :)
quote:
Peck goes on to disagree with the notion that sexuality and spirituality are in conflict with one another... Stating that the physical union of flesh is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved, also the quest for spiritual enlightenment is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved. He sees no conflict. He then goes on to say that sex "screws things up" and that we often confuse the object of our sexual yearning for God and this is what makes sex a "problem" (he states that we all have problems with sex: Married people, single people, straight people, gay people, men, women and even Scott Peck.)
"Sexuality and spirituality are in conflict with another" is such a vague and broad statement that it is almost pointless to try to discuss it, but I will take a quick shot at it here.
When sex is lustful, yes it very much is in conflict with spiritual growth because as I've already explained to be lustful is to be animalistic and when we are being animalistic we are not being more human and ascending toward the divine aspects of ourselves, instead we are descending in the opposite direction. On the other hand, sex when performed in certain ways (and there are several of these...and, no I'm not talking about 101 kama sutra positions here..heh), can indeed help the human being ascend spiritually, so in that sense no it is not in conflict with spirituality.
The physical union of flesh has nothing to do with a desire to know and unite with the Beloved. Physical union of the flesh is an instinctive behaviour with a subconscious purpose of reproduction of the species. That said, the second statement is mostly accurate regarding enlightenment and uniting with the beloved, assuming beloved means "God".
"sexual yearning for God"? Where does this guy come up with this stuff? How many people do you know (including yourself) that when having sex with another human being has had the thought and "yearning" to really be having sex with God?!
quote:
Then he goes on to state that if indeed we are made in Gods image, perhaps God is a sexual being, passionate, sexual, spiritual and sensual. I have heard and read of experiencing the Divine in a truly passionate, even erotic encounter. Many saints have written poetry on this as well as had written accounts of experiencing true passion through their Beloved Lord, God.
The statement that we are made in God's image has nothing to do with physical or physiological aspects of ourselves. It does not take too intellectual a human to reach that conclusion. We are *NOT* all the same physically. Some of us are born black, some white, others grow to be 4 feet tall, others 7 feet tall, some of us weight a mere 80lbs, others 500! So because we are not all identical twins, or even close to that, obviously that statement has nothing to do with physical aspects of being human. That statement, like most others in the bible should not be interpreted at the surface level, because to do so is to completely misunderstand it. The simplest of spiritual people have this grand idea that God is this large fatherly figure with long white beard sitting on a thrown up in heaven overlooking Earth. Please, let us leave such irrational imaginings to children's cartoons. The bible makes several refernces of god as an eternal flame of the brightest light. We are but individual sparks from that flame, and so in that symbolic sense yes we are made in its image. Our spirits are those sparks. But I dare not go on, because to do so would be to fall into the same trap as the rest of the spiritual book writers who claim to understand God. *grin*
quote:
1. Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?
I think others have adequately answered this one already.
quote:
2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality? Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?
I've touched on this already to some extent. I will only add that sexuality in practically all its forms is a necessary thing. Physical sex is necessary for the reproduction of the species. The reproduction of the species serves the purpose of humans to incarnate and eventually work on their spiritual selves. Humans that are more spiritually evolved will know how to use sex to ascend even further spiritually. These may indulge in practices which have nothing to do with the reproduction of the species and which do not necessarily require another human being. This is because in part the ultimate goal of humans (whether they are aware of it or not) is to unity with God, and not another human being. A mere observation of the inter-human sexual act reveals to us symbolically that two bodies try to merge into one, but never, ever, do they succeed. In the end they both end up two separate entities as they began and the goal is not accomplished. Their "other half" is not another imperfect human, but instead through certain spiritual practices which require the perfection of the Self allows them to come closer and closer to uniting with their true other half often referred to as the higher-self, God - the perfected half. Like oil(imperfect) on water(perfect), the two can not merge together, but when perfection is merged with perfection, a single unity of perfection is possible.
This is why Christ said to "know thyself", because to do so is to know who you are (good and bad) and by identifying your faults and imperfections you are then in a good position to begin to do the hard work of transforming those so that you become a more perfect human whose pureness reflects and *IS* the image of God!
quote:
3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate? Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?
Celibacy is a greatly misunderstood subject in our spiritually poor western society. Catholic priests who are supposedly celibate often end up masturbating to release that sexual tension (like most normal men do, or having sex but just not having it known publicly), or if they really are capable of remaining celibate for long periods of time (many months or years) they usually end up either committing horrific sexual acts (e.g. molesting children), and often developing severe prostate problems due to inactivity of their sexual organs. The reason for this is because they, once again, have misunderstood the holy teachings because they are merely interpreting symbolic teachings word for word at the surface level.
Abstaining from sex does not make a human more holy! Such is an act of asceticism which is an act of extremism, and extreme acts lead to extreme consequences! If we abuse our bodies (by either having too much sex, or abstaining from it all together), we shall suffer the consequences! Balance is the key.
That said, it is entirely possible to not engage in the physical sexual act, and be celibate in the truly intended way of the various scriptures and avoid all problems stated above (re: priests). The key to this is to learn how to TRANSFORM the sexual energy we accumulate, into spiritual energy. Such practices are the ones taught in a certain type of Yoga, they are the same practices of Taoist sexology, the same practices of *correct* Sexual Alchemy .
The transformation of base metals into gold is NOT (yet again to be interpreted literally) a physical practice aiming to make one monetarily rich, it is however the internal practice of transforming the inner self from an imperfect being to something spiritually pure, reflecting light and of high value (like gold). Such is a compilation of various types of practices, one of which is the transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy. To give a clue, it is related with moving the sexual energy from the sex organs up through the various chakras and storing it in certain energy centres in the bioplasmic part of the human body which then results in the increase of one's vitality, intellect, health and after prolonged practice, increase in spiritual maturity.
*Choosing* to be celibate, has often little to do with choice, but rather blindly obliging to doctrines whose original intent has been distorted and is grossly misunderstood. Celibacy without proper transformation of the sexual energy does not enhance passion for the Divine, but rather increases only passion in the erotic sense. Harnessing passion is not sufficient. Transformation of sexual energies is however absolutely necessary!
It is not that they are merely distracted by their longings because (in the male body at least) the accumulation of sexual energy by being celibate can grow to such an extent that even the slightest hint of anything sexy (like mere bare skin of any part of the body) can become the biggest distraction leading to a physical sexual act (whether sex with a partner or masturbation).
And btw, such men are very often only "holy" in the eyes of other ignorant men and they are bestowed such titles either by organizational election (e.g. Christian Church) or by other not so holy men (e.g. government officials). Holiness is not something that is bestowed upon man by another man, and it is something one works upon and becomes and to which there is little point in trying to quantify externally... but that's a subject for a whole other post ;)
Take good care,
Adept of Light
Hmm. Had a short celibacy and must say that it helped
_VERY_ much. Literally felt afterwards like my energy stores
had been filled to the maximum.
I think it would be very healthy for many to have 2-3 weeks
of complete celibacy as it really changes your viewpoint of
the whole thing. And no you do not get more horny or an intensified sexual drive. It is quite the opposite, it actually
reduces.
As someone said "the choice have to come from the spirit
and not the ego" [|)]
Tayesin, that was awesome! Thanks. I suppose i understood inherently what you said about Spirit choosing a sexual existense, and all things in moderation, but it helps to have someone with wise words put it into context again. I myself really really feel that my higher self choose to delay my experiences to concentrate my spiritual growth in other directions. But you're right, we are extremely sexual beings, and it is beautful and wonderful and exciting. And having TOO much sex is probably just as bad a celibacy. Moderation of the mind/body/spirit is a goal on earth, and lesson to learn to harmonzie with our higher selves.
Adept of Light,
Can I say that the perception of the Higher-Self as being God is a bit of a misnomer really. The Great and powerful Beings that each of us are, is our Higher-Self, which in turn is a diversified portion of the Creative Awareness (god), so while the identification is apt, it is not so in the strictest sense. I did like your point about us being little parts of the Flame/Light, just we are not so little, only our perceptions and brainwashing have us think that way.
Also, I have to say this.... the concept of us being imperfect is very much religious dogma and not at all factual in the bigger picture. It is something that was used to disempower the masses for control. Unfortunately it is still prevalent in christian circles today.
The term 'made in god's image' actually comes from the Sumerian's recorded history of the beings who created the physical human form. They were called Annunaki and created many 'beasts' before perfecting their understanding of DNA and creating a prototype worker, which worked well but was unable to think in anything other than a linear fashion.. much like Neanderthal. Since this wasn't what they wanted they went back to the drawing board and used DNA from Homo Erectus (upright walking man)and themselves to create the prototype they called the Adamma. Which is where the name Adam comes from.
The Sumerian texts predate all religious texts by thousands of years, and it was in Sumer that the fledgling Hebrews came to have their 'book of genesis'( before going to Egypt) .. which is a highly edited version of the Sumerian texts. Actually, the Sumerian Texts were written in 5,200 bce on the urging of the Annunaki themselves, which also goes to explain why so many of the ancient mythologies are so very similar, since they brought scribes in from around the world to record the creation stories etc.
Interestingly, much of the technical information supplied by the Annunaki to the Sumerians has proven to be correct. Only very recently has our Science been able to validate it from our own observations.
