Gandalf started a thread "Possible 'focus 4' related Experience" and I didn't want to take over Gandalfs thread so I decided to continue this discussion in a new thread because it might be moving the thread off topic. to view that original topic, go here, http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21677&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 I have recently recognized that everything here, everything we see, touch, taste, feel, sense is all an illusion. I have had a little help from some friends in realizing this, one of whom is a member here and if he decides to join this conversation, then great!
What I mean by it is all an illusion is that we are all united in consciousness and consciousness is all there is. Everything that is not pure consciousness (The absolute everything/nothing) is based on our belief systems or our individual and collective ideas. All things, relationships, events, etc are based on the illusion. Since everything we experience in the physical universe is an illusion, and creation is based on our individual and collective ideas, creation is also an illusion. Everything we experience is the creation of our own imaginings. Our life is a blank canvas and we create the painting of our lives based on our thoughts. I figure since we are making it all up anyway, I may as well have fantabulous thoughts... but the question is:
How does one reach that realization? That question is the purpose of this thread.
here is the last exchange on Gandalfs thread:
QuoteTombo wrote:
Do you have any idea/knowledge as why we choose to create this illusion.
And: Do we really have a choice? I mean I'm not aware of the fact that I create my world therefore It seems kind of odd to me to say I/We choose it to be that way.
Lighthouse wrote:
It's the only game in town. When we realize we are making it all up, then we can start having fun with it.
Tombo Wrote:
lol! And how can we truely realize it?
My answer; diligence, persistence, patience (and the help of a few good friends never hurt either :wink: )
Most of us have beliefs systems that are handed to us from other people, religions, philiosphies, doctrines, family members, teachers, guru's society, etc. If we listen to the way of other people and try to follow that, we are living according to the truth of someone else.
In freeing ourselves from our self imposed belief systems, meaning every rule, regulation, social norm that is used as a control tactic by ourselves to force our beliefs upon others is an obstruction to knowing the Truth of our being. The Truth is we are Love and Love is all there is. Everything we have in place to control each other is based on fear which is the opposite of Love. Once we get to the point where we recognize that Love is all there is and there is nothing to fear, we can then know ourselves as the creators of our experience. the question then remains, How do we get to that point? That is the purpose of this thread.
Fire away
(and Gnukie, can you please help me out here? Thanksmuch!)Kerri
QuoteIn freeing ourselves from our self imposed belief systems, meaning every rule, regulation, social norm that is used as a control tactic by ourselves to force our beliefs upon others is an obstruction to knowing the Truth of our being. The Truth is we are Love and Love is all there is.
We are Love and Love is all there is? Really?
Hmm :confused: Isn't it your self imposed belief system? :smile:
So how are you going to free yourself from it? :smile:
You could say that :grin: but I have found it to be true for me. It doesn't have to be true for you or anyone else. Whenever I feel frustrated, angry, hopeless, etc and I allow myself to look at things from a different perspective, (usually proceeded by great resistance :protest: ) that different perspective comes at me like a hurricane and just about bowls me over with Love. I'm not talking fluffy bunnies like one of my friends likes to say :rabbit: , I'm talking about Freedom of spirit which is another way of saying Love. When we free ourselves from our beliefs that confine us and hold us down, what remains is all that's real... which for me, translates to Love.
Kerri
I mean you are certainly not the first person that claims this and I for one think it may be likely that you are right, but really how can we realize that? I wonder if you have truely realized what you say? Cause if you do, then you must be completly free and happy I suppose (this is not meant ironically). So would you say you are completly in peace and happyness all the time?
I think there are so many believe systems holding us down that it is virtually impossible to overcome them. The only thing I could think of would be meditation. Completly still the mind the breakthruogh the illusion.
So what concretely would you counsel?
Warm regards Tom
Quote from: TomboI mean you are certainly not the first person that claims this and I for one think it may be likely that you are right, but really how can we realize that? I wonder if you have truely realized what you say? Cause if you do, then you must be completly free and happy I suppose (this is not meant ironically). So would you say you are completly in peace and happyness all the time?
I think there are so many believe systems holding us down that it is virtually impossible to overcome them. The only thing I could think of would be meditation. Completly still the mind the breakthruogh the illusion.
So what concretely would you counsel?
Warm regards Tom
Tombo,
I have not yet completely broken through the illusion, but I have been chipping away at it for a long time. Sometimes I feel as if I am the luckiest person alive because I have some very good friends who ARE Self-realized who work with me towards realization just about every day. (kinda like my own personal guru network) I know that I have come long way and am much more free now than I have felt in the past. What I do realize is that I truly am making it all up though and the illusion is mine to play with, whether I choose to have fun in my sandbox all the time or not is a different story. Sometimes I get a little nervous because kids come around and I think they'll wreck my castle and I become quite controlling and protective of what I feel is mine.
