a Creater Exist BUT...........

[mickeydeez]

If a "creator" created the universe space/time, then he cannot speak to us nor can we feel him. one cannot create time/space and live within it at the same time. So people claiming that they "feel" gods presence are nothing more than people using there imaginations. in my opinion all religions are nothing more than a lie . so called "holy books" were written by unholy human beasts ( last time i checked humans arent perfect, so how could he possibly understand something as "god". btw our souls/spirits are nothing more than energy manifest on this world . can energy be created or destroyed?? how can a "creator" create something that cannot be created??

[Nay]

Seems kind of sad to look at it that way, but that is your belief and more power to ya, but don't come looking for me when you die and find yourself standing in exactly the enviroment you think it to be...cause that is going to be mightly lonely.

Nay

[mickeydeez]

How is it sad?? enlighten me

[Logic]

You made a lot of claims without reason or evidence, when in the first case they are unprovable, ie: a creator cannot live in the space / time that it has created.

Though I think your final question is a very stimulating one:

can energy be created or destroyed?? how can a "creator" create something that cannot be created??

According to modern physics, that is impossible. So if there is some sort of "creator", by these laws it could not have created, but merely arranged, or even just imagined the organized and seemingly objective reality that we live in.

[Nay]

How is it sad?? enlighten me

Let me rephrase that.... it sounds so sad to ME.   Now you enlighten me.  And why so angry?  I know, I know, you're not yelling or anything but to be honest all I feel is anger from your posts, with a sprinkle of superiority for spice..

Nay

[mickeydeez]

I've heard of christians saying "god" dreamed the universe up while saying "god' is not a being he/she is an energy. to dream one must have a brain. the brain is not made of energy it is made of matter. So how can "god" dream?? mixed logic??

[magickdan]

Who is to say to be able to dream you have to have a brain.  Your brain is matter but with energy it wouldn't work at all, it would just be a pile of meat.  It takes energy (electrons, Neurons,...) to think.
  Your brain creates voltage although very small in the mV range it still creates it, and voltage is energy, and this is all proved. Except about the being able to dream without a brain.  
(OT sorta) If you ever watched IRobot you would see where the robots try to take over and protect the creator because of logic, but the creator foresaw and created a Robot that could dream and think and feel emotions, To save man kind from this new robot. All well you'll have to watch it to understand.

 Although I don't know why but I just had to write that sorry if it's hard to understand but it's the way my brain thinks is the best way to describe it.

[mickeydeez]

Ok my turn .. I in no way think myself better than any other human beast but i still think myself unqiue in my own way whats so bad about that??

And yes magickdan irobot was a movie created by humans . its most likely false or filled with things so far from fact, like the bible in most instanaces

Like many christians say "god" dreamed this up and yet they say "god" is pure energy like ive said before one needs a bLrain to dream

[Nay]

Alright Mickeydeez...btw, I looooove your fries.

Can you please put your post all together instead of one sentence posts?

Thank you,

Nay

Edit: I did it for you.  The edit button is very useful, it help save room.

[mickeydeez]

all i have to say is LOL o_O

[Nay]

all i have to say is LOL o_O

Well I'm happy to see you laughing.... Now open that mind and lets get busy..

Nay

[Nostic]

Alright Mickeydeez...btw, I looooove your fries.

I know, I know, you're not yelling or anything but to be honest all I feel is anger from your posts, with a sprinkle of superiority for spice..Wink

Now open that mind and lets get busy.. Wink

Nay, you are truly a nut!    LOL, my kind of person!

I think Mickey just wants to be heard. Not sure if his technique is appropriate  though.

[Nay]

Hehehe..why thank you Nostic!

I believe you're right, but all is good now, right?

Nay

[mickeydeez]

well excuse me, are you trying to say that i do not have an open mind? if so then my friend you are the closed minded one

if you believe anything that a murderous race of beings claim to be good/evil then im closed minded yes

[Nay]

Awwwww..I leave for a few hours and you regress?  That's not playing fair...   I suppose it is time for me to bow out of the conversation now, hope you find what you're looking for Mick.

