karma and its extreme consequences

[loppoppy]

i read somewhere that if a particular person is totally evil and over hundreds of lifetimes refuses to learn his/her lesson, that the guides and helpers feel that the only salvation of the soul is if it were to regress down the evolutionary path back to the animal stage or maybe even the mineral stage until the soul is prepared for the human mind once again. I also read that when a soul experiences this regression, it is a most tormenting and painful experience.

do animals and minerals have the essence of the soul within them? would such a thing happen as punishment for such a hefty amount of bad karma or is it just an extreme method of helping a soul?

[Kodemaster]

I believe that if a soul refuses to grow spiritually and keeps sinning without remorse, they're sent off to endure one form of personal hell or another.

One of our inactive members - Frank - used to post about people he would see in the astral planes stuck in various loops...doing the same thing over and over again...perhaps that is the purgatory that the Catholics speak of???

There was a fascinating account of a person who claimed she visited Hell in a near-death experience that I heard on Coast to Coast AM several years ago...I believe that Hell is one in the same with the "lower-level" astral plane that people speak of, and that only the worst of souls get sent there permanently, or at least for long periods of time.

This is just my opinion, though.

Best,

Jen

[loppoppy]

if such a thing were to be true then it would surely give me the the inspiration to aspire in my physical life to ensure such a thing would never happen to me. Just the thought of eternal damnation or continuous loop is frightening beyond belief.

[James S]

Karma does get overcomplicated a lot of the time.

Consider the following ideas:

For every action there is a reaction. Every occurance (energy reality) is created by a previous energy statement. energy statements produce action - karma. Karma literally translates as action. It is the natural law of cause and effect. There are no "karma police", no spirits, guides, guardians, etc. "Punishment" as such does not exist. It is only ever cause and effect. The idea of punishment is classic religious dogma.

Where karma and karmic debt are concerned, it is our own soul that is judge and jury. It decides what lessons need to be learned, it decides what karmic debt needs to be repaid in order to evolve.

A soul would never refuse to grow. Our souls are made of the "stuff of God". The soul is pure love, pure light, pure energy. It seeks experiences through physical incarnation in order to grow in understanding - to evolve.

The ego, on the other hand, is the physical body consciousness that works from a place of fear. It fears change, it fears evolution. A person given over to ego controlled actions will, through fear ignore, conciously or unconsciously, the true purpose of their soul. Hence karma.

As to those "hells" that Frank spoke of, yes they definitely do exist, but they are not the device of some universal penal system. People trap themselves in their own hell out of refusal to let go of certain beliefs or belief systems even after they die. Once they let go of their beliefs and realise that they need not be there, they instantly move on.

Blessings,
James.

[loppoppy]

now that makes a lot of sense. But say the soul failed against the strength of the ego. Would the soul ever choose to regress back to the animal stage or anything like that? I was very impressed with your reply thank you very much it cleared alot of things up.

[SS_Patrick]

if such a thing were to be true then it would surely give me the the inspiration to aspire in my physical life to ensure such a thing would never happen to me. Just the thought of eternal damnation or continuous loop is frightening beyond belief.

When I learnt that OBEs and other spiritual stuff are real, I didn't change my opinions of right and wrong at all. In my opinion it's useless and even harmful to live one's life in fear of punishment after death.

I don't believe at all in hell or other religious concepts. As for "karma", I think that James S explained that very well.

[greatoutdoors]

James, good post!

You know we will never answer this question.    All of our astral experiences may be no more than electricity through synapses, stopping as soon as we die. Any afterlife theory is simply theory and thinking too hard about it will give you a roaring headache!    

However, I cannot resist a good discussion!  

You are one of this group who generally makes a lot of sense, but all of the statements you make here cannot be true -- they are antithetical.

You said

For every action there is a reaction.

Actually it is: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That being so, then by your own logic there must be both punishment and reward. Action-Reacton, Cause-Effect, etc.

I do find the idea of "karmic police" a bit strange, but if our soul is victim, defendant, judge & jury, all rolled into one, where does it get the standards it judges by? And if our soul decides our lessons, where does it get that knowledge?

I don't believe all souls are loving and kind. There is evil in the world, and there are beings (human and animal) at both ends of the spectrum. I just don't know if it arises from our own ignorance (the evolving thing) or what.

