Very important "what if " ?

[Soulfire]

Hi,

All of the assumptions in this scenerio, and all the fears based on the "what if..." scenerio presented are based on the contents of the Bible.  According to that same Bible, most of us here are going to Hell because we do not believe we are "saved" by the blood of Jesus in the ritual sacrifice and because we do not worship Jesus as God.  If the Bible is indeed accurate in that, then Satan is wasting his energy continuously "deceiving us" with astral projection, because he would have already succeeded (by Biblical definition and according to Christian dogma) in destroying our souls long ago.

I can only speak for myself with any authority, but if I never had another astral projection or further intuition or anything else of that nature, I could still never believe that I need to accept the ritual sacrifice and worship Jesus as God.  I have already tried that path with all of my heart and soul, and it simply did work for me.  Furthermore, I did not like who I was becoming as a person by trying to follow "Christian" teachings.  (I have discussed my story in much more detail in other topics if anyone cares for more background on my personal experience.)

Simply put, if Satan was as powerful as he is depicted in Biblical fears, he would understand that he does not need to waste his time and energy on me anymore, as he would have nothing further to gain.

--Soulfire

[Tab]

Well, if you really take a look at where all those different dogmas that lead up to conclusions like that come from, you'll find that a lot of it is unfounded and baseless rubbish, really. You'll find that there are religions other than Christianity that make sense (and IMO a lot more so), and Christianity slowly gets more and more ridiculous. Call it the devil working through other religions, but I'm pretty sure God gave us logic, or maybe not, but either way I trust my own logic before any deity that wants my foreskin for whatever purpose.
=|

[RJA]

b_smith,

I am 40 years old and have been a Christian since I was a kid.  When I was your age (17) my views were probably quite similar to yours.  However, in the intervening 23 years I've prayed continually for understanding and read a ton of information on religious/spiritual/metaphysical subjects.  I am still a Christian, in that I am a follower of what Jesus taught, however my views have evolved substantially during that time.

Most Christians accept Jesus, believe they're going to heaven and for the rest of their lives their understanding of "truth" changes very little despite listening to a gazillion sermons and attending myriad mind-numbing Bible studies.  They learn to accept the status quo, to stay in line and follow the rules.  In short, they are unwittingly controlled by the fear of "losing one's salvation" and going to hell - not to mention bringing upon one's self the scorn or disapproval of Christian friends.  Unfortunately, this path leads to stagnation.  

The Bible calls for us to seek God with all of our mind and strength and soul.  The New Testament message advocates that we undergo a radical inner-transformation.  Quite frankly I don't see most Christians fulfilling these dictates.  Instead (and at 17 you probably haven't seen enough of this yet) I see most Christians settle down into a life dedicated to spiritual mediocrity and the safety of maintaining the status quo.  This occurs because they are afraid of going to hell and also because years of spiritual stagnation gives them no reason to devote their energy to it anymore.

I encourage you, as you progress in your life, to constantly seek "truth".  Read anything and everything and pray continually to the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.  I believe if you do this you will ultimatly come to understand Christ's message in a much broader way.

What does this all have to do with satan deceiving people in the astral realm?  It would take me too long to write it all down but in a nutshell each person must take charge of their own spiritual search and growth.  If they choose to do that by exploring astral projection then I have more respect for them then those middle-aged zombies who sit on their butts in church, half-asleep secretly wishing the sermon was over so they could get on with their day.  The Bible says, "Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you."  Many, many spiritual seekers around the world are not Christians, but I believe that the will indeed find and God will indeed open the door to them.  If God appears to them in a slightly different form or gives them (what appears to be) a slightly different understanding that's between them and God.  Our first business as followers of Christ is to desperately seek that radical internal transformation that the Bible speaks of.

It is not up to me to tell you what to believe, but I would like to encourage you to continue seeking truth.  If you believe that you already know all the truth that you need to know than you are sadly mistaken - our physical life's here are a continual spiritual journey and we need to always continue growing in our knowlege and searching.

I encourage you to procure and read a copy of a book called, "Putting on the Mind of Christ" by Jim Marion.  I hesitate to recommend it because I'm guessing that at age 17 and with your current beliefs it will probably be a very tough read.  I'm guessing you will write it off as heresy without finishing it.  However, it is written by a devout Christian and it describes a broader view of Christ's message that is radical and fills most of those nagging loopholes in standard Christian doctrine (the one's we gradually blind ourselves to over time because they are so glaring).  Feel free to regard it as heresy (there's much about it that I don't buy in to) but I encourage you to read it as a thought experiment, - even if you have to tell yourself you're doing it to educate yourself regarding heritics' tactics.  Then keep the book around and reread it every few years.  