Still love your fries,

Nay  

[mickeydeez]

Ok logic back to your first post "You made a lot of claims without reason or evidence, when in the first case they are unprovable, ie: a creator cannot live in the space / time that it has created." how can a being ie: god live within time if he created it?? it just isnt possible. something/someone must have created god/gods into our space time when or if it was even created. the bible nor any other "holy book" or religion that ive heard of even fathoms greater gods

with that said all religion is false because they teach that there god/gods are infinite when infarct its possible they were created!!!!!!!!

Time was created and it will have an end. so all things within time including your gods will cease to exist or be frozen in dead time . in other words your gods will DIE!! . why worship a mortal (yet unsee able being). its like worshiping some finite spirit in which u cannot fully comprehend its being; POINTLESS PEOPLE

[Logic]

Im sorry, but it doesn't even look like you know what you're talking about mickeydeez.

[mickeydeez]

i dont?? or maybe you cannot comprehend my post so you twist things around to make it seem like im the clueless one

btw one cannot look like knowledge

I would also like to state that right and wrong is an opinion not a fact . therefore there is no good/evil, which rules out religion as a whole

[Logic]

Okay then, you're an idiot.

[karnautrahl]

Time was created and it will have an end. so all things within time including your gods will cease to exist or be frozen in dead time  . in other words your gods will DIE!!  . why worship a mortal (yet unsee able being). its like worshiping some finite spirit in which u cannot fully comprehend its being; POINTLESS PEOPLE

How was time created? What evidence do you have?

What evidence do you have that the universe is not any bigger than one definition of "time" and "space"?

Why have an attachment to such a pessimistic viewpoint in the first place?

You are hoping to simplify everything perhaps in your own mind into some kind of overreaching idea that covers it all?
Perhaps you simply wish to simplify a universe that seems way too complicated for you. Just an opinion of course.
I don't need a belief in a deity, only because I have not proven to myself the existence of such.

I would also be a fool to say such being(s) cannot exist, at least not without very solid evidence.
I and many others, (perhaps) do not like the word God neither am I personally very comfortable with many other spiritual buzzwords simply because I do not have comfortable associations with those labels, not because I can dismiss or disprove the ideas totally.

So I'm a neutral, I'm on the fence, and I am proud to be so because IMHO true believers of the non questioning sort are complete fools along with closed, narrow minded skeptics who also believe only one worldview is correct.  I own and admit this is purely my own opinion and I have not referenced any other sources of evidence of this opinion.

would also like to state that right and wrong is an opinion not a fact . therefore there is no good/evil, which rules out religion as a whole

This statement is cr*p! That's the short version. Can you truly claim to completely justify this opinion? With evidence, with facts?

If there is no right or wrong at all then um paedophiles and rapists aren't wrong? Cold blooded murder is not wrong? Nazism wasn't/isn't wrong? Freedom of speech isn't right? The list goes on.

Also your abuse of arguement here, the conflation of religion with the no right/wrong, good/evil thing doesn't really make much sense.

Religion could exist with or without the existence of good and evil.

To me so far your extreme negativity shows signs of incompetent and perhaps insecure thinking. Also anger perhaps.
Note I am not implying you are an incompetent, just that you have performed an act of what I would consider to be incompetent thinking.
So maybe you had a bad day.
So I'm not being personal about anything other than this current opinion under examination .

