The Astral Pulse

I have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.

yt

Depends on your views of Christianity. A more open-minded form, or person, would be much more open to such things, like the occult. But obviously, more fundamentalist Christians would be more likely to claim that such things are blasphemy and evil.

I voted NO and i'm sure that at least 90% of the astral pulse members will vote like me.

It would be very interesting to see the results of a similiar poll on a christian forum.

QuoteI voted NO and i'm sure that at least 90% of the astral pulse members will vote like me.

oops - i was wrong :shock:  0% 66% 33% right now  :lol:

Quote from: QuantitativefoolI have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.

Yes, for most catholics the anwser would be yes i think. So are you going to stop now?  

(asking on this board is not very smart, anyone here probably practice this stuff themselfs, so would they say no?)

Thanks for all of your replies, I think that it, for the most part, isn't going to be accepted very well in the church and by members but I am still going to keep practicing it. Also I talked to a person who teaches a highschool theology class and he basically said as long as you don't 'manipulate the spirit world for personal good' your safe. ect. well thanks and keep posting.

I would say no because I don't practice anything on these boards. I am the token "fundy" on these boards, but even by Christian standards, I am much more open-minded than a fundamentalist (but I do remain conservative and adhere to orthodoxy).

There is Christian spirituality, mostly within Eastern Christianity, but there has always been a distinction made between an "Eastern" spirituality and "Eastern Christian" spirituality (for lack of a better way of describing it at the moment). To simply accept all things spiritual is detrimental to oneself, as there are spiritual practices that can be harmful. There are practices that are similar, very similar in some instances, but they still remain different. The vast majority of the spiritual practices on these boards I would consider harmful practices that are ignorant of the spiritual forces that exist and just what their purposes are.

I wonder what does your priest (and your fellow Catholics) think about a "christian meditation" (http://www.wccm.org/splash.asp?pagestyle=default) ? :)

First, I am not Catholic, I'm an Evangelical Protestant. Second, I'm sure many Evangelicals would think that Christian meditation is "New Age," but I don't think it is. This is precisely one of those practices that very closely resembles the Eastern religious practice, but the main differences are the purpose of it and what the mind is focusing on.

It is really hard to say what most Evangelicals would think of actual meditation since most do believe in meditation in the sense of simply contemplating a certain verse or passage of Scripture (if you were to ask a typical Evangelical, you would get a similar response). But I believe in the breathing and focusing that is thought of as "New Age" or Eastern by most Christians.

I have only discovered this within the last year, so I am still trying to learn about the Christian spiritual practices. And then I want to actually practice them.

Dear QuantitativeFool,

My latest post to my thread entitled "A Fresh Look at Heaven" was partly crafted with you in mind.   I present biblical and early Christian examples of astral exploration.   So you might want to check it out.  

In Catholic monastaries, in the field of Spiritual Direction and in Catholic prayer retreats, certain "techniques" are often used in meditation.  Meditation is stressed more than prayer in the biblical Psalms.   The Bible often commands believers to meditate.  

I would rephrase your issue this way:   "What factors in these meditation techniques could conceivably make it unsafe?"   Let's brainstorm here.  Perhaps if you consciously or unconsciously wanted to invite discarnate spirits of unknown spirituality to bond with your spirit?, Or if you wanted to master astral exploration for nefarious purposes?   Or what if you generated so much fear that this fear attracted negative entities to you?   Once you get clear that none of these questions is that big a deal for you, go ahead and use Robert Bruce's techniques.   I intend to buy RB's latest book and explore his techniques myself.    

Best wishes,
Berserk

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Quotehe goes around with his desciples EXCORCISING 'EVIL SPIRITS' out of sooth sayers, fortune tellers, mystics, and sorcerers.

Hi, can you provide a reference for this? I would be interested to read it.
Lots of casting out spirits but I thought all the stuff you're talking about was in the Old Testament.

I would have voted no in the poll because I think that early Christians
had a much more esoteric doctrine than made it into the bible.
I think Quantitativefool has nothing to worry about, and he might be interested to google for vatican secret archives and check out www.essene.com especially the end of book 4

Thanks for the link, it was really interesting

Hey,

I was wondering if a moderator would be a little more specific about exactly which of "these practices" we're refering to.

Thanks

A.K.666,

quote:  "You can find a thread I made about this in the 'magic' forum and it has pages full of quotes from the buybull which directly and violently condemn occultism, spirituality and esotoricm as the worst things a christian or a jew can do. "

Occultism, yes; spirituality and esotericm, no.

quote: "If you think jebus (Jesus?) supported this, look at the new testament, he goes around with his desciples EXCORCISING 'EVIL SPIRITS' out of sooth sayers, fortune tellers, mystics, and sorcerers."

No he doesn't.

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Dear aryanknight666,

The three Magi who visited Jesus at his birth were likely magicians of the order of the Magi a historically documented order that existed at that time.  The church may have problems with magicians but it seems like Jesus did not.  If Jesus did walk on water, turned water into wine, multiplied food etc. he had a very good understanding of elemental magic.

violetrose

What's up AK,

"Esotoricism and occultism are exactly the same word in different languages, and with the same meaning.  Spirituality IS the occult."

Well those three words have different definitions in this language, and those definitions are distinguished in Hebrew (Language of the Old Testament).

"Spirituality"

1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual
 
A look at the first definition should convince you that no priest of minister will deny the importance of spirituality.  Every religion is based on spirituality.  "G-d is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."  (John 4:24)


"es•o•ter•i•cism"

1 : esoteric doctrines or practices
2 : the quality or state of being esoteric

In other words being secretive, but the word does not define of what you are being secretive about.  "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." -Jesus (Matt. 13:11).  No, the Bible never "violently condemns" this.  Niether does it openly promote it, but I wouldn't say we're being to esoteric concerning AP, energy work or any of the other subjects we're discussing.

"According to you, Jebus doesn't excercise spirits out of fortune tellers and sooth sayers and the like."

Has nothing to do with me.  According to the Gospels there is no reference for your claim.  There is a girl in Mark 7:30 who Jesus casts a demon out of and and she is never referred to as a fortune teller or anything else, and the demon was only cast out because her mother begged Jesus to do it.  Coincidently every individual who was freed of demons by Jesus was grateful.      

"If you challenged any preist or minister by saying that jesus doesn't condemn the occult and spirituality, then, I would like to see that."

You are correct that many of the practices in the occult are prohibited in scripture.  I haven't found AP, energy work or breath awareness to be among that list.

How's it going Violetrose?

As you may know the three Magi from the East (i.e. Babylon) probably got their instruction and clues concerning the Messiah from the Chief of the Magi (Magicians), Daniel (Dan 4:9) hundreds of years ealier; although he himself was not a magician.  He was appointed Chief because he did what no magician could do, interperet  Nebuchadnezzar's dream.  Many G-dly men of the Bible, including Jesus, did supernatural things that are mimicked in magic, but you'll find that magic was not the source of their ability.

violetrose,

QuoteThe three Magi who visited Jesus at his birth were likely magicians of the order of the Magi a historically documented order that existed at that time. The church may have problems with magicians but it seems like Jesus did not. If Jesus did walk on water, turned water into wine, multiplied food etc. he had a very good understanding of elemental magic.

First, just because Magi visited Christ as a child doesn't mean that he approved of magicians. They came to him because they saw in the stars the sign that a king had been born and they went to pay homage. Nothing more.

Second, Jesus makes it clear that everything he did, he did by the power of the Holy Spirit to glorify God. He did not perform magic of any sort. In fact, that is close to what Jesus called "blaspheming the Holy Spirit." To blaspheme the Holy Spirit, according to the passage it appears in, is to attribute the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan.


Corban,

QuoteG-dly

I don't think I've seen you on here before (not that I'm on here a lot). Are you a Jew? Or b'nai Noach (sp?) perhaps?

Dear exothen,

It is not by might or by power but by the holy spirit that the greatest things can be done. :D  

But the holy spirit is merely another name for the original pure consciousness of God as well as the original pure energy from which all else was originally created.  Of course all of this is just my humble opinion and could be total hooie and trust me I never discount that possibility.

A good elemental magician (few and far between) understands the original energies and consciousness as well as the elemental energies.  The elements and all else being born from this original energy.  Matter is just slowed down energy.  Jesus understood how to form the elements from the original energies and did not just mucking about or manipulate existing lower elemental energies as many magicians do.  Magic is a dirtied word for many.  Maybe instead we could say, "Jesus did elemental formation from the original God forces (pure energy and consciousness passing through akasha to form)."  Generally speaking, words people prefer merely reflect their perspective and view of the same thing.      

To me Jesus was the ultimate magician because he did not have to muck about with lower energies or potions etc etc.  And unlike some who muck about he (based on the literature I have read - the new testement) had noble intentions etc. etc.  Jesus worked with the holy spirit (original pure consciousness) and the original energies.  For me, (that's just me of course :wink: ) whether I have blasphemied actually depends on how I define a magician.  I define a magician as anyone who knowingly and intentionally works with energy and consciousness.  The problem is there is a mighty huge range from 'Saint' to 'Sinner' held within that definition.

Best Wishes to ya,
violetrose

P.S. Hi Corban! :)

People hurting people ON PURPOSE using black magic or demons or by witchcraft, definately does go against most religons.


People should try to distinguish what the church thinks about Jesus as opposed to what Jesus taught and Jesus before his crucifixion and Jesus after his crucifixion.

Whatever Jesus' failings before the crucifixion, was purified upon crucifixion.  

Jesus still had a pure heart, only someone with a pure heart can attain to such powers, and so yes I am pro-Jesus 8) .  

His voluntary crucifixion is an inspirational story about human suffering, death and immortality, and is ONE of the stories that has inspired me during my darkest hours, whenever I feel like giving up :cry: (I'm dealing with my own witches).  Of course I have a bias towards him since he gave me a vision of himself...

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Hi Violetrose,

You ask a good question, and I think you presented it in a very logical way.  The Bible prohibits all forms of sorcery (Heb. "Kessep") in Duet. 18:10.  In Exodus 7:11 the terms magician and sorcerer are shown to be synonymous from the Bible's perspective.  Jesus could not have been who he, and the New Testament, claimed if he was practicing magic/sorcery.  But I think the more important point is that his ability to manipulate the natural realm didn't need to come from magic.  Exodus 7 contains the big competition between magic, which G-d was/is against, and the miraculous, which G-d worked through Moses and Aaron.  There is another route to the supernatural beyond magic.


Shalom Exothen,

I've been loitering around this forum for a couple of months, but I haven't posted much.  I am a Messianic Jew.

There are four gospels because there are four corners of the earth and four elements!  That is what the church fathers said when compiling the NT.

The three wise-men were MAGICIANS.

God gave us the stars to look for signs according to genesis.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live;  the word from which WITCH was translated actually was from a word that referred to a person that assassinated people using poisons - - not Wiccans.

If you stop blinding accepting what "the church" tells you to fill their collection plates and actually STUDY what the bible teaches, I believe you will be surprised at what is acceptable and what is not.

fuji257,

QuoteGod gave us the stars to look for signs according to genesis.

Can you provide the verse for this?

QuoteThou shalt not suffer a witch to live; the word from which WITCH was translated actually was from a word that referred to a person that assassinated people using poisons - - not Wiccans.

You might have in mind the Greek word pharmakeia, which is translated as "sorcery" or "witchcraft," but is likely referring to the administering of potions to induce abortion. However, it may also be used of one that mixes potions.

Also, your argument doesn't work because there are other words such as magos and periergos which are translated as "magician" and "magic," respectively.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12:

"10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you."

2 Chronicles 33:6, "He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him {to anger.}"

Acts 19:19, "19 And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver."

Revelation 21:8, " 8 'But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.'"

QuoteIf you stop blinding accepting what "the church" tells you to fill their collection plates and actually STUDY what the bible teaches, I believe you will be surprised at what is acceptable and what is not.

Four problems here. You are assuming that: (1) those who accept the Church's teachings accept them blindly, (2) the Church only says certain things to get money, (3) personal study will lead one to different conclusions than the Church's, and (4) your interpretation is correct and Christianity's is not.

How do you know that you are right and the Church, which has been around for 2000 years, is wrong?

Genesis 1:14

Of course the ("divine inspired") author thinks the moon is light too, but I won't split hairs . . .


OK, now since you think we should obey the wise words in Deuteronomy lets take a look at some:


You will be punished for the sins of your great grandfather 5:9

Israelites should kill all foreigners in there land without mercy 7:2

Kill anyone who does not worship the Jew war god 13:6-10

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest 17:12-13

If your son disobeys, you guessed it - kill him 21:18-21

Kill rape VICTIMS 22:23

Oh, yeah.  Your God is good. And this is just a cursory glance.