My information on the Annunaki is taken from the research of an old and dear friend of mine who deciphered the Sumerian Texts for the British Museum way back last century now. She made a point of not adding anything, she simply deciphered into plain English language without the 'extra' bits that have found there way into the stories through Sitchin's books. Sitchin and my friend Roma worked on the decipering at the same time and had many arguments over the ability Sitchin had to extrapolate and add his own flavour to them. LOL
And my perceptions on spirituality and the bigger pictures comes from having had the enlightening Oneness experience back in 1999 when the Guides and I worked together every night. Please don't see this as blowing my own trumpet, it is only meant to help you gain understanding of why I give this information.
Well I have gotten right of the thread topic there, so I better finish this post, LOL.
Love Always. [:)]
That is very interesting information Tayesin. ALso, good to see you about, as always. [:)]
I would love to find out more. Do you know of any internet resources or URLs with information of the Sumarians or the Annunaki? Is anything of your friends translations published? I hope you could see where studying the sources of ancient religious texts would be very interesting to me.
What ever you can do, or simply for your previous post - Thanks![:)]
I agree kiauma. Tayesin, can you link us to other information about the Summerians? I've heard my own stories about how our DNA was coddled from extraterrestrial sources because it was deficient in some ways. I wonder how this might blend with what you mentioned of the Annuaki. Really, any more light you can shed on the subject would be of use.
How does one explain the dinosaurs of millions of years ago, and the rise and fall of Neanderthal men and earlier species? Were they experimental, OR (as i heard) degenerates from failed and dead societies (like Atlantis) on a decline to extinction after their destruction. Hmm. Hurts the ol noggin sometimes to think so much on what is hard to prove.
Ahem...
Back on topic [:D]
So what I'm seeing here is that there is a general consensus here that there is no conflict between sexuality and spirituality. The conflict seems to be between what mainly christian religions define as sin and our true nature. As Adept_of_Light stated, is it wrong to have sex out of lust? Abstaining for reasons other than the true desire to do so can lead to physical ailments by repressing those urges (as all repressions and toxic thoughts seem to do in one form or another) and creating a toxic relationship between our instincts, desires and sexual nature VS our cultural, religious and moralistic conditioning. It seems tho me that this is the conflict in all issues regarding sex and spirituality... not just the abstensiton... that we are imposing our own man-made or man-proclaimed barriers and limitations against our nature...
Which leads me to ask the question, Which is the greater sin... expecting one to live against their own nature by imposing rules or allowing people to live in the way that is in harmony with their nature and reserving judgment? I'll take the life of working in harmony with my nature any day. [^]
Kerri
Christian Alert:
Be alert to persons starting a thread (in this case,spirituality) without a personal statement or comment in it. It's an, ask the question, comment later, so it will "fit" trick.
Notice this thread has evolved into an anti-Christian trend by the person starting it.
Lighthouse,
Be ready to live by the very thing you preach or say. It works in more than one way. Don't ever hold others to a standard, you yourself reject.
Christianity is not your conscience. Your letting it be. Why else do you make such a statement? Your still held by universal laws. You can run, but you can't hide from it. Don't use christians as your scapegoat.
If your partner and you have problems, don't blame a religion.
Tayesin seems to have motivated you by statements more than likely has NOT been a personal experience.Anti-Christians are everywhere. So Tayesin places common "cut downs" in the posts, it doesn't mean you have to.
Tantra sex has been made into a commercial gimmick. It's been exploited so as for a seeker to want something he/she does not have. Would you or anybody else know about such a thing unless you read about it? Your head is easily turned. It seems that you are trying to form a system of beliefs based on the last comment from another to suit YOU. May I suggest you discover your own commitments and convictions. Sorry, and a warning....the outcome may not be very comfortable to your flesh. Oops...is that a christian term? Let's call it physical,or what ever word comes closer to this discomfort.Just because Tayesin made a stab at others, doesn't mean you have to listen or believe. It will be interesting to see where it gets Tayesin, but that's another subject.
Why is the highth or strength of a matter measured by christianity standards? Can't things be talked about with placing christianty as the bad example? You make christianity credible by this very standard of measurement.You are not helping your cause or purpose by crushing it like a cigarette, holy smoke! [:)]
Religion is a springboard to higher understanding.Many walk away angry. You can either curse a messenger, or move forward to understanding what it's all about, no judgment is necessary. If one chooses to be non jugmental, you may be open to who your real enemy is. Clue...it's not God, religions, or even the churches. Now....is this thread about this subject? Was this the original intention for this thread start? If so, there is a big section on christianity, there for all you who care to bash it.
Adept_of_Light
Great post.There were also some very good posts. I wouldn't have attempted this subject if I had known it was going to turn into a christian vs everything else.
What is sin to you, Lighthouse? Isn't that a christian term? Maybe try karma creation instead. Have fun with your new found discoveries.Remember it's yours, not others...and don't hold these others to your standards (many surprizes await you). Stop baiting people.
Hello again Kerri,
quote:
Originally posted by Lighthouse
So what I'm seeing here is that there is a general consensus here that there is no conflict between sexuality and spirituality.
No. There can be conflict because sexuality is like a knife, whomever holds it can do good (to themselves spiritually) or bad (to themselves spiritually). Most humans use sexuality for the purpose of temporary pleasure and reproduction. This is almost a necessary phase in the human soul evolution. Lessons are learned by establishing and passing through various types of relationships, but these are very low level and "poor" lessons compared to the gigantic steps that are taken when sexuality is worked upon esoterically, but then again not all, in fact, most humans are not ready for this type of work and delving too early into such endevours could have adverse affects too. All good things, in good time. There is no need to rush, our spirits are eternal! =)
I'd say the two are definitely interconnected (sex and spirituality), and what happens to one certainly affects the other. In the end, depending on our individual states of personal development, the appropriate phase of sexuality and spiritual development must be undertaken in order for us to grow. There exist many levels to both sex and spirituality, but the important thing is to develop them in balance. Conflict arises when the two are out of sync or when we digress in the development of either. Lustful sex, as an example is nearly always a digression because of the harm (physically & spiritually) we are doing to ourselves if we never grow beyond this type of sex. That said, sometimes we need to undergo a relationship experiencing this type of sex to later realize what a poor cousin it is to sex with a partner whom we "love". This is a very extensive subject, and I've barely scratched the surface.
quote:
The conflict seems to be between what mainly christian religions define as sin and our true nature.
The problem is that we believe our true nature is who we are, but our true nature is really a divine one and our function here is to ascend towards it. The concept of sin is to help us avoid the pitfalls of temptation (to use christian terms) and work toward reaching our true nature of being more human (as per my last post).
I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity. ;-)
quote:
Which leads me to ask the question, Which is the greater sin... expecting one to live against their own nature by imposing rules or allowing people to live in the way that is in harmony with their nature and reserving judgment? I'll take the life of working in harmony with my nature any day. [^]
Living against your own nature by imposing rules can actually be a very good thing for one's growth, assuming those rules are meant to help eradicate bad behaviour inherent in your present nature. Organized religeon is a good example of this, and I would go as far as saying that it is a necessary thing and there are a lot of people that gain and grow through its engagement.
If your nature is not so great, rules can be a good thing, because they can be used as a self-disciplining tool for one's transformation and growth. If your nature is great, rules can act negatively by posing as barriers of limitation and thus inhibiting growth.
Living in harmony with one's nature may sound like a great thing, and it is, but I believe most of us who try to do this fail. If our true nature is an enlightened one, then yes we will be in permanent harmony, but since most of us are not enlightened, we can not live in this manner. What we then do is often mistakenly try to live within our present nature in a harmoneous way, and this sounds great at first because there would obviously be less conflict with the self. The problem is that humans tend to stagnate in growth when they are too comfortable in their peaceful settings. Challenges and suffering unfortunately or fortunately bring about far more rapid growth.
The best thing (well for me anyway) is to work introspectively and seek positive change in myself constantly, because then I can grow by leaps and bounds with minimal suffering ( I am fixing problems in myself before they have a chance to manifest to any great extent) and without having to live constrained by the rules and creeds of others because by trying to know myself, I know which rules are best for me. This method tends to bring about a relatively harmoneous growth without stagnation.
Reserving judgement toward others is mostly a good thing... most people don't like to be criticized. Reserving judgement toward yourself can be debilitating toward personal growth. Over judging ourselves in a negative context is also debilitating toward personal growth, balance as the old cliche goes, is key.
Cheers,
Adept of Light
Wisp:quote:
Notice this thread has evolved into an anti-Christian trend by the person starting it
I fail to notice this. Could you provide the facts you used to arrive at the conclusion?
I believe your post borders the ad hominem argumentative fallacy in that it seems to attack the author instead of the subject matter.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
quote:
quote:
Notice this thread has evolved into an anti-Christian trend by the person starting it
I fail to notice this. Could you provide the facts you used to arrive at the conclusion?
I believe your post borders the ad hominem argumentative fallacy in that it seems to attack the author instead of the subject matter.
Agreed, there doesn't seem to be any christian bashing going on ! Lets keep the fine debate running.
