I disagree with the whole idea of sin, there is just choice, and natural consequences (good or bad). I do not think that anything is 'WRONG'. It would all depend on what you are aiming for. Certain activities can be against the purpose of the universe, but ultimately freedom of choice and learning from the consequences is the most important thing.
Masturbation is just another activity producing a short-term high. All things that do this: alcohol, drugs, certain foods, have a potential for addiction. These activities naturally discourage people from seeking the lasting, perpetual happiness that spiritual development and love can bring.
Greetings Meedan!
From a philosopher's standpoint...sin is an attitude against reality...what is real...Truth, Beauty, and Goodness...manifested in personality as Love, Mercy, and Ministry...shown on nonpersonal levels as Justice, Power and Sovereignty.
God is real...so sin is a knowing rejection against God who dwells in the reality of an all-encompassing Love.
Your right...there are natural consequences from the choices we make..."we reap what we sow."
God Bless
This hopefully isn't what you are saying, but I think it's important to note:
God would not want robots who do 'his will'. He obviously gave us freedom of choice for a reason, so he wants us to do our will.
I don't know what you mean by a knowing rejection against god, you have to be careful when trying to define what god likes us doing and what he doesn't. He would obviously dislike being 'worshipped', a meaningless and unintelligent 'ritual' which is usually based around fear - something else he would hate to be (feared).
The way I see it, all god would want for us is for us to become as intelligent and spiritually evolved as he is. You could think of god as your father, or as a very evolved friend that you will eventually join and regularly communicate with. So, you don't even have to think about god yet! There's a lot to learn on the way...
Sin? No such thing. There are mistakes that we make and learn from. Mistakes don't 'anger' god (it's ludicrous that such an evolved being would feel the need to sustain an emotion such as anger). Mistakes are VITAL, how else can you learn?
[:)]
"God would not want robots who do 'his will'." i agree...besides how can a robot know its a robot? it can't...we have choice..the freedom of choice as you say...and we can use this gift of will as going towards wonderful creativity....but this power is inescapable from the potential opposite of freewill destructivity.
The prophet Jeremiah once said "The human heart is deceitful above all things and sometimes even desperately wicked"
I am not perfect...I am a human of animal origin...the divine command that has been spread throughout the universe is be you perfect even as the heavenly Father is perfect. It is your choice...and my choice.....to each his own...we all must make this choice.....to choose our way...or the divine way.
"you have to be careful when trying to define what god likes us doing and what he doesn't"
God loves the sinner but hates the sin. Sin is never a consciousness of God...it is only a consciousness of men.
"He would obviously dislike being 'worshipped', a meaningless and unintelligent 'ritual' which is usually based around fear - something else he would hate to be (feared)."
"The essence of the ritual is the perfection of its performance."
Rituals are what perpetuates myths.
The Urantia Book defines worship as prayer that seeks nothing for the self or for others but just simply adores and honors and loves The Universal Father.
"The fear of the Lord is the Beginning of Wisdom"
I agree that there are people who do perform slavish rituals to appease a supposed stern and angry god who takes out his wrath with lightning and storm.
That is one way to look at the heavenly Father...as a friend...you can even look at Jesus as an elder brother.
The spiritual difference between us and God is inconceivable.
I agree that mistakes are vital...for we are experiential beings and we gain wisdom from our failures.
Failures are just learning experiences.
"I think ALOT of people masturbate even though they might not admit it."
So very true. Many people do not admit it because they will be embarresed or labeled "not able to get some". Many females do not do it if you compare it to males. Its also very good for males to do it. It refreshes the sperm.
Okay, my thoughts about masturbation.
1. I consider it more a regulating function rather than one of a pervert sitting in a dark room with the door locked. In my view it is a needed function of humanity for those who are not past the wants and needs of sexual interaction. In other words it helps to keep us sane when we just can't find a willing partner.
2. Anyone who tells you that they don't masturbate is dead, broken, or a liar. Many people who even have sex regularly still masturbate, more so the men.
3. If your not afraid to talk about sex then you should not be afraid to talk about masturbation, they go hand in hand..[;)] It being a normal function it should be talked about just the same. Granted I won't run around yelling that I do it but I won't dodge the question either.
4. Masturbation itself is not wrong, just as sex is not wrong. Now what ever it is that gets you excited or that you think about durring the process maybe wrong, but even that is largly subjective with only a few exceptions which should be wrong no matter where you live.
When men become aroused (I think this is for men only..) usually through visual imagrey like porn or something, it triggers a thought and emotion. These thoughts and emotions are brought into the physical through a cemical (I don't know the name) to produce the feeling that "I like looking at this" or something else associated with sex or sexual desire. The chemical is mentally addictive, so once introdced to the body, the person then has a desire to bring back this chemical by either looking at images, or going further. Men usually prefer visual imagrey for arousal while women usually prefer reading.