And if I were you I would not throw around the word/phrase "abomination to the Lord" because you are if you eat Lobster according to Leviticus 11: 9-12.   So according to the word of GOD, anyone who has ever eaten a lobster is as bad as a witch.

You can read the Bible and cherry pick some sage advice and good old fashioned wisdom but ignore all the insanity, historical inaccuracies, absurd laws and commands.   Biblical scholars have been trying to explain it away for 2000 years but the bible just does not hold up to logic and morals.  

I suppose all the civilizations that rose and fell BEFORE the inherent word of god are all burning in hell?   The bible may have been around for ~2000 yrs but mankind has been around for over three times longer with written language and the God you choose to worship is not only a lean mean killing machine but he is late on the religious scene as well, as many other gods outdate him by quite some time, and have higher moral standards.

Have you no response to what I actually wrote?

I did respond to what you wrote if you would bother to think.

The question posed is what does the bible say about things like witchcraft etc.

You cherry picked some verses that condemn it.

I cherry picked some verses that are obviously ignored by xtiananity at large.

The point being:  You can't have it both ways.  So either accept some "evil" new age practices or start killing gays, foreigners (in Israel), people who eat lobster, sons who disobey parents etc.

The bible is a hate book.

fuji,

QuoteThe bible is a hate book.

You sound pretty hateful yourself.

Exactly what have I said that makes me hateful?

Most people who know me think I'm a liberal tree hugger.

You accused me of not addressing what you've stated, and now you've refused to address what I have stated - - and reverted to name calling.

The Bible is in fact a hate book.  If you read it.  It is filled with tales of genocide's (by God and directed from God) and murders (by God and directed from God).  It is my OPINION that killing people either individually or by race or beliefs is just wrong;  I understand that you/Jehovah/Bible does not share that opinion.  Just because I point out flaws you cannot/will not defend does not make me hateful.

I love you man!

Alot of the references to things such as kill those who invade israel, ect. are mostly in reference to the Babelonian Exile that had befallen the country at that time. The bible (old testament) is not to be taken litereally, I mean, c'mon if you look at it that way there were 2 creation stories. They are merely stories of the time to explain things of greater meaning. God inspired or not they are just a compilation of many many writings during the Babelonian exile. When they say things like God told them to 'kill' or irradicate a country it's often because the country was to war with that country and it was how they recorded history. Thier way of recording history (as of all other religions of the time) was to suppport them and not have it literal, today we have a literal history (e.g. The U.S. went to war with Iraq) thier history would've been (God commanded us to war with Iraq because of the many atrocities of the dictator) people of that time wouldn't believe it literally, they took it as there were reasons to war because the person did immoral things, they didn't think if they read or heard that that God literally told him, which is one of the problems in the bible today, no one really learns how to understand this nonliteral record of history. Sure, parts may of happened, just like Troy, as we now know existed, but they were destroyed by the Greeks as mythology portrayed it but rather over a 5 year war about sea rites.

Hope this gives you an idea.

G'Day Quantitativefool

I class my self as a christen, but I no longer go to Church, because I believe that belief is a personal thing. you cant take what someone says as the truth and disregard everything else. you must make up you own mind, by experimenting and learning for yourself you come to your own conclusion.

allot of damage has been done by the Church in its 2000 years.
The bible teaches tolerance, but where is the tolerance in the Church?

YES!  I know that a lot of the bible should not be taken literally.

That was my point.   If you do not take the commands to kill a disobedient son literally, then why should you take it literally not to practice witchcraft?

BOOM, now that you've opened that age old can of worms you'll get people arguing over HOW to interpret different books, chapter, versus of the bible.

And ALL people (esp the church) tend to find an interpretation that AGREEs with what they BELIEVE already - - therefore the Bible is basically USELESS because anyone with enough inclination can make it support whatever ideal(s) they want.  OR you could go and be a complete (idiotic) fundamentalist and take all literally (that is until some a$$hole like me points out the bible approves of rape and other ignored gems, then just ignore, ignore, ignore).

This is exactly why fundies are so rigid on the bible being the infallible word of God.  The second they admit things are open to interpretation their world comes crumbling down around them.  How do you KNOW their strict/literal interpretation is correct?  They'll tell you how:  it is GODs word, without error (one can't argue with that).  This is why fundies INSIST the earth is ~5000 years old, even a person with a 6th grade science level could tell you that's wrong.  If they admit they know the earth is older, that means the bible is not infallible and therefore open to interpretation.

There are SOOOOO many interpretations that make MUCH more theological sense AND historical sense (not to mention scientific) than current christian theology that once fundamentalism is squashed like the inbred rat that it is, a new genre of "christianity" will emerge.  This has actually already happened historically several times.  There have been many christian sects that have lived and died since "christ" that one wonders if than can be counted.  Fundies have always lasted because people are pretty dumb/lazy when you get right down to it, and its easier to tell/convince somebody to "just take it all word for word" than to actually attempt to get that same somebody to STUDY and LEARN.  But like I said from the get go, if most people STUDIED the bible (that means science, language, history, human psychology etc.) most people would realize its mostly garbage to begin with (though it does have SOME historical value).

How exactly do you rationalize the idea that God/Jesus are fine with you experimenting with non-biblical spirituality, spirits and occultism, when the bible specifically prohibits it as the domain of sinful witchcraft leading to Satan?

It seems to me like you're trying to have the best of both worlds. While spirituality might allow it, the Bible doesn't.

I define a Christian as someone who follows the bible's commandments literally. If you're not, you're being rather hypocritical, picking and choosing what to believe and what not to. The bible itself says it is sacred text not to be defiled.

Also, here's two related forums I've been looking at... one's locked for some reason, I'm only on page two so I don't know why yet... but I will...

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13587&highlight=bible
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7861&highlight=bible

What is your definition of "following the Bible literally"?

Do you mean following as per English transation?  Because if you do enough research, you will find that there are parts of the Bible that in English, don't exactly mean the same thing as the original language.  Its the literal translation of the Bible that English speaking Christians follow, and as such, I believe can be misguided.

One only needs to look at the example of the word "Hell" to get an idea.

I use this example because it is one of the better short articles on such.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/PaleHorse13x/Hell.html

Here's another one that was brought to my attention on another forum.

Romans 12:14 says "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse." In verses 17-21 it teaches to never pay back evil for evil; to try to live at peace with all; to NEVER TAKE REVENGE, BUT LEAVE ROOM FOR THE WRATH OF GOD, for "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord".

That being said - as the point was raised, should Christians not file lawsuits against those who do them wrong?  Is that not a form of "payback" or "revenge"?

No, they shouldn't. That is the wrath of man, cursing him. How is suing a man blessing him?

Waiting for the wrath of god means waiting for him to trip and break his neck on a sidewalk.

QuoteHow exactly do you rationalize the idea that God/Jesus are fine with you experimenting with non-biblical spirituality, spirits and occultism, when the bible specifically prohibits it as the domain of sinful witchcraft leading to Satan?

The Bible prohibits idolatry, necromancy, and (debatably) witchcraft.  The Bible also describes instances of early Christians doing things that sound suspiciously like astral projection, having visions, prophetic dreams, and so forth.  There was also a lot of spiritual stuff going on in alternate Christian groups whose writings didn't happen to make it into the Bible, but who I nonetheless view as valid expressions of Christian faith.

So, while the forbidden subjects do occasionally show up here, the ones that aren't are much more prominent.  As a Christian, I see nothing wrong with trying to develop spiritually, or cultivating the ability to have OBEs.  As long as I'm not trying to raise the dead or sacrificing puppies to Moloch, I'm really not seeing any conflict here.

Thanks for the plug, Laiana.   :D

Quote from: PalehorseAs long as I'm not trying to raise the dead

What's wrong with that ?

If Yehoshua did it (resurrected Lazarus) - then why can't i try ?

Lol, well I actually meant in the sense of raising their spirit in order to communicate with it, have it do your bidding, or something like that... whereas Jesus raised Lazarus back to life.

But yeah, if you want to attempt the latter, go for it.  Jesus *did* say his followers would be able to do everything he did and more, after all.

Guys, the thing you don't seem to understand is that guys like Jacob didn't WILL themselves to have dreams, they didn't try to astrally project, they didn't try to heal. God did it. He gave him the visions, He told them how to heal, and it only worked when He wanted it to.

The powers practised here are what the bible would refer to witchcraft. Even if you're theoretically 'pulling holy light from heaven to heal', you're still pulling it, not being given it.

If Jesus says one day everyone will have his powers, then you wait for God to give him to you, you don't try to take them from Him.

(Note: to be polite, I have capitalized pronouns referring to God, in standard biblical fashion, which I'll try to continue to do here.)

it wouldn't be accepted by society, or by the church or any die-hard christian finatics who take the bible so literal that anything but what they believe is of satan.

there's nothing wrong with it.  stop being afraid of something because your church says it's wrong.  we have an ability, and in this ability we can learn so much about ourselves and be better people.  since when does our god condemn us for wanted to be in a closer state of mind to him?  since when are we condemned for disciplining ourselves mentally?

don't let yourselves be told by someone else what is evil and what isn't.  the world is full of blind people.  god knows this, and the majority of you should know this.  unless of course you're one of the projecters who are satanist morons and are obsessed with the concept of "evil."  those are the ones who voted it being against christianity.

Tyciol:

Like I said, Jesus specifically said we'd be able to do everything he did and more.  For the majority of Christians who believe Jesus is God (I have a slightly modified view), this amounts to a "go ahead" for AP and related stuff.  Also, when you consider the view that God is omnipotent and omniscient, technically He's the one behind our ability to do this stuff even if He's not directly yoinking us out of body.

As for me, I tend to think that the biblical characters who were given those experiences have shown us what's possible, and now it's up to us to take the ball and run with it.  When a parent is teaching a child to swim, they first take the child into the water, then hold on to him for a while so he can get the feel for it.  Eventually the parent lets go and lets the child swim for himself, though the parent is still never far away.  Once the kid actually knows how to jump in and swim for himself, what sense is there in continuing to carry him into the water?

Quote from: TyciolGuys, the thing you don't seem to understand is that guys like Jacob didn't WILL themselves to have dreams, they didn't try to astrally project, they didn't try to heal. God did it. He gave him the visions, He told them how to heal, and it only worked when He wanted it to.

So what about those who have naturaly been able to project/heal all their life and didn't necessarily "seek" to do so?  Are THEY doing God's word, or are they too being "deceived by the Devil" (As so many Christians believe).

Palehorse - hey cool!  Didn't realise that was your site, I found it on Google.  That particular article really did open my eyes, as I am currently researching background and histories of Christian beliefs and am finding out all sorts of fascinating stuff.  Thanks for writing it!!

Quote from: TyciolIf Jesus says one day everyone will have his powers, then you wait for God to give him to you, you don't try to take them from Him.

God is truly omnipotent !

You can't take something from an omnipotent being without his, her or its will.

If you think that someone can do something against the will of God then you're placing that individual above God - pure logic.

So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

QuotePalehorse - hey cool! Didn't realise that was your site, I found it on Google. That particular article really did open my eyes, as I am currently researching background and histories of Christian beliefs and am finding out all sorts of fascinating stuff. Thanks for writing it!!

Whoa, awesome... I figured you just got it from here, as I think I've linked to it before, but that's really cool if people are finding it on google.  Small world, eh?  

But yeah, it was something I did as an assignment for an english class several years ago.  Figured it was info that people really should be aware of, so I put it up as the first of several essays; little did I expect the numerous positive responses I've gotten since then.  I'm very pleased to see that there appear to be a lot more people than I thought receptive to the idea of universal reconciliation.  :D

Anyway, the background and history of Christian belief is probably my favorite topic of study, and what I'm trying to base my own belief system on as much as it's possible to reconstruct it (and I'm also an uber-theology-geek anyway), so if you ever want to chat about anything, feel free to keep in touch.

Thanks again!

God (or anybody) is not omnipetient.  

You CANNOT under ANY circumstances have  an omnimax creator god and freewill both.  It is logically impossible.

This has been a dead horse before the first horse died.  But none the less here is a good thread on it:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=97672

I'll cerainly not be pulled into such a futile argument tho.  It just causes one to pull ones hair out.  Its a none issue.

Quote from: fuji257God (or anybody) is not omnipetient.  

You CANNOT under ANY circumstances have  an omnimax creator god and freewill both.  It is logically impossible.

Well... i wasn't talking about a Christian perception of God - big, grey bearded old man who (according to the Bible) needed 6 whole days to create this tiny planet and who is too weak to  destroy the army of evil demons led by his archenemy Lucifer.

In my opinion God is Everything and i mean really EVERYTHING.

Everything of course including you and me and Lucifer, Hitler and every killer, rapist and child
molester.

To people who like to judge, this means that God is both good and evil at the same time.

I'll simply say that God (Everything) is ADEQUATE.

You could say: Killers, rapists ? Adequate ? No way !

