I have been called an Atheist because I will openly say to people, "There is no god..well not for me." or "God does exist, but only in the hearts and minds of those who believe."
Most heavy believers take these two lines as insults. That I am saying that God does not exist. However I am not saying that. My view is more that of an Agnostic. I have no proof of the existance of or non-existance of a god. By proof I mean that I have had no personal experience to say yes or no. But by logic the lack of evidence points to the non-existance. But also I have no real desire or need to find the answers to this riddle.
Because of my experiences thus far I have adapted more of the "personal God" idea. That being if you are set out to prove then you will find exactly what you are looking for. The same if you are out to disprove. Because of that god is not some thing that can be shared by everyone. You can only know god on an individual level and not on a group one. This make the whole god/no god experience a very personal one with no resulting physical evidence to support it.
Hence the personal god idea.
"God) is unknown and prob. unknowable"
I dont like this closed-minded definition. If something exists, it can probably be known by somebody.
"one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"
This one is my belief.
I used to call myself an Agnostic because I was unsure of what it was I believed. Then I realized I had a problem with the word "belief". My Dad is a Southern Baptist and it was in his church that I realized how much I disagreed with belief systems. I'm in no way trying to bash anyone's else's religion, by the way, just stating my opinion. And now, you can see that I always feel I have to back up my statements such as these with a disclaimer that I mean them no ill will. [:)] However, I won't apologize for my lack of faith or disagreement. Not even to my Dad.
I have no religion. I've never been baptised or been a regular member of any church. Because of this, I've been called a heathen and been told I'm going to hell when I die. And those people who call me those things don't realize that those ideas don't faze me because I don't believe in hell and I don't believe I'm a heathen!
I get the argument from Christian believers that it's something they feel, not think or experience. I've never "felt" it. I've never even read about any religion that I whole heartedly agree with.
My argument for people who are believers of any religion is to imagine they were born on a desert island where there were no belief systems, do you think you would end up believing in the same God and dogma that you do right now at this moment? Would you eventually "feel" your faith and beliefs?
I do believe though that there is more to life than what meets the eye. There are things around us we don't see and notice because we are too caught up in the physical. It's not something I feel, it's more like something I know, or have known before.
Avalon I get the argument from Christian believers that it's something they feel, not think or experience.
I get that same argument from them. I think I know what they're feeling: the start of "vibrations" or something similar. Vibrations confuse them because they've never felt anything like it, so it must be the christian god.
imagine they were born on a desert island where there were no belief systems, do you think you would end up believing in the same God and dogma that you do right now at this moment?
I've asked them similar questions. They usually say yes because the bible is gods word and it couldnt possibly be wrong so god would make sure I learned about it somehow on that island. Then I usually go talk to somebody more open-minded.
If I was on the island, my beliefs would probably be the same, because they are derived mostly from experience and a little from theory. Any theory is valid, from any religion, science, from an idiot, anything. But if the theory doesnt predict anything that happens to me correctly, it gradually loses weight in my mind until it is completely gone.
Buddha Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
I might have been a buddhist all my life and not known it [?]
Hahaha! I was just coming back here to apologize for that rambling load of rubbish I just typed out!
Once again, thanks for your reply.[^]
I really love the looks I get from people when I tell them I don't believe in sin.
I think I'm starting to enjoy saying things like that to people just for shock value! Bwwwwaaaahahahahaha!
quote:
Originally posted by beavis
Avalon
I think I know what they're feeling: the start of "vibrations" or something similar. Vibrations confuse them because they've never felt anything like it, so it must be the christian god.
I wanted to respond to this because I had a similar experience the first time I attempted to OBE. Most of the techniques I read were from a very methodical (not spiritual) point of view. But as I lay there quieting my mind, I realized I could induce some sort of feeling of movement of something from my feet to my abdomen. I had NO idea what I was doing but it felt familiar (like I had done it before) and intuitive and was the right thing to do. I know now I was moving energy through my body. Possibly the onset of early vibrations.
I didn't have any previous experience or knowledge of what was happening. I "felt" it was right. I didn't label it as spiritual or coming from God. I did it intentionally and consciously without prior knowledge.
That one experience will never leave my mind because it was something I discovered on my own. Self-discovery is an amazing thing.
I'm an agnostic.
I know i believe in a deity,i just dont know which one.
Yeah it obviously makes no difference whether you believe in the gods or not, doesn't make you a better or wiser person either way. The problem with believing in God is that the god a person believes in is usually just a projection of a person's fears, desires, ignorance, prejudices, hopes, egotism and character - which is why most people's gods seem to be devils. A case of man making god in his own image. Personally I do not doubt in the existence of divinity, but I do not believe in divinity any more than I believe that the earth is round and orbits the sun or that society is insane; I know the earth is round and orbits the sun and that society is insane, it has nothing to do with belief.
On the subject of the quoted speech of the Buddha's, it gets to the crux of the problem in society, doesn't it? I think that the central problem in our world is the reverance for authority, all authority; believing whatever you are told to believe - by your parents and elders, teachers, priests, journalists, economists, politicians, scientists etc. But god forbid people think for themselves, I guess that would mean having to take responsibility for their own lives, and who wants that, really?
quote:
Originally posted by mustang
Yeah it obviously makes no difference whether you believe in the gods or not, doesn't make you a better or wiser person either way. The problem with believing in God is that the god a person believes in is usually just a projection of a person's fears, desires, ignorance, prejudices, hopes, egotism and character - which is why most people's gods seem to be devils. A case of man making god in his own image. Personally I do not doubt in the existence of divinity, but I do not believe in divinity any more than I believe that the earth is round and orbits the sun or that society is insane; I know the earth is round and orbits the sun and that society is insane, it has nothing to do with belief.
On the subject of the quoted speech of the Buddha's, it gets to the crux of the problem in society, doesn't it? I think that the central problem in our world is the reverance for authority, all authority; believing whatever you are told to believe - by your parents and elders, teachers, priests, journalists, economists, politicians, scientists etc. But god forbid people think for themselves, I guess that would mean having to take responsibility for their own lives, and who wants that, really?
Agree completely. I think the reason that I choose not to believe in the Christian God is because of the reasons you listed above. Part of me doesn't WANT to believe in a God as he is portrayed in some religions. He does seem to be more a devil than an unconditional loving God. Why the hell send us here in the first place?
There are people in this world that NEED to have God-fear to make it through their lives. Or at least they think they need it to be productive members of society. No way do I believe one needs to believe in God to be a good person. Has nuthin' to do with it at all.
I use to be athiest. I believed with all my heart and soul that there was no way God could exist, and only listened to facts that supported my idea. It was only untill I considered the POSSIBILITY and opened my mind that I began seeing things that helped me realize why God does exist. Christ himself said, "It is impossible not to believe what you see. It is equally impossible to see what you do not believe". I don't agree with people trying to push God onto others. But likewise, it's just as rude to try and convince a Christian there is no God. It's not our job as humans to make everyone believe as we do, but instead accept them for what they are. Only God can convince someone of His existence, but in order for Him to do so you must allow it. He is patiently waiting outside your door, but you must open it and invite Him in. Cheesy I know, but true. You will know He is true not because you will see our touch Him, but because of the way your life will grow when He is a part of it.