"Truth cannot be defined by words...only by living." -Jesus
"Physical facts are fairly uniform...but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe."
Basically truth grows...it changes...static truth is dead truth....truth must change...it is alive...it is living.
In my level of awareness right now I believe masturbation is wrong.
I believe it is a sexual/mental perversion.
To be honest...I think the longest period of time I have abstained from masturbation is about 3 months since hitting puberty. It's incredibly hard. Then again...this life isn't meant to be easy.
Nature does not give rights to individuals.
Have you ever heard of a hurricane stopping from hitting a town because of the rights of the people?
Society is what gives rights to people.
So...if it is society that does this...do we have some responsibilities to this society which bestowed rights upon us?
One word that came into my mind is taxes. :)
Money...
Thats another heated topic. Perhaps i'll start another post.
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Nature does not give rights to individuals.
You have a penis, doesn't nature give you the right to use it? Why not lower your chances of prostrate cancer while your at it.
Society gives you the right to use your penis...not nature.
And society can take away that right....but that would be one funky society....but hey...i'm sure it's happened.
People used to stone individuals who were caught committing adultery.
Another way to prove this is prostate cancer since you brought it up...if nature bestows rights on people...then doesn't nature giving us physical diseases that go against our right to survive and the right to happiness?
Are you implying Logic that masturbation lowers the chances of prostate cancer? lol
No. Society does not give you the right to use your penis. Society puts restrictions on its use if it does not fall into what society has defined by thier happy and clouded views. Nature gave you the ability and desire to use it and if society had not walked into the picture things like mating would most likely be easier given the apparent nature of man.
True society provided rights and not nature, but society imposed restrictions on those rights. Nature does not give any rights to any thing. Nature is only chaos and because of this only nature is free.
Let me ask you this.
Would you masterbate or have to worry about your condom breaking and worrying about STD's and pregnacy?
I'd rather yank it.
Masturbation is fine by God. We wouldn't have the SEX insticnt if we weren't meant to use it.
Why are you so afraid of your sexuality? Why are you so afraid of the sexuality of others?
Taboos are constructed by man. God is beyond human morality.
My GOD is a sexual GOD. I don't think I could trust a being that didn't have somekind of sexual expression.
Arie, might I suggest looking into some Tantric or Taoist sexual practices. It might change your view on sex and masterbation when you see that sex and spirituality can and do go hand in hand. Be sure to find some good sources though and not just the "Do it all night" stuff.
While religion and spirituality are two different things, I realize that some people use them together. There is nothing wrong with that, but not every one does. So not everyone thinks that there is such a thing as sin. You may find something that is not best for you, but I that does not mean it is not for everyone else.
As you might have guess by now I do not think there is anything wrong with masterbation. In fact I think that it is a productive and positive part of our sexuality. I encourage everyone to do it. If you don't know how to please yourself, how do you expect anyone else to know how to?
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Society gives you the right to use your penis...not nature.
I really cannot see the smallest bit of logic to this, no offense. So if you can, please explain. Humans are part of nature, we follow its cycles, we live with it/on it/ off of it/etc. Part of nature is the cycle of life and death. All things are born, live, consume, die, and are consumed (though some humans try to take themself out of that last part). Reproduction is part of the cycle, but not a necessary part on an individual level (you can live without it, but this does not take into account any health issues) but very necessary on a species level. Nature grant all things a sex drive in order to ensure that the species will go on. So it is only natural for humans to desire sex. Fighting it is going against nature and can be very frustrating. As humans, the way most of our societies are currently, it is not always possible for whatever reason to satisfy that desire with a partner or when we desire it. That does not make the desire go away. As you have pointed out, Arie, going without does not make it go away either. So does one go around frustrated all the time? Or does one answer the call of nature and do what comes natural, relieving the frustration and allow yourself to be more productive? Or does one use what nature has given for their own productive purposes (energy work, healing, spirituality, etc.)?
Looking at things from the creation view, the divine created nature (and humans since they are part of nature) so the divine is represented in nature. The divine instilled in all living things the sex drive, and thus sex, masterbation, etc is a gift from the divine and not a wrong.
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Another way to prove this is prostate cancer since you brought it up...if nature bestows rights on people...then doesn't nature giving us physical diseases that go against our right to survive and the right to happiness?
Nature does not treasure one species over another. Diseases are caused by other living things, bateria, viruses, etc. Those living things strive to live and reproduce like all living things. It is nothing personal against humans, it is just other living things doing what they do. Which is actually important because it can lead to the death of humans, which is part of the cycle. Death is an important part of nature's cycle. Not all diseases kill, but I do not see those as being design to just cause suffering. It is just the microbes doing what they do to live.