[mickeydeez]

"If there is no right or wrong at all then um paedophiles and rapists aren't wrong? Cold blooded murder is not wrong? Nazism wasn't/isn't wrong? Freedom of speech isn't right? The list goes on." Spoken like a true child the concept of right/wrong is an opinion im i correct?? so raping a child is an opinion of choice?? like ive said there is no good/evil its what you want it to be. If you cannot live in a world with violence and corruption then kill yourself by all means

still space/time is what we all live in.. your telling me you do not exist in time?? you actually need proof of time?? like ive said this is mostly therory based on real science . "Religion could exist with or without the existence of good and evil" ok karnautrahl religion teachs yin/yang opposties am i correct?? so a religion of a "holy being" or "holy energy" must have an evil side to it as well. ruleing out good/evil means that there is no holy - sub holy . my friend if you cannot fathom such things then you should try some deep thinking perhaps . Though i do not agree with murder as i have respect all life in the universe ITS AN OPINION . you cannot say somethings right/wrong with it because you are one person in 6 billion. your voice will most likey never be heard so you should keep your opinions about something so divine as right/wrong to yourself O_O

Also whos to say that space/time is the only calculation in the universe , its what we've got now so deal with it. One can only go by the amount of knowledge in the universe, so why are u sitting on your behind. instead of  trying to learn the finite amounts of knowledge on earth why arent you in a space program?? You could be the first person on Mars, and find some new kind of subtance that keeps mortals alive longer ( or something ) .

"How was time created? What evidence do you have?" my friend there is only a few logical answers for this question. 1: a "creator" created space/time but once time has started nothing can enter or leave time . 2: the big bang ( sounds bogus to me) something out of nothing just doesnt fit. look at it this way, how could a massive explosion happen from nothing?? it takes splitting atoms to create such a thing . arent atoms some sort of matter/energy but this is flawed because energy cannot be created nor destroyed . Time is nothing more than a calculation that we are ALL doomed by this being said , i hope it clears up anything , doubts in your mind about time/space that you are having

[Logic]

You're so self contradicting that it is rediculious, as for the rest of it you're just not even making sense and going off on tangents. I'm finished looking at this thread.

[karnautrahl]

I don't have much time before we go out here early on a sunday morning. However I wonder if this summed it up.

i like to eat at mac donalds

I also agree with Logic. Later on I will post hopefully clear and concise reasons why. You are "deep thinking" for the sake of it, well hoping to appear to be so I feel. But I will examine this properly later when I have sufficient time.

[karnautrahl]

If there is no right or wrong at all then um paedophiles and rapists aren't wrong? Cold blooded murder is not wrong? Nazism wasn't/isn't wrong? Freedom of speech isn't right? The list goes on."

Spoken like a true child the concept of right/wrong is an opinion im i correct??

The concept of right or wrong came from somewhere. Yes on some levels it may be opinion and like all opinions one point of view can be said to be as valid as another. This is the relative morals argument. However if you cannot see that there is a hard core bundle of human values that can define good or evil then you yourself may have an issue.

Yes there are many issues that in different cultures are more acceptable or unacceptable than others. As cultures have evolved and grown there appears to be a kind of a consensus as to some basics as to what could define evil. Again you may say this is a cultural opinion. It might appear to be such a product. However it has far more value to a society than a mere opinion, therefore I feel such morals become a lot more than opinion.

Society has a whole has a long way to go with this of course, but the examples I give above I stand by. Things that I say are evil, I label so because I believe that they are and that most of the world would go along with this, barring obvious exceptions of course.  The world has yet to form a complete consensus on freedom of speech, and unfortunately Nazi movements still exist.

If we do not as a society, build a foundation for judging what we think is truly good or evil, along what lines will justice evolve? Natural justice e.g. survival of the fittest? Relative justice only e.g. where extremely convoluted and woolly thinking can actually get rapists and similar off the hook?

so raping a child is an opinion of choice??

What the **** do you mean by this? It's an evil act even if the reasons the perpetrator gives to rationalise appear to be anything but. This is one thing that everyone I've every spoken to or heard from on this subject agrees. The only people who do not tend to be paedophiles or have other serious issues in their own right.