But you simply don't have an access to enough information to judge.

For example:
Imagine what would happen if some crazy psycho killed Hitler's mother when she was for example 10 years old - we wouldn't have WW2 and tens of millions of victims (of course if caught - the psycho should be punished because he killed a totally innocent person).

And another example:
Some people think that WW2 gave us a great lesson about nazism and horrors of global conflict before we had an easy access to weapons of mass destruction - now we know that the next global war would be the last.


Regarding "freewill" - if you are a tiny part of Everything (God) then your will IS God's will.


ps. My knowledge about God is based on eastern religions (Hinduism etc).

ps2. Is it possible to be bigger and more powerful than Everything ? (i would say no).

Interesting take on things. Based on my knowledge of Taoism and Hinduism you sound more like a Taoist than a Hindu.  But you know what you are huh?  That is about the only thing we can know when it comes to religion at times.

I know a lot of (to the left) "christians" that after hearing their beliefs, I find that they are actually Quakers - but don't even know it.  They've just been raised as Christians and have mental blocks about looking into other branches.

I found a REALLY COOL site that tells you, based on your beliefs what religion you most closely match:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

The first time I took it (a year or so ago) I learned I was a 100% Jainist!  I didn't even know what that was!  Of course I do a lot of studying and reading and contemplating so my opinions/beliefs change frequently.

Quote from: fuji257I found a REALLY COOL site that tells you, based on your beliefs what religion you most closely match:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

The first time I took it (a year or so ago) I learned I was a 100% Jainist!  I didn't even know what that was!  Of course I do a lot of studying and reading and contemplating so my opinions/beliefs change frequently.

Cool  8)

My results:

1.  New Thought (100%)  
2.  New Age (97%)  
3.  Neo-Pagan (91%)  
4.  Scientology (83%)  
5.  Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (82%)  
6.  Mahayana Buddhism (73%)  
7.  Unitarian Universalism (71%)  
8.  Liberal Quakers (63%)  
9.  Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (59%)  
10.  Hinduism (58%)  
11.  Taoism (56%)  
12.  Theravada Buddhism (51%)  
13.  Reform Judaism (40%)  
14.  Sikhism (30%)  
15.  Jainism (28%)  
16.  Secular Humanism (28%)  
17.  Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (25%)  
18.  Nontheist (24%)  
19.  Bahá'í Faith (23%)  
20.  Orthodox Quaker (23%)  
21.  Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (21%)  
22.  Orthodox Judaism (20%)  
23.  Jehovah's Witness (17%)  
24.  Seventh Day Adventist (11%)  
25.  Islam (5%)  
26.  Eastern Orthodox (0%)  
27.  Roman Catholic (0%) - LOL  :D

I just took it agian for fun:


   
1.    Mahayana Buddhism (100%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
2.    Unitarian Universalism (87%) javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
3.    Theravada Buddhism (87%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
4.    Hinduism (86%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
5.    New Age (84%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
6.    Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants  (82%)javascript:emoticon(':?')
7.    Neo-Pagan (81%) javascript:emoticon('8)')
8.    Liberal Quakers (80%)
9.    Bahá'í Faith (75%)
10.    Jainism (74%)
11.    Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (72%) javascript:emoticon(':shock:')
12.    New Thought (69%)
13.    Sikhism (68%)
14.    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (60%) javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
15.    Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (59%) javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
16.    Orthodox Judaism (59%) javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
17.    Taoism (53%)
18.    Scientology (52%) javascript:emoticon(':twisted:')
19.    Orthodox Quaker (50%)
20.    Reform Judaism (50%) javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
21.    Islam (49%) javascript:emoticon(':evil:')
22.    Jehovah's Witness (49%) javascript:emoticon(':P')
23.    Secular Humanism (45%) javascript:emoticon(':twisted:')
24.    Nontheist (41%)
25.    Seventh Day Adventist (38%) javascript:emoticon(':D')
26.    Eastern Orthodox (33%) javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
27.    Roman Catholic (33%) :roll:

Good stuff!

Paker7,

Even tho our beliefs are different - I see we share a lot of common grounds!

I'm too angry to post on this right now... I'd probably get banned for rudeness, so I'll wait a bit. Thanks for contributing to my rage folks!

Quote from: TyciolI'm too angry to post on this right now... I'd probably get banned for rudeness, so I'll wait a bit. Thanks for contributing to my rage folks!

So let me get this straight.

You're a non-Christian.

You've been trying for days to convince Christians that you know better than they do how to practice their religion.

And yet... you're angry at us?

Am I missing something here...?

Only at some of the replies. I'm calm enough to reply to the many posts, I'm actually only mad at a couple, not all.. It'll give me wrists a rest from my nunchakuing.

Quote from: QuantitativefoolI have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.

What do you mean by 'fairly' faithful? Anyway, it's hard to say. I think they are, as they're what the bible would classify as the arts. I believe it's pretty clear that anything other than prayer that tries to call upon the powers of nature is evil, even if you're calling upon yourself. Especially in the cases of calling upon spirits, guides, or angels. "The only way to heaven is through me" is along the lines of what Jesus said.

Quote from: MJ-12They can be blended together, but don't expect to get much support from Catholics. Even though the mass is loaded with esoteric symbolism and magic, that kind of stuff isn't talked about much. There is mention of charisms, gifts of the holy spirity that could be seen as psychic, but they're meant for the betterment of humanity and not for personal gain.

In general, any kind of psychic stuff has to be done with the 2 greatest commandments in mind: Does this practice help others? Does it foster a greater relationship with God? Otherwise, it's just a distraction based on self-interest and would likely be frowned upon as "evil occultism."

The phrase 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' comes to mind. If you call upon Satan to heal a sick child, it's still witchcraft, even if you mean to better humanity unselfishly with the act. The same would apply to calling upon Spirits, or 'inner light' or anything like that. Prayer. To Jesus/God. That's it. I'm not saying that's the only way, but to do otherwise would discard biblical passages. If you're willing to do that, we can take it to an entirely different kind of debate.

Quote from: LogicDepends on your views of Christianity. A more open-minded form, or person, would be much more open to such things, like the occult. But obviously, more fundamentalist Christians would be more likely to claim that such things are blasphemy and evil.

Being open-minded is great, but if you use it as an excuse to sin it won't save you.

- Note; I just realized that I've been replying to page 1 instead of page 5 like I thought I clcked on! Since I've already typed this I may as well post it. On to page 5 replies!

- - - -

Quote from: inblissit wouldn't be accepted by society, or by the church or any die-hard christian finatics who take the bible so literal that anything but what they believe is of satan.

Some things you can't really interpret as a metaphor when they're direct. The whole "don't use magic" thing sounds pretty clear to me.

Quote from: inblissthere's nothing wrong with it.  stop being afraid of something because your church says it's wrong.  we have an ability, and in this ability we can learn so much about ourselves and be better people.  since when does our god condemn us for wanted to be in a closer state of mind to him?  since when are we condemned for disciplining ourselves mentally?

Churches are one thing, every church's beliefs differ, that's why there are so many varying sects of Christianity. The Bible, however, which I do believe all Christian churches are founded upon, is something that should probably be regarded if you want to consider yourself a Christian and commune with Christ.

Quote from: inblissdon't let yourselves be told by someone else what is evil and what isn't.  the world is full of blind people.  god knows this, and the majority of you should know this.  unless of course you're one of the projecters who are satanist morons and are obsessed with the concept of "evil."  those are the ones who voted it being against christianity.

Okay this would be the first thing that ticked me off. Do I need to explain why?

Quote from: PalehorseJesus specifically said we'd be able to do everything he did and more.  For the majority of Christians who believe Jesus is God (I have a slightly modified view), this amounts to a "go ahead" for AP and related stuff.  Also, when you consider the view that God is omnipotent and omniscient, technically He's the one behind our ability to do this stuff even if He's not directly yoinking us out of body.

God isn't the only one who can give such powers. The only powers the people did get were from being faithful, praying, and messages received while awake or in dreams. It mentions people practicing magic or being possessed by spirits, so he's not necessarily the one behind them, even if you do follow biblical views.

Quote from: PalehorseAs for me, I tend to think that the biblical characters who were given those experiences have shown us what's possible, and now it's up to us to take the ball and run with it.  When a parent is teaching a child to swim, they first take the child into the water, then hold on to him for a while so he can get the feel for it.  Eventually the parent lets go and lets the child swim for himself, though the parent is still never far away.  Once the kid actually knows how to jump in and swim for himself, what sense is there in continuing to carry him into the water?

What makes you think the fact that God gave the ability to many important people gives you his authorization to make them yourself? My thought would be, if he wanted you to have them, he would have given them to you and you wouldn't need to take lessons or practise to do them, they'd just be done.

Quote from: laianaSo what about those who have naturaly been able to project/heal all their life and didn't necessarily "seek" to do so?  Are THEY doing God's word, or are they too being "deceived by the Devil" (As so many Christians believe).

That's tough to say. It could be either. To be safe, one would pray, not attempt to learn more than he already knows, and use the abilities to help people, and never call upon anything while using them but God.

Quote from: paker7God is truly omnipotent ! You can't take something from an omnipotent being without his, her or its will. If you think that someone can do something against the will of God then you're placing that individual above God - pure logic. So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely. As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

Quote from: paker7Well... i wasn't talking about a Christian perception of God - big, grey bearded old man who (according to the Bible) needed 6 whole days to create this tiny planet and who is too weak to  destroy the army of evil demons led by his archenemy Lucifer.

In my opinion God is Everything and i mean really EVERYTHING. To people who like to judge, this means that God is both good and evil at the same time. I'll simply say that God (Everything) is ADEQUATE. My knowledge about God is based on eastern religions (Hinduism etc)

As you don't seem to care about the Bible, or Christ, at all, I'll ignore your contributions to arguing Christian religious theory from now on. Yay, you're #2!

Quote
God isn't the only one who can give such powers.

Who else can?  Satan?  Biblically, Satan can't do anything God doesn't allow him to.  In an indirect sense, *all* power comes from God, since all beings with power were created by God.  So how do we discern what kind of power to make use of and what to do with it?  I believe Paul gives us the answer here:

Quote
1 Cor 10:23
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

So then the question becomes, is astral projection beneficial?  I believe it is, and everyone who does it on a regular basis seems to as well.  Therefore, I will feel free to develop that ability until I see otherwise.  What's more, Satan does not possess the ability to do things that are beneficial for us; his name and very nature is "Adversary."  He can't help us for the same reason Jesus dismissed the notion that he was casting out demons in Satan's name as absurd -- because he'd be sabotaging his own motives.

Quote
The only powers the people did get were from being faithful, praying, and messages received while awake or in dreams.

Many people incorporate their prayers into their desire for AP ability.  ::shrug::

Quote
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Ask, believing that you have already received?  Sounds suspiciously like an affirmation to me.  ;)

QuoteIt mentions people practicing magic or being possessed by spirits, so he's not necessarily the one behind them, even if you do follow biblical views.

I believe magic and possession are a completely different issue than astral projection.  In the period(s) when the Bible was written, magic was invariably connected to Pagan deities and religious ritual, and thus a form of idolatry for Jews and Christians.  As for being possessed, I don't think I need to get into why it's probably not a good idea to seek out *that* experience.  In contrast, astral projection doesn't have to involve manipulating any deities to do your bidding, so there's really no way to make the same logical connection to idolatry.

QuoteWhat makes you think the fact that God gave the ability to many important people gives you his authorization to make them yourself?

Your question is faulty on two counts.

First, biblically there are no especially "important people," only ordinary people that God chose to do extraordinary things with... sometimes *because* they were such unlikely candidates that it would make the result all that much more powerful.  "There is no Jew, Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  The constant theme in the Bible is "wow, if God can do such huge things with that guy, then He could easily do the same with me, too!"

Secondly, I'm not "making" anything.  I first became interested in this stuff in an attempt to investigate strange things that were already happening to me.  Just read a few intro posts here, and you'll see that I'm not alone in that regard.  I don't believe I'm obtaining anything that wasn't inherent in me to begin with... I'm merely developing previously unrecognized potential that was there all along.

As for not being "authorized," well, biblically I'm not forbidden either, and I figure that if it was that big an issue, something would have been said about it.  Suffice to say that if I were to abstain from everything the Bible doesn't have a ruling on just because it might make God angry, I'd never leave the house.

Quote
My thought would be, if he wanted you to have them, he would have given them to you and you wouldn't need to take lessons or practise to do them, they'd just be done.

If He wanted us to pray, the disciples wouldn't have had to ask Jesus how (Luke 11:1).  If He wanted us to be moral, then being more like Christ wouldn't be a lifelong process.  If He wanted us to fly around the world, He would have given us wings.  If He wanted us to post on message boards using computers, He would have invented them Himself.

No.