BETH: I have noticed an underlying theme in your topics... are you an Athiest (if you don't mind me asking)?
The AlphaOmega;
See the thing is, your words again emphasise this notion that god and 'the christian god' are one and the same and any notions of god outside of christian theology are false.
your words about 'letting god in' etc suggest that only the christian god is the true conception of god,,, I dont accept this.
The christian notion of god is just one amongst many IMO.
(apologies if i have mistaken the meaning of your words!)
I also take exception to the idea that if you dont beleive in the *christian notion of god* then you are 'an athiest', even if you believe in a different notion of god. I come across this attitude all the time among christians, as if the christian version is the only 'True way'.
So NO, I am not a christian and do not believe in the christian notion of god, and NO I am not an athiest and YES I believe in god...
Actually, I think that the reason many people in western society equate belief in 'god' with belief in the 'christian god' is that christianty is the only belief system they have ever been exposed to. Some may have heard vague stories about other faith systems but they dismiss therm as 'mistaken' or 'athiesm' (wrong as I said), which of course suits the church just fine.
Instead, people should get out more.
I also agree that when and if christians start to establish contact with the greater world (including the astal et al) they integrate this into conventianal christian belief, sometimes negativly.
Say they get the vibes and have an obe, their belief system will convince them that they are under attack from 'satan' or something like that, resulting in a truly horrific experience which causes them to retreat even further into the safey of their belief. If only they hadnt been so stuffed full of dogma. If only they had the courage to explore that opportunity, they might have taken the first step into a wider world.
Douglas
PS I also have a problem with people quoting from the bible as if it was fact, saying 'Christ said.... such and such'.
In fact we have no real idea WHAT Christ said, and what has been put in by bible writers later. While I agree that there might well have been a historical figure of Christ (although evidence for this is slim) we actually have next to nothing about what he ACTUALLY said apart from a few parables. There is no way to validitate that anything in the scriptures was actually said by jesus himself, with most of them written later.
The only real message that has come down to us from the man himself (and it is not even cetain what his name was, as 'jesu' was actually quite a common name for a teacher) is that we should love others as we would have them love us and to love your enemy... the later seems to have been forgotten by many christian fundis.
The stuff about him being the son of god etc is hard to substantiate. He may have been talkng metaphorically in that 'we are all sons and daughters of god' but this meaning has been subverted by later church scholars.
I believe that the man himself, if he did exist, was just that, a man. whats more he was married, possibly to Mary Magdalene, and perhaps had children, and he was later buried somewhere after crucicifction.
Some of hs diciples may have later stolen his body in order to give it a proper burial, leading to the later mythology of his disapearnce nad reserection.
I stress again that this is my view and a view of many others, but those who choose to beleive in the literal version as fact should be able to do so. But they shoudnt try to ram it down others throats by stating it as fact just because it is in the bible. The bible is NOT written in stone, an obvious statement but some people seem to forget this.
Douglas
I'm sure many of you are aware, however for those of you who are not, here's a little tidbit for you to chew on:
___________
Definition:
sin - Greek /hamartia/
Meaning: identical to Greek /hamartano/ : to be without a share in, to miss the mark, to err, to be mistaken, to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honor.
_____________________
In other words, the word Sin means to make a mistake, to miss the mark... mistakes can be corrected... or not, who cares, it's just a mistake. They need not be the source of guilt and damnation for all eternity.
I happen to be a metaphysical/spiritual "pipe smoker" as my husband likes to put it. As far as Christianity is concerned during the time of Constantine and the crusades, thousands and thousands of accounts of the life of Christ were confiscated and destroyed in order to give the church more power and stamp out the earth centered religions (Paganism.) Additiobnally, Christ had mystical teachings too which were excluded from the bible. A good source to research this information would be in the Gnostic Gospels. Elane Pagels gives a great summary in her book of the same title "The Gnostic Gospels" which talks about additional accounts of the teachings of Christ that were found in the Nag Hammadi desert, written in Coptic and transcribed by monks over about a half dozen centuries then hidden in the caves of the Nag Hammadi desert during the crusades. The entire Nag Hammadi library has been translated and is available on Amazon.. the best translation is the James Robinson edition.
My point in this long winded (or long written to be precise) is that unfortunately Christianity has been severely distorted from the time of Christ and of course the church and many Christians will disagree with me. I am one of those rare few who believes in the teachings of Christ and like someone else who posted, I also tell people I don't believe in Sin and I don't believe in death... try that one next time [;)]. Even though I believe in the teachings of Christ, I too believe that God dwells within each of us... it is expressed in our intelligence, our creativity and our ability to grow and learn.
Ultimately, I feel that we must all follow the dictates of our own hearts relating to all beliefs and decisions we make. If we make decisions based on love (which has also been described as the essence of God) we can do no wrong. To live according to the vicarious dictates of another (like a Baptist preacher father)not only keeps you from experiencing true happiness, but it will ultimately cheat you and the rest of the world of your power and grace.
Additionally, i generally have an aversion to fiction however, about 30 people have told me to read the "Da Vinci Code" which I bought on Saturday and have gotten half way through it. It summarizes very succinctly in a fiction format many of the things that the church has done in order to gain power over people. the research for this book is amazing and the author does a stupendous job of showing the reader the discraceful things that the church has done in the name of God.
Lighthouse
One more thing:
--------------
Definition:
repent - Greek /metanoeo/
Meaning: to change one's mind, to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
-----------------
The original language of the bible was Greek.
Lighthouse
Why is it that we cannot talk about Agnosticism and Atheism without also talking about Christianity?
"The only way in which a human being can make some approach to knowing the whole of a subject is by hearing about it by persons of every variety of opinion and studying all modes in which it can be looked at by every character of mind. No wise man ever acquired his wisdom in any mode but this." --John Stuart Mill
This is why you will see opposing viewpoints in other forums... so that people can learn and grow in order to expand their own wisdom by gaining feedback and being challenged by the insights of others.
--Lighthouse
I am not saying that opposing views are not good. I am asking why does Atheism and Agnosticism seem to go hand in hand with Christianity. You rarely see just Atheism and/or Agnosticism discussed by themself. You don't see Christianity brought up in the Taoism, Buddhism, or Druidism sections. Nor do I seem those brought up here.
I will try to bring this discussion onto topic. [;)]
Christianity offers no true proofs of anything of a divine nature beyond this world. If such were true, then the divine would offer reasonable proof for those "created" by such a divinity with a reasoning, rational mind. No proof is given so even if such a thing should exist it must not be of any importance for us to believe and worship it.
All of the moral and society teachings within Christianity, and all religions, are really based upon common sense and possibly trial and error of what works in order to maintain order within a society.