In times past there are tales of cultures where catamites were considered a normal "accessory" for people in power. Also torture, slavery and many other practices that we now feel to be evil were considered normal. The definitions of evil as a whole have evolved with the race. No-one handed us a stone with these engraved, and the universe was not created with our human ideas of good and evil written out for us. We have had to learn these ourselves. Here's a thought for you. Is maths real? The reason I ask I hope would be obvious, however if not; The rules behind simple mathematical operations seem be universal no matter where you are. The universe will operate to a large degree to mathematical models we understand already, this is proven. Also we are also aware that there are gaps in this knowledge, some of them immense. What we have certainly works so far regardless. The same could be said for a form of universal good and evil.

It's possible that any other sentient life that has much similarity to our own in form would end up arriving at similar conclusions that can apply anywhere. There is more to be said here of course, including what happens with biological differences etc.

like ive said there is no good/evil its what you want it to be. If you cannot live in a world with violence and corruption then kill yourself by all means

This is meaningless garbage. Always was, and always will be. You do appear to believe in relative morals in a major way. Without foundations nothing gets built. Your ethics sound like they'd collapse as so far they appear to me to be built on nothing, pretty much like your argument.

Where on earth did you dig up that silly statement anyway? It's pretty juvenile and does not advance your point of view in any way at all. Throw out similar stuff on your next post please.

still space/time is what we all live in.. your telling me you do not exist in time??
you actually need proof of time??"

You answer nothing with this. Time is a phenomena we all experience and are familiar but no-one fully understands it. As a race we do not understand it's origins, all we know how to do is measure it. We do relate time to space as the two appear inseparable, perhaps the answer lies in this fact.

This does not indicate how time was created, neither does it indicate a creator. Logically you can endeavour to argue that it was created somehow, because it exists. That's as far as you can go. Time in the continuum we live in appears to flow one way from our point of view, we can look back with varying degrees of accuracy but so far we do not know how to look forward.

like ive said this is mostly therory based on real science .
"Religion could exist with or without the existence of good and evil"
ok karnautrahl religion teachs yin/yang opposties am i correct??
so a religion of a "holy being" or "holy energy" must have an evil side to it as well.
ruleing out good/evil means that there is no holy - sub holy . my friend if you cannot fathom such things then you should try some deep thinking perhaps .

I believe you started the "no good/evil" argument. I believe there is a true good/evil, even though it can be shown to be a human creation it does not make it less real. Take all forms of thinking, sentient life off this planet and you would be correct in a way to say that on Earth there would not be good/evil. It's a product of our form of sentient life. It's still real.
I will admit to slightly sloppy thinking on the religion point. Most religions I am familiar do teach some form of polarity as far as I know. My knowledge of religion does not extend far enough for me to point out any that do not teach such polarity in some form, though I do think from what I know of Taoism that good/evil is not the polarity under discussion.

Though i do not agree with murder as i have respect all life in the universe ITS AN OPINION .

It may be an opinion, however sometimes all we have is opinion upon which to base important decisions. On this board our opinions only have importance to others as they are the main "face" of what others can see about us on the net.

In our lives our opinions are important to us as we do base a big proportion of our decisions on them. We have to believe that we are likely to be right most of the time for this to work, though most of us a flexible enough to deal with being wrong as this allows us to grow and learn.  

Your opinion on murder is the same as most people I've ever spoken with and I think the vast majority of the world. The exceptions tend to be people who are a danger to society, so it's not just a personal opinion, but possibly  a near universal opinion that was strong enough to have laws created based upon it. That makes it very real.

you cannot say somethings right/wrong with it because you are one person in 6 billion. your voice will most likey never be heard so you should keep your opinions about something so divine as right/wrong to yourself

I can and I will. We all do on this board, we all do in our lives. You are a fool and a knave Sir, and I believe you are sadly mistaken in your attempt to tell me how to behave. You are being childish and asinine with this totally nonsensical statement. No where in this post do I suggest that you do the same. I do believe you should take more time in your replies however.

Occasionally somebody makes the right noise in the right place and things change. Yes it takes commitment, passion and a belief in themselves and the human race to do this. If it was true, mankind would be in caves still.

