Persoanlly I believe consciousness enters the foetus when the foetus grows its first ever brain cell.
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestus
Persoanlly I believe consciousness enters the foetus when the foetus grows its first ever brain cell.
And at what stage during the pregancy does that happen? A couple months?
Hi Phil,
This topic really doesn't have to do with OBE discussions so it has been moved to the Spiritual Development forum. Feel free to PM me if you have a different forum in mind.
Very best,
Why does it matter when consciousness enters? If its only been there a short time, it wont care if it has to leave and find an other body. It has almost no time invested in the body.
Edgar Cayce believed that the spirit entered the baby upto 24 hours before or after birth.
According to the tibetans and DMT-scientist Rick Strassman
49 days after the fetus has been made, when the pineal gland starts to produce DMT.
Greetings everyone,
This is a topic where there seems to a wide range of opinions even outside of the Astral Pulse [:)]
My own view is a Spirit enters a foetus at the moment of conception. Remember, the physical brain is not the organ of connection and communication with the higher spheres, or where memory is maintained, it is merely an organic super-computer necessary to control the physical body. I also believe the Spirit travels backwards and forwards to the higher spheres, the Astral or Mental worlds depending on where he or she is incarnating from frequently during pregnancy, just as the Astral and Mental bodies leave the physical during sleep. I suppose the Spirit returns to check everything is proceeding alright. I also believe these journeys to and from the new body become less and less frequent nearer to birth.
If this is correct, the moment of conception is also the time when a "new Soul" gains its individuality as the new spark of Spirit descends from the Logos to its first human physical life in preparation for commencing the journey back along the sacred path.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Adrian. Nicely said. Sounds like a very feasible idea to me, especially with what timeless said.
Hmmm, interesting topic and sure to be controversial, esp with the abortion debate and so on.
I've always thought that if re-inacrnation is a fact then the hang ups about abortion would not be nearly as bad. The worries about abortion seem to stem from the belief that an individual has one life only, making it all the more precious.
However, if we knew at what point an individual entered the 'body', that would help (assuming re-incarnation is a fact).
Interestingly, the notion that the spirit is present or indeed is created at conception is a relativly newer concpet of catholicism, this being decided around the 10th or 11th century I believe. I'm sure Thomas Aquinas has something to do with this, but I might be wrong, someone might want to check it out!
It seems to me that this change was made to reinforce the belief in 'one life only' as promoted by christianity. Think about it; if it was not clear when the spirit arrived and some might have speculated that it arrived after several months and so on, this would get people questioning just *where* this spirit came from- not a good idea as far as the church is concerned. Therefore the 'present at conception' idea neatly tidies up this dangerous area, as now the physical act can be seen as being the absolute starting point of life (with god's help of course).
Because catholics seem to get particularily hung up about this area they tend to be the most rampant anti abortionists.
You can probably tell that I am pro-abortion. My ex-girlfriend was not.
She says that her mother almost had an abortion but was 'persuaded' not to by the catholic church, which my girlfriend is thankful for as without them 'she would never have been born'.
When I pointed out that its not a major problem as she may well have been born somewhere else instead (my re-incarnation belief), she did not take kindly; probably why she's my EX-girlfriend hehe!
Just pointing out that if re-incarnation turns out to be true then a lot of heat would be removed from this debate (or raging argument in some circles!)
Douglas
I agree with Adrian, so I will not repeat what he has said.
quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
Hmmm, interesting topic and sure to be controversial, esp with the abortion debate and so on.
I've always thought that if re-inacrnation is a fact then the hang ups about abortion would not be nearly as bad. The worries about abortion seem to stem from the belief that an individual has one life only, making it all the more precious.
However, if we knew at what point an individual entered the 'body', that would help (assuming re-incarnation is a fact).
Interestingly, the notion that the spirit is present or indeed is created at conception is a relativly newer concpet of catholicism, this being decided around the 10th or 11th century I believe. I'm sure Thomas Aquinas has something to do with this, but I might be wrong, someone might want to check it out!
It seems to me that this change was made to reinforce the belief in 'one life only' as promoted by christianity. Think about it; if it was not clear when the spirit arrived and some might have speculated that it arrived after several months and so on, this would get people questioning just *where* this spirit came from- not a good idea as far as the church is concerned. Therefore the 'present at conception' idea neatly tidies up this dangerous area, as now the physical act can be seen as being the absolute starting point of life (with god's help of course).