Mark
Hi All,
Adept, an excellent post there, I enjoyed your comprehensive perceptions on the thread topic. And I admire that you are applying yourself to balanced growth.
Wisp, if a person wants to help by awakening others from their belief system boxes then it may well appear as bashing to those who wish to hold those beliefs. Our perceptions can be based in Belief (creating the experience) or Experience (living it without forming belief systems around it). When truth appears as bashing it serves to point a direction for the perceiver's growth, don't you think ?
About the Annunaki stuff. I hope no one got the impression that I was throwing mud at Sitchin or his work. Just some things like the Annunaki suspending gold mined from earth in their planet's atmosphere do not actually appear on the Tablets. Yet his book "The Twelth Planet" is still the best introduction to the deciphered texts that you can get a copy of.
Lust, even the word sounds lusty. Being a part of the human make-up it must be fine to accept your Lust, even if it is ubalanced in you. Then you need to live with it to grow through it.
We can Love and Lust the same person with no apparent fears that we are contradicting ourselves, so why worry over it.. do what you know and feel is 'right' for you, as Adept expressed so well.
Love Always. [:)]
I don't think there is any christian bashing at all here. Not sure where that came from.
This is an extremely well thought out topic and apprectiate everyone's posts, they've given me valuable food for thought. As for the Love vs. Lust, they are closely intertwined so i don't know where one begins necessarily and the other ends. If you LUST after someone, have a one-night-stand, yet still respect and admire and essentially "Love" that person, if not relationship wise or long term, i suppose that is a feeling/emotion that must be experienced. Many people go through life in casual sexual experience one after another, and then others marry early and love/lust one person their whole life, or sometimes they don't love/lust at all and endure rocky relationship because they fear being alone or the fear of loss.
I've often let fear control my actions and decision, which is unfortunely thinking much too like a human. I would prefer to make decision with the guidance of my higher self who knows better.
And as others have mentioned so well, knowing oneself and not judging others or even yourself is the key to a balanced life (well, one of the keys). Adept, you did make some rather good points.
I think that in essence that sex should be a valued ASPECT of ones life, not an obession. It is ultimately healthy and spiritually inclined in ways i don't fully understand, but look forward to learning.
quote:
Originally posted by Adept_of_Light
No. There can be conflict because sexuality is like a knife...
Lessons are learned by establishing and passing through various types of relationships, but these are very low level and "poor" lessons compared to the gigantic steps that are taken when sexuality is worked upon esoterically, but then again not all, in fact, most humans are not ready for this type of work and delving too early into such endevours could have adverse affects too. All good things, in good time. There is no need to rush, our spirits are eternal! =)
I'd say the two are definitely interconnected (sex and spirituality), and what happens to one certainly affects the other. In the end, depending on our individual states of personal development, the appropriate phase of sexuality and spiritual development must be undertaken in order for us to grow. There exist many levels to both sex and spirituality, but the important thing is to develop them in balance. Conflict arises when the two are out of sync or when we digress in the development of either. Lustful sex, as an example is nearly always a digression because of the harm (physically & spiritually) we are doing to ourselves if we never grow beyond this type of sex. That said, sometimes we need to undergo a relationship experiencing this type of sex to later realize what a poor cousin it is to sex with a partner whom we "love". This is a very extensive subject, and I've barely scratched the surface.
What I think I'm seeing in your post is that as we evolve as beings, it's not like a one sided thing, it's more like an onion. If I am growing spiritually, seeking more lucid experiences with the Divine, this will branch out into all areas of my life. I will seek greater expression of the Divine in my work, interactions and sexual experiences. if I am living a superficial existence, with superficial desires, my desires will be in line with that. I think (and feel free to correct me if this does not make sense) that what you mean by saying that when sexuality is worked on esoterically, this is ther further evolution of spirit desiring the greater expression in that area of the individual's experience. Therefore (for lack of a better word) lustful sex, driven by pure physical desire can be hurtful because the individual may subconsciously be seeking the higher experiences yet is not yet capable of fully experiencing it. This may be because of their own barriers and need for a further and deeper understanding of themselves as a spiritual being inhibit their ability to experience the higher levels of the sexual experience. I also imagine this would require a partner who is also on the path and in search of the greater sexual/spiritual experience. Do you feel both partners must be conscious that the sexual act can be a vehicle for experiencing the Divine in order for them to share the Divine experience?
quote:
I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity. ;-)
What about the desires of experiencing the ecstacy of the Divine? Is this still egocentric? I'm not asking a rhetorical question... I would actually like to know if anyone has an opinion of this, because it is something that is a bit confusing to me. If my life is directed towards reaching a state of the divine unity, does that mean that the desire to have these experiences are still desires of the ego?
quote:
Living against your own nature by imposing rules can actually be a very good thing for one's growth, assuming those rules are meant to help eradicate bad behaviour inherent in your present nature. Organized religeon is a good example of this, and I would go as far as saying that it is a necessary thing and there are a lot of people that gain and grow through its engagement.
I agree to a certain extent yet I believe there comes a point where through an individual's evolution, we outgrow the organized structure and need to forge our own way. I agree that sex can be like a knife, it can benefit one or it can hurt one. In fact, i can see this through the evolution of my own sexual experiences. I feel that now, I am reaching a point where my spiritual evolution is pushing me to seek the greater experience in all aspects of my life. My spiritual growth is directly in line with my work so that is all taken care of and my spiritual growth supports my work (I'm a Motivational Speaker/Writer)the sexual experience seems to be the main area that is lagging.
In my own marriage, I was at one level of spiritual/sexual understanding when I got married which was a higher understanding of myself than I was in college. I never would have chosen at 26, the same relationship I chose at 20 and I believe that when we got married, we may have both been on ths same page. Since then, I have grown
Tremendously and the same experience I may have sought at 26 is not the same experience I now desire at 33. So, the deeper desire for something more weighs heavily on my mind and makes my heart yearn for a greater spiritual connection with my partner so I can fulfill that aspect of my own sexual nature. Unfortunately, this is something I can not fabricate and my partner seems disinterested in the path [B)].
Kerri
Taysin says:
What conflict there has been historically must have been man-made, based on out-moded belief systems supplied by man-made religions. In which case any conflict between the two was created as a control mechanism.
During the rise of christianity (in it's more bloodthirsty times) the church in Rome wanted to stop people following the ancient ways and performing ritual sex in the fields and sacred places. What better way than to inform the masses that such activity was Satan's doing, in which case it supported the horrendous attitude that women were inherently evil, so therefore having sex with one was also evil. Which is one reason why it was thought we were all Sinners. Strangely enough though, having sex was okay with 'God' if it was to make babies... two rules, more control.
Celibacy has been chosen by 'holy people' as a means to focus attention on their task of growing in spiritual understanding.. which is very unbalanced in view of the fact that we are spiritual beings. I say this because being incarnate as a human means to be sexual in nature and to remove ourselves from the world in this way is as unbalanced as the person who wants as much sex as possible. So how can balance be obtained if we remove ourselves from human experience ? All things in moderation is one of the keys to balancing our human and spiritual nature, to bridge the void between the two.
Lighthouse says:
DAMN!! You make so much sense! EXACTLY!!! Thanks Tayesin... damn organized religions... How many layers does one have to peel before reaching the truth???
Tayesin says:
Also, I have to say this.... the concept of us being imperfect is very much religious dogma and not at all factual in the bigger picture. It is something that was used to disempower the masses for control. Unfortunately it is still prevalent in christian circles today.
Lighthouse says:
So what I'm seeing here is that there is a general consensus here that there is no conflict between sexuality and spirituality. The conflict seems to be between what mainly christian religions define as sin and our true nature. As Adept_of_Light stated, is it wrong to have sex out of lust? Abstaining for reasons other than the true desire to do so can lead to physical ailments by repressing those urges (as all repressions and toxic thoughts seem to do in one form or another) and creating a toxic relationship between our instincts, desires and sexual nature VS our cultural, religious and moralistic conditioning. It seems tho me that this is the conflict in all issues regarding sex and spirituality... not just the abstensiton... that we are imposing our own man-made or man-proclaimed barriers and limitations against our nature...
Which leads me to ask the question, Which is the greater sin... expecting one to live against their own nature by imposing rules or allowing people to live in the way that is in harmony with their nature and reserving judgment? I'll take the life of working in harmony with my nature any day.
______________________________________________________________________
Okay, here's the dialog between Taysin and Lighthouse.You can go to the Christian forums and read endless dialog on the same subject.
Christianity is not the problem. There's a tendency for one to place blame on something that keeps one in a state of denial. It's easier to blame something on the outside rather than search yourself.
If a person is in a "box", sex is not your problem.In fact, it should be last on the list after you get your head on straight.
AdeptofLight:quote:
I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity. ;-)
I disagree. Removing the ego from te driver's seat doesnät remove desires and it should because ddesires are what keep us moving forward. It does, however, remove the attachment and dependency on the achievement and quality of the result of pursuing those desires.
In other words while one still strives towarrd a goal there is no longer any difference between achieving the goal and not achieving it.
