What is Forgiveness?

[kakkarot]

as far as i am concerned, forgiving someone means that you don't hold the wrong they've committed against them. so if someone hurts you, to forgive them means you don't punish them for it, you don't hold a grudge against them, and you don't treat them any differently then you did before they hurt you.

to truly forgive someone is more than just no punishing them, and it seems that a lot of people have an incredibly difficult time truly forgiving others since the pain is still there and forgivness means you can't blame anyone for it.

~kakkarot

[rachael]

Forgiveness
I think everyone will always feel some what different about that subject based on their own experiances.
I've always been a forgiving person towards the ones I love. More so because I dont pass judgement. I never really cared what society thinks, its all about who I am. I think a lot of times people think they shouldnt forgive because they believe a person wouldnt do something to hurt them if they really loved and cared about them.
To me, thats not true. Thats when you look at yourself. How many mistakes we all made and hurt others. Thats what growing and learning is all about. Then people worry, if I forgive, what will people think of me? does this mean it was ok what they did???

I forgive. I also do forget. I just never keep people in my life, that I dont love.

Rachael

[Nagual]

IMO, forgiveness and its best friend "I'm sorry" are open doors to wrong doings...  Does that makes sense?

Way too many times people will do something bad/wrong and follow that with a pitiful "I am sorry, forgive me!"  And then, everything is supposed to be ok.  I think that 99% of these bad/wrong doings could be avoided with people making real efforts to control themselves.  How many times did I hear "Bah, I'm sorry, I had a bad day"... [V]

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by Nagual

IMO, forgiveness and its best friend "I'm sorry" are open doors to wrong doings...  Does that makes sense?

Way too many times people will do something bad/wrong and follow that with a pitiful "I am sorry, forgive me!"  And then, everything is supposed to be ok.  [V]

I can see where you're coming from, however, I believe you may have never experienced True Forgiveness.  In the words of Eleanor Roosevelt, what I am saying is this:

Nobody can ever make you feel inferior without your consent.

— Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962).

This means that yes people can make hurtful remarks, however this is saying much more about their own feelings about themselves than it is the person who they are directing their attack.  The world is our mirror and we see in others exactly what we perceive in ourselves.  If someone accuses you or identifies something in you, it has more to do with their own self perception of themselves than it does you.  If you accept their evaluation as your truth, then they have identified something in you that you have either consciously or subconsciously accepted as your truth (perhaps something that you are trying to dissociate from yourself.)  The reason you feel pain associated with their "wrongdoing" is because you believe it to be true.  If you did not believe it to be true, you would just let it roll off of your back and assume the person is just a big grump or having a bad day.

--Kerri

[Avalon]

I understand perfectly what you are saying Lighthouse and therefore I agree.

That talk show host didn't happen to be a woman doctor, did it?

I forgive to release myself from pain, in doing so, I also release the wrong doer from guilt.  It's a freeing experience on both sides.

[Ceriel N]

The act of forgiving is an act of love.

[beavis]

This is what I think forgiving means:

You did something bad to me. But I understand how you are different from me, and how that caused you to think it was the best option to do something bad to me. If I were you, in the same situation, having the same state of mind and past experiences, I would have done the same thing. So I cant hate you for doing something I would have done.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by Avalon



That talk show host didn't happen to be a woman doctor, did it?

Indeed...

I believe, however, that she is in need of being forgiven herself.  I believe she has experienced great pain and is still living with that pain which is why she responded to the caller in that way.  She answered to the best of her ability given her experience and life circumstances.

[bomohwkl]

Can you forgive someone if you don't understand why he/she hurt you?
Probably it would be difficult.

[Nagual]

What I was trying to say is that too many people abuse from forgiveness...  They don't make enough efforts to "behave".  If they do something wrong, no big deal, they will just say sorry and it's ok.  And most of the time they say sorry for their own "sake".  They want you to say "I forgive you" so that they will feel good.

If something is bad, don't do it.  Period.  If you had a bad day, it's no reason to yell after your friend that did nothing to you.  It's all about respect and control.  I know nobody's perfect (I'm not) but too many people are just too lazy to make efforts.

Also, IMO, nature itself does not really appear to be forgiving...  If you mess up something, it's messed up.  So why act different with people?  Because there is a way to abuse the system...  To abuse their friendliness.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by bomohwkl

Can you forgive someone if you don't understand why he/she hurt you?
Probably it would be difficult.

This is where self analysis would come in.  The reason you are hurt by that persons words or actions or is it because you believe what they said to be true, thereby exposing what you believe to be a flaw of yours... exposing your perceived weakness.  