QuoteAs you don't seem to care about the Bible, or Christ, at all, I'll ignore your contributions to arguing Christian religious theory from now on. Yay, you're #2!

Unless you've recently undergone a road-to-Damascus conversion experience I haven't heard about, you're not Christian yourself, correct?  So according to your logic, doesn't this mean we'd have to disregard everything you have to say on the matter?  ;)

Quote from: Tyciol

Quote from: paker7God is truly omnipotent ! You can't take something from an omnipotent being without his, her or its will. If you think that someone can do something against the will of God then you're placing that individual above God - pure logic. So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely. As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

Quote from: paker7Well... i wasn't talking about a Christian perception of God - big, grey bearded old man who (according to the Bible) needed 6 whole days to create this tiny planet and who is too weak to  destroy the army of evil demons led by his archenemy Lucifer.

In my opinion God is Everything and i mean really EVERYTHING. To people who like to judge, this means that God is both good and evil at the same time. I'll simply say that God (Everything) is ADEQUATE. My knowledge about God is based on eastern religions (Hinduism etc)

As you don't seem to care about the Bible, or Christ, at all, I'll ignore your contributions to arguing Christian religious theory from now on. Yay, you're #2!

1. There's only one God and nothing else.

2. I don't care about the Bible and churchianity, but i respect Yehoshua and true Christianity because half of my family and more than 95% of people living in my country are Christians.

Quote from: TyciolThis assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

What is this "something else" ?

Are you trying to tell me that there is something OUT OF GOD'S REACH.

That would mean that God in your opinion is not 100% omnipotent.
(sounds like a serious blasphemy to me) :shock:

Quote from: TyciolAs for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

God gave you free will because that was his will.

So your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will.

Can you understand now ?

Quote from: TyciolTo be safe, one would pray, not attempt to learn more than he already knows, and use the abilities to help people, and never call upon anything while using them but God.

Ok that's kinda silly.  Don't attempt to learn more than what one already knows?  Does that mean if I don't know how to use a computer, I shouldn't learn that either?  Why should this be not put towards ALL things in life?

I agree with what Palehorse wrote.  I discovered something unusual that I was experiencing, and upon finding out what it was, and what could be done, I decided I wanted to learn more.  

And you have said that the Bible says this and that, I'm quite interested in what the Gnostic Gospels also say - they weren't included in the mainstream Bible, but we can't necessarily dismiss them entirely (well I can't until I learn a bit more about them).  The Gnostic form of Christianity takes on a WHOLE different meaning when it comes to "Spirituality".

Tyciol wrote:  

>>Some things you can't really interpret as a metaphor when they're direct. The whole "don't use magic" thing sounds pretty clear to me. <<

So you OBVIOUSLY APPROVE OF RAPE!!  You sick-O!!!!


(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

   Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

   Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

GOD supplies the raper's their victims!  You "can't really interpret as a metaphor" now can you?  Go ahead and explain it, I've got HUNDREDS* more!

*  HUNDREDS may be a metaphor for ~10-20, just thought you'd like to know since you have troubles with REALITY versus FICTION.

QuoteAnd you have said that the Bible says this and that, I'm quite interested in what the Gnostic Gospels also say - they weren't included in the mainstream Bible, but we can't necessarily dismiss them entirely (well I can't until I learn a bit more about them). The Gnostic form of Christianity takes on a WHOLE different meaning when it comes to "Spirituality".

The Gnostic gospels are certainly interesting, but for the most part they aren't quite as useful as far as getting to the heart of what Jesus really said, since most of them were written so late.  Though I do know that at least Thomas is thought by some to preserve material from an oral tradition that is as old or older than the Jesus material in the canonical gospels, so that's something to consider as well.  Perhaps it's possible that some of the others did too though; Luke alludes to a knowledge of "many" other gospels that were circulating at the time he was putting his together. (Luke 1)

You're like me though, in that I think all available texts should be evaluated based on their own merits and what they have to tell us, rather than basing it on whether or not they happened to make the cut when a group of politically powerful men on Constantine's payroll were deciding what to put in the Bible four centuries after the life of Christ.

Great site with a huge collection of both biblical and extrabiblical scriptures, multiple translations, commentaries, etc:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Interesting tidbit re: magic and Christianity...

About a year ago, I learned that a book had been released called Ancient Christian Magic.  It contains a large compilation of papyri that date from around 100CE onward, mostly from the Coptic Christians of north Africa, which contain all sorts of spells, rituals, incantations, herbal recipes and so forth.  

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691004587/qid=1102127661/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/102-6465937-6712941?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

So take that how you will.  I see it as a good example of the diversity of belief and practice that flourished under the umbrella of pre-Nicene Christianity, and a fascinating subject from an academic perspective.  I'm witholding moral judgment until I actually get my hands on a copy, though.

Dear Palehorse,

Both Jesus and the early church used practices borrowed from Hellenistic magic to cure the sick.  This fact needs three qualifications:  
(1) Unlike contemporary magicians, neither Jesus nor the apostles
    charged money for their use of magical techniques.  
(2) Magicians traditionally believed that if one performed the magic ritual
    correctly, it had to work.  But early Christians recognized that whether
    their techniques worked or not was subject to divine sovereignty.  
(3) In both the Palestinian and the Greco-Roman mission fields, belief in
    the efficacy of magic was widespread.  Its apostolic use served as a
    point of contact to release the faith of those in need.   Many modern
    Christians would shrink in horror at the thought of borrowing from
    occult practices.  But the early Christians care more about what
    worked.  

Here are just a few examples of the early Christian use of techniques borrowed from contemporary magic to heal.  In ancient folk magic, it was popularly believed that a healer's spittle had magical power.  So to heal a deaf mute, Jesus "spit and touched the man's tongue (Mark 7:33)."  To heal the blind man of Bethsaida, Jesus "spit on the man's eyes and laid hands on him (Mark 8:23)."  The man's vision was still blurry; so another prayer session was required to complete the healing.  [Note: if this story were legendary, it would have portrayed Jesus doing the job right the first time!]   This man from Bethsaida had not been born blind.  To heal a man born blind. Jesus made some paste from clay and spittle and smeared it on the man's eyes (John 9:6).  

Similarly, Paul's used the principle of contagious magic to heal the sick:  

"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that, even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured (Acts 19:11-12)."  

A couple of years ago, I used a type of contagious magic to petition a miracle for a friend and his dying mother.  Russ was in charge of Mall security in a large U.S. city.  His mother was in a Florida nursing home.  She had Altheimer's Disease and was now a vegetable whose death was imminent.  Russ flew down to be at her bedside.  She did not recognize his presence and Russ was dying inside because he wanted closure with his mother about several issues.  So he called his wife and she called me asking for my prayers.

I loved this couple and decided that something radical was necessary.  I attended a small Pentecostal prayer meeting.  The people didn't know me, but responded to my fervent request.  I asked them to lay hands on me as a proxy for Russ's mother.  Had I explained that this was a form of contagious magic, they would of course have been horrified.  But they reacted enthusiastically to my explanation.  I said, "You know neither me nor Russ and his mother.  But Russ and I are good friends.  I believe that through this chain of contact, God can release our faith to help both mother and son."  The power of the Holy Spirit descended upon us and we wept as hands were laid on me.

The next day I learned about the results.  Shortly after our prayer, Russ's Mom came out of her stupor and suddenly recognized Russ.  For over 45 minutes she was totally lucid and Mother and son wept profusely as they reconciled and expressed their deep love for each other.  Then Mom slipped back into her trance and peacefully died.   You can't believe how joyful Russ was for the privilege of bidding his Mom a loving adieu.

Many Christians bristle at the thought that we should analyze the techniques and principles employed by Jesus and the apostles as aids in healing.  But, despite modern miracles, we are not nearly as successful in this respect as the apostles.  So the possibility that our techniques might be part of our problems warrants careful scrutiny.

Palehorse, you might be interested in two very academic books that you might get from a good university library or through inter-library loan:

(1) Morton Smith, "Jesus the Magician (1978)."  
(2) John M. Hull, "Hellenistic Magic and the Synoptic Tradition (1974)."  

Both books fully document the use of techniques borrowed from magic by Jesus and the early church and explain why some of the early anti-Christian critics dismissed Jesus as a practicing magician.   Neither author is a committed Christian, but this fact does not prevent their research from being most instructive.

Berserk

Quote from: PalehorseWho else can?  Satan?  Biblically, Satan can't do anything God doesn't allow him to.

This gets into the whole God controls everything and he made the evil in Lucifer, designing him to rebel, and thus has evil within him, and isn't perfect, and that we don't really have free will even though he says we do, and the whole she bang. I'd rather we didn't, as it gets messy.

Quote from: PalehorseSatan does not possess the ability to do things that are beneficial for us; his name and very nature is "Adversary."  He can't help us for the same reason Jesus dismissed the notion that he was casting out demons in Satan's name as absurd -- because he'd be sabotaging his own motives.

I'm quite certain he could provide beneficial things to convince the person as a form of temptation. For example: he might help you heal a sick orphan, but tell you that to heal the next orphan you might need to kill a chipmunk :) If sacrificing a lower possessing demon (or better yet, faking the entire possession and exorcism) could gain him a powerful soul that is convinced (and has convinced others) that they are doing God's work, I'm sure he'd be willing to do it. It's not absurd, it just sounds like a simple defense for simple people (for they were simple folk back then) that Jesus made.

Quote from: PalehorseMany people incorporate their prayers into their desire for AP ability.

I know that, I'm saying incorporation must be enough. I'm going to use a Jewish comparison because it's easier: if you say grace to God a thousand times before sitting down to some pork chops: you've still sinned. Replace pork with devil magic, and you have my meaning.

Quote from: PalehorseSounds suspiciously like an affirmation to me.

Perhaps. It could also be a way of just getting it out of your mind so you don't keep thinking "when is he going to grant my wish?" every ten minutes. No text subtleties should be overanalyzed from a book your wing seems to continually admit has many translations errors in it.

Quote from: PalehorseI believe magic and possession are a completely different issue than astral projection.

The bible never tells you to astrally project, only occult sources do. It's magic, just without the ritual. Magic, psionics, energy work, whatever you want to call it, it's not biblically defined only as praying to false idols. Actually trying to produce effects is NEVER EVER EVER done in the bible. No, you simply pray, ask what you want of God, and leave it to Him to engineer it.

Quote from: PalehorseAs for being possessed, I don't think I need to get into why it's probably not a good idea to seek out *that* experience.  In contrast, astral projection doesn't have to involve manipulating any deities to do your bidding, so there's really no way to make the same logical connection to idolatry.

It isn't necessary, but I often read of 'Guides' on these boards used to aid in journeys such as astral projection. I assume that every Christian here is opposed to that? There is no telling who is a guide, and who is a demon. The only leader there should be to you is Jesus.

Quote from: PalehorseFirst, biblically there are no especially "important people," only ordinary people that God chose to do extraordinary things

I didn't mean they were important, only that they became important as they were chosen by God. 'Chosen' must be emphasized, they didn't seek power, it was a gift.

Quote from: PalehorseSecondly, I'm not "making" anything.

You're developing a supernatural ability. You're remaking your mind, the mind god gave you, in a way the bible doesn't tell you to remake it. A questionable way. See next paragraph...

Quote from: PalehorseAs for not being "authorized," well, biblically I'm not forbidden either, and I figure that if it was that big an issue, something would have been said about it.  Suffice to say that if I were to abstain from everything the Bible doesn't have a ruling on just because it might make God angry, I'd never leave the house.

Turning into a spirit (which is what you could see an OBE as, or communing with spirits (meeting other astral projectors) is quite obviously against the rulings. The intentions must be extrapolated. As for someone saying something to the contrary, I'm pretty sure if you told your average Christian minister/priest/Reverend that you wanted to astrally project or open up your chakras or channel energies through your body he'd say it was devil's work. The bible says to commune with god, the ONLY thing you need is prayer.

Quote from: PalehorseIf He wanted us to pray, the disciples wouldn't have had to ask Jesus how (Luke 11:1).  If He wanted us to be moral, then being more like Christ wouldn't be a lifelong process.

These two, you know he wants you to do because your belief system, the bible, is based on it. He sent a messenger, Jesus, as well as told his prophets, that he wanted these done.

Quote from: PalehorseIf He wanted us to fly around the world, He would have given us wings.  If He wanted us to post on message boards using computers, He would have invented them Himself.

To be quite honest, yes, we don't know whether or not he wanted these or not. Considering that they're both examples of technology, and Jesus was a carpenter, it's not entirely wrong to assume that he's pro-technology. Astral projection on the hand, which is mystic, something spiritual that isn't prayer, something highly preached against, would be suspect. Just as drugs are things you ingest that aren't food, sin is something you ingest spiritually that isn't prayer.