Lighthouse:quote:
What about the desires of experiencing the ecstacy of the Divine? Is this still egocentric? I'm not asking a rhetorical question... I would actually like to know if anyone has an opinion of this, because it is something that is a bit confusing to me. If my life is directed towards reaching a state of the divine unity, does that mean that the desire to have these experiences are still desires of the ego?
Based on what I stated above it depends on how much you are attached to the result of achieving the ecstasy.
It's egocentric (based on ego) when the non-attainment of the result causes us to feel less, disappinted and hurt.
But if one sincerely seeks the goal yet doesn't hang on the expectation of one result of another the desire is merely a desire and not egocentric. The difference is in seeing the journey as the important part and not the result and in being a sincere seeker.
2cents & L&L
jouni
Wisp:quote:
Christianity is not the problem. There's a tendency for one to place blame on something that keeps one in a state of denial. It's easier to blame something on the outside rather than search yourself.
Again, the only person who seems to find blame directed toward christianity is you. All I see is a number of people presenting their opinions in a rational and non-attacking manner.
Do you find the similar dialogue on the christian sites anti-christian as well? Perhaps you should examine yourself to find out why you feel so quick to point the blame on others while not actually adding anything to the discussion.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Organized religion - empirialistic religions, in particular (those that claim to be the whole Truth, condemning non-followers as 'damned') - can be very much like a gun. Loaded with a theological ammunition, it can explode with tremendous kinetic energy, and is very often used in the forceing of submission to another's will.
Of course we all know guns don't kill people, people kill people. But then I wonder, why are we shooting each other in the first place?
Some belive that the act of lurrve making opens a portale from the next dimension, so a soul may be incarnated in to this life (wish I could remember). Some people who have A.Pd and seen a river where spirit people jump in and are then transported the this dimmension have described it, and there is a story some where of an indian lad who remembers the river, and aspects of his previouse life, not far from where he lives now..anyway thats another story.
But if we truely do choose our parents, then every pregnacy weather the child is concieved in a solid loving marriage or up a back alley (pun intended [:o)]) behined a club on a saturday night, (what a beutiful picture im painting lol) the soul of that person chose their own circumstaces and birth parents to siute their own needs, so I would guess pretty every act of penetrative sex must have a place in the grand design of things.
What im saying is there has to be an imseprable link between spirituality and sex, Im of the notion that its more to do with the effect that anything might have an individuale and their personal feelings about it. Our physical life has to have pleasure, and if its harm to know one,...why not!. Would I have a one night stand? if it was with harm to know one, then of course and i believe im a very spiritual person.
2 cents, Marcus.
The link between spirituality and sexuality precisely is creation, wether of love or life.
It is the exploitation of and through sex that is non-spiritual, and even destructive.
jilola asks:
quote:
I fail to notice this. Could you provide the facts you used to arrive at the conclusion?
You asked for it and you got it. Now why are you blaming me for the interruption of thought on the subject of sexuality vs spirituality?
I did contribute to the thread. If it hadn't turned into a bashing against religion it may have had some meaning, now it has no meaning what so ever.
Yes, there is a lot of anti-christian material in the christian forums. That's why it was put there, to put christians in their box. Unfortunately, every anti-christian so inclined, used it as their own personal shooting gallery. Thus, the violence continues.
Back on track, the mind and body is an important issue on this subject. But, carry on with your own ideas, I've lost interest.
Have fun on your slanted and disjointed journey (dis-joined).
Wisp states:
quote:
Yes, there is a lot of anti-christian material in the christian forums. That's why it was put there, to put christians in their box. Unfortunately, every anti-christian so inclined, used it as their own personal shooting gallery. Thus, the violence continues.
This is not an anti-christian thread and there is no violence being thrown at you or at Christianity in general. It seems to me that you must be carrying around a lot of pain, Wisp, because you would not believe this to be true if you did not feel personally attacked. Here are a few observations I have made in my life and these are some points I make in my talks. I hope you do not take this as a personal affront, however, you will interpret it in whichever way you desire to see it... That I can not help.
1.)We use our experiences to validate our own beliefs or another way of saying it is
we perceive what we believe - Lets say I believe I am fat and ugly and unworthy of love. If someone says that my sister is beautiful while I'm standing right next to her and that person does not pay me a compliment, I may interpret their lack of my acknowledgment as a slap in the face and validation for my negative self perception. I can not know what that person's thoughts are or what their heart feels. Perhaps the person is just shy and more at ease with my sister. He may feel that I'm the most beautiful woman in the world but lacks the courage to say it. Therefore I will interpret these actions to suit my own self concept.
2.)Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. - If something stated in here makes you feel uneasy, please check yourself to see what it is that makes you feel that way. I have found from my experience that when I feel threatened, it is because someone has pointed out something that I subconsciously perceive as a weakness of mine.
3.)We can only give out what we have - If I have a handful of daisies, I can only give you a daisy; I can not give you a rose. Similarly, if I am holding a lot of pain, fear and anger, that is what I will have to give. If all I hold is fear, anger and pain, I will have no love and compassion to share. Your posts speak to me of anger (even rage) and it seems to me you are reading something that is not there... this may be by choice in order to create conflict within a thread that you do not agree with or understand.
4.)Whatever we give out increases in us - Similar to the last statement, if all I give is pain, fear and anger, those emotions will increase in me. I will therby create more pain, anger and fear through my actions. We all have some degree of love within us, this is our God Nature. If I give out love, that will increase in me and I will be less likely to believe the world is against me.
5.) When we pass judgment on another, it is because someone is holding up a mirror to us which we believe reflects our weaknesses - I used to be about 60 lbs overweight. I would JUDGE women according to their bodies in 2 ways. If the woman was more slender than me, I would place her up on a pedestal and compare myself to her. I would be subconsciously putting myself down in comparison. Women who were heavier than myself, I would tear to shreds in my mind in order to elevate my own feelings of self worth. In both instances, I was condemning myself and self-attacking. Both were showing me the part of myself that I so desperately was trying to dissociate, my association with my perceived flawed body (my perceived weakness.)
This discussion is not bashing anyone. We are all people with spiritual pasts and spiritual experiences. We are all spiritual and sexual beings and unfortunately, many of us have been burned by the church so we are talking out in the open about the pain, observations and associations that we have obtained through our individual and collective experience. If this threatens your point of view, please read threads where you will have better peace of mind and leave us to have an intellectual discussion about spirituality and sexuality as we see it and as it pertains to our lives.
If you wish to participate in the discussion in a constructive way, please share with us you views on how you see the role of sexuality and how it relates to your spiritual understanding.
Peace,
Kerri
quote:
Originally posted by Mystic Cloud
I think it would be very healthy for many to have 2-3 weeks
of complete celibacy as it really changes your viewpoint of
the whole thing. And no you do not get more horny or an intensified sexual drive. It is quite the opposite, it actually
reduces.
I have to disagree with this because i haven't had sex with a partner for about five years. I made that decision myself, to prove to myself that i could do without sex. This came after being sexually active far more than what was good for me. There is more to it than that but I won't go into details.
Now, I don't find it difficult to abstain from sex with a partner, as long as I please myself occasionally. Having said that, I am capable of being completely celibate for weeks at a time, and have done so at times in the past. But this doesn't increase my energy levels in anyway. I still feel tired and weak, no matter whether I masturbate or not.
This could vary from person to person, but I find that if I don't masturbate from time to time, I actually get a stronger sex drive. (I'm lucky enough to have more than enough willpower to abstain from sex with a partner.) When this happens I get increased sexual activity (masturbation), much like short bursts of sexual activity, i.e doing it two or three times a week instead of my normal couple of times a month.
I hope you made some sense of what I've said above.
quote:
But if we truely do choose our parents, then every pregnacy weather the child is concieved in a solid loving marriage or up a back alley (pun intended ) behined a club on a saturday night, (what a beutiful picture im painting lol) the soul of that person chose their own circumstaces and birth parents to siute their own needs, so I would guess pretty every act of penetrative sex must have a place in the grand design of things.
I think we do choose our own parents and our experiences/circumstances while we are preparing to be reborn. I've come to this conclusion after reading some good books written by people who have died and then came back, because they hadn't accomplished their goals.
If you wish to know the titles of these books, please PM me and I'll be happy to oblige.
And yes, again, it's cause and effect. if you must insist on having sex, then you could expect the possibility of falling pregnant as a result. I'm sure they taught you guys that in
Sex Ed. [;)]
I'm in a similar situation G3MM4.
In my case though it is due to a condition my wife has been suffering that has prevented us from having sex for the past 4 years.
During this time we've gotten married, and are living a very happy life together.
It was a question of do I allow my need for sex to become more important than love? I answered no.
I do however, like you, seek relief periodically, but this I feel as you would describe as increased sexual activity, I might describe as increased sexual tension. A while back I read an excellent book on meditation and stress reduction techniques, and the author's recommendation for the best cure for sexual tension is a good orgasm.
Well that's one bit of sage advise I'm not about to argue with! [:)]
I don't feel that my sexuality is suffering at all because of this issue, as I am neither going off looking for women of negotiable affection to sort this out, nor am I repressing my sexuality in any way. I also do not believe I am interrupting my energy flow or causing any problems with my energy body. I have an abundance of energy available, and that energy I am learning to channel through my heart centre for healing. I have experienced energy increases both with and without sex, so I feel that the energy side of things is what you make of it yourself.