For example, when I was in high school, I was trying to keep my mouth shut regarding an argument between 2 of my friends.  One of my friends perceived that through my quiet, I was taking sides of the other person.  Through his insecurity, he made up this huge scenario in his mind that I was somehow against him and out to get him.  The next thing I knew, I was being threatened by this other girl who I had never seen before and being told that if I didn't leave this guy alone, she was going to push me through a window.   (so much for trying not to get involved in this dispute between these two)

I am normally not the type of person who can keep her mouth shut, however, I cared for both of these people and really wanted to stay out of it.  I would usually walk my friend to his next class (the one who sicked the girl on me) because I had 2 study halls back to back and we were usually in mid conversation by the time the bell rang  and Seniors (we were seniors) were given more liberty to roam the halls than others.  (but I digress)

The day that he sicked this girl on me, I didn't see him during my first study hall and when the bell rang, I went straight to his class (the one I usually walked him to) and yelled to him, "If you have a problem with me, you say it to my face, don't go get some bulldog to threaten me because you think I'm taking sides when I'm not."  With that, I walked out of the room.  

2 seconds later, my friend Jackie yelled down the hall, "OOOOO, Kerri, He just called you a transvestite!"  At the time, I thought it was laughable that he would choose this insult.  My own sexuality was never something that I was insecure about, regarding my femininity.  Had he called me a fat whale, i would have been hurt, however, the Transvestite thing just didn't stirr up anything in me.  I did, however have a very short, modern haircut and I suppose some people may have seen that as unfeminine.  

After we graduated from high school, I found out that he had become a hair stylist.  Now I have nothing against male stylists, in fact, my own stylist is a man who I have and will travel hundreds of miles just to have my hair done by him.  However, there is a stereotype that if you are a man and a stylist, you are gay.  My stylist is not and I do not know whether this other person is, however, I suspect that something he had been struggling with was his own sexuality and how it relates to his identity.  His Transvestite comment was saying more about his own insecurities than it was saying about me.  Since I was secure enough with my own femininity, it didn't stick, however, if I were not secure with my own sexuality, it would have stuck.  Additionally, had he called me a fat whale, it also would have stuck because that was my identified character flaw at the time.  

Make sense?  People can only hurt us if we identify with the insult. If we feel the insult is not representative of us, we will just laugh it off.

(One more note... I am not gay bashing here, I have and have had many friends who have been homosexual, I believe we are all here to learn lessons in love, in the most comfortable way we feel we can express and feel that love but that is for another topic)



--Kerri

[Meedan]

quote:Originally posted by Lighthouse
Make sense?  People can only hurt us if we identify with the insult. If we feel the insult is not representative of us, we will just laugh it off.

I think you're forgetting physical attacks, bomohwkl could have meant that. It IS harder to forgive when you don't know why someone has chosen to hurt you, but it is still very possible. Finding a part of you that can love and forgive (eg.) someone who has killed a member of your family is difficult, but something that can and should be achieved.

[Lighthouse]

I suppose, then that is entering another whole bowl of wax... for another topic.  I don't believe in death (or sin) I believe we live in this physical plane in order to learn the lessons that can be learned through separation and our bodies.  If there were no such thing as death, would it matter if someone "killed" or physically hurt another?  If we continued living afterwards and could not be weakened, wounded or killed, would it then be easier to to forgive something?  Forgiveness as I understand it is recognizing that nothing can be done to you, you can not die or be weakened.  These things are all in the mind and a manifestation of our choice to experience separation in the physical plane.

I know, it may seem like a stretch to some but this is what I believe to be the truth.

--Kerri

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by Nagual

What I was trying to say is that too many people abuse from forgiveness...  They don't make enough efforts to "behave".  If they do something wrong, no big deal, they will just say sorry and it's ok.  And most of the time they say sorry for their own "sake".  They want you to say "I forgive you" so that they will feel good.

but on the other hand to be forgiving does not mean that you fail to recognize that someone is a bad person, or that they do bad things, and it does not stop you from trying to help them overcome such tendancies.

forgiving is merely the act of not holding someone guilty of a wrong they've committed. it doesn't mean that you have to let them continue commiting those wrongdoings, nor does it mean that you can't help them understand why what they are doing is wrong.

to forgive someone does not mean that you try to make up excuses for their behaviour, it does not mean that you turn a blind eye to their actions, and it does not mean that you allow them to hurt you again and again and again.

in my previous post i said: "and you don't treat them any differently then you did before they hurt you" but i was slightly off. i should have added "until they try and hurt you again. then you should stop them from hurting you."

~kakkarot

[lifebreath]

Here's one illustration of forgiveness:

The air was filled with keen expectation--and a joy which was contagious. Looking like doves of peace, hundreds upon hundreds of light grey pigeons, sat on fountains, window sills, and roof statues all around the square. Like a sweet fragrance, their gentle cooing drifted through the air.