Love is something we all experience. We all long to be loved and accepted because we are a social species. Safety in numbers. A large group of humans had a much better chance of survival than a lone human. It seems entirely logical that we developed emotions to encourage and maintain social groups inorder to ensure our survival. Love does not prove any divinity exists.
Being social animals love and caring is important for the group. By caring for the group over self the species as a whole is better ensured survival. So love your neighbor only makes sense. It does the group little good if one person eats their fill while others starve. The others die off, one is left, one is less likely to survive.
Fallenangel,
I agree with you. However, we all come from somewhere and have childhoods. Many people have been scarred by their upbringing and are trying to find themselves. The point of reference in the West is mainly from the Judeo/Christian viewpoint. This is not to say that we must all explore these traditions relating to Agnosticism & Atheism, however, as someone else pointed out earlier in this strand, he was raised by a Baptist Preacher... I will use this as an example since it is a part of this strand... please understand I do not know this person so I will present a hypothetical observation of what I imagine the scenario may have been in this persons childhood and where this person may have felt separate and unloved... it may have no resemblance to the reality of his childhood.
Undoubtedly, this tradition was shoved down his throat and he was told or made to feel guilty and that by having his own opinions and choosing not to accept God in the way his father demanded, he was rejecting Gods love or separating himself from the love of God. Children see their parents as the Godhead... not adolescents but little children. This is where we formulate our basic foundations of our place in the world. After a while, the discomfort he felt by carrying around this pain came to a point where he had to make a personal decision relating to honoring himself as an individual and he rejected the experiences of his past... then turned to Agnosticism. In my opinion, the words Love, God and the Universe are all synonomous, therefore, any path one chooses to follow is the right path for him/herself. I feel there is little if any distinction amongst the three. Because of my protestant upbringing, I generally tend to use the term God. ... but I digress.
Many people reject the religion of their childhoods and turn to a period of constant evolution in discovering who they are. The point of reference though is always their own experience... something that they can not separate themselves from. This is why in this strand, you will see Agnosticism and Atheism discussed hand and hand with Christianity. Because the bulk of expereince of many is that of the major western traditions. Most people in the western world were just not brought up as Druids, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, and Hindus... as my American born Indian husband likes to say, "There were not too many Hindu Temples in Allentown, PA."
--Lighthouse
quote:
Many people reject the religion of their childhoods and turn to a period of constant evolution in discovering who they are.
I disagree with this. Those that choose to explore beyond what they have been taught, then yes this is true. But I do not think that many people do this when looking at the population as a whole. But I live in the Bible Belt. Almost everyone I meet is of some form of Christianity and never consider anything else. They may switch between different forms of Christainity (if that is what you mean then ok I agree, but that is not what I see you saying), but they never look at other religions such as Islam, Buddism, etc.
Fallenangel,
Personally, I am obsessed with World religions, in my personal library, I have books ranging from Islamic Law and Constitution to several books on the Kabbalah to the Baghavadgita to the Tao te Ching to A Course in Miracles and last year I purchased my first Bible in order to use it as a reference for a personal development book I am writing.
The world as we see it is merely a reflection of ourselves so you interpret my ideas according to your own personal filter... living in the bible belt, I can see why you see mainly christianity in my posts. Since that is my upbringing, my point of reference is from that tradition and therefore this makes sense. My personal philosophy may sound Christian to you and indeed there are some Christian elements to my position, however, I have also incorporated parts of everything I have ever studied into my personal philosophy and therefore feel that my viewpoint is much more well rounded than that of the Christian church(es). However, as you are perfectly well aware, to determine the depth and breadth of ones knowledge based on a few posts is a very limiting idea. [;)]
I had rejected Christianity in my 20's because it made no sense to me so I delved into the study of everything but... I am now a student of A Course in Miracles which is Christian in basis, however, it encourages and promotes self-analysis instead of listening to the ideas of another spewed at a pulpit.
Personally, I feel we are all Divine beings... that the reason we are here is to ultimately reunite with each other and experience the high of Cosmic bliss or Consciousness. To reject the idea of separation and to understand ourselves as God... Perhaps this sounds like a Christian idea to you, if so... then so be it. I have come to embrace all ways of light as a means for us to understand ourselves and our divinity.
The reason I have chosen to engage in the Agnostic/Atheistic strand is to have my own thoughts challenged and come to a better understanding of my own personal development. Additionally, I invite you to go to my profile and check out my website to gain a better understanding of my personal philosophy.
--Lighthouse
I am not perceiving what you have posted as Christian, or atleast totally Christian. I was referring to all the posts in this thread. Some contain alot of Christianity. Also I was not referring to this thread only, but to the topics in general. Christianity seems to follow into Atheism areas, but likewise Atheism seems draw into Christianity areas.
I am not truly an Agnostic or Atheist. We could discuss our spirituality, but that is probably best put elsewhere because I really would hate to draw a sticky thread totally off topic. But I do associate some with Agnosticism because for the most part I truly do not know. I also feel that it is not as ultimate to know as some religions like to promote. I will know when it matters. Live life as best you can, Love as much as you can, and Learn as much as you can. What else is there?
fallnangel77
I think you posed an excellent question on the discussion of Christianity while also discussing agnosticism/atheism.
I was taught of nothing but a little Catholicism and some Southern Baptist beliefs. I think it was my introduction to those beliefs that caused me to "not believe". I read the bible and thought, WTF IS this? I don't know why. I like Gandalf's post in which he expands on the notion of the "Christian God". I like what he has to say and this is what I choose to tell people when discussing my beliefs with others, who are 99% of the time, Christian. Because I too live in the bible belt. It's very rare that I get to have conversations about agnosticism/atheism with other agnostics or atheists. :) Not what I'm used to. :)
"I will know when it matters. Live life as best you can, Love as much as you can, and Learn as much as you can. What else is there?"
Great philosophy, simply put and it gets down to the basics.
quote:
Originally posted by Avalon
"I will know when it matters. Live life as best you can, Love as much as you can, and Learn as much as you can. What else is there?"
Great philosophy, simply put and it gets down to the basics.
Thank you [:)] What better place to start than simple and basic.
Okay, here is another point of view on the issue of Agnosticism/Aethism vs. Christianity.
Imagine for a moment there were no organized religion, no bible, no dogma. Would we (in the world) believe in some kind of higher power? Maybe, maybe not. If we did not, would we all then be called Agnostic or Aethist? My guess would be no because there would be no label for that belief or lack thereof.
I think it is the fact that there are organized religions that propagated the Agnotic/Aetheistic label. I subscribe to no particular religion or belief, and I used to call myself Agnostic, because it made me feel I "belonged" to something. I no longer call myself that just because I can claim some kind of belief. I believe in a higher power, I do not believe in the "Christian God". Like Budda's philosphies.