Thankfully I do not believe in keeping my opinions to myself except when prudent, something basic common sense tells me. In this instance it's not only valid to challenge your extreme negativism but I believe almost imperative. History has shown time and again that one person can and will make a difference if they truly want to. So do not presume to believe that you have any right to request I keep my opinions to myself. That is simply and utterly stupid. You will not silence anyone with edicts. The only request I or perhaps any other reader on this board might make is that you make your arguments more coherent and complete.

Also whos to say that space/time is the only calculation in the universe , its what we've got now so deal with it. One can only go by the amount of knowledge in the universe, so why are u sitting on your behind. instead of trying to learn the finite amounts of knowledge on earth why arent you in a space program?? You could be the first person on Mars, and find some new kind of subtance that keeps mortals alive longer ( or something ) ."

Why aren't you? Stupid question. One that did not require this length of an answer. What is so special about you that you feel you can ask this question out of nowhere?

There are obvious reasons why I am not in a space program or a scientific researcher. One is that I did not attempt to choose those paths in life. As for why, why do any of us choose the paths that we do. Another is that for these two paths you suggest I'm simply not quite that intelligent at this time.

What are you attempting to imply by this question? It sounds like you wish to judge me or is this aimed in general. Either way it's judgemental and not very bright.

How was time created? What evidence do you have?" my friend there is only a few logical answers for this question.

Only a few? Is logic the only tool in your toolbar? If so, you need some more and also you might want to consider sharpening this one.

1: a "creator" created space/time but once time has started nothing can enter or leave time .

The first half of this is fine, but I do not understand how you reach the conclusion that nothing can enter or leave. There is no foundation for this assertation at all.

You appear to be implying you have a full and deep understanding of the complete structure of space time to know this. Which is not possible. Current theories in physics suggest many possibilities including higher dimensions and wormholes. I won't bore the thread by listing out all the current theories, besides right now I'd have to actually go and find you some links and references. Something I'm sure you can do for yourself.

2: the big bang ( sounds bogus to me) something out of nothing just doesnt fit. look at it this way, how could a massive explosion happen from nothing?? it takes splitting atoms to create such a thing . arent atoms some sort of matter/energy but this is flawed because energy cannot be created nor destroyed . Time is nothing more than a calculation that we are ALL doomed by this being said , i hope it clears up anything , doubts in your mind about time/space that you are having

The big bang theory is a model, a best fit based on the data we have. No-one has claimed it is the only truth, only the best we have based on current evidence. This is how most investigations are performed, trying to work out what happened from the remaining evidence. Splitting atoms, fusing atoms, anti-matter/matter annihilation are some ways to generate energy from given mass.

You are correct on one statement that is the fact that within this universe that we can observe, the rule does seem to be that you cannot create/destroy energy. However, we don't know exactly what was here before the big bang. Had the universe collapsed into an immensely dense near point mass and then exploded? Does it go in cycles, if so what medium does our universe rest in.

Is there evidence of a greater continuum outside this one. So far the best model is that this is likely but no one is claiming any certainty on this.

However please try to order your main argument and additional arguments with some thought to logical progression. If you can maintain a full train of thought, a decent thread of argument, it would be simpler to answer your posts in a more thorough manner.

[mickeydeez]

My friend. Just like religion ITS A WIDELY BASED OPINION ( murder, child rape , etc.) you are so bound by your morals that you cannot see this. thief was looked down upon by those who "got there sutff stolen",
same with child rape. so you were taught to hate such things , as when i was 14 years old i found out that most of the right/wrong was an opinion. then i learned that humans ( you and i ) change right/wrong as we grow and evolve. so how is right/wrong a fact?? if it keeps changing?? you seem to have gotten angry about the "so raping a child is an opinion of choice" . this proves that you have been brainwashed into thinking a certain way , and you call yourself a sentient being HA . still i have no proof that a "creator" or even humans are bound by space/time. like ive said time/space is only a calculation whos to say it is the only one?? i admit i have tried to use theory as fact in this topic, and i apologize . unless someone has found another way besides time/space "math" i will stick by my posts