You make an interesting point about soul vs. ego. If our soul is the governing force, and it is fighting ego, then that raises the spector of "God" and "Satan," that has been hashed over so many times. Again, here are two opposites at work.

Good points -- thanks!  

[kiwibonga]

The core element would be energy. The "logical" path we take is that of higher energy. As we raise the vibrations of the earth, new energies are created, and this is how the universe evolves.

"More advanced" extra terrestrial species work towards this goal, and so do we, but to a lesser extent, since an overwhelming majority of humans are not aware of this.

Our higher self took part in this, and it is our duty to realize it. From what channeled entities say, humanity has strayed away from its original path by living an illusion, the illusion that the self is limited.

We are on the right path, and supposedly, we should help other humans realize what is going on.

"Punishment" would not be such a good way to put things in my opinion, since it is a very human notion... We are afraid of punishment, and this is how most religions drive us towards good deeds, but in actuality, you wouldn't feel the difference between incarnating as an animal and incarnating as a human -- you are entering a physical body without conscious memory of your higher self, and it is done all for the sake of the universe's balance and evolution. It is not punishment, but rather an adjustment of energies... It does not bear the negativity of punishment.

[James S]

now that makes a lot of sense. But say the soul failed against the strength of the ego. Would the soul ever choose to regress back to the animal stage or anything like that? I was very impressed with your reply thank you very much it cleared a lot of things up.

Hi Loppoppy,

No, the soul won't regress. It will just keep putting itself through the same or similar situations until the lesson is learned. After all, the soul isn't restricted by time. It has endless time in which to do things and endless patience. If it needs to spend 600 lifetimes to learn the one lesson it will.

Greatoutdoors,

Actually it is: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Now you're being picky!  
Yes, I'm familiar with Newtonian physics. A great deal of "soul level" physics is tied in with quantum physics, so "equal" - yes, "opposite" - not always, but near enough.

And if our soul decides our lessons, where does it get that knowledge?

Here's where we start delving deep into belief system territory so I can only put forward beliefs that are based upon my experiences as a spiritual practitioner.

Our souls can be considered pieces of "God" (I don't relate to a religious god as in an entity separate to us, but a universal source of all life energy and sentience). They are pure spirit energy that come from the Source of All. On a "soul level" we still have the ability to connect to that Source of All, and all knowledge. This is why people who experience full Kundalini awakenings enter a state of awareness where they feel they have access to all the knowledge of the universe.

Even if you meditate at a Theta brain wave level, you will be open to greater knowledge and inspiration than is normally available. Apparently Einstein had trained himself to frequently operate at Theta level, hence all his amazing theories and insights.

I don't believe all souls are loving and kind. There is evil in the world, and there are beings (human and animal) at both ends of the spectrum. I just don't know if it arises from our own ignorance (the evolving thing) or what.

Again, belief system stuff, but as I believe our souls to be a piece of God, I believe they are pure love and light. I say this because when doing mediumship readings, I often see and feel a person's soul energies (for want of a better way of putting it). Pure love and light is the only way I can describe those energies.

What we perceive as evil in this world comes as a result of those people who have rejected their soul's purpose or chosen path in life. Consider that each of us incarnate here with a particular purpose in mind chosen by us (by our soul) before we come here. If we manage to find that purpose, we also find the happiness and contentment that goes with it. The more a person ignores or runs away from their true purpose, the more bitter and hateful they become. So I feel it's not the soul that can be evil, but the ego that seeks only paths of self gratification.

I've recently had the opportunity to find about people who suffer from pathological narcissism, especially one person in particular who I'm familiar with. This guy can't even pick up a self help book without throwing it away because as far as he's concerned there's absolutely nothing wrong with him. This is someone who's hit rock bottom and still refuses to try and grow. I doubt he'll ever connect with his true purpose in this lifetime.

You make an interesting point about soul vs. ego. If our soul is the governing force, and it is fighting ego, then that raises the spector of "God" and "Satan," that has been hashed over so many times. Again, here are two opposites at work.

Precisely! This shows how such devices in the Bible as God and Satan can work if they are taken as metaphors.

Kiwibonga,
Well put!
I like what you've said there, and I like the way you've said it. Very clear and makes a lot of sense.

Blessings,
James.

[greatoutdoors]

James,

You rock!!  