Because catholics seem to get particularily hung up about this area they tend to be the most rampant anti abortionists.
You can probably tell that I am pro-abortion. My ex-girlfriend was not.
She says that her mother almost had an abortion but was 'persuaded' not to by the catholic church, which my girlfriend is thankful for as without them 'she would never have been born'.
When I pointed out that its not a major problem as she may well have been born somewhere else instead (my re-incarnation belief), she did not take kindly; probably why she's my EX-girlfriend hehe!
Just pointing out that if re-incarnation turns out to be true then a lot of heat would be removed from this debate (or raging argument in some circles!)
Douglas
Douglas, I disagree with your reasoning on abortion. So what if reincarnation is a reality. Why does that make it ok to stop one's incarnation this time around? My soul might be eternal, but I might have had big plans for this incarnation. Maybe I was going to bring about world peace, but oops screw that idea. Clearly the idea of reincarnation devalues life to some, but to me it changes nothing. Each incarnation on the physical is as important as if we only get one chance. Life is precious reguardless of what form it takes. Using your reasoning I could say it is ok to go around killing who ever I wish because they will just come back again anyway so it is no big deal.
fallnangel "So what if reincarnation is a reality. Why does that make it ok to stop one's incarnation this time around?"
Because they can get an other incarnation and continuing the current one causes a lot of trouble:
getting fat
paying and losing freedom for 18 years
changing diapers
getting almost no sleep the first few years
vagina is stretched
hours of pain at birth
The baby cant pay for itsself or do much else. It has no right to require somebody else to do that for it. It also has no right to damage its moms vagina.
"My soul might be eternal, but I might have had big plans for this incarnation. Maybe I was going to bring about world peace, but oops screw that idea."
The replacement incarnation could do something better or worse.
I was told that if a woman gets an abortion that their will be a hole (for lack of a better word) in her aura for the rest of her life.
Peace,
Paul
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Well, I certainly don't believe that one! Whether you are for or against abortion, the above statement sounds seriously suspect!
I actually agree with Fallen angel about my earlier post though.
What I really mean about abortion is that IMO, it should be treated on a case by case basis. To say flat out that it is wrong 100% of the time or even right 100% of the time is not the right way to go about this.
It really depends on the situation, ie cases of rape etc where I think that it is the woman's right to decide and screw what anyone else says; it is her body and she didnt ask for it.
Anyway, this is far from the fetus question; I really have no idea, although it really doesnt seem to make sense IMO for a spirit to hang around for nine months from a few cells to a fully formed baby; it would surely be more likely for it to intigrate itself at a much later stage of development.
Some occultists have even speculated that the spirit enters a few days AFTER birth! I don't know about that one; that would mean that a new born baby is still on 'automatic pilot' for the first few days.. great.
Regards,
Douglas
quote:
I was told that if a woman gets an abortion that their will be a hole (for lack of a better word) in her aura for the rest of her life.
Peace,
Paul
Maybe this "hole" is the reflextion of the woman's feelings on the abortion later and not caused by the actual act. Something that is rarely talked about is the effect that aboration has on the woman's emotional state. I have read articles where most women who were studied had emotional problems because of having an aboration. I have spoken with a few and they all felt really bad about doing it later, probably to the point where they need to get some counceling. They may still feel it was the best choice, but it still effected them deeply emotionally.
quote:
What I really mean about abortion is that IMO, it should be treated on a case by case basis. To say flat out that it is wrong 100% of the time or even right 100% of the time is not the right way to go about this.
I will agree that it should be a case by case basis and that it is not 100% right or wrong. I am actually torn in two directions on the issue. It is each person's choice, so unless it is my choice I will not worry too much about it.
That is interesting about about the mothers experiencing the spirit of their child before birth, or even conception.
Interesting post, pmlonline. Thanks for posting it.
Other women's opinions huh?
Well, I do believe that a person has the right to do whatever they want to their own bodies (free will and all). Personally, I don't think I could or would ever have an abortion. But that's my own opinion. I do however, have a problem with 'late term' pregnancies. If you've gone 7 or 8 months, in my mind, you've made a commitment. If you don't want it, put it up for adoption, but don't abort after that amount of time and development. (ok, so maybe I'm on the fence?)
