Why didn't they just say so?

[jilola]

It's because teachers are sneaky buggers.
They till your mind and plant the seed. It's then your job to find the right light and fertilizer to make it sprout.

Do you think you would have been able to grasp the information had your teacher just given it to you?

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tom]

My problem was that what I had thought were basic, low-level techniques were actually very advanced. I had been treating them as preliminary practices and getting nowhere far with them. Had my questions been answered years ago by the way I was asking them instead of by the routine formulas then yes: I would have understood the answers instead of being left with more doubts and confusion.

[jilola]

Right. Techniques are just that, techniques.
The basicness or advancedness of them is usually just the very illusion that constantly tugs us away from our true selves.
The saying that the journey is more important than the destination fails for the same reason. There is neither a destination nor a journey, only first step, one moment. And that is what matters.

But to answer the comment about misunderstanding the level or meaning of the exercises, I'm right there with you. It's so easy to separate the practise from the goal and the whole. Even the simplest of practises can become infinitely complex as one's understanding grows only to return to simple when one sees through the veil.
The pronlem goes away when one stops attaching specific meanings and expectations to the practises and treats them just as they are.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tom]

My complaint was simpler than I made it sound: my questions were not answered. Instead of being given answers, I was misled in ways that created doubts, conflicts, and even more questions. This led to delays in my practices. Now, after combining bits and pieces from various books, I have found answers to my questions that simplify everything and put the pieces into context.

[jilola]

Yah, I tend toward the complex.

Uugh, sounds strange.
Why would a teacher intentionally mislead a student? Have you discussed the matter, the sneaky buggers they are, they may have had a reason for doing it. Maybe to point out that the student can manage even without a teacher's help?
If they just didn't know and didn't admit or mislead out of spite, I'd be legging it to a safe distance.

What were your feelings when you figured it out and then after some time?

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tom]

It is true that I am unusual and that without the ability to read my mind it would not be possible to see this right away. It is also true that I tend to be very literal and precise especially when important topics are involved. When my teachers heard the questions they probably heard a few keywords and jumped to conclusions about what I was asking and about what level the answer should be given. This was very frustrating because it caused me to reach incorrect answers to my questions, to the extent that my questions had been addressed at all. Now it is a relief to have explanations for things which have troubled me for over ten years. It is allowing me to get started for real this time and in the right direction.

[jilola]

What you said about hearing keywords is so very true.
No matter how much we have learned and how far we have progressed time and again we mistake hearing for listening.
My pet peeve, one of many I'm afraid, that I've stuggled to rid myself of, is hearing without listening and then trying to cast me into a mold. It drives me up the walls when people fail to see behind my words to the message I'm trying to convey. And the worst is that it is entirely up to me not to be driven up the walls.

Ten years is a long time to row upstream but at least now you know which way to go. I hope your progress is swift and true.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[kakkarot]

then again tom, would you really feed a baby a cooked steak?

not everyone is ready for everything. even if they feel they are.

i have experienced the same thing, wanting to know "why" before i needed to. when i was told, i also understood why they didn't tell me; how it could have screwed up my learning to just go for the goal without going through the process.

~kakkarot

[Tom]

My questions were more about how to do things and where they fit in. The answers sounded like "you just do it, okay?". I would then ask "okay, but how?" and would get another "by doing it". Finally enough pieces of the puzzle have fallen into place.

[kakkarot]

ah. my bad. by why would they answer like that? did they believe that you wouldn't understand it if they told you how to do it in other terms?

~kakkarot

[kifyre]

Tom,

Please provide a booklist! You don't have to annotate it or anything, just bare bones. I'm exploring mindfulness and seamless consciousness at the moment, and I'd love to see what you've been reading.

Thanks!

Mark

[Tom]

Going to my bookshelf, I picked out four books:

"The Bardo Guidebook" by Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche, first edition, copyright 1991. Rangjung Yeshe Publications.

The word bardo applies to meditation, dream states, and daily life. It goes well beyond life between lives. The book is about awareness.

"Everyday Consciousness and Buddha-Awakening" by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche (translated and edited by Susanne Schefczyk). Snow Lion Publications, copyright 2002.

This book is important because knowing more about how the mind works helps with meditation. It also talks about the goal of Buddhist meditation.

"Aligned, Relaxed, Resilient The Physical Foundations of Mindfulness" by Will Johnson. Shambala, 2000.

This one is best, if you have to choose only one. It is the best book on mindfulness and continuity I have seen as a practical guide. I read it several times.

"Meditation The Buddhist Way of Tranquility and Insight" by Kamalashila. Windhorse Publications, 1996 (second edition). I think there is a more recent version out.

This one talks about both main forms of meditation in the Theravada tradition. It is present even in the Vajrayana, but the categories are less explicitly separated. It is best to develop both at the same time.

[kifyre]

Thanks Tom!

[Epsilon]

Tom, where did you find these teachers of yours.  It's my understanding that buddhist teachers are very few and far between.  Am I wrong or did you get lucky and find one (or more).

[Tom]

It is true that it was lucky. I live in Iowa City, Iowa, and teachers come down a couple of times per year from a monastery just south of Madison, Wisconsin. Often the teachers are actual Tibetans from Tibet. There are a couple of practicing Buddhist groups in this city. I had to choose someone to teach me (as a primary teacher) who comes to Iowa City more often than the others.

[Tom]

Recently I have been reading about advanced stages of practice in Vajrayana Buddhism and on how they fit in with everything else. This has answered many questions that my teachers have not given satisfactory answers to. It even explains the value of the first steps in the path and it explains why the middle and advanced steps are described the way they are. It has been an amazing discovery and it makes me feel so much better. My teachers have been smarter than they were letting on, and it would have been better had they just told me what I wanted to know.

The same thing is often said of parents, that as kids grow up and go out on their own they begin to see that their parents were smarter than they seemed. In my case I am still finding out how dumb my parents are.