And above all, pray, pray, pray continually for understanding and then be open to where the Holy Spirit leads you.  Don't just believe whatever you're told in church - let the Holy Spirit lead you.

Good luck.  And by the way, Paul speaks of an out-of-body experience in 2 Corinthians and it's very likely that the profits including John were practitioners of astral projection.  And also, remember that God loves you and if you trust in him the Holy Spirit will keep you from harm whether you are in your body or out of it (you have to leave it eventually).  And yes, just like anywhere else in life some people out here are misguided (maybe even me) - but i have found that I'm a lot better off praying for my own spiritual understanding than worrying about other people being misled by satan.  When I find myself stewing over others' spirituality it's usually a way of avoiding taking a closer look at my own life.

Peace. []

[Soulfire]

That was a beautiful post, RJA!  I look forwad to checking out the book you mentioned myself.  Thank you.  

--Soulfire

[Tarot]

Mr. Smith I believe a good simple book for you that might help is one by a Neale Donald Walsh. Verry nicely written and a great bridge for those beginning to awaken to a higher ground.

Peace, Light & Love

[Spirit_k9]

I -know- I am not going to any place that could be called hell (excludung what I've already experienced in this life, LOL!)

Astral isn't everything non-physical. There is much much more. If you dedicate enough time to finding out for yourself, you will see that there are beings you could consider both angels and demons, but you also know it's not a "religious" thing.

Organized religion as man has set it up pretty much means nothing to the spirit world, howerver there are exceptions, and those exceptions are human. You'll see what I mean.

In any case, I found what Spirit (God) is, and I've discovered that "worship" is not required, ritual means nothing. It's what is in your heart, what your intent is, and how you are developing that matters.

I'm at complete peace with God in my heart and mind, (no overstuffed rigid religious zealot will ever change that either) []

Almost forgot to answer your query;

quote:HERES THE DEAL: I want to know how you can make sure these experiences are real. Your mind has eyes too.
What if ,when you project, satan takes over your mind and puts all these images in there. Soon you will get so drawn in that you won't be able to stop and then what? Everything has to have a point of reference. once again, i am not trying to offend, but i want someone to help me out with this. Please.

No offense taken []  Your mind has eyes, but when in a non-physical state you have no mind. Beyond the energy body and astral projection your being becomes something different. Anyway, when you progress to a point where you surpass astral projection as one of the few methods you use to access the non physical, you will find that you  CAN be sure because of what you percieve and experience. There is no other way to explain that, you have to 'see' it for yourself.

Experiencing the spirit that created us will change you. I mean this in a larger context than "accept jesus into your heart" sort of context. When you experience other beings in these states you know what they are without thinking about them....well, as I said. You have to see it for yourself. Be patient, work on progressing, it will come. I was in a horrible state 12 years ago because I was not sure of anything....it took a few years before I came to the point where I finally understood. Here's a tip; a good part of the 'understanding' lies within the difference between states of awareness. What you experience now in waking is very different in astral, and VERY different beyond that. This affects not only 'how' you 'think', but what you really ARE in these states.

Sorry if that sounds convoluted, but I haven't found very good ways to describe these things yet. Maybewhen I do I'll write some books []

[jilola]

I'm being blunt here but..

What if all the religions are wrong? No God, Satan, Allah, Buddha as we define them? What if there was only us as fragments of a collective originating source left to make our own personal choices and be responsible for them by ourselves?

The nonexistence of the astral doesn't immediatelly mean the existence of a god of one's choice and his/her adversary.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Mustardseed]

Real good post RJA we must be twins, oh no that cant be you are still so young. I can only say ....right on
Regards Mustardseed

[b_smith_99]

This is all good advice butis there anymore? Not saying anything was bad, but I really would like to know everyones opinion.

thanx

[RJA]

b_smith,

Rom 8:35-39: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Many "churches" and their members are driven by doctrine, and an unspoken mandate to control their members and friends.  Fear is one of the tools they use to manipulate others to their will.  It took me a long time, but through my own prayer, meditation, reading and searching I was able to see fear for what it is: a tool used to manipulate.  Fear discourages us from truly seeking God.  Fear limits us and enslaves us to those who claim to be our spiritual leaders.  I recommend that you spend time thinking and praying on the nature of fear and where it comes from and what it's effect is on your spiritual life.  Only after I did that was I able to renounce my membership in the "Church of the scared, little bunny" as I like to call it.  