I imagine the word agnostic stems from gnostic (not too hard to make that connection). Gnostic's have a belief in God, agnostics do not. So, I do not think it came about from a belief in Christianity but in today's society, Christianity rules, not gnosticism.
Just another .02 from me.[:D]
but in today's society, Christianity rules, not gnosticism.
In today's 'western' society to be more exact.
The problem mentioned earlier is the fundamental mistake of thinking that 'no belief in the christian god' equals 'athiesm'.
Clearly this is wrong. This definition supposes that all those who adhere to other reliigons like Budhism, Hindism, Islam etc are 'athiests'.
I have heard some christians who actually state this, although it is clearly ridiculous.
Even if you do not adhere to any established religion, this does not make you an athiest.
Even if you only have a vague notion that there is 'some higher power or powers up there', this does not make you an athiest.
It also does NOT make you an 'agnostic' either. An agnostic thinks the jury is out regarding the reality of higher powers or not. However, Someone who has a vague idea that there ARE higher powers but is nevertheless sure that they exist in some form, are not 'agnostics'.
To be an athiest you have to disbelieve in the notion of divine powers completely, whatever they may be.
Douglas
In today's 'western' society to be more exact.
That was what I meant. Other than those who I have met on this website, in my little world, I have not met anyone who does not claim to be a Christian. I realize there is more "out there" than what is presented to me, which is why I am on this website in the first place.
There is a quote that a Christian friend of mine sent me, he thought I'd like it. I haven't decided yet whether I agree with it or not. Something about it really kind of irritated me.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
Other than those who I have met on this website, in my little world, I have not met anyone who does not claim to be a Christian
Seriously?
That idea scares me. Your community cannot be that insular. Where about do you live?
Douglas
Greek word Gnosis
Gnostic = Knowing or knowledge of God
Theistic = God/Belief
A = Not/without
Therefore:
Agnostic = Without knowledge of God
Atheistic = Without belief in God
Just because one may call him or herself Agnostic does not mean they do not believe in God, that is the definition of Atheistic. Just because one does not claim to know all the answers, this does not mean they reject God it merely means they are unsure of the true nature of God or a higher power. Atheistic is therefore one who does not believe in God as we understand the word in common terms.
Perhaps the wisest of all is he/she who claims not to know all the answers.
I reject every notion of God.
There is no divine purpose.
There is no perfect being.
Gandalf - I live in Kansas. [8D] I see you are from the UK. I live in the middle of the US, in a place known as the "bible belt". A few years ago, the state of Kansas decided to remove the teaching of evolution from it's standard school curriculum because it conflicts with the teaching of Creationism. We were the laughing stock of the nation. And probably still are. There were some who disagreed, of course, but not enough to reverse the decision quickly.
Lighthouse -
"Perhaps the wisest of all is he/she who claims not to know all the answers."
Oh, most definitely. How's this for a good quote: "The problem with the world is that fools are so sure of themselves while more reasonable people are full of doubts.". -Bertrand Russell
Sorry for confusing the definitions of atheism and agnosticism and mispellings. There are some interesting definitions here, if one is interested:
http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/definitions.html
quote:
Originally posted by Avalon
Gandalf - I live in Kansas. [8D] I see you are from the UK. I live in the middle of the US, in a place known as the "bible belt". A few years ago, the state of Kansas decided to remove the teaching of evolution from it's standard school curriculum because it conflicts with the teaching of Creationism. We were the laughing stock of the nation. And probably still are. There were some who disagreed, of course, but not enough to reverse the decision quickly.
Lighthouse -
"Perhaps the wisest of all is he/she who claims not to know all the answers."
Oh, most definitely. How's this for a good quote: "The problem with the world is that fools are so sure of themselves while more reasonable people are full of doubts.". -Bertrand Russell
Sorry for confusing the definitions of atheism and agnosticism and mispellings. There are some interesting definitions here, if one is interested:
http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/definitions.html
And a link to an article about the Creationism vs. Evolution decision:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/12/kansas.evolution.flap/
Gandalf, did you ever wonder why Bush likes to talk about God, good and evil, and play up to Christianity in his speeches? The vast majority of the US population is Christian. Most are so because that is what they grew up as and never cared to look at other religions or ideas. Most have never even been exposed to any other ideas. The even sadder thing is, most do not want to hear other ideas and so it can be like trying to discuss such matters with Narrow Path. No one knows how to just sit and discuss ideas without being offended or thinking that someone has to come out as being right. In the US, if you do not want to a fight you don't discuss religion or politics. Is it not like this in the UK?
No, not at all. In the UK, religion and politics are firmly kept apart, to the extent that it is not 'politically correct' for any major polititian to talk about their own personal beliefs.
Although the Anglian church is the 'official religion' and so on, this is really just a case of tradition. The thing is, in the UK we have a large multi-religious population. We have large denominations of all the major Christian divisions but we also have a massive Muslim population as well (there is a large indian/Packistani population here). There is also a large proportion of Hindus.
Of course this doesnt count all the athiestic/agnostic population as well.
Although the UK has been critisised by some american christian circles, I think that part of the reason that there is such a (almost paranoid) effort to ensure that religion plays no part in politics, is because in the UK we have had a bad experience with religion merging with politics in the past; this goes back to the Crusades and more recently to Oliver Cromwell and the puritanical nutcases (banning Christmas etc!).
All this is remembered, so we are very careful not to allow any particular religion to be promoted or utilised over another, for political puroposes here in the UK. Rather 'multi-ethnic' and 'multi-religious society' is the buzzword, but no polititian would be seen activly promoting any particular religion or stating that his/her political motiviations come from god... he/she wouldnt last long in that case!
Of course we get our fair share of bible thumpers as you do in any country but they dont have any real political influence.
Douglas
PS PM Tony Blair has been critisised on this count as he was been displaying worrying 'evangelical' characteristics over the past few years, which some have blamed on his associations with George Bush.
I think I'll be moving to the U.K. Just kidding. I've visited England and I really enjoyed my time there (step family are all Brit's).
I knew that Blair was being criticized. I did not know some criticize him for admission of his religious beliefs. Interesting.
Someone posted an inquiry as to whether someone raised on an isolated island would be atheistic or would have a belief in God. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the example, but that has in fact occurred frequently in history and the answers are in the book. Hawaii, Tahiti, Fiji, etc. come to mind. Also relevant would be the development of Native American beliefs. Most of those early religions involved nature worship of some kind. For myself, I can see how that can happen. The Druids would be another example of independant religious development.
While I'm not saying that atheism and agnosticism never existed in those isolated cultures, it appears rare until a society reaches a point of economic plenty. When folks can produce enough food and shelter to provide comfort and still have time on their hands, then the philosophical debates begin. That's when the more esoteric religions begin to be seen (Paganism, Christianity, Islam, etc) and the atheist and agnostic discussions begin to appear.