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Are you implying Logic that masturbation lowers the chances of prostate cancer? lol
And yes, there have been studies that show that masterbation/sex can help prevent prostate cancer.
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When men become aroused (I think this is for men only..) usually through visual imagrey like porn or something, it triggers a thought and emotion. These thoughts and emotions are brought into the physical through a cemical (I don't know the name) to produce the feeling that "I like looking at this" or something else associated with sex or sexual desire. The chemical is mentally addictive, so once introdced to the body, the person then has a desire to bring back this chemical by either looking at images, or going further. Men usually prefer visual imagrey for arousal while women usually prefer reading.
I think that is a stereotype. I have talked to many men and women about sex and masterbation and in all honestly it does not seem to be as clear cut as you make it out to be. Many men want the emotions with sex and enjoy reading and many women are turned on by visual images. Stereotypes are rarely true.
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Many females do not do it if you compare it to males.
I am not so sure about this. Maybe men are just more willing to admit it.
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Originally posted by fallnangel77
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Many females do not do it if you compare it to males.
I am not so sure about this. Maybe men are just more willing to admit it.
Well that is a possibility. Females have many things to play with unlike men.
This topic was labled 'taboo' so I was expecting something a bit more outlandish. I was suprised to find that it was only refering to the old french polish!
Arie seems to be suffering due to an inbuilt guilt complex, generated by the dogma of his belief system.
Judging from your quotes Arie, i assume you are a christian; christians are traditionally opposed to masterbation and this is an old dogma which more enlightened christians have bi-passed.
While not a christian myself, and therefor without any kind of issues regarding this subject (I'm masterbating while I'm reading this.........haha only joking!), I do feel sorry for you, but I'm afraid no-one can really help you until you start to 'think outside of the box'.
Perhaps if you have a chat to some biologists or some socio-biologists they might help you out.
It is well known that masterbation is a perfectly natural 'safety valve', a means of releasing pent up sexual energy;
If society did not have this kind of release mechanism, human society would collapse under the sexual pressure... this is fact!
To place restrictions on this is to play with fire (I dont think this is the effect that the gods were after).
Therefor, there is nothing wrong with masterbation; however there is something wrong if you try to resist masterbating during long periods without a partner, as the pent up sexual energy within you will build up to degree that will turn you into a deranged maniac, and a danger to everyone!
The restrictions on masterbation is one of the sillier dogmas of christianity, get past it! (for our sakes as well as your own!).
Douglas
PS
EVERYONE.......... IF EVERYONE IN THE WORLD W**KED TOGETHER AS ONE, ALL THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS WOULD BE SOLVED! (although I wouldn't like to be the one to clean up afterwards).
There should be an International Masterbation Day where "EVERYONE IN THE WORLD W**KED TOGETHER AS ONE". It would be a good day. [:)]
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there is something wrong if you try to resist masterbating during long periods without a partner, as the pent up sexual energy within you will build up to degree that will turn you into a deranged maniac, and a danger to everyone!
Just wondering how priests and others like the Pope or the Dailai Lama are dealing with it... Any idea?
To begin with, some catholic priests will admit privatly that they do masterbate. There are some that don't and many of the problems and allegations that have arisen around the catholic clergy recently are a direct result of the fact they dont, you have on doubt heard of all the scandals recenty, especially in America where the pope convened an emergency session to deal with the issue. another account surfaced here in Scotland. However, this has always went on, only now it is being more widely publicised.
Unfortunatly, socio-biologists and psychologists have been telling them for years that this is not a natural way to live and will result in very high chances of extreme mental strain and breakdown, leading to deviancy. However, as usual, no-one listens.
As for the Dalai-Lama... Some would argue that the Buddhist system trains you to bi-pass physical desires completly so that they are meaningless and have no effect. The Dalai-Lama therfor feels no need to masterbate (although perhaps he's a w**kathon VIP who knows?).
Buddhists deal with physical desires in a quite different way to Christians. The Christian notion is more confrontatonal in that these desires are 'sin' and must be resisted, which leads to all kinds of problems.
The Buddhist way does not try to resist physical desires it just bi-passes them ,making them irrelevent... however, in Buddhism, such desires are not 'sinful' as such, they are just part of the whole material life, which they are trying to rise above.
However, we must be careful about such extreme definitions, as there are plenty of buddhists who prefer to balance their faith with the material world and find no problem with occasionaly indulging their physical desires, in fact they view it as being a healthy way to go.
Douglas
Everyone.......LETS W**K!
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No. Society does not give you the right to use your penis.
HAHAHAHAH this brings back memories of an old inside joke I have with my friends about the "Shaggin' Patrol," or the cops who are in charge of arresting people that have underage sex (supposedly). I agree with the people who say that there is no sins, there are just consequences. Masturbation itself has no bad repercussions as i can see it, if anything its a much safer alternative to sex. As long as you don't look at porn, I have a pretty well supported theory that this will get on Karma's bad side [8)] (at least it seems to affect me).