[RJA]

...and also, - thank you very much Soulfire and Mustardseed for your kind comments! []

[b_smith_99]

quote:

Paul speaks of an out-of-body experience in 2 Corinthians and it's very likely that the profits including John were practitioners of astral projection.

No offense RJA, but i did read 2 Corinthians,[] i got to Chapter 12 and it was there where i found Pauls Visions and Revelations. But i did not read that he had an OBE. Mreover, it seemed as though it was a vision, but not of his own, rather that of a man. Whom, by the way, he doesn't give name to. It says here (in the Bible):
"I know of a certain Christian man who 14 years ago was snatched up to the highest heaven (I do not know whether this actually happened or whether he had A vision-only God knows)."
As i said before, no offense. I did not read anything that might have suggested that Paul and John were practitioners of astral projection.[B)] Though I am 18 now,[:O] i still think I missed something. Please enlighten me.
And, as always, anyone can help or offer opinions if they wish.

I am sorry that i don't have this copying quote thing down.[:I] I hope to master it some day![]

[RJA]

b_smith,

Most translations say some variation of "whether in-the-body or out-of-the-body"...

Here's the King James:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

and here's the New International:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven.  Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows.  And I know that this man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-was caught up to paradise.  he heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

This confirms that Paul (and his intended readers) were familiar with the concept of being out of one's body.  We can also tell that Paul wasn't particularly bothered by the concept of being out of one's body.

Also, I believe that it's very possible that when John and others mention being "in the spirit" they are referring to a state in which they are absent from their body.

It's interesting to note that with relatively little practice we can get out of our bodies.  This tells me that God put that spiritual mechanism there to be used.  Throughout the ages mystics, monks, shamans, and all manner of spiritual seekers have wound up out of their bodies.  Several pieces I've read that were written by Catholic monks make it sound like it's extremely common in monestaries - and almost regarded as a nuisance because it seems to be the natural result of prayer and meditation, but tends to distract one from those pursuits.  The reason most people never stumble across this is because very few people meditate at all.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Christian pentecostal churches aren't all over this, but I personally believe that there is a profound spiritual change coming over the world and that before too long (in my lifetime? maybe) it will be much more common among Christians.

My interst in astral projection as a means for spiritual growth evolved gradually over the last decade.  In my spiritual searching and my attempts to understand what I saw in the world I allowed myself to stray outside the lines of what typical Christian churches teach.  I prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide my searching and after reading a wide variety of material ran across information on Astral projection about 2 or 3 years ago.  Before that it had never even occurred to me that I could leave my body and naturally I was a bit uncomfortable with the concept.  It really took about two years of consideration and prayer for me to get comfortable with it and move forward in my attempts.  So, while I try not to intrude on others' spiritual searching I wouldn't recommend it to my Christian friends without suggesting that they pray and meditate about it for awhile.  But anyway, I've obviously reached a point where I'm comfortable pursuing it and have faith that the Holy Spirit will guide me and keep me safe.  

[]

[Spirit_k9]

RJA, I really appreciate your view on the spiritual, that last post is a wonderful example of someone that has a faith/belief system yet is willing to open their mind to something else that spirit provided as a tool for growth/progression.

It's actually very refreshing []

[Nagual]

Hum... what could I say...  First, I am not a believer.  As I said in another thread, there is one truth and many different interpretations of that truth...  So which interpretation is correct?  Maybe none is...  At one point almost all humanity believed the earth was flat, that the sky was another sphere with millions of little holes, that the sun was rotating around the earth, etc...

I especially don't like the whole angels/demons/satan thing...  For me, it's like UFOs...  For many people, the only way "aliens" could come here is by using machines.  That's so "limited human thinking".  Are there really evil entities out there?  Is the wolf evil when he kills and eat a deer?  Are we evil when we kill and eat animals/plants?  I just think that it's a cruel world out there, that's all.

Personaly, I try to start from scratch (no beliefs) and just build from my experiences... But of course, my own interpretation of my experiences can be wrong too!  Anyway, some believe that we will never be able to really understand what's out there...