I can see that there is a very definite link between sexuality and spirituality, and that is very simply - LOVE!
Love is the one key element that I believe is crucial to both. Sexuality without love is likely to lead to perversion and debauchery, and spirituality without love is...well...NOT spirituality. Probably Dogma would be the best description.
Regards,
James.
quote:
Originally posted by James S
I'm in a similar situation G3MM4.
In my case though it is due to a condition my wife has been suffering that has prevented us from having sex for the past 4 years.
During this time we've gotten married, and are living a very happy life together.
It was a question of do I allow my need for sex to become more important than love? I answered no.
I do however, like you, seek relief periodically, but this I feel as you would describe as increased sexual activity, I might describe as increased sexual tension. A while back I read an excellent book on meditation and stress reduction techniques, and the author's recommendation for the best cure for sexual tension is a good orgasm.
Well that's one bit of sage advise I'm not about to argue with! [:)]
I don't feel that my sexuality is suffering at all because of this issue, as I am neither going off looking for women of negotiable affection to sort this out, nor am I repressing my sexuality in any way. I also do not believe I am interrupting my energy flow or causing any problems with my energy body. I have an abundance of energy available, and that energy I am learning to channel through my heart centre for healing. I have experienced energy increases both with and without sex, so I feel that the energy side of things is what you make of it yourself.
I can see that there is a very definite link between sexuality and spirituality, and that is very simply - LOVE!
Love is the one key element that I believe is crucial to both. Sexuality without love is likely to lead to perversion and debauchery, and spirituality without love is...well...NOT spirituality. Probably Dogma would be the best description.
Regards,
James.
Hmmm... you could be right in that I should describe it as sexual tension.... I'm not going to argue with that. [:D]
You say you have experienced energy increases with or without sex... I haven't had an energy increase in a very long time. My energy levels aren't very high at all.
But I agree with your reasoning about the link between sexuality ans spirituality.
Wisp,
How do I put this Lovingly ? Can any of us help you to see beyond the very confined, chosen, belief system you have ? Many of us on this thread would gladly and lovingly help you to open your perceptions here.
No one is saying you are wrong in having these beliefs..although i am sure some would like to know HOW you have come to your conclusions about religion bashing. Just reposting sections of posts does not constitute an answer for how you arrived at your conclusions. Also, no one has attacked you personally, yet you have done so without reservation, with complete judgemental attitude and without knowing the facts of an individuals history and experience.
This needs to be said more basically I think. No one has bashed religion. You perceive it as if someone has. No one else here does. The problem therefore must be with your own perceptions.
This also tells you that you do have certain issues to deal with if you are having these reactions. The same is true for all of us when we have strong reactions to things... the difference is many of us will delve into that feeling and learn what the issue is we are carrying in order to heal and move through it.
Only facts have been used to illustrate certain points in this discussion so far. Your chosen religion HAS had a history of bloodshed, and not in defence of itself. Many times in it's infancy were people 'converted at the Sword', a historical fact even the churches would not disagree with. So why do you see the inclusion of these facts as Bashing ?
Many people have fundamental religious beliefs, that much is very normal. Most religionists will try to force their beliefs onto others because they have been led to believe that it us their duty to do so. And in so doing they will only argue or discuss from the position of their chosen belief, in this case christianity.
Dear sister, there are many more belief systems that have been around far longer than your chosen christianity. Not all can be wrong, in fact most do have a Gem at their core..christianity being one of those.
I have just been informed that you will not see what is written here in the way it is meant...so I am wasting my time and energy.
Love Always.
Lighthouse,
The funny thing is I was trying to contribute to your thread because I felt for you. And yes, I know about the being burned by the church thing.I've been around a few who has gone(literally) through the same thing.I've not seen anyone pull out of it.
A good rule that has never failed me: Never take advise from someone who has failed at what their teaching.
quote:
I haven't had an energy increase in a very long time. My energy levels aren't very high at all.
I suggestd reading 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle; gives very good advice on getting out of your head and reapportioning consciousness. The energy increase should be automatic - I found it so. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Lighthouse
In my own marriage, I was at one level of spiritual/sexual understanding when I got married which was a higher understanding of myself than I was in college. I never would have chosen at 26, the same relationship I chose at 20 and I believe that when we got married, we may have both been on ths same page. Since then, I have grown Tremendously and the same experience I may have sought at 26 is not the same experience I now desire at 33. So, the deeper desire for something more weighs heavily on my mind and makes my heart yearn for a greater spiritual connection with my partner so I can fulfill that aspect of my own sexual nature. Unfortunately, this is something I can not fabricate and my partner seems disinterested in the path [B)].
Kerri
Kerri,
This last paragraph is one of the most interesting and relevant in my opinion. Others here have mentioned, in many different ways, that it's the motive that matters. And I agree completely.
You indicate here a growing, burgeoning, almost aching desire for higher understanding and union with "the ALL" (something more). It seems like torture when you are going through years of it, but it's a really good sign. Mystical writers have written quite a bit about this. I would liken it to the gradual formation of a powerful magnet in ones heart through all that yearning and pining for the Beloved. And that magnet when sustained long enough cannot fail to grow and succeed at attracting the Beloved (God, signified as one's Higher Self as well as in the soul & Higher Self of ones mate).
My point is that this formation of the magnet of the heart appears as an overlay or tint to everything the soul does, but especially with respect to interactions with others. Love blossoms and threatens to overwhelm you at times. And under these conditions sexual activity is not just OK,
it is hallowed, especially in the eyes of God.It is literally and figuratively, God loving God.
My 2 cents[:)]
Wisp:quote:
I did contribute to the thread. If it hadn't turned into a bashing against religion it may have had some meaning, now it has no meaning what so ever.
I offer my apologies. You have indeed contributed constructively to the thread. I forgot the post you made on the first page.
I still don't see where the bashing is.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Hi All,
Sexual energy, is that really the right description ? Isn't it the energy of the base chakra that we are feeling ? And don't we usually perceive or relate to it as a sexual urge ? A Hunger ?
Until two months ago I had not been with a sexual partner for eight years. It was my choice to do so as I wanted to concentrate on raising my little (at the time) daughter. I learned a lot about me and how to apply this energy for other uses. By focusing attention on the area where I could feel the energy, I could then draw it up through my body. Initial experiments were to see if I could warm myself with it, and I could.
Next I tried using the energy as a tool in healing to increase the power...the base chakra is the seat of the Soul within the human body, and it is where the Kundalini resides.. usually untapped. That also worked well. Now I use it for various things, physical and non. You should see how aura-readers react when you 'play' with your inner power, LOL.
About the choices of Lusting or not. They are only choices. The only one who is placing value judgements on them is us. Once again it needs to be as Adept said many posts ago, about doing what feels right to us. Notice that does not say, doing what feels good to us. Although sometimes they are the same thing.
Everyone's energy runs a little differently, according to whatever we are doing and working on..consciously or not. So there are bound to be people who are having positive experiences from abstaining and those who aren't. The past six months has been a time of rapid energy growth all over and it effects us all a little differently too.
And lastly..... Sex is not bad. Lust is not bad. Love is not bad. Is it even possible for anything you could do in the physical body to have such a profound effect as to actually harm the immense Spiritual Being that you really are ? I do not think so.
Let's put it in perspective... imagine an energetic consciousness...a light that is aware, and it wants to have certain experiences as they become available. It makes it's arrangements for a small portion of itself to enter a world to experience an earth-series of lives. The body it is sending the small portion to is so tiny in comparison to the small portion (soul) going in. And that small portion is tiny in comparison to the aware light (Higher-Self)....
So, perhaps the only effects of your choices here are Local and confined to what you want to use in this series of lives.
I got off-topic again.
Love Always. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin
Let's put it in perspective... imagine an energetic consciousness...a light that is aware, and it wants to have certain experiences as they become available. It makes it's arrangements for a small portion of itself to enter a world to experience an earth-series of lives. The body it is sending the small portion to is so tiny in comparison to the small portion (soul) going in. And that small portion is tiny in comparison to the aware light (Higher-Self)....
So, perhaps the only effects of your choices here are Local and confined to what you want to use in this series of lives.
Tayesin,
Lotsa good ideas here. I think we are responsible for our use of energy, kind of like the responsibility we have for how we use our income (money) down here. My instinct is that there is some kind of accounting.
After a soul has realized to some extent the name of the game, which is that mastering freewill, choice and union with the goals of the higher self is the point of us being here, then comes the time when we realize with a certain bitterness, all the momentum we have built from activities and choices which are counter to this goal. And we must put our shoulder to the wheel of opposing this momentum and pushing things in the direction which we are now enamored with....
It seems like a matter of energy, accounting and momentums which we as souls aborning in matter are engaged in.
Boydster:[(b]
quote:
I think we are responsible for our use of energy,
we are always responsible for every single thing we do. Personally and in our faces.
2cents & L&L
jouni
quote:
I suggestd reading 'The Power of Now' by Eckhart Tolle; gives very good advice on getting out of your head and reapportioning consciousness. The energy increase should be automatic - I found it so. [:)]
Thanks for the suggestion, I will get the book soon. :)
quote:
Originally posted by jilola
Boydster:[(b]
quote:
I think we are responsible for our use of energy,
we are always responsible for every single thing we do. Personally and in our faces.