Quote from: PalehorseUnless you've recently undergone a road-to-Damascus conversion experience I haven't heard about, you're not Christian yourself, correct?  So according to your logic, doesn't this mean we'd have to disregard everything you have to say on the matter?  ;)

No. When I present my views, I present them according to biblical teachings. Paker7 (nice name!) started gabbing about how his beliefs differed, which said to me that he wasbringing them into this argument. Personal theories about spirituality are not related at all to this. It is only the book, the accepted teachings of the Lord. Arguments must be made from that standpoint.

Quote from: paker71. There's only one God and nothing else.

Correct! However this is completely off topic as I never said there were other gods, only other things. If you don't think there are other things, you must ignore the many passages about spirits, Satan, demons, and what have you.

Quote from: paker72. I don't care about the Bible and churchianity, but i respect Yehoshua and true Christianity because half of my family and more than 95% of people living in my country are Christians.

I'm not getting into specific sects of Christianity, and if you think that anyone who goes to a church isn't a Christian, I think you should re-examine your beliefs as many on these boards may disagree with you.

I don't know what Yehoshua is... is that anything like Yahweh? As for respecting it only because 50% of your family and 95% of the people believe it (and I'm curious as to what country this is...) then that is a bad reason to believe in something.

If you do not care about the Bible: where do you get the teachings of Jesus? How do you know his name is Jesus? How do you verify your beliefs are founded upon real things at all? The bible is the only document I know of that true Christian teachings are recorded on. The only other way is word of mouth, which I can tell you right now is totally unreliable about two thousand years.

If you wish to denounce certain Bibles for translation errors that's fine, but denouncing the Holy Bible as a whole is quite un-Christian. Not to say that I'm against doing that :)

Quote from: paker7

Quote from: TyciolThis assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

What is this "something else"? Are you trying to tell me that there is something OUT OF GOD'S REACH. That would mean that God in your opinion is not 100% omnipotent. (sounds like a serious blasphemy to me) :shock:

No, see if I was trying to tell you that, I would have simply told you that. I'm saying there are creatures, spirits, whatever, other than God, the bible tells you that, and they can be called upon for power, but that power is fleeting and corrupting. Stop overreacting, it annoys me.

Quote from: paker7

Quote from: TyciolAs for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

God gave you free will because that was his will.

So your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will.

Can you understand now ?

You said this:

QuoteSo if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

If God interfered with you doing things because he didn't like them, it wouldn't be free will. So you're wrong.

Quote from: laiana

Quote from: TyciolTo be safe, one would pray, not attempt to learn more than he already knows, and use the abilities to help people, and never call upon anything while using them but God.

Ok that's kinda silly.  Don't attempt to learn more than what one already knows?  Does that mean if I don't know how to use a computer, I shouldn't learn that either?  Why should this be not put towards ALL things in life?

No, please don't warp my words out of context to seem witty, the term for someone who does that is Smart-Aleck (or something similarly spelled). Computers are technology, astral projection is magic, and I was specifically referring to things in this realm, not all realms. How dare you suggest that I'm against all learning? If we were discussing trying to expel fire from our palms or morph into snakes, I doubt it would be getting as much support. It is only the relative neutrality of OBEs that makes people think it 'might' be allowed as an acceptable Christian practise. This process is called 'weaseling'. You can weasel out of commitments, you can weasel in things that aren't good.

Quote from: laianaI agree with what Palehorse wrote.  I discovered something unusual that I was experiencing, and upon finding out what it was, and what could be done, I decided I wanted to learn more.

This has what to do with the subject? If I notice I'm being cursed by a devil-worshipper, and learn how to do curses myself, does that make it acceptable?

Quote from: laianaAnd you have said that the Bible says this and that, I'm quite interested in what the Gnostic Gospels also say - they weren't included in the mainstream Bible, but we can't necessarily dismiss them entirely (well I can't until I learn a bit more about them).  The Gnostic form of Christianity takes on a WHOLE different meaning when it comes to "Spirituality".

That's fine, but that's for you to make a new religion out of. I'm only referring to long-established Christian sects. Perhaps the reason the Gnostic's testimonials were revoked were that they were in conflict with teachings, absurb, and probably not real god-induced revelations. I wouldn't clump this with generic Christianity any more than I would Mormonism.

Quote from: fuji257

Quote from: TyciolSome things you can't really interpret as a metaphor when they're direct. The whole "don't use magic" thing sounds pretty clear to me.

So you OBVIOUSLY APPROVE OF RAPE!!  You sick-O!!!!

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
   Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
   Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

GOD supplies the raper's their victims!  You "can't really interpret as a metaphor" now can you?  Go ahead and explain it, I've got ~10-20 (not HUNDREDS) more.

I'd love to hear them all. To clarify, I'm against rape, as while I present biblical ideas I do not follow them in the slightest. So, please go on, I have quite a few Old Testament travesties under my sleeve myself. It really helped break me of the traditions I was raised with :) I find it interesting you would call them fiction :) I won't present my own personal views on that as it may offend the people on this board, and I prefer to remain civil with them.

By the way, it would be rapists, not raper's.

Quote from: Tyciol

Quote from: paker7

Quote from: Tyciol
This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

1. There's only one God and nothing else.

Correct! However this is completely off topic as I never said there were other gods, only other things. If you don't think there are other things, you must ignore the many passages about spirits, Satan, demons, and what have you.

How is this off topic ?
I just replied to your statement.

Quote from: Tyciol

Quote from: paker72. I don't care about the Bible and churchianity, but i respect Yehoshua and true Christianity because half of my family and more than 95% of people living in my country are Christians.

I'm not getting into specific sects of Christianity, and if you think that anyone who goes to a church isn't a Christian, I think you should re-examine your beliefs as many on these boards may disagree with you.

I don't know what Yehoshua is... is that anything like Yahweh? As for respecting it only because 50% of your family and 95% of the people believe it (and I'm curious as to what country this is...) then that is a bad reason to believe in something.

It is very hard to be a true Christian.
If someone calls himself a Christian and believes in 100% of what is written in the Bible and knows that the true name of the man who "died for our sins" is Yehoshua (or Yahweh is Salvation) - then he is a Christian, if not - he is only a hypocrite.

Quote from: Tyciol
where do you get the teachings of Jesus? How do you know his name is Jesus?

His name is not Jesus !

Quote from: Tyciol

Quote from: paker7

Quote from: TyciolThis assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

What is this "something else"? Are you trying to tell me that there is something OUT OF GOD'S REACH. That would mean that God in your opinion is not 100% omnipotent. (sounds like a serious blasphemy to me) :shock:

No, see if I was trying to tell you that, I would have simply told you that. I'm saying there are creatures, spirits, whatever, other than God, the bible tells you that, and they can be called upon for power, but that power is fleeting and corrupting. Stop overreacting, it annoys me.

Overreacting ? Who ? Me ? Hehehehe i'm as cool as an outer space. 8)

Quote from: Tyciol

Quote from: paker7

Quote from: TyciolAs for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

God gave you free will because that was his will.

So your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will.

Can you understand now ?

You said this:

QuoteSo if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

If God interfered with you doing things because he didn't like them, it wouldn't be free will. So you're wrong.

And i'll say again:

God gave you free will because that was his will.

Based on the above statement the following two statements must be true:

"Your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will."

If you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it.

Would anyone here like to support paker7's arguments in any shape or form? If so, I'll reply, otherwise, I'd prefer to just reply to other posters, it's hard to make him see straight.

Quote
This gets into the whole God controls everything and he made the evil in Lucifer, designing him to rebel, and thus has evil within him, and isn't perfect, and that we don't really have free will even though he says we do, and the whole she bang. I'd rather we didn't, as it gets messy.

It gets messy because it's not biblical.  The whole "perfect angel who fell from Heaven" story is based on a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which, as we can see at the beginning of the passage, is directed at the (human) king of Babylon.  Biblically, Satan has been "sinning from the beginning" (1 Jn 3:4).  As I said, his name and very nature is "Adversary," and he was created that way for a reason.

Quote
I'm quite certain he could provide beneficial things to convince the person as a form of temptation.

Your certainty is not based on what the Bible actually has to say about Satan's nature and works.  He can offer the *illusion* of benefit, as he did when he tempted Christ, but he cannot ultimately offer us anything of substance, and there is no biblical precedent for the idea that he has any healing ability.

QuoteI'm going to use a Jewish comparison because it's easier: if you say grace to God a thousand times before sitting down to some pork chops: you've still sinned. Replace pork with devil magic, and you have my meaning.

And how do you know you've sinned?  Because it says so explicitly in their scriptures.  Not so with astral projection.

Quote
The bible never tells you to astrally project, only occult sources do.

There is at least one biblical instance where John the Revelator was "in the spirit on the Lord's day" and only *then* did God start giving him the revelations that eventually composed the last book of the Bible.  Now, I realize there are a few possible ways you could take that, but it sounds to me like he had already projected on his own, and the angel met him there.  The same ambiguity is seen when Paul talks about "a man" (who is believed to be Paul himself) was "caught up to the third heaven -- whether in body or out of body, I don't know, God knows."  

Quote
It's magic, just without the ritual.

Then according to the biblical definition, it isn't magic.

However, I don't believe it's magic by *any* definition.  Every source I've seen has stated that it's a normal human phenomenon that occurs every night at the onset of sleep.  The experiences that originally lead me to this site lead me to believe they're right.  Thus, I don't think it's "magic" any more than electricity was magic before we figured out that we could control it and put it to use.

QuoteMagic, psionics, energy work, whatever you want to call it, it's not biblically defined only as praying to false idols. Actually trying to produce effects is NEVER EVER EVER done in the bible. No, you simply pray, ask what you want of God, and leave it to Him to engineer it.

The exact same logic is used by Christian Scientists to condemn medical intervention, and they're wrong for the same reason.  You seem to be reading this "Pandora's box" mentality regarding knowledge and experience into the text that may well have characterized the medieval Roman church and modern Christian fundamentalism, but is not found or encouraged anywhere in the Bible.  If anything, Jesus explicitly stated that many of his impressive works were done, at least in part, to show us what we're capable of.

QuoteIt isn't necessary, but I often read of 'Guides' on these boards used to aid in journeys such as astral projection. I assume that every Christian here is opposed to that?

I'm can't speak for every Christian, but I personally am wary of such "guides" for the same reason I'd be wary of any anonymous random stranger who showed up and started trying to give me advice.  That said, I've never encountered a non-physical entity, and if I did I would probably treat them with the same respect I'd show to any human being.  And, if they had something they felt it necessary to share with me, I'd evaluate it with the same critical thinking skills I'd put toward any other person's advice.  

Quote
There is no telling who is a guide, and who is a demon. The only leader there should be to you is Jesus.

Sure there is -- that's what "testing the spirits" is all about.  But yeah, I think that's probably where the warnings against mediumship came from -- there's no reliable way to tell whether that invisible entity is really your dearly departed mother, or just someone claiming to be her in order to manipulate you for whatever reason.

However, I'd think that on the astral plane, the playing field would be a bit more level as far as getting a better idea of what you're dealing with.  And while I agree that my only "leader" is Jesus, I'd also say that my teacher could be anyone who has more knowledge and experience in a given field than I do, whether physical or not.  I'd also add that respect of that nature has to be earned.

Quote
You're developing a supernatural ability. You're remaking your mind, the mind god gave you, in a way the bible doesn't tell you to remake it. A questionable way. See next paragraph...

Like I've said, I don't believe it's "supernatural" at all, but rather a natural phenomenon not yet fully understood by the mainstream.  And again, I don't believe I'm remaking my mind anymore than a bodybuilder is remaking his muscles.  I'm developing dormant potential that exists in every human being... which, I might add, was a major theme of Jesus' message.

QuoteTurning into a spirit (which is what you could see an OBE as,

But I don't; otherwise I'd call it "astral transformation."  I see it merely as projecting a copy of my consciousness outside of my physical body.

Quoteor communing with spirits (meeting other astral projectors) is quite obviously against the rulings.

Again, you're reading something into the text that simply isn't there.  According to your logic, if John the Revelator and the apostle Paul happened to be "in the spirit" on the same day and ran into each other, they'd be sinning.

There simply is no biblical precedent for any ruling about meeting other APers... although the scenario above does make the idea of a negative ruling seem rather ludicrous.

QuoteThe intentions must be extrapolated.

Indeed they must... since they aren't in there to begin with.  This is a good example of eisegesis in action.

Quote
As for someone saying something to the contrary, I'm pretty sure if you told your average Christian minister/priest/Reverend that you wanted to astrally project or open up your chakras or channel energies through your body he'd say it was devil's work.

This means very little to me, since I'd say the same of the offices of minister/priest/reverend themselves.  They aren't in the Bible and didn't exist in the 1st century, so as far as I'm concerned they have no inherent spiritual authority.  They do, however, have institutions and hierarchichal interests to uphold, which is why I'd examine anything they had to say in light of that at the very least.  However, if they could demonstrate that they'd studied all the relevant issues and present a convincing case while coming off as honestly having my best interest at heart, I would consider it based on its own merits.