The human mind seems universally to want or need something/someone greater than itself. John Campbell has written on this I believe. When you get right down to it, even the belief in OBE expressed by many on this site could well be nothing more than another manifestation of that search for "something above all". My agnosticism extends to that area as well, because I believe the vast majority of the OBE's related on this site are just dreams -- not reality (IMO).
BTW, the Buddist religion would fall into the Atheistic category. They do not, as I understand it, believe in divine deities. Rather, they venerate very human people as great teachers who have become enlightened. Even Buddha is not a "god" per se. And each Buddhist may aspire to become a Buddha. I don't know if there are other religions with this philosophy.
For myself, I have to put myself firmly in the agnostic camp. I am exploring and searching, but have no answers yet. I know the cosmos is enveloped in energy that pervades absolutely everything. Some religions (Wicca, Druids, etc.) believe this energy can be manipulated by those who "tap into" its power, while other religions believe the energy is sentient, hence "God". I just don't know. [;)]
Uh, that woulda been me.[:D]
I agree that a belief in a higher power would develop. Would it be the God that is worshipped by Christians was my point. Although, I may not have made it that well.[:D]
Like you, I'm still "undecided".
Interesting post. Thanks!
Avalon, thanks for the clarification -- now I see where you were coming from! [:D]
I guess my answer would be an emphatic "Maybe". Some early religions do have a similarity to Christianity, but only in a very generic sense. Nature worship often involves fickle dieties (am I spelling that right?), requiring rituals and sacrifices of varying kinds to keep on the divine good side. And more than a few of them require "right behaviour" from their adherents. That's about as close a connection as I've seen.
Hope the holidays treat you well! [:)]
Many devout christians including St. Thomas Acquinas have been known to fall deeply into "faith crisis" where they doubted or refused to believe in God.
St. Thomas Acquinas believes faith crisis are just as important as faith, since you have to question your faith in order to understand it.
The part I don't understand, is this: Once you doubt your faith, what causes you to start believing again?
I see how religions develop, they explain things that otherwise couldn't be explained. Throughout history Gods have controlled the weather, the crops, lover's fertility and the fate of everyone who inhabits the world. Religions explains miracles and tragedies. And it explains the poor situation all humans are in, depending on how you define it.
An uninfluenced inhabitant on an untouched island would develop some notion of God but since I don't belive in God, I think the islander would worship a different God than the Christians.
The islander's God would provide food and shelter, but would also punish fiercely with lava, bad weather, famine, etc.
The christian God promises a reward or punishment after this life, but no promises to give anyone anything in this life.
Once I started to understand that slaves don't deserve punishment, children and virgins don't deserve to be sacraficed, women aren't inferior to men, people aren't born sinners but they're made that way, and people aren't complacent sheep but they have a passionate desire to understand things, then I wondered; what do I need God for? And I've never found a reason. He made us pretty much self-suffecient.
The way I see it, God has promised to burn me in hell for all eternity if I'm bad, and if I'm good I get to be his faithful servant in heaven. Sounds like a trick to me.
Any way, I am Agnostic because I don't believe we can understand God. The more you try to define him, the more problems you create. Even St. Thomas Acquinas, who spent his entire life trying to prove the existance of God and wrote several books (several thousand pages each) in an attempt to prove God exists, admitted that he never could succeed. In our world, God is a logical impossibility. If he does exist somewhere, he refuses to participate here on earth and might as well not exist at all.
On a lighter note, I know quite a few people who openly claim to be christians but secretly are wiccan. I also know people who claim to be Buddhist but are mostly christian. They take what they like and leave the rest.
Coffee, you raise some very good points! In fact, I could use much of your post to explain why I am an agnostic.
You also pose an interesting question: "The part I don't understand, is this: Once you doubt your faith, what causes you to start believing again?"
I have a couple of answers, neither of them to be taken as "final".
First, I think it's a part of human nature to question and rebel at certain points in life. The teenage years come to mind, but it happens again at about 30 and 50 years, on average. But these periods of "questing" are seemingly pretty much a physical process, and when they pass, the person reverts to the comfort of either their birth religion or the religion to which they have been most exposed. In other words, the doubting was never "real", but just a part of the physical process.
A second explanation involves something I've mentioned in other places. And that is that there really is something out there! I am a great believer in hard science. I give scientists credit for having solid proof of the "natural laws" they quote. The whole of our cosmos is made of energy and matter -- neither of which can be either created or destroyed. (Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy). I think people instinctively know this and maybe it brings them to some type of religion. On a nice spring day, if you stand outside around sunup or sundown and spread your arms, you can feel this energy buzzing and humming through your body. (Yes, you can do the same thing anytime, anywhere, but my scenario makes a pretty picture, yes? [:D]).
And the above (maybe both of them) explains where I'm at in my spirit journey. I find the notion of blood sacrifice abhorrent and the notion of a "Daddy" God nonsensical. I also have an ego problem when it comes to bowing down to anything or any one. That rather limits my religious choices! I'm not happy being agnostic. I'd love to be able to have a firm faith in some "greater being". But right now, the theory that's ahead on points in my race is that when we die, that's it -- game over. Nevertheless, my quest continues. [:)]
I have recently gone through what you guys are discussing, or the faith crisis. I've called it the dark night of the soul though.
Although I never had a firm belief in God, as I've entered my thirties, I've felt something profoundly missing in my life and wondered often if "this is it"? Is this all? I get up, get my kids ready, go to work, come home, cook dinner, play with the kids, get them ready for bed, then put myself to bed. Wash, rinse repeat. [:o)]
I started feeling depressed. I found a great book about the subject called "The 5 Stages of the Soul" (don't remember the author off the top of my head right now). It discusses this feeling, how many people go through it and even more interesting how everyone comes out on the other side enlightened but in many, many different ways. It says that we so many times "miss the call" throughout our lives.
Anyhoo, it made me feel a little better that I was not the only person experiencing this. I thought it was all because I just had no belief in God and at this point never will. Part of me wants to believe but part of me doesn't want to believe in anything just for the sake of having something to believe in. I want the truth and I know that's just asking too much. [;)]
Happy Christmas to you all. I had just a few questions that I would like to ask you on this thread.
I have been reading the posts but did not think it was worth to get involved. Just so much disagreement and it kind of multiplies easily. Firstly I find it a bit crude that you talk in the terms you do about Christians , ministers "spew" their words, believers "decieve" etc but seeing that many of you have had most of your Christian experiences with Church people , I understand and sympathise.
My observation and question is this. In the threads and in the posts, people all ask questions. Some believe or refuse to believe based on "How could that be" or "i just dont understand how...." basically using human intelligence and mans limited knowledge, which is (when you take the universe into consideration) very limited indeed. Does that not ring a bell with some of you???. Would it not stand to reason that if there is a God, then his ways nature and reasoning must be quite different and above ours. (if not lightyears ahead[;)])
If we judge the existance or non existance, validiti, plausability or logic of God or the absence of the same based on our conception of how and why he did it, I think we make a biased judgement. What do you think?