I do have 3 children of my own. Unfortunately I'm not as 'sensing' as timeless and others here. I don't remember feeling the soul/spirit enter or leave my body. But I can tell you that pregnancy and nursing were my absolute most favorite times of being a woman. The feeling of another life within your own is beyond my ability for words. ANd the closeness and tenderness of nursing is similar.
I remember playing games with my kids while pregnant. They would stick a foot or heel out so that it protrudes like a bump on my belly. Then I would rub it (or tickle it as I called it). They would pull it back in a second, and then stick it back out again..........ok, that's my trip down memory lane.
I sought some spiritual advice when I was having some trouble finding my own independence. I was told that I had attempted life in my family before but was miscarried. I finally was born years later and as a result I had a strong desire to please people (which was true). I asked my mother and she had miscarried before. I think in the end we all have plan that we stick to so I am not bothered by abortion and so on...A soul will always find a way :)
Greetings everyone,
On the subject of abortion there are two perspectives, the physical and the Spiritual.
From a physical point of view I believe abortion is murder. From the moment of concepetion a fetus has the potential to develop for 9 months and be born to fulfil his or her time on Earth just as everyone else can. Those who support abortion seem to have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude whereby just because they cannot physically see a baby, they think it is alright to kill it. This, to me, is humanity at its worst whereby murder of visible human beings is a serious criminal offense, but murder of unborn babies is legal. From a physical perspective, those involved in abortion are creating serious karma for themselves. Of course, there are always special medical cases to consider, but these are rare. As for the "pro-choice" lobby; to use abortion as birth control is both reprehensible and wrong. Everyone has the choice of using proper birth control.
Now from a Spiritual point of view, the incarnating Spirit might already know he or she will be aborted, in which case they chose the situation to experience it as a part of progression. This does not excuse those involved in the abortion however including the mother, because they cannot possibly know the wishes of the incarnating Spirit; they are rather only motivated by a selfish disregard for human life, an unborn child, arising out of their own carelessness.
With best regards,
Adrian.
I disagree with your "out of mind out of sight", its more like seeing into the future of that child and family. I dont care what anyone says, even if a spirit chooses that life path NO child should have to suffer or grow up unloved and unwanted.
And cases of rape are not caused by carelessness,
Neither is ignorance.
This is a touchy issue that always brings about long arguments, and from my experience no one ever ends up changing anyone's mind on this issue :P
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Gee! Where are all the women?
Yeah, i want more female perspective here too !!
err....sorry timeless, I'm actually a bloke.
anyway, i reckon the mind/soul enters the fetus at conception.
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Interestingly, I only had this experience once. I did not have it when I had my miscarriages. So, ? makes me wonder.
...this made me think... I wonder if a spirit (e.g. you dreamt of that bright spirit) could contact a mother-to-be, or father for that matter, before the whole conception business gets underway ?
The issue will never be resolved, because it is too complex. Both sides are right, for instance. They just don't understand the bigger picture, and therefore disregard the truths of the other side, and that's about it.
Yes, abortion is murder . . . regardless of whether the spirit is present, or off on the mental planes somewhere. But is murder always reprehensible? That's a moral opinion. Some say yes, I say no. In the end, we make our choices in this world and have to live with the karmic consequences. In the end, we are all one, part of the Divine All, and it's all okay. So, until we expand our awareness to join the All, we get to freely choose how we conduct ourselves in our individual, tunnel-visioned little lives. And no law on abortion should get in a woman's way of making her difficult choices.
as for consciousness... well i kinda believe that every living thing has one, whether it's a single cell creature, a blood cell running around in our veins, whatever. just different kinds of consciousness. so probably there is some sort of consciousness in the cells that make up a fetus (not necessarily the soul that will be inhabiting it soon), even before a brain develops or whatever.
abortion: i hate this subject. everytime i get involved in it, it seems i always wind up sounding like a cold-hearted bad guy, and there really is no way state things to where you don't sound like one if you are pro-choice. all i can say is that if it is made illegal, it won't stop abortions. women who don't feel the same way as the pro-lifers will go to have illegal abortions, and might even resort to dangerous procedures. it just means that we'll end up with two dead people... the mom and the baby.
i kinda agree with asunniespirit... a soul will find the way. try, try again. kinda what life is all about, i guess.