But anyway, you could probably also find many clergy members who would be open to AP.  In particular, there have been Christian mystics all throughout Church history who have engaged in these things; some of which had official status, and some didn't.  It should be said however that most of them simply saw projection, miracles, visions, etc. as just another step on the road to full union with God, and not something to be valued for their own sake.  I just happen to disagree with them on that point -- IMO we have eternity to achieve full divine union, and I feel there's also something to be said for enjoying all one's experiences along the way.  Good site on Christian mysticism: www.christianmystics.com

QuoteThe bible says to commune with god, the ONLY thing you need is prayer.

Chapter and verse?

QuoteThese two, you know he wants you to do because your belief system, the bible, is based on it. He sent a messenger, Jesus, as well as told his prophets, that he wanted these done.

Indeed... but that doesn't make your assertion that if God wanted us to do something, it would be automatic and not require effort, any less illogical.  Many things are undertaken for the lessons learned in the effort as much as the end result.  I would put AP in that category.  I believe (with biblical precedence) that being "in spirit" is our natural state moreso than the physical is -- but part of the reason we come here and are put in a position where we have to relearn to be spiritual, is so we'll gain a fuller appreciation for what it is to be spiritual as well as physical.

QuoteTo be quite honest, yes, we don't know whether or not he wanted these or not.

Too bad He never got around to smiting that first primate who picked up a rock to bash open a nut, then.  Just look what happened!

Seriously, I would guess that there's no ruling in the Bible about developing the inherent faculties we've been given, because the fact that we have them to begin with is evidence enough.  We have, however, been given ethical guidelines for their use... which is, for instance, the difference between using fire to cook your food, and using it to burn down your neighbor's house.  

I would tend to wonder if someone who knew they had the ability to AP and didn't use it would come before God at the moment of death, only to have Him ask "why didn't you?"

Quote
It is only the book, the accepted teachings of the Lord. Arguments must be made from that standpoint.

Then I'd recommend giving up the medieval/fundamentalist shtick, and start debating from what the Bible actually says.

Quote from: Tyciol
I'd love to hear them all. To clarify, I'm against rape, as while I present biblical ideas I do not follow them in the slightest. So, please go on, I have quite a few Old Testament travesties under my sleeve myself. It really helped break me of the traditions I was raised with :) I find it interesting you would call them fiction :) I won't present my own personal views on that as it may offend the people on this board, and I prefer to remain civil with them.

While I respect your desire to remain civil, I wanted to say that I, for one, will not be offended by anything you might have to say on the subject, and I hope others won't either.  Getting offended is generally pointless and counterproductive.  

My take on all the questionable OT material is simply that the ancient Israelites were a group of people who'd had an encounter with a transcendental God, but were still nonetheless largely stuck in the prevalent tribal god mentality of their day.  Both images come through loud and clear throughout the OT, though it's interesting to watch the former eclipse the latter as time (and with it, lessons and experience) moves on.  As I recently posted in another community about one of said atrocities:  

QuoteI consider it a simple case of Judah letting their tribal god mentality show. The belief in a local god who would help your nation win its wars of conquest was extremely prevalent back then (and even seen in certain administrations today), and even the ancient Israelites were not immune to its influence. It's certainly a convenient belief to hold, as it literally lets you get away with murder under the guise of "doing God's work," and as we see here, if you lose the war, you don't have to take the blame for it. Pretty sweet deal, if you're into that sort of thing. But I don't believe it accurately reflects the reality of who God is and what He wants from us.

So yeah, that's about where I'm at on this.

Quote from: TyciolThat's fine, but that's for you to make a new religion out of. I'm only referring to long-established Christian sects. Perhaps the reason the Gnostic's testimonials were revoked were that they were in conflict with teachings, absurb, and probably not real god-induced revelations. I wouldn't clump this with generic Christianity any more than I would Mormonism.

Again, I am not rock solid on this, as I haven't done enough research (and I will admit to that, Smart Aleck or not) but from what I understand, those who followed the Gnostic Gospels believed that were teachings were handed down only those who were spiritually "mature" to handle such subjects.  It was not something for the "masses".

They were in conflict with the teachings that the church was able to use to appeal to the masses - don't forget that the gospels that were chosen for the Bible in the first place, were chosen by people, not God or Jesus.  Once could argue that those who chose the gospels for the Bible were "divinely inspired" or some rubbish, but it was probably more "politically" inspired than anything else.

By the way, its "Absurd" not "Absurb".  (Thank god for Spelling Cow!)  :wink:

PS - Palehorse - man, I do love reading what you write.  I just wish that I could make sense of things to be as articulate on the subject as you are.  Oh well, with a little more learning and research I am sure i will be one day.

I understand Palehores view on OT atrocities.  I also fully understand other views on this as presented.

BUT I believe the whole point I'm trying to make is being missed all together.

WHY is it SO EASY to write off the approval of RAPE, KILLING etc. in the OT but when someone writes off ASTRAL PROJECTION or Witchcraft etc. its like unheard of!  You CANNOT have it both ways!!!!  

If you think that WITCHCRAFT ETC. is bad JUST BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO then you MUST also APPROVE of RAPE, KILLING DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN etc. because the bible "says so" too.

If you can write off RAPE etc. then I can write off Witchcraft.

If you write off one group and not the other you are taking a theology (or what you already believe) and trying to make the bible fit it (which it does not).  IF you respect the bible as the word of GOD you would try to interpret it as accurate as possible and extrapolate a theology from there - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Quotefrom what I understand, those who followed the Gnostic Gospels believed that were teachings were handed down only those who were spiritually "mature" to handle such subjects.  It was not something for the "masses".

The Gnostics weren't the only ones who engaged in such practices -- the proto-orthodox did too.  Do some googling on "doctrine of reserve," and you'll see what I mean.  There was this prevalent idea that there were certain doctrines that, although true, should remain secret because new converts and the "spiritually immature" were not ready for them.  If you search for that phrase on tentmaker.org, you'll find one example... they assert that this was done regarding the doctrine of eternal torment (thought to be needed in order to scare people into morality) vs. universal reconciliation.

Anyway, though I can't provide any sources (which isn't surprising if these things were kept in secret) it wouldn't surprise me if there did exist a body of mystical Christian teaching, similar to Jewish Kabballah, that included astral projection, as AP certainly would fit into the category of "for spiritually mature eyes only" IMO.

Quote
 Once could argue that those who chose the gospels for the Bible were "divinely inspired" or some rubbish, but it was probably more "politically" inspired than anything else.

I would say that it was both.  I think the choice of books that went into the Bible was definitely politically motivated.  However, if we take it as a given that God is omnipotent/omniscient, then it seems to become necessary to acknowledge that He had a hand in it too.

Quote
PS - Palehorse - man, I do love reading what you write.  I just wish that I could make sense of things to be as articulate on the subject as you are.  Oh well, with a little more learning and research I am sure i will be one day.

Eh, you could probably attribute it moreso to my needing to get a life.  :P  But thank you, that means a lot.  :)

Oh, and Berserk, I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your post.  I want to reply somewhat at length, but I don't have time right now, finals week and whatnot.  I'm thinking about making the subject of "a method to the miracles" a thread of its own since it's kind of a tangent in this one, but until then I'll just say you've definitely given me more to think about.

Quote from: PalehorseSatan has been "sinning from the beginning" (1 Jn 3:4).  As I said, his name and very nature is "Adversary," and he was created that way for a reason.

Beginning was relative. For example, in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, and Lucifer fell before the earth was even created, or at least before man was, as he took the form of the snake to tempt them. So technically, if he fell before the earth was created, it would still be in the beginning. Some time must have passed between heaven and earth.

Quote from: PalehorseHe can offer the *illusion* of benefit, as he did when he tempted Christ, but he cannot ultimately offer us anything of substance, and there is no biblical precedent for the idea that he has any healing ability.

I know all this. My question is how you know it's not all illusions put forth before you by him?

Quote from: PalehorseHow do you know you've sinned?  Because it says so explicitly in their scriptures.  Not so with astral projection.

I'm tired of hearing this. Witchcraft, channeling, talking to spirits and all that stuff is explicitly denied in the Bible, the argument is whether or not things like astral projection would be classed under it. Don't bring this up again.

Quote from: PalehorseJohn the Revelator was "in the spirit on the Lord's day". I realize there are a few possible ways you could take that, but it sounds to me like he had already projected on his own, and the angel met him there.

It's an unclear passage, you can't base your defense on that. I'm in the spirit to go outside today, for example, it doesn't mean I'm a ghost.

Quote from: PalehorseThe same ambiguity is seen when Paul talks about "a man" (who is believed to be Paul himself) was "caught up to the third heaven -- whether in body or out of body, I don't know, God knows."  

I'm guessing that's because they couldn't find his body. Sometimes only people's spirits go to Heaven, with their corpse remaining. Then you have cases like Jesus where the body is taken up too.

Quote from: Palehorse

QuoteIt's magic, just without the ritual.

Then according to the biblical definition, it isn't magic.

No, you can pray to Satan for something and still have it be magic without dressing up and waving wands. Similarly, if you can speak to spirits without lavishment, it's still necromancy (or spiritmancy, whatever).

Quote from: PalehorseHowever, I don't believe it's magic by *any* definition.  Every source I've seen has stated that it's a normal human phenomenon that occurs every night at the onset of sleep.  The experiences that originally lead me to this site lead me to believe they're right.  Thus, I don't think it's "magic" any more than electricity was magic before we figured out that we could control it and put it to use.

Perhaps, but until that day comes along, with an issue so closely linked to spiritualism (unlike electricity which can be readily observed in nature) it's best to let those without religious inclinations fully explore it for you. Funny, I thought we dreamed at night, and that it was for the most part the mind reviewing your subconcious thoughts and things. Thinking that everyone naturally astrally projects is interesting, but before it's known, you're spirit surfing.

QuoteMagic, psionics, energy work, whatever you want to call it, it's not biblically defined only as praying to false idols. Actually trying to produce effects is NEVER EVER EVER done in the bible. No, you simply pray, ask what you want of God, and leave it to Him to engineer it.

Quote from: PalehorseThe exact same logic is used by Christian Scientists to condemn medical intervention, and they're wrong for the same reason.  You seem to be reading this "Pandora's box" mentality regarding knowledge and experience into the text that may well have characterized the medieval Roman church and modern Christian fundamentalism, but is not found or encouraged anywhere in the Bible.  If anything, Jesus explicitly stated that many of his impressive works were done, at least in part, to show us what we're capable of.

Capable of with tangible observable definable and definitely physical sciences. Even when you get into genetic and fetus work, it's just incredibly small. At the point when you begin trying to leave your body (the body god put you in that you're supposed to leave when you die), it gets into the other realm. While I'm sure there's a scientific and natural explanation for it too, I'm sure there's similarly one for all the possessed men speaking in tongues back then if you really get down to it. Considering you're not healing anyone, I wouldn't exactly say the motivations are so unselfish.

Quote from: PalehorseI don't believe it's "supernatural" at all, but rather a natural phenomenon not yet fully understood by the mainstream.  And again, I don't believe I'm remaking my mind anymore than a bodybuilder is remaking his muscles.  I'm developing dormant potential that exists in every human being... which, I might add, was a major theme of Jesus' message.

This is, I suppose, where our opinions differ. If you believe everything is natural, then even satan and demons are natural, and there's no problem contacting them, because they're just scientific phenomena. Despite this, I don't think the Bible would support the endeavour.

Quote from: PalehorseBut I don't; otherwise I'd call it "astral transformation."  I see it merely as projecting a copy of my consciousness outside of my physical body.

A copy of your conciousness is the same as your spirit. Can I assume you're fully away of everything happening to your body while astrally projecting over China? If so, perhaps you truly have copied your consciousness, in which case you have created a spirit.

Quote from: PalehorseAgain, you're reading something into the text that simply isn't there.  According to your logic, if John the Revelator and the apostle Paul happened to be "in the spirit" on the same day and ran into each other, they'd be sinning.

I don't think they did at all. If they did, by my definitions they would have already sinned by projecting, so sin upon meeting isn't really a major factor. The wording doesn't say they did though.

There simply is no biblical precedent for any ruling about meeting other APers... although the scenario above does make the idea of a negative ruling seem rather ludicrous.

Quote from: PalehorseIndeed they must... since they aren't in there to begin with.  This is a good example of eisegesis in action.

Christians extrapolate a lot of morals which aren't specifically denoted actions in the Bible based upon the message in the other commandments. Is there anything in the new testament condemning the raping in the old, or telling people not to?