2cents & L&L
jouni
Yes, and I guess I'm positing this [our decisions about our use of energy] as being at the core of the various ideas people have of "right" and "wrong".
It helps me see things a little more clearly and (hopefully) avoid being condemnatory towards others.
Hello again Kerri,
quote:
I think (and feel free to correct me if this does not make sense) that what you mean by saying that when sexuality is worked on esoterically, this is ther further evolution of spirit desiring the greater expression in that area of the individual's experience.
To engage in sexual esoteric work is to master the accumulation and then transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy. One who engages in such work is not seeking a greater expression in that individual experience, but rather one is seeking advanced goals stemming from this type of experience which is the raising of the kundalini. Raising the kundalini ***NATURALLY***, *SAFELY* & repeatedly leads to the perfection of the self which brings our spirit closer to union with its other half (the divine self) which once united results in permanent Enlightenment which is the experience of everything and NOT *a* mere individual experience.
quote:
Therefore (for lack of a better word) lustful sex, driven by pure physical desire can be hurtful because the individual may subconsciously be seeking the higher experiences yet is not yet capable of fully experiencing it.
Yes that is mostly correct. As I believe I said in a previous post, a simple observation of physical sex shows two bodies attempting to unite into a single one, but in the end this is never achieved (the bodies always end up eventually separated) because typical physical sex is a very poor attempt at emulating what we subconsciously want - a divine union of our spirit with our other divine half - our higher self.
quote:
This may be because of their own barriers and need for a further and deeper understanding of themselves as a spiritual being inhibit their ability to experience the higher levels of the sexual experience.
There are many, many barriers before proper execution of sexual alchemy can be properly performed. A few are:
Inner barriers: Insufficient inner development of the Self and its character, karmic debt, lack of mental clarity resulting in ignorance of truth and of seeing objective truth, under developed energy body.
External barriers: Lack of right instruction , lack of a qualified guru or high level spiritual teacher to oversee when student is ready to perform the work safely.
quote:
I also imagine this would require a partner who is also on the path and in search of the greater sexual/spiritual experience. Do you feel both partners must be conscious that the sexual act can be a vehicle for experiencing the Divine in order for them to share the Divine experience?
The work of sexual alchemy is inner individual work and so does not require a partner, but there do exist practices that allow to work with a partner. In such a case, it is important the partner is properly educated in the methods, and has the same spiritual desires.
We experience the Divine all the time, in fact, at no time do we NOT experience the divine, for all that exists is a manifestation of the Divine. Though I believe in the context you wrote you meant higher energy/spiritual experiences. Alchemical sexual practices with a partner involve the exchange of chakral energies by sending these via specific energy pathways and eventually through interconnecting points (such as sexual organs) into the energy bodies of your partner. The success of such rituals and the quality of the experience will depend on the abilities and development of the two individuals at every level (physical, energetic, emotional and mental).
quote:
What about the desires of experiencing the ecstacy of the Divine? Is this still egocentric? I'm not asking a rhetorical question... I would actually like to know if anyone has an opinion of this, because it is something that is a bit confusing to me. If my life is directed towards reaching a state of the divine unity, does that mean that the desire to have these experiences are still desires of the ego?
No. There are good desires and bad desires. To paraphrase Buddhist teachings, desires which lead to greater attachment and separation of the Self from the greater reality are bad desires (e.g. materialistic desires, lustful desires, etc). The opposite of such desires are the desires that lead to spiritual liberation (enlightenment). Desires who have this as their ultimate goal are noble and pure desires. But it is not always so black and white. For example, to engage in spiritual studies so that you may understand how to become enlightened is a very noble type of desire; however, excessive study can also become an impediment to attaining enlightenment, for if all one does is read and study hoards of spiritual books, in actual fact one is doing nothing practical to work toward enlightenment and it will never be reached by merely reading books. So the degree of the desire is also important and constant self-evaluation, clear minded rationality and being radically truthful with yourself are fundamental requirements on the way to *achieving* enlightenment. That said, let me clear up right now that I am quite guilty of the above (too much study, not enough practice) which makes me sound experienced, but in actual fact, I am only somewhat knowledgeable which is really of little worth by comparison.
quote:
I agree to a certain extent yet I believe there comes a point where through an individual's evolution, we outgrow the organized structure and need to forge our own way. I agree that sex can be like a knife, it can benefit one or it can hurt one. In fact, i can see this through the evolution of my own sexual experiences. I feel that now, I am reaching a point where my spiritual evolution is pushing me to seek the greater experience in all aspects of my life. My spiritual growth is directly in line with my work so that is all taken care of and my spiritual growth supports my work (I'm a Motivational Speaker/Writer)the sexual experience seems to be the main area that is lagging.
Yes, organized group spirituality has the goal of aiding those who are not yet mature enough to ascend the path on their own. While you may not go to a church, you are in this spiritual community of sorts as I am. We have traded one organized form of spirituality for another, though hopefully a better one for *US*. I believe one of the keys to working on our own path is to place minimal dependence of our progress externally. So while I am here (once in a while) with you and others, I recognize that most of my growth must come from personal work and not spending hours posting on these boards exchanging opinions, help and other information, though sometimes, that too is necessary. I personally find enjoyment as you do motivating others, but it is also something that I can easily get carried away with, so after this post, I will probably hold back for a while ;-)
quote:
In my own marriage, I was at one level of spiritual/sexual understanding when I got married which was a higher understanding of myself than I was in college. I never would have chosen at 26, the same relationship I chose at 20 and I believe that when we got married, we may have both been on ths same page. Since then, I have grown Tremendously and the same experience I may have sought at 26 is not the same experience I now desire at 33.
As the cliche goes, if there is one constant, it is change. This is actually an esoteric maxim. Nothing physical is permanent, everything vibrates, and nothing stays the same. What is important for us individually, is that our changes lead to us becoming more positive and increase our emotional, intellectual and spiritual growth.
quote:
So, the deeper desire for something more weighs heavily on my mind and makes my heart yearn for a greater spiritual connection with my partner so I can fulfill that aspect of my own sexual nature. Unfortunately, this is something I can not fabricate and my partner seems disinterested in the path.
As I've explained before, spiritual union leading to true and permanent happiness is not to be acquired by the physical union between two imperfect human beings. Two wrongs don't make a right! [;)] This is of course far easier to say than to live with. In addition, the practice of sexual alchemy as I've explained above does not require a partner, so you might want to reconsider the shifting of the blame externally to your partner's lack of interest. Having said that, his disinterest is surely in part due to his ignorance of the subject matter. Orgasms achieved through sexual alchemy are far superior in quality and states of bliss than mere genital orgasms. So perhaps increasing yours and then his education on the subject matter might stimulate more interest, though be very careful to not try to change or push your partner into this stuff but rather let him come to his own conclusions and understanding of HIS needs. Also, using some humour might not be a bad idea. What average guy in his right mind wouldn't want to take part in "the practice" of sexual acts every other day? Maybe you can start out with some simple exercises in tantric sex whereby he can increase his sexual performance and levels of genital orgasm. If he sees that your methods improve his sexual life, perhaps he will keep on listening to your instructions and slowly progress to higher stages of sexual alchemy.
In addition though, and if I may, I would suggest you take some time for yourself and engage in very deep self-analysis with the goal of identifying the TRUE root causes of the dissatisfaction you have expressed. Is your partner really to blame for your lack of happiness? So long as our spiritual progress is dependant on things external to us, we may very well continue to be repeatedly disappointed.
My best wishes to you Kerri,
Adept of Light
Dear Jilola,
Originally posted by jilolaAdeptofLight:quote:
I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity. ;-)
Jilola:quote:
I disagree. Removing the ego from te driver's seat doesnät remove desires and it should because ddesires are what keep us moving forward. It does, however, remove the attachment and dependency on the achievement and quality of the result of pursuing those desires.
In other words while one still strives towarrd a goal there is no longer any difference between achieving the goal and not achieving it.
Removing of the Ego from the drivers seat is the very definition of liberation or enlightenment. One who has accomplished this has reached the goal and no longer has any desires of any kind.
If one still strives toward the goal, then one still has an Ego to deal with, and so long as one has not achieved enlightenment, logically one can not TRULY know from experience the difference between achieving it and not achieving it, though even a little rational analysis of the problem of living with an Ego tells us that not having one would allow us to experience superior forms of bliss. Further, when one engages in the serious work toward enlightenment, one is capable of seeing gradual improvements in our selves and we begin to slowly experience more and more states of happiness, so the logical conclusion here is that there is indeed a difference between not engaging in the work, being on the path and actually doing the work, and having completed the work.
Cheers,
Adept of Light
This discussion is getting more and more interesting at it delves deeper, isn't it excellent.
Quote:- " Raising the kundalini ***NATURALLY***, *SAFELY* & repeatedly leads to the perfection of the self which brings our spirit closer to union with its other half (the divine self) which once united results in permanent Enlightenment which is the experience of everything and NOT *a* mere individual experience."