perhaps being aborted is part of that soul's experiences.... just as a grown person being murdered. this doesn't make murder or abortion right, but people are always lecturing on about how we all agree to a certain time limit in our next life before we incarnate, and i guess supposedly we know how we're gonna die. why would anyone soul choose to die in a fiery car crash? or get decapitated and eaten by a serial killer, with their body parts kept as souvenirs and garments? perhaps because in the end, what happens to our bodies really doesn't matter. it's the experience, the lesson we were supposed to get out of it. and if we choose to live as a fetus that soon gets aborted, then that seems like the choice that the mother makes is not really her choice.... it was preordained or something. whew, this stuff is confusing. so then the choices we make in our lives... are they really choices?
i'm not saying that i particularly believe this, i'm still pretty confused when it comes to this kinda stuff... just throwing this idea out there. i have yet to figure out what to believe about anything.
i tend to lean toward pro-choice, but at the same time there is a guilt over it because people act like i'm just a cold-hearted person with no regard for life. but that is simply not true.. i have much regard for life.. i can't even get myself to kill bugs in my house without feeling bad. i usually make every effort to catch it and put it outside. and i know i'd feel bad if i aborted a fetus. but then at the same time, i know i'd have what i'd feel is a justification... i wouldn't want to give the kid a life of not really being wanted because i have other self-centered concerns that i feel are important. or give it up to adoption, when there are so many kids already waiting to be adopted, and infertile couples are mainly intent on having their own genetically-related kids. it's so damned complicated. i know i'm probably gonna regret saying all this stuff, 'cause i've probably ticked someone off, but like i said, i'm not sure what to think of all this. it's mainly my train of thought at the moment, and not really my set-in-stone personal beliefs. death is part of life, though, and whether it's a "justified" death, a horrible evil death, a natural death, or whatever, we know that we continue on in other realm, and that life really continues on and on.
...
My personal opinion is that the physical brain acts as an aerial. It picks up our 'soul'.
Sort of like a TV, the TV picks up the radio waves via an aerial and translates it and projects the information onto a screen.
I believe our soul resides within our pysical body but the brain is the hardware for the connection between the two.
As our souls learn our body creates new neurons capable of picking up and translating this new information.
THe consciousness doesent enter the body atall at a caertain time u see we all share a singualr consciousness ( im sorry i cant speall lol) its just that the body when it grows starts to have the ability to tap into consicousness and expand it with knowledge from the world.
When we ask trivial questions about something, we trivialize the subject matter. It is important to understand the ENTIRE process of life between death and rebirth.
It is true: the family is selected for the recipient after the fetus has begun to grow. In fact, the recipient is already aware of the tradeoffs BEFORE entering the womb.
By understanding the entire process of life between death and rebirth, ALL of these questions are answered AND connected to provide a complete understanding.
I have a question. It's probably nothing but never a less curious.
When my mom was pregnant with my older sister she says she heard her crying in her womb. She was 8 or 9 months. Her mother said that it means that she will be a well behave baby. (Superstitious beliefs)
I of course don't believe this. I don't know much about pregnancy but she told me that she never heard of a mother who hears her baby crying when it's still in their bellies.
I suggest that maybe her spirit was crying from the pain of her past lives and she said that all through out her pregnancy she always felt upset and sadness while her pregnancy with me was a happy and cheerful one.
It could just be her hormones, it could be something else.
Any opinions would be appreciated.
As far as I am aware to cry one would need to be able to breath (especially in order to make sound when crying). Since a baby in the womb doesnt breath and is fed oxygen via the umbilical cord I doubt a baby could cry in the womb - the baby doesnt start breathing until it is brought out the body and has its cord cut.
I think, anyway [:P] LOL
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestus
As far as I am aware to cry one would need to be able to breath (especially in order to make sound when crying). Since a baby in the womb doesnt breath and is fed oxygen via the umbilical cord I doubt a baby could cry in the womb - the baby doesnt start breathing until it is brought out the body and has its cord cut.
I think, anyway [:P] LOL
yes but she FELT her cry. How can you explain that? I don't think a simple kick would be mistaken for a cry.
Greetings EyesOfVengeance,
quote:
Originally posted by EyesOfVengeance
yes but she FELT her cry. How can you explain that? I don't think a simple kick would be mistaken for a cry.