Also, what does eisegesis mean? I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in not knowing the meaning of the word, and I really would prefer not to look it up. Isn't there anyother term that might have been used? Pride is sin!

Quote from: PalehorseBut anyway, you could probably also find many clergy members who would be open to AP.  In particular, there have been Christian mystics all throughout Church history who have engaged in these things; some of which had official status, and some didn't.  It should be said however that most of them simply saw projection, miracles, visions, etc. as just another step on the road to full union with God, and not something to be valued for their own sake.  I just happen to disagree with them on that point -- IMO we have eternity to achieve full divine union, and I feel there's also something to be said for enjoying all one's experiences along the way.  Good site on Christian mysticism: www.christianmystics.com

That's neat, but considering Christian Mystics are the ones whose Christianity I'm questioning, they're the worst reference you could use for it, unless they have more convincing arguments.

Quote from: PalehorseChapter and verse?

Oh bleh I dunno, I remember getting that idea so it's in there, someone find it. I wish I could remember that on-line bible with a search engine for phrases...

Quote from: PalehorseIndeed... but that doesn't make your assertion that if God wanted us to do something, it would be automatic and not require effort, any less illogical.  Many things are undertaken for the lessons learned in the effort as much as the end result.  I would put AP in that category.  I believe (with biblical precedence) that being "in spirit" is our natural state more so than the physical is -- but part of the reason we come here and are put in a position where we have to relearn to be spiritual, is so we'll gain a fuller appreciation for what it is to be spiritual as well as physical.

It's not the natural state at all. The natural state would be the one you're first created in, which is the flesh. Again, I have criticized that 'in spirit' phrase. While sweating is a good image of the hard-working Christian farmer, it doesn't mean all things that take effort are good. The analogy I was making wasn't even related to that anyway, it was that God chose these men to channel his power through, they did not seek it out. So why should one seek it out? Curiosity is enough to become a priest, not become a miracle worker. God should choose to work his miracles through you, you shouldn't choose to try and work them by pulling him through you to do things that are more prevalent in mysticism than in the scriptures.

Quote from: PalehorseToo bad He never got around to smiting that first primate who picked up a rock to bash open a nut, then.  Just look what happened!

Are you perhaps forgetting the whole Eden scandal? Man ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and clothed himself, and was punished for it. You might say he was punished for disobeying, but if you think of it that way, it's cruel to punish all his offspring for it too. That's another reason the 'original sin' comes up, and it's often thought that perhaps sex was what it was a euphemism for.

Quote from: PalehorseSeriously, I would guess that there's no ruling in the Bible about developing the inherent faculties we've been given, because the fact that we have them to begin with is evidence enough.  We have, however, been given ethical guidelines for their use... which is, for instance, the difference between using fire to cook your food, and using it to burn down your neighbor's house.

This is assuming they are inherent, and that you've always had them. People have the capability to sin from birth, the devil tempts you from the day you're born, giving you the 'illusion' of power might be part of it, to distract you from prayer: the only pure form of godly communion.

Quote from: PalehorseI would tend to wonder if someone who knew they had the ability to AP and didn't use it would come before God at the moment of death, only to have Him ask "why didn't you?"

Consider that to the alternative: not even getting to come before him because they kicked you out at the gate.

Quote from: PalehorseThen I'd recommend giving up the medieval/fundamentalist shtick, and start debating from what the Bible actually says.

I haven't read it all, and even if I did I wouldn't remember it all by heart. I don't have the time, or the interest. I do know what other Christians tell me and general Christian ideas, and I do like to dispel them if ever someone were to correct me :)

Just a thought here.

Obviously, I am not a Christian.  The reason I found this website to begin with is that I have (and continue) to suffer from a phenomenon which is called by different names:

Awareness During Sleep Paralyzation
Night Terrors
Astral Projection (involuntary)

These episodes started occurring to me when I was an early teen, at that time I was a Baptist.

This phenomenon happens to me on a regular basis.  While I will not claim (yet) to be a card carrying Zen Buddhist, I have currently taken refuge in a Soto Zen perspective on the phenomenon:

It is a pointless distraction created by my ego.  Created out of fear that "I" do not exist.  I must ignore it, simply because it does not represent reality, other than the fact that it can most likely be scientifically explained.

If you have the time and really want to experience AP,NT/ADSP its real simple.  

1. Stay awake as long as you can.
2. Chase a couple of Melentonin (sp) (available at any GNC or such) with some strong coffee (or Mountain Dew! :D ).
3. Try to sleep.

(if Melentonin has no effect try DMAE (dimethyl-amino-ethanol) or plenty of B vitamins)

Of course, as per disscusion here that may be a sin via Christian standards.  But what about those of us for whom it is completely involuntary?  Are we/they possesed by demons or Satan or some such nonsense?

IS ASTRAL PROJECTION PERMISSIBLE FOR A CHRISTIAN?

In one of my astral projection experiences, I floated near the ceiling, looked down on my sleeping body, and tried to merge with it.  I achieved this state through self-hypnosis.  In another apparent AP I retrieved an ex-girlfriend from a lower plane to which she was consigned after committing suicide.  During these experiences, I was certain they were genuine.  Upon awakening, I gradually came to the conclusion that both APs were merely vivid lucid dreams.  I've since performed another soul retrieval, which, upon awakening, I reluctantly concluded was again just a dream.  

One reason for my skepticism is that I have taught myself to create lucid dreams as vivid as any of my apparent APs.  For example, in one I projected to Boston at high noon while it was midnight here in Buffalo, NY.  I could see downtown Boston in great detail, smell the gas fumes, and hear the din of many conversations blending in with traffic noise.  I even grabbed a woman walking by.  When she screamed, I explained to her that I was "back there" sleeping, that I was god in this dream universe, and that she was merely a figment of my imagination.  She reacted with horror the way a real woman would react to being seized by a stranger.  Embarrassed, I woke up, but soon realized it was just another lucid dream.  

After these failures, I asked myself whether a waking OBE might be more convincing.  I bought the complete set of Gateway CDs created by the Monroe Institute.   After experimenting with them, I soon realized that my Christian faith was confronting me with a dilemma: was is permissible for a Christian to soar through the astral realm unbidden by God?  At present, my answer is a tentative "Yes."  Let me share my biblical justification with you.

In the Bible, AP is a specialized manifestation of the gift of prophecy.  So I asked myself 2 questions: (1) Is this gift reserved for a chosen few or is it available to every believer.  (2) If it is theoretically available to all, can it be developed through contemplative disciplines or must it be bestowed as an act of divine sovereignty without regard to our striving to receive it?

(1) In 1 Corinthians 12:29-30, Paul asks rhetorically, "Are all prophets?  Are all teachers?  Do all work miracles?  Do all have gifts of healing?  Do all speak in tongues?  Do all interpret?" These questions are often misconstrued to imply the answer: "Of course  not!  And God never intended everyone to possess these gifts."  What Paul is really saying is this: "Look around you.  As a matter of experience, not everyone develops these gifts."  This distinction is important because Paul proceeds to express the wish that everyone would prophesy (14:5) and adds, "You can ALL prophesy one at a time (14:31)."  His wish that everyone would prophesy is based on Moses' wish in Numbers 11:29: "How I wish ALL the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit on them!"  There are several points of contact with Numbers 11-12 in 1 Corinthians 12-14.  In rabbinic Judaism, Moses' wish was viewed as a prophecy which would be fulfilled with the Messiah's arrival.  For Paul, the Messiah has arrived and the prophecy can now be fufilled.

(2) Believers were not expected to passively wait for God to impart the prophetic charism to them.  Rather, Paul urges, "Pursue the way of love and EARNESTLY STRIVE FDR (Greek: "zeloute") spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy."  This proactive striving was presumably to include spiritual disciplines like prolonged prayer and meditation.  But would Paul have allowed the use of Robert Bruce's tachniques or the Gateway CDs?  My tentative reply is a qualified `Yes.'  To qualify as Christian, these disciplines would have to be pursued with an attitude of worship and with a motivation to use the experience to glorify God and pursue His causes.  Here Swedenborg is the best modern model.

The most intriguing New Testament example of AP is that experienced by Paul and described in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.  One wonders what secrets he was forbidden to reveal--secrets disclosed to him in Paradise.  In this text, Paul coyly speaks of himself in the third person as "a man":

"I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.  I know a man in Christ who 14 years ago was caught up to the third heaven.  Whether it was in the body or out of the body, i do not know--God knows.  And I know that this man. . .was caught up to Paradise.  He heard inexpressible things, things that humanity is not permitted to tell."

Paul shares this experience to counteract propaganda spread by traveling "super-apostles" who are adept at AP.  These men have circulated reference letters documenting their astral adventures to various churches.  Compared to them, Paul seems less than imposing to the Corinthians in his speech and personal charisma.  PAUL OBJECTS NOT TO THEIR AP GIFT, BUT TO THEIR ARROGANCE IN TREATING THIS GIFT AS A BADGE OF THEIR TRUE SPIRITUALITY.  So Paul resists the pressure to match their press clippings, and instead, gives the Corinthians a list of his extraordinary sufferings in the service of the Gospel.  

He sums up his perspective on true spirituality thus: "To keep me from becoming conceited because of all my surpassingly great revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh [= some sort of physical affliction]. . .Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.  But He said to me, `My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'  Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me (12:7-9)."
If we read between the lines, Paul is tacitly approving AP, so long as it is performed to promote God's work.

In the Bible, AP is normally portrayed as being "in the Spirit" or being "carried away in the Spirit."  As a clearly prophetic prerogative, AP is experienced by the prophets Ezekiel and John: e. g.

"The Spirit lifted me up and took me away. . .(Ezekiel 1:14)."
"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet. . . (Revelation 1:10)."
"After this I looked, and there was before me a door standing open in Heaven.  And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, `Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.'  At once I was in the Spirit. . . (Revelation 4:1-2)."
"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain. . . (Revelation 21:10)."

As late as 200 AD, AP remains a function of being "in the Spirit" through the exercise of the prophetic charism.  In Tertullian's church, AP is actually encouraged during the Sunday service:

"Because we acknowledge spiritual gifts, we too have deserved to acquire THE PROPHETIC GIFT...We now have a sister among us whose lot it is to be favored with various revelatory gifts.  Right in the church in the midst of Sunday's sacred rites, she experiences these gifts in ecstatic vision, while IN THE SPIRIT.  She converses with angels, and sometimes even with the Lord.  She both sees and hears mysterious communications.  She [clairvoyantly] understands some people's hearts and distributes remedies to those in need.  Whether during Scripture reading, the chanting of Psalms, the preaching of sermons, or the offering up of prayers, she receives the means and opportunity to see visions in all these services...After the people are dismissed at the end of the services, she routinely reports to us whatever she has seen in visions.  All her communications are scrupulously examined to probe their truth.  `Among other things,' she says, `I have been shown a soul in bodily shape, and a spirit has been regularly appearing to me.  This spirit is no void or empty illusion.  You would even expect it to offer its hand to be grasped.  It is soft and transparent, with an ethereal color.  It resembles the form of a human being in every respect (Tertullian, De Anima 9:4).'"

Apparently, the state of consciousness that facilitates this woman's AP also allows her clairvoyant insight into parishioners' guarded secrets and insights into the solutions to their problems.  She even seems to have a regular spirit guide.

In the early church, such prophetic gifts are suppressed around the same time that a consensus is developed to limit the New Testament canon to the 26 books it now contains.  This consensus is achieved around 200 AD, but is not formalized until later.  After 200 AD, there are only a few minor quibbles about the suitability of this or that book for inclusion in the New Testament canon.

Berserk

Hi Beserk,

Thanks for posting your thoughts - that has also given me more food for thought!

(This is an issue I have been struggling with for a while now...)

:)

Since I haven't posted here in about a year, here's my "drive-by" reply ...

I suggest you (meaning primarily the original poster, but anyone else as well) read the book "Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism" written by Valentin Tomberg, but published anonymously and post-humously. Tomberg was a devoted Hermetic initiate, well versed in many streams of esoterica, who later in life converted to Roman Catholicism. I believe this rather large tome addresses many of the questions raised and will help guide your journey.

Hello everyone , since this is my first post , may I just say as a matter of introduction that as a 48 yr old male , I have had "spiritual" experiences my whole life . From OOB'S to Trance channeling , Aura readings , psychometry, yada yada  ...the whole gambit .Pretty much you name it I did it PSI wise . Though I was raised RCath. I was never told theses things were evil or against God's word . I did use these "gifts" to help people . It wasn't until over twenty five years later when I became "born again" , that I was told they were Demonic and I needed to go through "deliverance". :?  Now its twenty years after the fact and I have come full circle . After YEARS of Bible study I have come to the conclusion that the "modern Church " is deceiving Christians into believing something that is erroneous . :cry:
Christianity actually is really very simple , many of us have just chosen to complicate matters and embrace half truths . ...
Do you know the question ?.......
.
.
.
Are we under Law or Grace ? :wink:
I will leave this thread at the point and see if there is any real interest .