- by Adept
An excellent insight. It is extremely important that any Kundalini work be done with support, either from an experienced teacher or Guides. If raised to the Brow chakra it will re-connect you with your own 'christ-consciousness', you will experience being and knowing the entire Universe...being in Oneness. This will bring Enlightenment.
While the awareness and energy we are open to with enlightenment will always be within our reach after such an experience, we are not Enlightened Always.
We are open to it, closer and able to reconnect easier, yet we are not always Enlightened from that moment on. Enlightenment is not 'attained', it is not a trophy you will always have. You must take on the responsibility, work with it even when you do not want to. It may seem like a heavenly experience, and it is, but... it's responsiblity is awesome... the inner power that is now awake can be seriously overpowering.. even in a physical sense. I would not advise it for the faint hearted
Quote :- " Removing of the Ego from the drivers seat is the very definition of liberation or enlightenment. One who has accomplished this has reached the goal and no longer has any desires of any kind."- Adept
An ego is part of being human, and you are very right about it not being in the driver's seat. Some think that the ego needs to be suppressed in us or we need to be egoless, rather than we ego less.
It would seem balancing the ego is more the goal than removal.
Why would one be free of desires when enlightened ? Desires are not just an Earthly thing. Doesn't your heart yearn, desire, something ? Mine still does, I desire to awaken as many people as possible.. it drives me. Enlightenment will not take away our desires. Old monks who devoted their lives to experiencing their divine state are a different matter to We people in the World. Their lives are in a sense still ruled by their beliefs... the filter of their experiences and dare I say it... Asceticism is not a balanced human life in the world we came to experience.
A state of perfect Bliss by definition would have to include ego, our dark and our light. Otherwise it is not bliss, only a poor imitation. Our task may not be about taking our awareness to higher levels and remaining there, maybe it is about going there yes, and regularly, but learning to bring our awareness to Here and Now. Being the great spirit we are in this life and doing it fully aware.
Love Always. [:)]
quote:
To engage in sexual esoteric work is to master the accumulation and then transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy.
As I believe I said in a previous post, a simple observation of physical sex shows two bodies attempting to unite into a single one, but in the end this is never achieved (the bodies always end up eventually separated) because typical physical sex is a very poor attempt at emulating what we subconsciously want - a divine union of our spirit with our other divine half - our higher self.
Well said. Further, energy is moved by the tension between opposites. Were bodies able to
really unite, the 'tension between opposites' would be lost, which would be a great loss. This is why the energy side of it must be understood and practised.
quote:
Removing of the Ego from the drivers seat is the very definition of liberation or enlightenment.
Well said. Not
removing the ego - but instead not being driven by the ego. Big difference.
quote:
A state of perfect Bliss by definition would have to include ego, our dark and our light. Otherwise it is not bliss, only a poor imitation. Our task may not be about taking our awareness to higher levels and remaining there, maybe it is about going there yes, and regularly, but learning to bring our awareness to Here and Now. Being the great spirit we are in this life and doing it fully aware.
Whoe! Now that's living
large! [:)] Again, well said.
Wow. i love you guys(and gals). What someone mentioned about a spiritual community here really meant something to me. I was raised christian but never ENJOYED church. Here, i feel at home. The words and wisdom shared here speaks to my heart more than anything i've ever experienced.
I am working toward kundalini, and i have a full understanding through personal research and purchased books as to what it means. i have a long ways to go, but that's fine.
My own sexual life is unsatisfying to me. I feel SOMEHOW that my creativity suffers for it. i am a writer by nature, telling stories is what i love more than anything, but i have noticed that when romance and sex are missing from my life, all creativity is drained away. Nothing. I am in a relationship with a woman where we are not sexually compatible. To put is simply, i'm healthy and she is not. I am adventurous and she is not. But i love her, the best friend i've ever known, so fear of loss traps me into near-celibacy. Fear cripples my creativity. I can see my own faults and mistakes and yet i let them occur.
I feel that my own sexual freedom is tied with my spiritual advancment. I have often fantasized about many sexual situations and partners, sometimes obessively. (probably neg attachments, i've had horrible problems in the past, and only recently figured out why)
Any suggestions? I would not usually be so open with my personal life and soul but i trust many of you as if i know you. [8)]
quote:
Originally posted by narfellus
Wow. i love you guys(and gals). What someone mentioned about a spiritual community here really meant something to me. I was raised christian but never ENJOYED church. Here, i feel at home. The words and wisdom shared here speaks to my heart more than anything i've ever experienced.
I share that sentiment...
I even love you Wisp, you show me where I still have room to grow. I just had the most wonderful experience. I went house hunting this weekend (such a difficult thing to do from out of town) and was given the opportunity to drive eight hours by myself in my husbands car while he drove the whole way with my kids... this gave me the opportunity to listen to Neale Donals Walsh's
Conversations with God Book 1 without interruption.
I am starting to understand as I think Boydster pointed out... that I am indeed growing and that thing I am searching for is the experience of the Beloved, or God. To expereice God passionately and completely through my entire expereince.
An other thing I realized is that when I do feel LOVE for someone, I m experiencing my soul yearning to experience that too... it is God calling my soul back, the desire to expereince the Beloved through my connection with that person... I see the Beloved in that person for that is what he or she is... an individual expression of the beloved. In the book, I had the same feelings for "the voice of God" that I have for many people who I communicate well with. This I am starting to understand as my ability to see the Beloved in them and that experience is God calling me to God... to understand and expereince who I truly am.
Love,
Kerri
Kerri,
A very nice post. I agree about "seeing the Beloved in them." For me it's seeing the natural beauty, no matter how they may look at the surface. I do see a young, vibrant and beautiful person in front of me.
I have to say, the term 'God' sits uncomfortably with me in these discussions. Because of the connotations it holds. We know God is not the name of a Prime Being. We know it is a word describing a concept. It is a tag we use, yet it does carry those very connotations with it. In most conversations it would usually indicate some christian belief, while I do not think you were using it in such a way Kerri.
I'm a bit of a stickler for apt descriptions, so I tagged it the Creative Awareness.. which doesn't have the verve of 'God' but it does describe it more effectively. LOL
Love Always. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin
I have to say, the term 'God' sits uncomfortably with me in these discussions. Because of the connotations it holds. We know God is not the name of a Prime Being...
I'm a bit of a stickler for apt descriptions, so I tagged it the Creative Awareness.. which doesn't have the verve of 'God' but it does describe it more effectively. LOL
Love Always. [:)]
(http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-022.gif)
You're so picky lol [;)]
Kerri
I'd say that is splitting hairs too, tayesin, but i see what you mean. [:)]
The more i read and learn of the sex/spirit connection the more i am intrigued. i've come to understand a lot about repitition and why spirit adores it. Repitition breeds ritualistic imprint on the subsconscious. it is applicable in all aspects of life. Physically it builds and tones muscle; mentally it enhances memory and ideas; spiritually it helps us understand difficult concepts and ideals that a single thought could not convey. Sexually, the act of repitition is one of the most powerful forces given to us by spirit. The repeated friction of flesh on flesh has the power to create life. We are truly gods forgotten our divine nature.
I have a question:
I have purchased online a kundalini book translated from the notes of a deceased master. i'm only just beginning, but it includes all warnings and explanations of the process, morning rituals, yoga, meditation and mantras. I'm planning on using it in conjunction with Robert Bruce's NEW system to slowly fill my energy reservoirs.
Even at this early stage i've found that at 4:30 AM when i do the lower triad chakra exercises, i find myself sexually stimulated and often stimulate myself (no doubts as to what i mean). Is that wrong? Is that wasting raised energy, or is it normal? I feel very relaxed and calm afterward, and my energy levels stay very elevated throughout the day. I've yet to try the mantras or advanced meditation, i'm seeking a local yoga group trained in the fire serpent so that i can learn the appropriate pronunciations of the mantras (the book includes excellent details and note scales, but i still prefer someone who has experienced it).
Does it make you horny Lola? Maybe i shouldn't do it naked...So, where did you get the DVD's? What I need is a way to pronunciate the mantras, they're sorta tricky, lots of yaaaaaaaaas and uuuuuummmmms and such.
Well, amazon.com owns my pocketbook already, i might as well pad it some more. Kundalini here i come! Thanks for the tip, lola. And you should try it naked sometimes, it feels a little more sensual. And yes, i guess it is a sexy feeling, like you're in tune with your body in new ways, yet familiar ways. I'll pass on the bellydancing though...[:D]
I bellydance too. It is a great way of reclaiming the Divine Feminine for me... it makes me feel very sensual and powerful in my femininity... like the Goddess. I think a lot of the spiritual/sexual link has to do with the degree to which one claims your own power as a sexual being. I believe much of the dysfunction that revolves around sex and the spiritual life has to do with repressing our own sexual nature and therefore denying ourselves.