Suddenly the crowd burst into cheers, as Pope John Paul II was driven into sight. Cameras flashed, as the smiling Pope stood in his open-air "Popemobile." He waved blessings to the crowd and embraced little children lifted up to him. As the Popemobile slowly made its way around the crowded square, a forest of eager hands reached out to the Pope. Tragically, one of those hands held a gun!

Shots rang out! The gentle pigeons scattered in fright. Severely wounded, the Pope fell backwards in intense pain. His white robes showed the spreading red stain of his own blood.

Time passed--weeks, then months. The Pope survived. The open-air Popemobile was replaced, by a new vehicle which completely enclosed the Pope in thick sheets of bullet proof glass. This was a sad step to take. But it was taken because people did not forget. Rather, they remembered and learned from the assassination attempt.

Time passed--in fact, a whole 2.5 years passed. It was now a chilly early morning on December 23, 1983. Dressed in his crisp white robes, the Pope sat in a bare, white-walled prison cell in Rome. Seated before him, knee-to-knee, was his would-be assassin. Unshaven and clad in blue jeans, this man was now a prisoner, convicted with a life sentence. The Pope looked into the eyes of this man who tried to kill him. Then, leaning forward, the Pope took the man's hands in his own--and he forgave him.

In forgiving, the Pope let go of the burden of pain in his own heart. The Pope refused to chain his life, to the terrible nightmare the gunman had created. In forgiving, the Pope let the grace of a forgiving God shine through his life. In forgiving, the Pope opened up a door to personal reconciliation--which the gunman could walk through, if he ever became truly penitent.

How does one know when true forgiveness has taken place? More than just words, true forgiveness takes place in the heart. It begins on that day when we no longer carry ill will toward the person who hurt us. And so it was with John Paul II. He emerged from that prison cell, calling the prisoner his "brother." This Pope forgave graciously, in a way that is a model for all people. But consider this: the Pope did not forgive and forget. Rather, what he did was remember and forgive.

For example: The Pope did not try to pretend the shooting didn't happen, or that it didn't really hurt. It happened and it hurt him a great deal! The Pope did not suggest, in any way, that the shooting was not evil. In fact, it was terribly evil! And the Pope did not try to get the prisoner released from prison. Although forgiven by his victim, the man still bore responsibility for his act. There were consequences from his act, he still had to face.

in an article in Time magazine, inspired by Pope John Paul's forgiveness of his would-be assassin, journalist Lance Morrow wrote, "The psychological case for forgiveness is overwhelmingly persuasive. Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past, by old grievances that do not permit life to proceed with new business.

"Not to forgive is to yield oneself to another's control. If one does not forgive, then one is controlled by the other's initiatives and is locked into a sequence of act and response, of outrage and revenge, tit for tat, escalating always. The present is endlessly overwhelmed and devoured by the past."

To forgive is to become free from the past. It allows the person forgiving to let go of resentment that binds, and it opens the door for the forgiven (except in certain cases, like if the person has died) to experience love in a way that is unique and that can transform, if they are open to it.

I was struck yesterday, while I watched some news coverage of the serial killer who was just convicted for killing all those women over the span of many years. He was addressed by over 40 family members of victims. Their statements, for obvious reasons mostly filled with anger and the desire for revenge, were met by the killer's apparently blank stare.

Then came an older man, the father of a victim, who, though obviously deeply greived, addressed the killer with forgiveness. He told the killer that he forgave him, because he had learned forgiveness from Jesus. At that point, the killer began to weep. I don't know what long term impact that will have on the killer, but you could see the profound contrast of the inner healing in the father compared to the bitterness and resentment that bound many of the other victims' relatives who did not yet have the capacity to forgive.

Forgiveness, for me, must be an everyday attitude. To have a love within, that I have found in God, to "bless those who curse me" as Jesus said, and to let go of the anger and resentment that can so easily slowly build up into a casket, bringing the death of my soul and choking off the life of God within.

[Meedan]

I agree lifebreath, love (and forgiveness) seem to be the best things to feel/project in any situation. There seem to be NO circumstances where these feelings can bring ANY harm or negative consequences. This is one of the most important lessons for everyone to learn in the universe.

[Dark Knight]

When you're wronged, annihilated, destroyed, ruined, forgiveness enables one to transcend all the horror, so it's not the end. Forgiveness also provides freedom for the wrongdoer to grow and change, so they are not stuck at "offender level and psyche"...unless they choose to be. If chosen, the wrongdoer needs to be held accountable and responsible until the behavior changes, but still forgiven to allow for that change to take place.

Without forgiveness, evil can defeat God, and I will never believe that.