I have had insights that the illusion is an illusion. Last night for example, I was talking to a friend who has been working with me through koans or riddles, I realized that when I falter with the riddles is when I become self-conscious and rather than just state things as I see them, I become aware or conscious of how other people see me. Whenever I become aware of "others," I reapond from a place of dis-unity and start communicating from a place of seeking acceptance rather than a place of just speaking my own truth.
Self consciousness is very tricky and it propogates the illusion that there is "another," or that we are "separate." When I started trying to please my friend with my answer, that is when I faltered. My friend told me that becoming aware of when I am self conscious is the first step of breaking through the illusion. Staying in a mindful state is one way keeping focus where it belongs, in the present. When we stop seeing ourselves as separate entities, we then start seeing more clearly.
Kerri :color:
Here's a philosophical idea:
The illusion of our life was/is created by our "self" to gain experiences it needs to grow. Until we have access to our total "self", our physical self is a co-creator in the illusion. Now, we can use the free-will to manifest what we want in our lives - money, cars, mansions, babies, etc..., or we can flow with what our total self has planned for us. Which could be those things. Or it could be living a modest life.
But the main point is that being in the flow with our total self is what brings a satisfaction and wholeness into our lives that what we want can't always do.
The Tao Te Ching says that all actions are effortless when you're in the "Tao". Even when a situation seems extraordinarily complicated, it is totally effortless when in the flow of the "self". There's no reason to "create". That takes effort. It's already been created, we just have to groove into it. Our ego may tell us that we want more, but our "self" knows what we need.
Quote from: StookieThe Tao Te Ching says that all actions are effortless when you're in the "Tao". Even when a situation seems extraordinarily complicated, it is totally effortless when in the flow of the "self". There's no reason to "create". That takes effort. It's already been created, we just have to groove into it. Our ego may tell us that we want more, but our "self" knows what we need.
Hi Stookie
I like that. Can you recommend a very simple book about taoism? I've read The Tao of Pooh (which is about my "level" of understanding) :lol:
Thanks!
Sarah
PS (Sorry to butt in on your thread Lighthouse - now back to the discussion...) (I too like this small writing - hee hee)
Your right, all there is is consciousness. I actually posted a topic explaining it in the integral philosophy forum, its called 1+1=1, it may seem hard to follow, but that's because it is hard to explain. The way I have practiced is by observing EVERYTHING. I view the world as if I am watching a movie. Instead of becoming engaged in the world I view it from the perspective of an invisible observer and when I do become engaged in the world I observe my engagement with it. This way I begin to see the laws under witch everything operates. I start from the outside, the more I understand the closer I move in until the most inner point is reached, which is exactly the same place as the outer starting point. The inner is the outer and vice versa. I guess that probably doesn't make much sense, but everything you observe points back to the one source.
This what I have learned from my observations:
There is one desire that we all share and it is the mother of all other desires, the desire to exist. This is a deep desire that most of the time we aren't even aware of, this desire is the cause for all our suffering. The desire for existence is the reason why we attach and cling to our sense of self. And what is the self? The self is just or likes, dislikes, beliefs, opinions, ideas, etc. Clinging to the self is clinging to our likes, dislikes etc. in other words our attachments. We hold and cherish those attachments because it gives us a sense self, a sense of being. Without those attachments we lose all our individuality, our sense of self, our sense of being, and we are so afraid to lose that.
But look at the nature of nature, it is impermanent. Everything is in a constant state of change even your personality is constantly changing. You are not the same person your were five years ago, not even the same person as a second ago.
We crave for existence, permanence, security, peace. Our mistake is that we think the source of peace and security is "out there", but "out there" is impermanent, we can never have peace and security by attaching to things that are constantly changing. As soon as we grasp something and hold it we lose our grip and start falling, so we grab onto something else only to lose our grip and fall again, an endless cycle of grasping. This is why we have no peace, we cant have peace like that.
Our true nature is pure selfless being, that is the nature of all. We have somehow developed the notion that we do not exist, that were are not already in a state of being. This notion is why we crave for existence, if we knew our true nature was already a pure state of being we would have no reason to search "out there" and solidify our self existence. We already possess what we crave. That sense of being is not something we have to attain or search for because it is already our true nature, it is just something we have to realize. When self realization occurs there is no longer the need to search, no need to become anything, only thing left to do is be.
Stookie:
I'm groovin' on your post, I completely agree.