I think it depends on how one views porn and allows it to effect them. I see nothing wrong with porn but I can see how one can be ill effected by it. But that has to do with the person more than the material.
The only problem with porn is that it promotes and sustains LUST. This might sound strange to people but lust is an opposite of love (i know there are others). What I have observed is that the more you CHOOSE to feel lust, the harder it is to feel love.
It is the same with other feelings and their opposites.
Still, you are COMPLETELY FREE to do whatever you want, there are no sins.
"You always chose the right."
One thing I realy don't like with porn is the varying levels of "violence" associated...
You're right, Nagual, violence and porn shouldn't mix.
Now what about fetishes? I think that's an aspect worth exploring. I believe that fetishes are psychological. I also believe homosexuality is a fetish. I don't know any guy, even among homosexuals I know, who wouldn't sleep with a girl under the right circumstances. In fact, one of the most homosexual guys I have ever met tried to sleep with one of my female friends once. Now we're talking about a guy who could walk into a room and you'd just instantly KNOW he was gay.
What do you think about fetishes?
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Originally posted by EnderWiggin
Now what about fetishes? I think that's an aspect worth exploring. I believe that fetishes are psychological. What do you think about fetishes?
I think it depends on the fetish and just how far people are willing to go. Blood fetishes for example, are deeply intimate and are based a great deal on anticipation as well as the symbology for the particular individual. Most fetishes are about the anticipation.
How bout role playing? I don't consider that taboo unless it reaches an extreme which causes a great deal of discomfort. What about animal fetishes or at the extreme....beastiality?
Once knew a girl with a cat fetish....she also liked role playing as a cat......mmmmmmmmmmmm.
Xander
Here kitty kitty. [}:)]
The energies of sex are very powerful, even if one does not practice any technique for cultivating them, sexual magic, etc. It amplifies emotions and thoughts that are put into it. So when dealing with sex you should be mindful of your thoughts and emotions you put into it.
Porn while on the surface appears as purely lust, I have discovered recently that it can be much more. It all depends on how one views it. Much like a scene of nature can mean many different things to different people, so it is with porn. It can be a nice tool in exploring one's sexuality. Fetishes should not be ignored as they are an expression of you. They should be explored in a healthy manner to discover what it is saying about you.
My personal view is that violence and sex should not mix, though where does one draw the line between rough sex and violence. There are the extremes and then a big grey area that is pretty much personal views. To each their own. Just know that what you put in you get out amplified. One that engages in and/or views very violent sex will amplify violence into theirself. If one has disrespect for sex and their partner then that likewise will amplified within. One that puts in love and respect for their partner, themself, and sex will reap those things.
Sex, be it with one partner, many partners, by yourself or whatever, is merely just a tool. What you use it for and put into it determines what you get out of it.
Some of you may think this topic is taboo and I might take alot of heat on this...but I want to talk about it. I just felt a tinge of anxiety because someone entered this room that i'm typing in and then left. But...in my experience masturbation has been quite handicapping to my mind and my soul.
I think ALOT of people masturbate even though they might not admit it.
One big reason I believe there is so much secrecy around it is that secrecy appeals to vanity. (vanity is undue pride in one's achievements or of oneself)
As well they might be afraid of the consequences of sharing it with someone. It's kind of sad but I know no one who I would be willing to talk about this problem with. I am highly averse to talking about spiritual problems with unspiritual people.
A teaching from the Urantia Book just came into my mind.
"Sin was the violation of taboo...and death was the penalty of sin."
So...according to the UB...sin was that transgression of a taboo...like "do not steal"....if you do not understand what I mean by taboo...I basically mean something that your supposed to stay away from. Such as "do not touch that" "do not kill" "do not curse"
Taboo's are always in negative forms.
The opposite of a taboo would be a positive command....like "do good"
"drive safely"
So...in ancient days...people thought that death was caused by sin which was caused by violation of taboo.
It makes sense to me that taboo's can be made stronger if more people believe in them...as well if they are rarely talked about.
I remember somewhere else in the UB...that it basically says the taboo is the structure of our society.
I mean...perhaps all of our modern day laws started off as being primitive taboo's.
Now...back to masturbation...among ALOT of people it is still taboo.
Something your not supposed to do...and not supposed to talk about.
But really...what is it that causes someone to do it?
To masturbate that is.
I mean think of it like this.
It evolves.
First you experiment.
Explore.
Find parts that feel good.
Then the whole addiction grows.
It actually starts to get out of control.
Oh yeah...it might help you to understand my definition of sin.
To me sin means the conscious transgression of the divine law while
evil is the unconscious transgression of the divine law while iniquity/wickedness is the persistent and knowing rejection of the divine law.
thoughts?