It might have been a Spiritual connection, i.e. telepathic communication between the mother and unborn child. Telepathy can sometimes manifest so strongly it can be heard in the mind as a physical voice, or cry in this case. Just a thought anyway.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
Originally posted by EyesOfVengeance
yes but she FELT her cry. How can you explain that? I don't think a simple kick would be mistaken for a cry.
Indegestion?[;)]
My source is Rick strassman's book DMT the spirit molecule, chapter 3. Check out
http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/chaptersummaries.html
and read what it says under the chapter "The Psychedelic Pineal"
quote:
Originally posted by Shinobi
quote:
Originally posted by DrShaman
According to the tibetans and DMT-scientist Rick Strassman
49 days after the fetus has been made, when the pineal gland starts to produce DMT.
I'm not sure of your source, but according to the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead), the personal matrix (there is no permanent soul, by Western standards) becomes attracted through karmic influences to a particular couple engaged in intercourse. Through those same sources, he/she is impelled into the woman's uterus and is born 9 months later.
The 49 days you mentioned might be related to the longest time that a normal person remains in the bardo realm after leaving their current form.
Also, I've found interesting the number of folks who feel that if re-incarnation is true, then it makes abortion a moral non-event. Wouldn't that same logic apply to the killing of a new born, or a teenager, or a full grown adult? If the moral issue is with the ending of a human life, it wouldn't make sense to differentiate just based on the clock. Would it?
Anyway great reading everyone's take on this interesting topic!
Quote from the book "The Rosicrucian Philosophy In Questions and Answers Volume I"
Definitions:
Desire body = Astral body
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DOES THE SPIRIT ENTER THE BODY AT THE TIME OF CONCEPTION OR AT THE TIME OF BIRTH?
ANSWER: It has been ascertained by clairvoyant investigation that at the time of death the spirit takes with it the forces of one little atom located in the left ventricle of the heart, which is called the seed atom, for its the nucleus or seed around which all the material in the body gathers, and every atom on the body must be capable of vibrating in unison with that seek atom. Therefore, that atom is deposited in the semen of the father some time previous to conception, and later placed in the womb of the mother. But conception is not at all identical with the time of sexual union of the parents. The impregnated spermatozoa is sometimes not imbedded in the ovum until fourteen days after the union of the parents. It is this impregnation of the ovum that may be called the time of conception, for from the moment when the impregnated ovum leaves the Fallopian tube the period of gestation commences. During the first eighteen to twenty-one days, all the work is done by the mother, but at that time the reincarnating Ego, clothed in a bell-shaped cloud of desire and mind stuff, enters the womb of the mother and the bell-shaped cloud closes at the bottom so that it is then ovoid, or egg-shaped . Then the spirit is definitely enmeshed in the flesh and cannot escape any more, but must stay with the mother until liberated by birth. In the present stage of our unfoldment, the spirit does very little CONSCIOUS work upon its coming vehicle, but it is present all the time and helps UNCONSCIOUSLY in the task of providing its instrument. This is not more remarkable than that we are able to digest our food and work our respiratory organs without being conscious of the process.
==================
Peace & Love,
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestus
quote:
Originally posted by EyesOfVengeance
yes but she FELT her cry. How can you explain that? I don't think a simple kick would be mistaken for a cry.
Indegestion?[;)]
haha ur so cruel [:D]
I personally think the soul enters somewhere between the stage when you call the 'thing' an embryo, and when you call it a fetus. I just don't think there's any point in being there any earlier, since spontaneous abortions are common at early stages.
I somewhat agree with the idea that the soul may choose to incarnate into its life, even knowing it is to be aborted. Even if it does not get to be born, I think there is something to be learned or experienced through your physical and telepathic connection to the mother.
I don't strictly believe in hard-wired fate. I think we come into life knowing that we will face certain situtations and choices. And our life and lives of others are changed based on the desicions we make.
As for the abortion thing, I cannot honestly believe that ANY mother would just trivially decide "ooh, I don't want this baby." I would think that the option should be open to her (under certain circumstances), and she should be the one who makes the ultimate desicion. As for whether it's right or wrong, legal or not...well, I really don't care about the subject enough...
According to the astral world, when does consciousness enter a fetus?
For instance, when a deceased person wants to be reincarnated, at what point of the pregnancy process does the consciousness enter the fetus? Immediately upon conception? At birth? Inbetween?