Sarah:
not butting in, silly... the best is when you go invisible with the writing and in order to read it, you have to highlight it to decode the secret messages.. hee hee like here!!! Bosco I'm groovin' on your post too but have some questions :cool:
You say:
QuoteWe crave for existence, permanence, security, peace. Our mistake is that we think the source of peace and security is "out there", but "out there" is impermanent, we can never have peace and security by attaching to things that are constantly changing. As soon as we grasp something and hold it we lose our grip and start falling, so we grab onto something else only to lose our grip and fall again, an endless cycle of grasping. This is why we have no peace, we cant have peace like that.
Thanks! This makes sense to me.
It's funny because as I am responding to your post, asking questions, my awareness is changing and I have had to retype several times because as I have typed the words, the questions have answered themselves. My attachments have been a way for me to hold on to my identity, the things I associate with myself. I have ideas of who I am and during the past year, I have attempted to rid myself of my beliefs, my entire belief system... because I know that the belief system is what keeps me from self realization.
Rather than allowing myself to flow (as Stookie points out) I resist (we all do) and cling to my self identity. When I do this, something comes along and either nudges me towards something greater or rips the thing, person, attachment away from me. This is usually met with resistance. The more forceful the thing is taken from me, the greater the resistance I have had to letting it go.
(this might be a good lesson for our world goernments to learn) But, when I finally do let go, I feel completely liberated and wonder why I resisted the thing in the first place.
When I am mindful, I just AM but I also do things from the point of view of Kerri, not someone else... but when I try and please someone else, or when I do something because I feel someone else wants me to do it, (as seeming separate other) that is when I am not authentically me. I try to please others (seemingly separate persons) by doing what I think they would want me to do. this seems to be when I form attachments, through expectation that if I do something, for another, I will receive something in return.
(hmmm... never quite thought of it that way before)I do, however, feel like I know I exist. Do you think you might be able to go into that a bit more? Is it the existance as a separate self and identity that we cling to? Is it existence in general? Do you think when we are finished with this dream, we melt into nothingness and unite as one? As one mind and one being without any sense of self? Thanksmuch!
Kerri
QuoteI wonder if you have truely realized what you say? Cause if you do, then you must be completly free and happy I suppose (this is not meant ironically). So would you say you are completly in peace and happyness all the time?
Constant happiness doesn't arise as a result of self realisation.
The world around doesn't magically change into a paradise, nasty things still happen, there is adversity, lack, loss, grief, joy, boredom...
What changes is the way one relates and perceives these things. They cease to be the all-important absolutes we usually take them to be and become members in a vast flow of transient states. They gain in value as one sees them as the inevitable consequence of a reality where the illusion still rules. Now I am sad, so I cry. Then I see a beautiful woman and I smile. I'm hungry so I find food but if I'm full I walk past it.
To say one is happy all the time is like saying one is never hungry. The very expectation is an attachment to a state of being in itself. It excludes half of infinity by denying the possibility of being sad.
Realisation rips one out of that expectation of being this or that and plant one in being this now, and then being that then. Neither state inherently being better or worse than the other because both are perfect expressoins of just expressing one's True Nature.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
QuoteCan you recommend a very simple book about taoism?
There is also "The Te of Piglet" if you haven't read that. But my all time favorite is "Backward Down the Path" by Jerry O. Dalton. It's the Tao Te Ching, but each passage is followed by a paraphrase of what it means, a "for thought", and a "for action". And the actual Tao Te Ching translation is the best one I've ever read.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0893342238/qid=1137967819/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2144418-5600617?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
I go through periods where I read one passage every day in the mornings and think about it periodically during the day. There are 81 passages.
Here's a random one that goes with what I had to say before:
Number 33 - Overcoming Self
One who understands others is knowledgeable.
One who understands oneself is enlightened.
One who overcomes others has power.
One who overcomes oneself has inner strength.
One who is content is wealthy.
One who perseveres has constancy of purpose.
One who maintains one's position in life endures.
One who dies, but is not forgotten has longevity.
QuoteI do, however, feel like I know I exist. Do you think you might be able to go into that a bit more? Is it the existance as a separate self and identity that we cling to? Is it existence in general? Do you think when we are finished with this dream, we melt into nothingness and unite as one? As one mind and one being without any sense of self? Thanksmuch!
Those attachments (likes,dislikes,opinions, etc.) are what create the idea of a separate self. So all those attachments ARE the self, just as a bunch of individual parts create a car. So we cling to a self identity or attachments which gives the illusion of self and other. When you say "when we are finished with this dream, we melt into nothingness and unite as one? " do you mean after we die or just when enlightenment occurs? This is a hard question to answer properly. If you are talking after death, it wouldn't be right to say we do anything or go anywhere, as there is nothing to go anywhere or become anything. If one is not awakened the illusion will persist until one awakens, this is where the law of karma comes into play. Imagine the true nature is like a blank white screen the illusion is like a movie projected onto that screen, karma is the film going into the projector, as long as we keep comitting karma we will keep feeding film into the projector keeping that movie playing.