I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, I don't think so but I am also reading The Woman with the Alabaster Jar which talks about Mary Magdeline being the Holy Grail (She being the chalice that held the Holy blood of Christ ... his child) I thought between my Bellydancing and my work of reclaiming parts of myself supressed during childhood, that I had reclaimed a large degree of my Divine feminine. Nothing has done that like reading this very well researched scholarly work by Margaret Starbird which suggests that Mary the Magdeline (Magdeline is another word for a tourch or beacon) was the Beloved Bride of Christ... I was totally not expecting the healing and transformational experience that this book has brought me. It is almost like it awakens the Goddess in me to new heights and helps to claim myself as a sexual being beyond anything I could have possibly predicted, expected or even hoped for.
Kerri
That's awesome Kerri. I think you've posted somewhere about that book, i remember seeing your name tagged to it, but i wasn't until now that i realized what you meant about MM being the Grail itself, for she was the original container of the blood of the christ. F-in A! I'm glad to hear that the book helped you touch a deeper spiritual side of your feminity. I might want to read that as well. We're all very similar, male and female really, and in the reincarnation sense we all walked both sides of the fence. I'm sure the book could glean some meanings for us all as well.
And do yoga naked! It makes ya feel SEXY! whoo hoo!
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Originally posted by Lighthouse
I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, I don't think so but I am also reading The Woman with the Alabaster Jar which talks about Mary Magdeline being the Holy Grail (She being the chalice that held the Holy blood of Christ ... his child) I thought between my Bellydancing and my work of reclaiming parts of myself supressed during childhood, that I had reclaimed a large degree of my Divine feminine. Nothing has done that like reading this very well researched scholarly work by Margaret Starbird which suggests that Mary the Magdeline (Magdeline is another word for a tourch or beacon) was the Beloved Bride of Christ...
Earlier in my life I knew someone who was quite accomplished at reading the akashic records in matters such as this. And this person said that the soul of Mary Magdeline was indeed the twin soul of Jesus.
She was not through with incarnating at that point though and had a number of lives after that. Her final incarnation was that of Aimee Semple McPherson who was the founder of the Foursquare Gospel church. She is said to have been very charismatic and there are stories of many, many healings which happened while she blessed people at the altar.
She is now a part of their dual soul with Jesus as an ascended being. Obviously I can't prove any of this. Please don't go there....
Kerri, I really appreciate your comments about your quality of life increasing as you learn to see and love God in everyone and everything. As you gradually see only God everywhere you look, life begins to be pretty amazing. I feel that way too.
Someone once wrote the phrase, "Drink me while I am drinking thee". It sums it up for me.
Boyd,
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Someone once wrote the phrase, "Drink me while I am drinking thee". It sums it up for me.
AAAh yes, this is so true... I have felt this so strongly at times with certain people... mmmmmm. Thank you for your tidbit about Mary being the twin soul of Jesus. This concept is so liberating for me...It feels so right, my heart just sings with joy. It's so difficult to see the psychological damage our cultural, societal and religious entities have done regarding the role of women and all things feminine until the healing takes place...
so difficult.Kerri
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As you gradually see only God everywhere you look, life begins to be pretty amazing. I feel that way too.
I agree. The more open i become to God everywhere the more at peace i feel with everyone and everything, even those lashing out around them because they just don't understand.
Our world society has f-ed sex up. It is abused and regarded as dirty and secretive, so most people don't know that it is for anything other than a quick jollie or starting an eight kid family. I hope future societies bring back the sacred beauty of it and teach children that it's okay and natural, rather than letting commercials and tv blare it day in and out. Good lord, they sell SHAMPOO with sex!
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Originally posted by narfellus
Our world society has f-ed sex up. It is abused and regarded as dirty and secretive, so most people don't know that it is for anything other than a quick jollie or starting an eight kid family. I hope future societies bring back the sacred beauty of it and teach children that it's okay and natural, rather than letting commercials and tv blare it day in and out. Good lord, they sell SHAMPOO with sex!
Narfellus,
The reason Sex sells is becasue we are so conditioned to think it is taboo, dirty, bad, lustful, impure, etc... All of these things make us want to repress out own sexual nature and the more we push something away, the more it persists. Have you ever noticed that if you try to deny yourself something... anything (chocolate for me) the more you crave it? This is what we have done to our sexual nature. We deny it consciously or subconsciously we feel we should not enjoy it or it is only appropriate within certain "moralistic rules set forth by the powers that be...
whoever they are! Therefore, since we are so busy feeling some degree of guilt for the pleasure that sex allows us, it is used as a tool for selling things because it is effective... we all want it but feel guilty for our cravings.
Imagine how healthy we would all feel if instead of repressing our nature, we were allowing ourselves to BE the passionate, loving, sexual beings we are! To have freedom of expression without human made value judgments. Would that not make all the difference?
Kerri
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Imagine how healthy we would all feel if instead of repressing our nature, we were allowing ourselves to BE the passionate, loving, sexual beings we are! To have freedom of expression without human made value judgments. Would that not make all the difference?
I actually have trouble imagining a society of sexual freedom and communication. Does it mean sex as young as someone wants it? Parental supervision, like drivers ed? Group sex in an educational setting? What kind of changes would that make to eroticism and childbirth?
I recall reading that Neale Walsch and God had similar discussions. There, God said that other Highly Evolved Beings DO have a very open, healthy outlook, without abuse, without shame of toilet behavior or odor or body shapes. It sounds great to me, but our world is so far from that right now it would take an enormous effort to change.
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Originally posted by narfellus
I actually have trouble imagining a society of sexual freedom and communication. Does it mean sex as young as someone wants it? Parental supervision, like drivers ed? Group sex in an educational setting? What kind of changes would that make to eroticism and childbirth?
I recall reading that Neale Walsch and God had similar discussions. There, God said that other Highly Evolved Beings DO have a very open, healthy outlook, without abuse, without shame of toilet behavior or odor or body shapes. It sounds great to me, but our world is so far from that right now it would take an enormous effort to change.
At least it would be talked about in families and proper use would be taught... It is in the nature of the taboo that the dysfunction occurs. We as a society are not ready for it yet but it is something that we can teach... healthy sexual attitudes. This education would dispell the dysfunctional behaviors surrounding sex and it would not be a source of shame and guilt... there would be no need to control others with it becasue it would be seen as natural as walking.
Kerri
As natural as walking...i guess it is in a way, with a little practice. It's funny that while the internet has great uses like bringing people worldwide into these forums to share information, it also propogates the sex problem to unforeseen heights. The abuse of sex on such a global scale DOES hurt human spirituality on a global scale as well. I'm sure negative entities have a field day with all the confusion and abuse out there.
In every other walk of life humanity learns from the mistakes of others.
When it comes to sex we shield our children and ourselves from the experiences and lessons of the past and commit the future generations to making the same mistakes and receiving the same wouds we did, only because we think in this case is somehow taboo/special/naughty. HEck, we even call parts of mour own bodies the naughty bits!!
Think about a lumberjack-to-be who's expected to figure out a running chainsaw without ever hearing about them or that moving sharp chains can be harmful? Without knowing the best way of getting the most of the thing? It sounds iditotic and silly, doesn't it? But that's exactly what we as a society are doing with regard to sex and sexuality. Blundering in the dark and refusing to grasp the flashlight.
We hide our heads in the sand and expect kids not to figure out what certain bits are for. We then expect them to be celibate with all the hormones runing rampant while being oblivious to what the inevitable sex equallly inevitably will have as its result. THe we cry and rip pur collective togas about teenage pregnancies when all we need to do is tell the kids what's what and make sure they know what they are doing and that they have every bit of understanding about avoiding the unwanted pregnancies, VDs etc.
But no, we seem to want all that. Go figure.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I'm listening to The Road Less Traveled and Beyond by M. Scott Peck and this morning was listening to a part about sexuality vs spirituality.
In it, Peck states that in many fundamentalist viewpoints, sex is the devil or evil trying to tempt us to be lustful and sinful (a belief that neither myself nor Peck subscribe to) and that God would not be a sexual being. Some of these groups would purport that God is a-sexual and living a spiritual life in the truest sense means denying the yearnings of the flesh (a belief that many organized religions have adopted.)
Peck goes on to disagree with the notion that sexuality and spirituality are in conflict with one another... Stating that the physical union of flesh is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved, also the quest for spiritual enlightenment is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved. He sees no conflict. He then goes on to say that sex "screws things up" and that we often confuse the object of our sexual yearning for God and this is what makes sex a "problem" (he states that we all have problems with sex: Married people, single people, straight people, gay people, men, women and even Scott Peck.)
Then he goes on to state that if indeed we are made in Gods image, perhaps God is a sexual being, passionate, sexual, spiritual and sensual. I have heard and read of experiencing the Divine in a truly passionate, even erotic encounter. Many saints have written poetry on this as well as had written accounts of experiencing true passion through their Beloved Lord, God.
He goes on to state that chastity vs celibacy is in his view the moral ground upon which to tread(I need to look this up because I always thought that to be chaste was equivalent to being celibate) He further explains that to be chaste is to have sexual encounters of the most fulfilling orchestrated by the Divine hand of God (instead of trying to orchestrate them ones self.) He states that some sexual encounters would fall under the descripiton of being Chaste -- for the moral and spiritual higher good. That most marital encounters would not fit within this category and that even indeed some subset of extra-marital and pre-marital encounters could qualify as being chaste encounters.
I have a few questions for you,
1. Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?
2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality? Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?
3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate? Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?
Kerri