I do believe in God, as some of you know. I try to stay away from "Christ said etc" as that would be a stupid and unfair way of reasoning , but the Bible is full of very interesting observations and still represent an opinion at least. As an example it says "as the heaven is higher than the earth so my ways are higher than your ways".
Once in a while I think it is wise that we all just relax a bit, and compare notes, and stop assuming we as individuals can "figure" it all out. We are all like little kids in the proverbial sandbox, trying to explain to each other how Santa flies in a sled!!!!. This is also a aspect of faith and belief, That the universe , God or whatever knows what they are doing, we can rest assured that things are moving along.....nicely. It is good to ask questions and use our mind it is also good to have opinions, but if our opinions become so ridgid that we refuse to take another look at someone elses we ourselves become the "author of our own little beliefsystem terretory". (and we dont wanna go there do we???[:)])
Selah
Mustardseed
I would have to agree with you fully Mustardseed. That is why I am Agnostic and not an Athiest. I simply lack the knowladge either way on the subject. I also agree that it is most likely possible that any god would be on such a different level than the rest of us that we could not possibly know what he or she thinks, that being unless god itself was present and explained things. And I find any one who starts a sentance with, "Well (insert diety) wants us to do such and such, or say such and such" is arogant to think that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt what thier chosen god wants everyone else to do. It is just insane to think that you are so special that your diety picked you over every one else. That is just what I believe.
quote:
We are all like little kids in the proverbial sandbox, trying to explain to each other how Santa flies in a sled!!!!.
I know that answer. From the great scholars Chech and Chong. Its the magic dust...you know a little for the raindear, little for santa, a little more for santa.
Avalon, thanks for your post. I too, feel like I am slogging all alone through a dreary bog, and never a clue as to why. Same dance, day after day until finally you die. And if you're really lucky, you'll die before your loved ones and not have to bear that pain. It's maddening! I will try and check out the book you mention -- can't hurt. [^]
Mustardseed, I think our philosophy is pretty similar, except I think it leads us to different conclusions. Philosophically, I believe there may be more than just raw energy in the universe -- and that we may be just ants and can't see reality. But I still want to know. [:(] The Christian new testament promises in many places that a seeker will find what they seek. Buddhists promise enlightenment. I think Hindus promise Nirvana. All I've found so far is a blank wall and total silence. The closest I've come to a spiritual communication was in Muir Woods in California. Awesome doesn't begin to describe that experience. But I've been totally unable to find that feeling in religion. But I'm going to keep slogging for a while yet, and see what this "doubting Thomas" can discover. [;)]
When I was in my late 20's I was having similar feelings (feelings of incompleteness and wanting some answers.) I just got married and my husband suggested to quit my job and figure out what I really wanted to do. I thought this was the best gift anyone could give me and thought if I could do anything I wanted to do, I would figure out my life purpose. I read What Color is your Parachute and other similar books but they all told me what I was good at doing, not what would make me feel fulfilled, something I would want to do for the rest of my life. I came across an article written by Jon Snodgrass, PhD entitled, "Your Special Function according to A Course in Miracles"(ACIM). I had been a student of ACIM and this piqued my interest.
He addressed these types of feelings you are discussing in his article. He said, "Whatever you perceive to be the reality of your own guilt, sin, or victimization is the exact polar opposite of your Special Function. What is missing is your gift, your weakness is your strength, your special dysfunction is your special function." I thought about this for a moment and said to myself, "Well, what is my special dysfunction?... I'm fat" (I always have had body image problems... as far back as I can remember... I'm a size 8 now after 2 kids and still want to lose more weight) No, being fat wasn't it... then I thought, "I don't really like myself very much." No, that wasn't it either. Then the thought came, "I don't LOVE myself." With that, I started jumping around the room and thanking everyone who ever hurt me. I realized that these people were all showing me the context to understand what I had been rejecting about myself all along. (the entire account is written in my workbook, for the entire thing, go to www.healingcenter.com.)
When I came to this realization, I understood that all the unhappiness and discontent that I had been experiencing my whole life had to do with my feeling that God (or whatever you want to call the intelligence that permeates the universe) was somehow separate from me. I realized through this experience that I am God and that God dwells within me, God is my intelligence, my emotions, my creativity and my Love. Without me, God is incomplete. Without everyone fully accepting themselves, God is incomplete and so is everyone else (since we are all God... in my opinion.) By rejecting parts of myself, I had been seeing myself as incomplete. Once I could accept myself completely (at least temporarily... 3 steps forward, 2 steps back) then I could see that that thing that I was looking for was within me all along. I just needed to acknowledge and accept myself, wrinkles and all for who I was.
I think the "dark night of the soul" or whatever you want to call it is exactly that. We don't embrace our own light and therefore, we can not see it... it's like placing a candle in a piece of clay pottery... it only emitts a fraction of its capacity. If we place it in front of a mirror, or several mirrors, we can light up a huge space. We all work as mirrors of each others thoughts about ourselves. If we love ourselves, we will see that reflected in our experience. If we sheild ourselves from ourselves because we reject parts of ourselves, we see that dimness reflected in our experience. We sheild parts of ourselves from ourselves because we judge ourselves as unworthy in certain ways and therefore we sheild our own brilliance from ourselves and the world at large. By embracing ourselves completely, we see ourselves as complete and whole and we understand that we are one with everything and understand our own worth and place in the Universe.
just my $.02
--Kerri
Lighthouse, thanks for the input. You raise an interesting point because I've never thought much of myself (not poor self-image, just reality check). Maybe that's why others tend to return the favor. I agree with you about "Parachute".
If I'm hearing you right, you're saying that God (or the Force, or whatever) dwells in each of us. But that still seems just a subjective belief. There's no substantive proof, at least to me. In Muir Woods I felt perfectly at peace with myself. In fact, "myself" was totally irrelevant. There was just this euphoric sense of total bliss, a real endorphin overload! I can't describe it. That, to me, was almost a conection with --- something! [:(!] Was it because I was in a place of power? Was God in that place? Why can't I find that feeling with meditation or prayer or chants? My logical mind tells me it's because the "something" doesn't really exist. And if that's so, it doesn't really matter how I feel about myself -- there's really no one home. Are there any happy agnostics out there?
Sorry, don't mean to be a "downer", just not a good day today I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by greatoutdoors
In Muir Woods I felt perfectly at peace with myself. In fact, "myself" was totally irrelevant. There was just this euphoric sense of total bliss, a real endorphin overload!
I believe that state of mind was telling you exactly how it is. There is no "you" or "me" there is only "we" as being one with the Universe which is why I say that God is incomplete without all of us. It is my belief (and feel free to discard this if it does not agree with your beliefs) that we all collectively chose to experience this physical world in order to learn who we are. I don't know if you have ever had a crisis in your life, but I have had a couple. I found that by going through really hard times, the good times are magnified and are so much greater than they would be if I did not have the contrast of dispair. I feel that we draw certain experiences to ourselves in order to provide us with the context to understand that the opposite of our negative experience is TRUE REALITY. I believe also that this physical world is an illusion and the only true and real thing is Love and all the feelings associated with that one emotion. I believe that we are LOVE and God is love and that is the essence of our being. We choose to experience this illusion of physical separation in order to understand that we want the opposite of separation to be our reality.