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


The Bible warns us that psychic phenom and sorcery are to be avoided at all costs.

It is a work of the flesh and not the Spirit.

If you are serious about Christ and His Path than you need to focus on these qualities..........

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and selfcontrol. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

QuoteOf course, as per disscusion here that may be a sin via Christian standards. But what about those of us for whom it is completely involuntary? Are we/they possesed by demons or Satan or some such nonsense?

Yes people can become possesed without their knowledge of it, you are not supposed to hide your "I" under a pillow and become a drone my friend!

You are a wonderful, unique person that does not need to run away from his own self.

We just need to refine ourselves, not destroy.

The Lord wants us to be real people, real individuals that participate in life and spend our time serving Him, not destroying our ego.

Satan wants that for us. He wants us to become nothing and not inherit Eternal Life.

Posession can happen to people who are not willing for it to happen. It is scary and I will pray for you.

Soma-Sight , since you are quoting from the Law, I guess Jesus death on the cross didn't nullify it after all.

Sorry but we are NO LONGER under the Law, but grace. Nice try :D

QuoteSoma-Sight , since you are quoting from the Law, I guess Jesus death on the cross didn't nullify it after all.

Sorry but we are NO LONGER under the Law, but grace. Nice try

ozonerider, Just because we are under Grace does not give us the right to murder, steal, commit adultery, become sorcerers, etc.

The Bible is very clear on what the Fruits of TRUE believe are and false belief.

If you believe in the Bible truly than YOU DONT WANT to do things contrary to His Will because the Holy Spirit is in control of you.

Nice Try.


19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and selfcontrol. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Quote from: Soma-Sightozonerider, Just because we are under Grace does not give us the right to murder, steal, commit adultery, become sorcerers, etc.

 :evil:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :evil:

Let me guess - is the Malleus Maleficarum (http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/downloads/index.html) your second favorite book after the Bible ?

paker7,

Witchcraft is evil.

Is that so hard to understand or feel in your heart?

Just dont do it.

Soma-Sight, there you go again, you just don't get it do you ?
I thought Jesus destroyed the Devil (evil) on the cross and the LAW .
"Without the Law there is NO transgression."

Get it ? The first Adam bombed out and ate from the "Tree of Good and Evil". The second Adam (Jesus) didn't and NULLIFIED the ENTIRE LAW at the Cross .

No Law, gone kaput, therefore ,who are you to judge what is good and Evil without going back to the Law?

The very first point I made ,  GRACE = No LAW  :D

Quote from: Soma-Sightpaker7,

Witchcraft is evil.

Why ?

Quote from: paker7

Quote from: Soma-Sightpaker7,

Witchcraft is evil.

Why ?

I think a better question (to Soma Sight) at this point would be -- how do you define "witchcraft"?

I don't believe anything about it goes against the Cath. principles per se.  At least from the top of my head, nothing clashes with them.  As you venture and discover things, you may notice some discrepencies between the two, but that's not necesarilly a bad thing.


Fear drives people to do such crazy things :\

Quote from: QuantitativefoolI have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.

Quote from: ozonerider
Get it ? The first Adam bombed out and ate from the "Tree of Good and Evil". The second Adam (Jesus) didn't and NULLIFIED the ENTIRE LAW at the Cross .
No Law, gone kaput, therefore ,who are you to judge what is good and Evil without going back to the Law?

Not quite biblically accurate.

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Exactly what it means to "fulfill" the law is a matter of debate, but the fact remains that the very first Christians, who were all Jewish, remained religious Jews for the rest of their lives.  So, obviously they didn't understand Jesus to have gotten rid of the law completely.  Then again, after the temple fell in 70AD (and with it the priesthood and everything pertaining to sacrifice), much of it became a moot point.

I think the better question would be that of what business we (and I'm assuming we're all gentiles) would have binding ourselves to ancient Jewish religious law.  The question of whether gentiles are obligated to follow the law was decided at the council of Jerusalem, as recorded in Acts 15, and the answer was "no."  

Does that mean we can (or rather, should) live by any standard we feel like?  Not at all.  As Paul said in 1 Cor. 6:12 and elsewhere "everything is permissible for me, but not everything is beneficial.  Everything is lawful, but I will not be mastered by anything."  Put together with Jesus' teachings, the ideal Christian "rule for living" soon becomes clear -- "love God, love your neighbor, and use the common sense God gave ya."

Jesus said:

" If ye love me, keep my commandments. " (John 14:15 KJV)

What were these commandments that Jesus was referrring to?

The Paul of the Bible summarizes God's law for mankind in one verse:

"For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14 RSV)

This has become known as the "Royal Law".

If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. (James 2:8 RSV)


Jesus Himself went into more detail about what He wants us to do and not to do. Although we are saved by grace, not by works if we follow only the Royal Law we demonstrate our love for what God through Jesus Christ as done for us.

It is even better if we can also keep all of the Commandments of Jesus, since is thew way in which we can accomplish two very important things:


1) Demonstrate to non-Christians that we truly are followeres of Christ.
These Commandments of Jesus have a very special place of high priority for all Christians because The Lord said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15 KJV). (Emphasis mine)

2) Help bring about Gods dominion/kingdom/realm , the same dominion/kingdom/realm we pray for every time we say the Prayer That Jesus Taught Us. "Your dominion/kingdom/realm come, Your will be on earth as it is in heaven."

Jesus also gave the following instructions regarding His Commandments . . .

" Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." (Matthew 28:19-20 KJV)

By these words, Jesus tells us that we are to obey all of the Commandments He gave to His disciples, and that these Commandments apply until the end of the world and GodÕs domion is fully realized.

Withcraft is the use of the Devil's power.

It is the worship of false gods.

It is condemend in the Bible in MANY instances.

Revelations and Galations tell us that those who are witches will NOT see the Kingdom of God.

Acts has a great story of how Paul and Peter met a sorcerer who tried to "buy" the power of the Holy Spirit.

The OT also has instances of the folly of withcraft.

Quote from: Soma-SightWithcraft is the use of the Devil's power.

What power do you believe the devil has that we can make use of?  (I'm not trying to be an arse; I'm just trying to narrow this down to be as specific as possible, since if we're going to debate something, I think it generally helps to first make sure we're all on the same page here).

QuoteIt is the worship of false gods.

This, I believe, is why a lot of things are condemned in the Bible -- in ancient times, if you couldn't explain something, it was attributed to one deity or another, thus for the Jews and Christians it would have been idolatry.  Today, not so much.  There's not necessarily any logical connection between psychic phenomena, astral projection, etc. etc., and gods of any sort, let alone false ones.

Quote
Revelations and Galations tell us that those who are witches will NOT see the Kingdom of God.

Do you have the actual references handy?

QuoteEverything is lawful,

Then stop quoting from the Law my friend  :)

I'm a Christian however I have no denomination but on the topic at hand in my personal views I feel that hypnosis, astral projection, meditation are all gifts I personally believe they were given to us by God and are not evil.....
but I feel I must say its absolutely stupid to argue with this topic. if there's one thing my mother taught me it's there 2 arguments you will not win.
one is religion the other is politics.so why try? The bible also means many different things to many different people. for instance I can point out to Bible verses of top of my head in which I believe they were talking about astral projection. but then again it is my belief. the first is
Revelation 1:10
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

I believe when he says in the spirit he is talking about where his consciousness is at. it is my believe they had he been in his physical body it would not have been worded in the spirit.

the other againis in revelations.
Revelation 4:2
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Daniel also referred to astral projection in my opinion by saying he was in the spirit and he saw a vision of his body in his head troubled him.

I am not however sure what the exact passage is.

I said it once and I will say it again.  I believe God is kinda like trance.
what works for one person may not work for another does it  mean either one of them are right? or is it simply what works...


0

I do feel I must add tho if you have to ask it may not be right for you. there's something in your spirit that must be bothering you enough to concern the conscious mind to the point where it feels it needs to ask and get acceptance from something it believes might be wrong in some instances.

God never gives anything, if you want something ya gotta work for it.  All god does is is proclaims he made this and that, but where is the evidence for it.

The reason christians are christians is because of conditions. They were born into a christian family. You ever notice that a lot of orphanages are owned by Catholic or christian organizations.  It makes the conversion process easier, plus the fear they inflict in them, will have them going to church. And the cool thing about the church is how much money they sucker people into giving.

America is a capitalistic country, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. God only blesses the rich, and maybe the poor at times when the rich feel bad about the poor. So the christian religion has become capitalistic as well.

And besides christianity is a easy religion to understand, no going to hell for wrong-doing as long as you believe in the son of god.  So the practice is easy, so the lazy people follow it.  Follow a lie.

Maybe Jesus is Satan and this is his way of gathering an army against god  for the big battle.  I sure hope Rapture comes and gets rid of all the christians, then I can meditate in peace.

I feel I must apologize for who's ever actions caused you to believe that all Christians are that way. I found out about God through my first projection. he came to me I was not forced to go to him. just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you should fear it and immediately want to destroy it. this is a problem in most of the world today.

I would never dream of calling what you believe a lie and telling you that you were stupid because you believed it. I'm not judging you I'm merely asking for the same respect back.

Quote from: Potential... and the poor get poorer.

No they don't.

Was there some era in history when the poor were better off than they are now? Were economic systems more merciful? So that not having any money wasn't as much of a hardship? You're not interested in solving the problem of poverty. You're interested in solving the problem of relative poverty, which is a jaundiced aspiration born of jealously.

If anyone says, "the rich get richer and poor get poorer" one more time, I shall mercilessly wallop them in the face with a live fish.

QuoteWas there some era in history when the poor were better off than they are now? Were economic systems more merciful? So that not having any money wasn't as much of a hardship? You're not interested in solving the problem of poverty. You're interested in solving the problem of relative poverty, which is a jaundiced aspiration born of jealously.

The gap between the upper class and lower class is widening though, which is what caused a lot of that 'the economy is weakening' / 'no, it's actually stronger' stuff. A lot of jobs are being sent over seas.

http://www.newwork.com/Pages/Opinion/Raynor/Middle%20Class.html

Same thing happened to the French and sparked the French Revolution. More and more power to the elite few until finally the great majority of the country had virtually no power anymore. And money is power in America now whether people like it or not.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/middleclass.html

QuoteWas there some era in history when the poor were better off than they are now?

Yes, relatively, as you said. A lot of really rich guys have more money than they can spend while others are dying homeless on the street, but this has been a problem for a while humanity has yet to rise above and solve as it relies on individual efforts in our current system, and people just don't care (doesn't mean we should give up on the idea yet, though).

The real problem is the distribution of power. And, maybe we'll have another real problem of a disappearing middle-class crisis as things get worse down the road. But America is really no longer a very representative democracy, and when it is, it's more because the government and western, Christian culture are shaping us, not the other way around as it should be.

A little off topic maybe..  :?

There is no jealousy here, only disgust.

The real problem is sex, as long as that is occurring, babies are being born, now-a-days people are having more and more. How does this effect everyone?

Back when my mom had a job, jobs were seeking people to employ and would pay them handsomely. Low supply, huge demand. Now-a-days the supply is high and the demand is low. Because of population increases.

There is a saying, "War benefits the economy", I can see how that works to reduce the population and jobs will be open.

Because of retirement issues a lot of companies will let the old go so they won't draw retirement. And they are replaced with younger people.

Another problem is advertising sex, to promote business. It's like the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

http://www.populationconnection.org/

it is totally beyond me how anyone could get the idea that occult practices are condoned by christianity.
Its in scripture, if you want to see it, just ask. If you still want to beleive there's nothing wrong with it, you're going to have to find away around it, no prizes go to those who guess what it's gonna be ('the bible is false, jesus taught witchcraft and reincarnation').

Isiah.. i agree with you entirely, but we both draw different conclusion from it.

For you that means that you stick to what's in your holy book and dismiss everything else.. which is fine... no problem!

And for me it only confirms my own view that a lot of what's in the Christian bible is simply wrong, pure and simple. Written by men, for men who all had their own particular views and prejudices. Don't get me wrong, it provides a reasonable guide on how to live a good life alongside your fellow humans (provided it is viewed selectively of course.. a lot of it is nuts imv!). Fine if you want to be a part of that, but for me, it doesn't really cut any ice. On the bright side, such restrictions keep the riff-raff away from all the good stuff!
:wink:

Doug

I am a Christian and I believe that Jesus Gave power to the individual,and taut that each person can have the same power as him. I see alot of Christians that that stick to there closed minded ways and are not spiritual in their quest whatsoever.Most Churches that I have dwelt with in these times are for the church not the individual. Thats Just my opinon. Anyone want to take a pole on how much it's worth? lol

oh btw I voted no, it does not

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