Anti-Catholics

[The AlphaOmega]

I like that you added Mormonism and Buddhism to your list of open mindedness.  Not because either are at any war or anything with Catholics, but because I have talked to many in the 3 seperate groups who hate the other 2 with quite a passion, for reasons that really aren't accurate.  When one belongs to a religion it's easy to discount others as wrong.  When you're in a religion the tendency is to strive for full faith in that religion, and in doing so one can make it difficult for themselves to be open minded or objective towards anything else.  Nobody knows everything or has all the answers, so maybe we could all benefit in some part from each idea, no matter how different it may be from our own.

[exothen]

I haven't read any Catholic sources, but I am not anti-Catholic. I disagree with several of their doctrines, but that's about it. Mormonism, on the other hand, I have studied fairly thoroughly and consider it wrong based on what I have found.

[Moonburn33]

any group that secretly condones and finances the nazis is not on my "i love them" list.  

1. catholics are discouraged from reading the bible, because a lot of what it says contradicts church doctrine.

2. catholics pray to saints and to mary instead of praying to jesus, the real go-between for god and man (according to the bible) (no false idols, no other gods before me)
3. they need priests to absolve them of sin  (if you accept jesus as savior, then you are automatically forgiven, according to the bible)
4. eucharist.
5. there is no emotion in a catholic mass, only people droning.
6. the catholic church is declining in membership (anglican church is almost bankrupt)
7. the long-held practice of refusing to fire priests who abuse children by high ranking people in the church.

do i need to keep going on?

[Shinobi]

...

[Anonymous]

Hey thanks, Shinobi!  Moonburn, I encourage you to read sources at the two sites I mentioned in my first post, since they'll give you more detailed information about Catholicism.

[Moonburn33]

apparently my information is wrong.  i apologize.  it would appear that i need to talk to my ex catholic friends

and i didn't mean to pull the abusive priest card like that -that was cheap.  any religion can have that problem, it's just that catholicism has had the most publicity.

[Gandalf]

as someone who is NOT christian I would like to suggest that all the factions of christianity should work harder to respect eachother since the hatred, yes hatred.. between you all is a BIG TURN OFF.. no wonder people are leaving christianity in droves.
This sectarianism is so ingrained i bet many of you use it in the language without even realising it.
example:
Protestants often refer to themselves as 'christians' while catholics are refered to as catholics only.. as if somehow catholics are not a branch of christianity...  I have even heard some nuts refer to them as satanists!!!  excuse me...
from an outside view you ALL are branches of christianity, although i'm sure it doesnt look like that from the cosy sectarian narrowminded viewpoint.

Yes catholic christians have a bad track record but protestants are harldy much better.. the witch hunts anyone? the KKK? WASPs? The condoning of the cultural wipeout of native american culture (including ridiculing their native beliefs and turning them into polite 'civilised' christians)?

All religions have their good and bad points and all have their share of bad history, unfortunatly if comes with the parcel of being human.

Douglas

[Gandalf]

exothen

About your quote:"When men cease to believe in God, they do not believe in nothing; they believe in anything." G.K. Chesterton


nice one... I agree.. its called being able to think for oneself for once instead of being told what to think; not everyone likes that of course, including your G'K. Chesterton I guess; He probable also forgets that there are many more definitions of 'god' than his own particular version...

Douglas

[exothen]

gandalf,

The whole point of Chesterton's statement is that when people stop believing in the orthodox Christian view of God, they believe in anything, which is very irrational. It is not "thinking for oneself," it is "believing anything without seeing if it is rational to believe."

Is that all you got? [] After not debating me for so long, all you can do is attack my sig. Tsk, tsk.[][]

[no_leaf_clover]

quote:The whole point of Chesterton's statement is that when people stop believing in the orthodox Christian view of God, they believe in anything, which is very irrational. It is not "thinking for oneself," it is "believing anything without seeing if it is rational to believe."

Sounds sort of prejudice to me, to think that anyone who isn't Christian is extremely naive.

quote:Is that all you got?  After not debating me for so long, all you can do is attack my sig. Tsk, tsk.

lol.. I think you place too much value on who 'wins'. Just my opinion.

[The AlphaOmega]