[b_smith_99]

Nagaul,
i have a question from sheer curiosity. Why is it that you are a non-believer? I mean nothing bad by this. I just would like to know.

[Nagual]

quote:Why is it that you are a non-believer?

Hum... why should I be one?  What is your definition of a "believer"...?
My lousy definition would be: "that chooses to think something is true based on... nothing, just faith and personal preference"
Let's say by example that you tell me you believe in karma...  Does that means that karma realy exists?  No; it just means that you choose to believe it is true.
Better question: What is your definition of a "non-believer"...?

[b_smith_99]

Well, Nagual, that is a very intersesting way of putting it. Maybe i was being to blunt with this believer/non-belier thing. Maybe it isn't that at all, but rather "to believe." I am saying why is it that you choose not to belive in....? Sorry, but i would hate to assume. I am a little unclear of what youre a non-believer in.
So, correct me if i'm wrong, but I can only guess that it is the Lord that you don't believe in. i really can't go further without knowing.

[Nagual]

Hum, I will stick to my question... [|)]
Could you give me your definition of a "non-believer"...?
Or, if you prefer, the definition of "to believe"...?
Words are tricky; so a definition is necessary.

[b_smith_99]

MY DEFINITION:  "to-believe"-It is how the Greeks said. "To-belive is to fully rely on, and depend on." Basically saying that if you believe in something, you do exactly that, and nothing can disrupt it.
Tell me if that makes sense to you. Because that is the only way i know how to explain it. That is the way i understand the definition.

[Nagual]

Hum... I am not familiar with that definition of "to believe"...    Isn't this the definition of "to trust"...?  Anyway, both definitions miss an ending part: "... based on nothing".

Back to your question: "why is it that you choose not to belive in....?".  Because there is no reasons I should believe...  I like simplicity... to only know what I experienced/verified.

Now, my turn: why is it that you choose to belive in....?

People believe in God, Satan, karma, flying saucers, ghosts, etc...
So what?  It does not mean it's the truth; it does not mean it is not the truth; it means nothing much.  Put a white ball and a black ball in a bag.  Shake.  Now you can say "I believe I will pickup the white one".  What does that mean?  Does it mean you prefer white?  Does it mean you will pickup the white one?  Does it mean that the odds to pickup the white one are highers?  It means nothing.  You are just expressing a wish.

Of course, it can be nice to believe... like to believe that there is a God that is looking after us; that loves us... so we don't feel abandoned/alone; to believe that we will reincarnate, so that we won't disapear forever; to believe that there is a paradise with cute white angels with shiny wings in a fluffy white clouded world; etc...

So, I guess, in the end it's not that bad to believe...  but I will stick to the hard/cold truth.  It's a personal choice.

[b_smith_99]

that is very respectful. and i am sorry for having put you through all this. But i still beleive in the Lord and i will never change my mind.
Thank you all for helping me out with my ?'s. I really appreiciate it. []

[Nagual]

No problem.  But... never say never!!!  [][]

[b_smith_99]

   Alright. To all you people who think that you know alot about Astral Projection, I have something to ask you. (i am not trying to be rude nor am i out to hurt. sorry if i offend.)
 What if all of these experiences weren't real? If you are religous you should know that there are only two types of spirits:
                     GOOD  &   EVIL
This fight has been going on for years and will still be going on after we die. but, and i am pretty sure that you have all heard this before, when you open up your mind to go into your spiritual realm, you are also becoming vulnerable to anything out there. Correct me if i'm wrong,but satan is not our friend. In fact, he is out to destroy us.
    We are going way back now, when satan was still in heaven. aparently he was the most beutiful of the angels because he was the head angel. Then he said to God that he could be as or more powreful than God himself. So God said "your gone", and sent satan out of heaven. With him, satan took 1/3 of the angels. They are now demons.
 Because satan was so evil, he got deformed, his face is still beautiful (not quite as it was in heaven though) but he got a pair of horns. He can still make himself look brilliant.

    HERES THE DEAL: I want to know how you can make sure these experiences are real. Your mind has eyes too.
 What if ,when you project, satan takes over your mind and puts all these images in there. Soon you will get so drawn in that you won't be able to stop and then what? Everything has to have a point of reference.
    once again, i am not trying to offend, but i want someone to help me out with this.  Please.

thanx