[The AlphaOmega]

In my opinion forgiveness is most helpful to the person forgiving, not the person being forgiven.  When you carry around anger or resentment towards someone it can hinder your daily life or progression.  Letting go of negativity opens so many doors to a better future self.  But I find that most people have a limit on forgiveness, which should not be the case.  Some things are forgivable, while others simply aren't, is the most common attitude towards the subject.  It's only untill you can truly forgive everything that you will be set free.  Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to remain in a bad situation though.  You can forgive a friend for doing something terrible, but you are not required to stay friends with them, if that makes sense.  Ask yourself how much you really can forgive though.  Is there anyone out there who would forgive Hitler, or Jeffrey Dahmer?  If anyone can say yes to that then you have truly reached a better level of humanity then most, because in doing so you have chosen to live with no negativity.

[Dark Knight]

Given that I have been a type of Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer in at least one of my past lives, yes I can forgive them. I would want someone to forgive me so that I could transcend and become something better (besides, the stories I'm hearing about the Hitler entity, if true, his suffering is going to last "just a little while"...he is paying heavily for everything he did. I forgive him, and relish in the justice being handed out to him with grim satisfaction).

Forgiveness does benefit the perp...if the perp makes the choice to change, the perp will need the support, faith, and understanding of others for that change to take place. That's what forgiveness provides, a second chance to acknowledge, validate, and correct the evil perpetrated to the victim. Don't give this to a perp that wants to change...you push the perp outside of creation (the creation that treats life with respect...all the rules of existence apply to everyone and everything else except the perp). The perp cannot grow, change, and create, and the Creator instilled a little drive in all of us to do just that...you can't kill that inside a person (ask the Israelis and Palestinians...they try doing that to each other all the time. Doesn't work because they cannot defeat God. So it gets worse for them instead. The Creator will have His way.). The perp will get worse because the drive cannot be fulfilled, probably re-offend at a level worse than before.

That's karma telling us our responsiblities in this world and showing us the mirror to our souls. Yes, you are your brother's keeper whether you believe it or not.

Don't believe me...wait until you become the Hitler or Dahmer, which happens to all souls that incarnate and reincarnate eventually.

[Lighthouse]

I think it is very interesting the different opinions people have about the topic of Forgiveness. I guess I do not understand the overall meaning of the term that we as a society choose to define it as being.

I recently heard a popular radio talk show host responding to a callers question about whether to forgive or not to forgive. The talk show host then gave a dissertation about certain conditions that must be met in order to allow yourself to forgive. I was completely appalled.

Only twice in my life have I experienced what I consider True Forgiveness. In both cases, it was the most amazing experience I have ever had. Both times, I understood that the people who I thought had done something wrong to me were merely showing me the context to understand what I had already been thinking... The negativity that I had been carrying around shown to me within the context of my experience.  

Additionally, for weeks and months afterwards, I was in an almost complete state of euphoria because of the burden that was lifted from my mind. The first time, immediately after it hit me, I started jumping around my living room and thanking those who I thought had hurt me.  The second time, I actually wrote a letter to the person who I thought hurt me all those years ago and told him to please never feel guilty about any of our interactions because he gave me the greatest gift I could receive through our painful interactions.  He showed me that I was not being loving towards MYSELF.

It is my belief that our thoughts come first and through our thoughts, we draw certain experiences to ourselves in order to provide us with Context to understand what we are thinking. Without this context, it is very difficult to identify the types of messages we are constantly telling ourselves and others.

For example, in my Uncovering the Divine Within workshop, www.healingcenter.com, I talk about how several people told me I was fat as a child. Had I believed that this was false to begin with, these experiences would not have had an affect on me. However, since I identified with being fat to begin with, these experiences had a sharp sting to them and I used the experiences to validate my already held beliefs about myself and further rejected myself because of these experiences.

Once I realized that I held the beliefs about myself first, I understood that these experiences were actually gifts. If I used the experience to understand what I had already been thinking, I could then change my thoughts about myself and change my experience. The gift was the context of the experience. These people all showed me what I had been rejecting and what I needed to change within my thinking in order to accept myself completely and unconditionally.

That said, how is it that there can be any conditions attached to forgiveness? Fogiveness is not something to be taken lightly and is not some "feel good solution" to allow someone else off the hook for doing us wrong. It is more about allowing ourselves to look deeper and understand the experience as a window into ourselves and out thoughts. It really has nothing to do with the person who has done the offence, but the person who has received the message, whether we perceive that as being good or bad.

If this is the truth, and I believe it to be so, why is it that people feel we need to set conditions in order to forgive people.  Certainly it is very painful when we feel someone has placed their pain upon us, however, if we look a little deeper, I believe that it is really ourselves who we need to forgive.  

Are there any thoughts out there on this?