For a long time, I have yearned to experience that Cosmic Unity or Euphoric state that you describe as my normal waking reality... very few have actually achieved this illumined state on a constant basis, we call them Masters. I also understand that I must go through lessons of dispair in order to truly know that it is Unity that I want and not separation. (are you getting this?)
quote:
Was God in that place? Why can't I find that feeling with meditation or prayer or chants? My logical mind tells me it's because the "something" doesn't really exist. And if that's so, it doesn't really matter how I feel about myself -- there's really no one home. Are there any happy agnostics out there?
God is in every place, in your heart, in that forest, in life itself. God is the intelligence that tells the trees to lose their leaves and shut down for winter and is the intelligence that tells the seed to grow into a tree. God is the force and intelligence that created the cosmos and everything in it. God is the intelligence that permeates your being and every being. God is in your best friend and in your enemy, God is in everywhere and everything and it is impossible to be apart from or separate from God.
It only matters what you think of yourself if you want to experience happiness. God wants us all to be happy because God wants to be happy and God wants to experience that Euphoric state that you momentarily experienced. God can only do this if All of God experiences God as God and as love. Without your truly loving yourself, God is incomplete and so am I and so is everyone else. Once we all recognize who we are, we will all experience that ecstatic state forever... as God. This is what we all want. It is called many names, experiencing God, Bliss, Love, Euphoria, heaven, they are all different ways of describing One and ALL which is who we are. I am you and you are me and there is no separation (which you have experienced.)
Once we (as a species)stop living in fear and hurting each other and start loving each other and living completely in love, we will then transcend our notion of separation and understand that bliss as our reality. (am I rambling?.. do you get me?)[?]
--Kerri
Lighthouse,
No, you're not rambling. What you're saying seems to fit in with what I felt. And I wholeheartedly agree with you about wanting that feeling 24/7! Thanks for your input -- you've given me something to think about for a bit before I do a more in-depth reply. [:)]
What's up with you christians? God threw you out of the garden for something you did not even do. He kicked you to the curb! What's with all the praying? Are you expecting to get back in or something? Yes you believe you go to heaven when you die but what is the point if you can't have any fun now? You may have fun for all eternity later but what's the point of heaven? I mean eternal happiness. Come on! that would be totaly boring any way. What's an afterlife without some chaos some truble? I run on defience and controversy. I could not live without it. But if i'm not living i'm dead. And you christians tell me i will suffer eternal pain and tourment. Who are you guys to tell people if they go to some fictional hell or not. And your god sais that we have a choice if we believe in him or not. Guess agian! he sais that if you refuse him it's hell for you. So yes i'm an atheist
Markperson,
An Atheist is one who does not believe in God. It looks to me like you are angry with God... this implies belief... am I reading you correctly?
--Kerri
greatoutdoors,
Where are you??? We want you back!!!
Kerri
Lighthouse, you have no idea how you brightened my day by your post and your email. It is very nice to feel that someone actually is not bored stiff by any comments from me! [:)] I haven't forgotten this topic, just have been "derailed" by other things. And I do have some tales to tell that may add to the discussion!
Markperson, I have to agree with Lighthouse in one area. What I am hearing from your post is anger. I don't know if that was your intent, or the reasons behind it. But two thoughts I would like to share. The first is, please don't jump to conclusions about "you christians". We are all unique and I dare say no two of us will ever hold exactly the same belief system. For myself, if I had to pick a label, I guess I'm sort of a Druid/Wiccan/Christian/Agnostic. How's that for for solid core beliefs! [:D] I can't embrace Atheism for the simple reason that hard science tends to disprove that concept. It's a fact that "something's out there." We just don't know what "it" is.
Second thing. Have you ever read this poem by Thomas Hardy?
If but some vengeful god would call to me
From up the sky, and laugh: "Thou suffering thing,
Know that thy sorrow is my ecstasy,
that thy love's loss is my hate's profiting!"
Then would I bear it, clench myself, and die,
Steeled by the sense of ire unmerited;
Half-eased in that a Powerfuller than I
Had willed and meted me the tears I shed.
But not so. How arrives it joy lies slain,
And why unblooms the best hope ever sown?
—Crass Casualty obstructs the sun and rain,
And dicing Time for gladness casts a moan. . .
These purblind Doomsters had as readily strown
Blisses about my pilgrimage as pain.
I discovered this poem in my early college years, and it is still my mantra. I worship nothing -- which is what separates me from most if not all modern religions. But even so, I keep my mind open and my "powder dry."
Thanks again for listening folks -- you've made my day!! [:)]
Thanks Greatoutdoors. That poem was profound.
D
I have gone through several religious and agnostic/atheistic phases in my life. I was raised catholic(just a nice boring ritual when you gow up in it actually) in Alaska and at 11 years of age I got interested in a pentecostal church around the corner as we were friends with the kids from the preacher's family. I learned to sing, read my bible, etc. but got disuillusioned after several years that I could not feel this sort of "happiness" all the time which i had initially felt and I made too many rules for myself of sin and saw too much hypocrisy, etc. I started going then to a catholic youth group and a catholic charismatic group which is sort of a cross between pentecostals and catholics which sort of fitted me. After I got into high school basically I became agnostic and learned science, humanism and modern skepticism as my religion. At about 21 I decided through a sort of revelation in one moment looking up at the empty summer sky that I was alone and that there was nothing else in the universe but myself. I then took the attitude that the god concept was simply a santa claus lie for adults invented by authorities to keep us happy(religion is the opium of the masses).This feeling of beautiful emptiness was hard to maintain, a very rarefied type of feeling(nirvana,etc.) so that I came back down to earth and had to deal with people and feelings again. So I doubted this sort of purist atheism which leaves no room for anything at all, just emptiness.
This experience however finally opened my heart to new ideas on reality generally speaking. At about 25 I moved to England for a year(my mother is English)and later to Germany. I experimented in England with various meditation courses and a bit of martial arts. The meditation had some short term mind altering effects which were convincing but I could not maintain the intensity of the first experience and dropped it.
At 30 I got my current job and had so much stress in the first months that I thought I would go crazy and decided to start again with some yoga and simple form of mantra meditation. This increased my inner peace and the yoga made me much more peaceful on the physical level. I read "Autobiogaraphy of a Yogi" a few years later on a return trip to Alaska and got all excited about what I had read. Miracles like in the Bible but that anyone could acheive through a specific training and a whole new cosmology was portrayed. I learned the breathing techniques to awaken the energy and after a couple of years had slowly awakened kundalini and could feel this throughout my body.