It wouldn't seem right to say "unite as one" either because there were never two to begin with, so no union can take place. Though it may seem to be a union and sounds like a good way to describe it, you can say after union occurs you realize there really wasn't a union that took place, but that you were already one and just didn't realize it.
I like what jilola wrote. I like to think of the true nature as a mountain, solid, still and unmoving and our thoughts, emotions, physical sensations as a river. In our ignorance we are caught up in the river, trying to catch the waves and hold them, but we just end being swept away by the current. Eventually we get tired of that river and get out and climb the mountain. When we rest atop the mountain we are at peace, still, and unmoving, but that doesn't mean the river no longer flows. The river continuous to flow as always, only thing is that were not in there trying to catch the waves, getting swept up by the current. We just watch the river flow by from our mountain top view.
Here is what I wrote about consciousness in the integral philosophy forum, it really has allot to do with this topic.
When you pop a candy in your mouth the sensation of taste arises. Now that taste is something totally other than the candy and tongue. Taste only comes into existence when the candy and tongue make contact. Like man and women have sex and create a child, that child comes into being dependent on the contact of man and women, but the child is its own unique thing. Taste is the child of the tongue and the candy. Hearing is the child of sound vibrations and the ear. Feeling is the child of the body and an object. Smelling is the child of the nose and an aroma. Seeing is the child of the eye and an object.
Tasting is an aspect of our awareness, hearing is an aspect of our awareness, feeling is an aspect of our awareness, smelling is an aspect of our awareness, seeing is an aspect of our awareness. The total accumulation of all those aspects is our awareness. Awareness is the child of the senses and reality.
Awareness is all there is, no way around it. You can point to anything you want or describe anything you want, but all you are doing is pointing to awareness. A mirror(senses) contacts an object (reality) and there arises the reflection(awareness). The reflection is its own thing, it is not the mirror neither is it the object being reflected. For you to identify yourself with an observer, saying "This here is me, the observer." that would be like the reflection identifying itself as the mirror. Identifying anything as yourself is deluding yourself (I know that sounds like a contradiction, ahhh the limitations of language.) Really, there is nothing to identify yourself with. You are awareness, nothing else. Actually there is no you to be awareness. It just is.
Now here is something I had thought of after having come to my conclusions on consciousness.What about the consciousness of others? I do believe in the existence of other realms of existence, now in all these realms with all these beings that exist, no matter how big or how small or how intelligent or how dumb that no matter what, they too are also awareness. Even if some being has a thousand senses, can sense things a human couldn't even comprehend, that being too is nothing other than awareness, even a being with the most tiniest of sensory input would also just be awareness. Now in all the infinite cosmos there is only one reality that all beings are a part of and that is awareness. Its not even that all beings are apart of this awareness, there really are no beings to begin with, just one awareness. To believe in the existence of other beings you would have to believe in your separate self existence.
This is a little story I came up with to explain our situation.
There was a body of water and one day for some unknown reason a desire had arises within that water, a desire to be wet. So the water began searching for wetness, he tried everything imaginable to attain this wetness, he tried and tried and tried but failed every time, so he tried and tried some more until it became a deep habit. This habit became so deep that the water didn't even know what it was searching for anymore, it blindly tried to attain wetness, it became his second nature. Then one day the waters eyes opened a little, he saw how crappy his situation was, always trying o be wet but can never achieve it. He saw now that the cause for all his misery was this constant search for wetness, so he decided then and there that life would be much nicer if he just stopped trying to be wet. But the problem is he can't stop, the habit is so deep, when his mind slips he's at it again, trying to be wet. So he concentrates really hard, always watching himself and whenever he catches himself trying to be wet, he stops, he does this for a long time until one day he breaks the habit completely. He no longer tries to be wet and in that very instant he realizes "Wait a second, I'm already wet. My very nature IS wetness, and all this time I was trying to be what I already was."
All he can do then is just laugh at his own foolishness.
Wow this is allot of stuff here. I hope you have the patience to read it all. If you need me to clarify anything or don't agree with something let me know. I like to hear and learn from anyones thoughts an ideas.
there are no universals, for we are the universal.
we are not all love, we are not all joy, we are not all hate, we are what we observe with our conscious minds, be it color, shape, emotion, or pure thought.
we did, indeed, create reality, for we are reality.
i really dont know why it keeps going on, this reality, it is all so pointless, but on the other hand, the alternative is nothing.
im just along for the ride, to see where we'll take it. im not fond of the current path humanity is on, but it seems to be getting better :)