Exothen, you hint at believing that when you don't believe in God, you believe in nothing.  This has a certain aspect of truth I think, but most likely not how you intended it.  For many years I was what you would call and "orthodox Christian".  What's more important is that this is not something I was born or forced into, but something I chose and believed in by my own free will.  The problem I'm having with your statement is this... you stated that not believing in Orthodox Christianity is not being rational.  Just in case you dispute your remark, which I hope you do, otherwise what would be the point of discussion, I will point out your own remark.  "when people stop believing in the orthodox Christian view of God, they believe in anything, which is very irrational".  The very point that you are missing is that not believing in formal religion of any kind, is in fact extremely rational.  The kicker is that only a rational, not opinionated mind, is capable of seeing that.  I know, and I know that I know, not think, just as much as ANYONE on the true nature of Christ and God, knows, about the true nature of Christ and God.  I hope that makes sense, and blame no one if it doesn't, because it was hard to put into words.  Note this all cynics (and everyone is a cynic, even myself in certain aspects) I did not claim to know everything about all religions and all beliefs about Christ and God.  Simply the truth, which I am not here to preach for it is everyones right to discover themselves.  My real point is this... the absolute truth about Christ and God, which is not open to negotiations or opinions, only discovery, is that the truth is not found through faith or hope or belief.  It IS found through logic, and reason, and asking all the illegide unanswerable questions about the universe.  Before the birth of Christ there were men named Socrates and Plato and Leonardo Da Vinci.  These men came up with ideas unheard of at the time about the inner workings of the human body, psyche as we know it, aspects of space and time, and the nature of health and medicine itself.  These "philosophies" and "art" were examined time and time again until finally the invention of technology was advanced enough to decipher as fact and no longer idea.  Every single fact and science in the history of mankind has begun with an idea.  And now, though primative, we have reached a new spiritual idea about existence, and all the sciences combined have shown us that the teachings and manifestations of God, such as Christ, likely really happened.  If science is our new religion, and science is continuously proving that the life of Christ and events of the Bible could have truly happened (which is does), doesn't that scientifically, and philisophically (which is the science of logic and reason) show us that the spiritual aspects in our life, which we all feel, even if we question... happened?    I know I've gotten way off track, but there is one simple yet absolutely impossible human aspect that continues to occur.  Religion is always based on it's fellow man and exceptance of eachother, and this same religion has always changed, by man, to be the cause of mankinds greatest downfalls.  We accept what is true within ourselves, and cannot follow it!

[Gandalf]

I agree,
Also exothen, your last statement simply reinforced my point.
You are unable to perceive any other perception of 'god' or any other spiritual viewpoint outside of your own 'orthodox' christian viewpoint, even going so far as to state that your viewpoint is 'rational' while all other conceptions of 'god' and other religions/forms of spirituality are 'irrational'.

This is typical of someone who cannot perceive of any other religious reality outside of their own strict belief system.

If you think you are unique, you are not.. I have found exactly the same attitude that 'my religion is the most rational' etc, voiced by many religious groupings, including Buddhists, Muslims, new-agers, and various christian groups... they all think they are closest to the truth.

Anyway, thats why I took issue with your quote, the reason being that it appeared to sum up your viewpoint in one line instead of an entire page, which of course is partly the reason why you chose it; It just struck me as a rather narrow-minded viewpont and in some ways quite naive.

Regards,
Douglas

PS sorry to be picky alphaomega but you made a mistake in your post, you stated that Socrates, Plato and DaVinci were born before Christ...
the first two were, but DaVinci was 15th/16th century!

Personally, I don't agree that science is 'proving' that the events in the christian bible happened. archaeology goes some way to establishing several of the place names and personalities of the ancient world, but anything beyond that is a different matter and lies more within the realms of faith.
In the same way, while historians can veryify some basic facts concerning Muhamed, Buddha and events in Hindu myth etc, anything you accept beyond that belongs to your particular faith system and is beyond the scope of conventional science.

[exothen]

no_leaf_clover,

quote:Sounds sort of prejudice to me, to think that anyone who isn't Christian is extremely naive.

I am not saying that such a person is extremely naive but rather that as one moves away from believing in a personal God who is the giver of absolute truth and morality, one moves into the realm of subjective experience in which they believe what they want to believe, whether it is right or wrong. There are naive people who are Christian and non-Christian.

TheAlphaOmega,

quote:Exothen, you hint at believing that when you don't believe in God, you believe in nothing.

Not exactly. Such people believe "anything," not "nothing."

quote: you stated that not believing in Orthodox Christianity is not being rational.

Again, not exactly. It is the idea of one believing in anything that is irrational, not necessarily not believing in orthodox Christianity.

Gandalf,

quote:You are unable to perceive any other perception of 'god' or any other spiritual viewpoint outside of your own 'orthodox' christian viewpoint, even going so far as to state that your viewpoint is 'rational' while all other conceptions of 'god' and other religions/forms of spirituality are 'irrational'.

I compare what I learn of other religions to what I believe to see which is more rational and reasonable to believe. I'll make adjustments if needed, but so far I haven't had to. I have made adjustments within my beliefs, I just haven't found anything worth believing outside of Christianity.

quote:It just struck me as a rather narrow-minded viewpont

Truth is narrow, by definition. Just as you stated, "they all think they are closest to the truth." But they cannot all be right; one can be right, or they can all be wrong. I am just being consistent with my belief that Christianity is the most rational of all religious beliefs, that I have found thus far.

Anyway, I'm sure it wouldn't take much prodding to get most in here to confess that they think Christianity isn't very rational. It goes both ways, I just choose say it.[][]

[exothen]

Gandalf,

Before I forget yet again, I will say this for the record: I do agree with your previous post on the anti-Catholic rhetoric spewed by other Christian denominations. Not on every point mind you, but the general idea of the post. I think this is the first time I have agreed with you.[]

[Anonymous]

There seems to be a good amount of Anti-Catholicism on this board.  I want to ask all of you a question.  Have you ever read anything about Catholicism from a real Catholic source?  //www.newadvent.orgis a great site, with tons of info.  //www.phatmass.comis good too, but it's a forum.  There are plenty of others too, I bet, and plenty of wrong ones.