Yes, I was being a little picky on the physics thing, but it does seem to be everywhere: earth-water, rock-air, light-dark, and good-evil, just to name a few.

a universal source of all life energy and sentience

You and are in accord on this one. For the past few years I have increasingly found evidence of what I call an "energy sea." I can't decide whether it is sentient or not (though evidence seems to say it may be). The interesting thing is that when I call on it to guide me, or help me, interesting things happen. (It could be coincidence.) Wiccan philosophy says this energy is neutral. I wonder though, if it is just allowing us to make our own decisions -- sentience again!  

What we perceive as evil in this world comes as a result of those people who have rejected their soul's purpose or chosen path in life.

That makes a good deal of sense! It doesn't make me hate what they do any less, but it gives hope for their improvement at some point!

Kiwibonga, you say

humanity has strayed away from its original path by living an illusion, the illusion that the self is limited.

I agree, and believe that even on a physical level, we can do whatever we wish, if we just realized it. I see no reason why I cannot lay my hand on a metal wall, for instance, and by adjusting energies, put my hand right through that wall (and the rest of me too for that matter!) I proposed this on a recent post and totally messed with the head of another poster -- he could not grasp the concept.  

I cannot say yea or nay to extraterrestrials as I have no evidence of them so far, but I don't doubt the possibility.

Loppoppy,

You could do a lot worse than track the posts of folks like James (and Beth, Nay, Heather, TVoS, Kiwibonga and a few more). They have a lot of wisdom to share.  

[loppoppy]

haha your no joking there James and kiwibonga have shocked me with thier wisdom on this topic and I will be sure to remember what i have read here. Thanks alot people it was an honor to learn from you all.

[patelvipulk]

There is a nice book on interent  titled"  The absolute law of Karma by a spiritual master from Inida (Pt .Shriram Sharma Acharya, founder of www.awgp.org and ww.dsvv.org), it can be downladed   from:
http://www.awgp.org/gamma/LiteratureEnglish

Ghope you find the book useful

[loppoppy]

I have downloaded your recomended book on karma and look forward to reading it. I would also recommend this site to anyone else interested in the spiritual as there are many links to very fascinating books which I will myself have a read over when I can.

thanks in advance for your help.

[Kenneth]

A lot of insightful and meaning full comments here!!!

In the discussion about evil versus good, I find myself split in two. On one hand, my fears tells me, that true evil exists, but my experiences tells me, that Evil (As I see it), comes from previous unhandled "Pain" or resistance to emotions/energies, coupled with lack of knowledge, understanding or experience, while trying to find new understanding (or something like that   )

Evil is also how I choose to see a specific situation. A Tiger is (IMHO) not evil, because it kills? .... Or a shark or snake or .....

(Some persons attacked by sharks have told, how they initially after the attack Feared and hated the sharks - they saw them as totally Evil and bloodthirsty creatures. BUT - there were also a great need for knowledge in the form of WHY? .... Then they began working with sharks, i.e. as marine biologists, and slowly and grudgingly through greater knowledge developed respect, acknowledgment, acceptance, understanding - and later on admiration, true acceptance and love - until they found peace in the situation, that they were attacked by a shark).

I've recently had the opportunity to find about people who suffer from pathological narcissism, especially one person in particular who I'm familiar with. This guy can't even pick up a self help book without throwing it away because as far as he's concerned there's absolutely nothing wrong with him. This is someone who's hit rock bottom and still refuses to try and grow. I doubt he'll ever connect with his true purpose in this lifetime.

he-he   .... This is a perfect place to play the "Reverse Devils advocate" if you can call it that   .... It's actually just being the "child" that asks all those pointed questions, that are so logically and clean and stupidly naive and wonder full   If I were to work with him, I would try the same thing I do with some of my music pupils when they are stuck in a belief that hampers their development - and that is to help them make their belief as strong as possible   , by finding their belief in my self, and becoming that - and later on (sometimes slowly, sometimes suddenly, depending on the situation) be the child that looks at the here and now, and simply ask something like "But he is not wearing any clothes?" (quoted from a famous fairytale by H.C. Andersen).

I am not sure it will work, as I am not in your situation (or the situation), but if simple explaining doesn't work, and being the Devils advocate doesn't work, then why not let the belief meet it's own shortcomings / weaknesses ?