Also, if you are going to discount everything the Roman Catholic Church ever said because you read the Da Vinci Code (a work of fiction, obviously, and a cool story) then you are not being scholarly at all, and doing yourself a disfavor.

Hey, all I'm asking is for those who truly dislike Catholicism to go read some Catholic literature.  I would be not be scholarly if I went around saying hot Gnosticism was bad and I didn't even try to read Gnostic literature.  The same goes for Mormonism and Buddhism and Astral Projection!

Take a gander and then you can write your own book on how and why the Catholic Church is wrong and/or worshipping Satan/the Sun/a Mother Goddess and/or non-Christian.

[Leo Volont]

Regarding Catholicism, no Tradition on Earth has such a great density of Major Saints.  And there have been so many Apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  Catholicism is the LAST LIVING Religion.

Unfortunately, the Contemplative and Acsetic Orders are cloistered and secretive.  To benefit from these traditions you almost have to agree to be imprisoned for the rest of your life.

[andonitxo]

Hello,
I thought Jesus spoke about love and forgiveness... but catholic church is full of hatred.

Jesus spoke about the importance of children and priests have marked a lot of them forever.

Jesus spoke about faith in God, but priests don't want but church serfdom.

People believe more on old testament, the testament of the cruel god, than on the new one, the testament of the goodness god.

Church orders africans not to use condoms... Africa is full of AIDS. That's assassination.

Jesus spoke about freedom and confidence on God, church tries to control goverments.

And sooooo on...

[Telos]

I highly recommend that everyone in this thread read the Vatican II "Declaration of Religious Freedom" document.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html

It begins with this:

A sense of the dignity of the human person has been impressing itself more and more deeply on the consciousness of contemporary man,(1) and the demand is increasingly made that men should act on their own judgment, enjoying and making use of a responsible freedom, not driven by coercion but motivated by a sense of duty.

Hello,
I thought Jesus spoke about love and forgiveness... but catholic church is full of hatred.

Jesus spoke about the importance of children and priests have marked a lot of them forever.

If by mark you mean molested, yes that's a serious problem. The fact that bishops have worked to cover some of them up is also a serious problem.

Jesus spoke about faith in God, but priests don't want but church serfdom.

That statement might have been true 500 years ago.

People believe more on old testament, the testament of the cruel god, than on the new one, the testament of the goodness god.

You're probably thinking the of Protestant sects that take the bible literally. The Catholic doctrine simple states, "God is Love."

Church orders africans not to use condoms... Africa is full of AIDS. That's assassination.

No. Catholics just believe you shouldn't have sex unless you're prepared to have kids. A condom is a contraceptive - unnatural sex without kids. There's something to be said for self control and living without being a mindless sex drone.

Jesus spoke about freedom and confidence on God, church tries to control goverments.

Recent examples? The recent ones are important because the Catholic church has changed throughout history. It always will change as people change (refer to the declaration of religious freedom).

The only recent example I think can think of church officials being involved in government activism is when American Catholics were denouncing the dialectical materialism of communism. Sounds like preserving freedom and confidence in God to me.

[sweetbliss]

There's something to be said for self control and living without being a mindless sex drone.

I don't want to say anything anything now about Catholics, after all facts are facts and true believers are true believers, and that not only regarding the Catholic church, but all the religions. I'm neither Catholic nor from a Catholic country, but I just fund that comment quite inspired.
And I'm relating it to another moment. A time a go, a good friend of mine told me what her little daughter said to her. She is a 5 year old kid, one of those who can already speak in two foreign languages and have a particular spiritual insight, and often amazes her parents.
(There seem to be born more and more children of this type nowadays, so maybe some of the old prejudices will finally drop off.)
So one day her mother and she were in a tram, and she wanted to make her mother look at two boys, at highschool age, who were sitting next to them. Of course, the mother did not want to stare at them, but she insisted, and she said something like: "Look mum, those boys. They look like princes, because they have no girls. Look!"
It's hard to suspect any dogma or even educational input here. What can a 5 year old little girl know about dogma or boys   . And she has a very normal and non-dogmatic family. But she could feel this and was just enjoying a particular vibration of innocence, which she also wanted to share with someone else. If this innocence is producing such spontaneous joy, then there shouldn't be so many prejudices against it.


When being institutionalized, it may produce hash effects, and still It's just the beauty of human nature.

Of course, if there are special spiritual events taking place now in the world (and there are enough proves of this), then it would by good for Catholics to have a leader who can tune himself to these events.

And, as I am from an East-European country, I can tell that there are people here, very well educated both in politics and spirituality, who feel more gratitude towards President Reagan than the Pope. And there are some good reason for that.

But innocence is what it is, and I believe that there will me more and more people starting to understand and appreciate it.