I had to stop with my energy raising practices after a couple of years as it was getting to be too much for me(headaches and such). 2 years ago I learned Tai Chi to round off my experiences with the body. Only last summer did I again get over the fact that I had had to stop doing my breathing and meditation work which I felt of as a sort of personal and moral failure to my kriya yoga group and teacher. I started learning all sorts of new things like Sufi meditation, Feng Shui, Indian and Chinese Astrology until I found something that would be able to get me out of my rut. I found this finally in Holosync meditation CDs in September which seemed to have a positive effect and have given me a real boost. In March I felt incredibly happy suddenly and could not say why(long term holosync effect likely) and then I started always remembering my dreams and discovered lucid dreaming sites and RBs site on internet. I have had several lucid dreams in the last several weeks and find an intensified stability and happiness throgh the increased stability of my energy body(NEW and Chakra stimulation during the night) in connection with the higher contact with my subconscious(dream analysis/lucidity in dreams).
To say I believe in God would be too simple and a lie. My conscious mind is just the tip of the iceberg and does not know much beyond the logic of what it sees and remains at heart a logical skeptical modern atheist/agnostic. The subconscious is more part of my emotional / energy body (I feel therefore I am). The experiences I gain with my energy body through my myriad spiritual practices(increased feelings of happiness and love for others and self control in all situations) are very, very real and my conscious mind accepts this as being true inasmuch as it can see/feel the results. Everyone wants to be happy. God as a distant theory was never any good to me, regardless of religion/ dogma. I just switch/add techniques when I do not feel a deepening spirituality through what I am currently into. The more happier I am closer I presume I am to this "god" whatever that may be.
Ramana Maharshi was asked by a muslim if god could take on form or was formless and he asked the muslim inreturn if he himself had form although in reality he was only a spirit, thereby answering his question. The argument about atheism / agnosticism is really one of asking is there more to it than the pure physical before our eyes. Einstein and quantum mechanics already answered this question from the scientific standpoint.
Rama Krisha questioned one of his new disciples if he believed in God with or without form, and he replied that he was atheist/agnostic being still undecided, which honest answer Ramakrishna admired. In Eastern religions the existence of physical deities can be accepted or rejected dependent on individual belief.Ramana Maharshi was obviously saying it could be both ways.
Ramakrishna is an interesting example. He achieved the samadhi state of pure nothingness for 6 months then had to come down and lived in an extremely intense world of feelings afterwards saying he lived between the pure nothingness of the highest samadhi and the normal world of feelings represnted by his brow chakra. His samadhi teacher did not believe in the personified god but only in the abstract reality and did not accept experiencing life through feelings but was taught otherwise by a miracle he observed of the goddess Kali who chose to appear to him to prove God could indeed take on form in the beauty of nature and feelings, the ever changing feminine shakti and not just the masculine Shiva form of abstract logic.
Western Christian dogma imposed by Constantine under his simplistic ideas which rejected gnostic thinking popular at the time in Coptic and other chrisitan churches(the development of the individual godlikeness similar to indian ideas) in favor of a literal interpretation of Jesus as God to be worshipped as intermediary in a ritualist manner helped cement the Roman empire under one religion and was very practical and Roman and had probably little to do with Chrisitanity as practiced in most cases back then. This historical break has caused the problems "we" as christians experience in our experience of God as being separate from ourselves somewhere abstract like santa claus or an old man on a throne. True religion is in us and god is different for everyone depending on their own very personal experience.
Galactic
Avalon,
Glad you liked it!
Galactic,
Wow! That's quite a history, and I appreciate your sharing. Two things I'm curious about. You say you move on to other studies when the current one no longer affects you strongly (I'm paraphrasing and may have the intent wrong [:I]). What I'm hoping to discover is a path I can follow "forever", be it meditation, or whatever. Are you saying that is not likely to happen? And you mentioned you had to give up energy raising because of physical problems. I already fight with headaches frequently. I was hoping to fix it, not make it worse! Can you elaborate a bit more on that?
Thanks!
Reading this thread I'm reminded of one of Richard Dawkins' sayings. I can't quote it word for word, but it's something like this. When it comes to Apollo, Zeus, Mars, Mithras, Horus, etc, etc, we are are all atheists. Some of us just go a bit further and include the Christian god in the list, that's all.
HH
Great Outdoors,
I remember someone asked here in the thread something similar to " why do people lose their faith sometimes and then regain it". I tried to answer that with my story and examples given as just being different phases of consciousness which are just as important and real and that personal development is the only way to see what we believe personally.
I think hanging on to one technique when it just stops working for you (at least after like months or a year of total spiritual stagnation) is a bad thing. "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"(emerson or thoreaus). I mean - you get in a rut. It becomes too linear and uncreative and boring. Once you try something else you see that actually the two techniques are similar but the other group just sees it from another angle. After awhile you mix lots of things like an artist or musician who develop their own style. I think we all do that. I read Autobiography of a Yogi and Yogananda had several influential Gurus before he settled down with Sri Yukteswar and agfterwards he did it also somewhat differently from his Guru. Every person has really individual needs and problems and we have to hope we stumble across the right "medicine "for our problem, like findng the right marriage partner, a very tricky business indeed.
Sure I got headaches. I had to stop the specific sort of Kundalini Pranayama prescribed in Kria Yoga having done over 100,00 times in a couple of years. My body got used to it but even a few weeks ago as I thought I could try it again for a few days it really screwed me up(pains in arms and whole left side). For example I had to reduce yoga asanas from 5-6 times a week down to 3 times a week as it stimulates energy body too much with my heavy back bends. So I started doing Tai Chi on my off days from Yoga (Tuesday, Thursday) as I thought I did not get enough exercise and Tai Chi is not so energy body intensive. On the weekends I do not do any energy body work or sport and even take naps to recover my energy body and my muscles. Since I could not do sitting meditation without developing too much energy in the run of the week I was disappointed generally about my development. However I thought it is easier to pick it up again soemetime later than to relearn the splits or complicated Tai chi moves. In other words it was a tradeoff decision on what sort of energy work I kept on doing as i had to give up something.
Doing The jholosync CDs seemed like the simple way of getting back into medtiation. I did that 2 weeks in a row every day and had to take a whole week off to recover my energy body from overload even though I did not necessarily do that in a strict meditation position. Being in Delta seems to really stimulate energy body. So I do that only twice a week now. their 12 year program could last 40 years for me at that rate but who cares I have to so something until I am 80 and it seems to work well enough.
I tried out RBs NEW and discoverd that my energy had been really centered in my trunk and always went straight up to my head and did not spread out over my whole energy body before this. Now it uses my whole body much more efficiently, dissipating or increasing towards my limbs instead of blocking in my trunk and head and burning up in my hips or back or shoulders. This is all very practical. If you have done any yoga you know that props are important to get where you want in extreme positions. Basically anything goes. I used to stick a towel under the refrigerator and slowly pull myself towards it with my legs split until I came down to the ground with my face completely to the ground(sideways splits). I mean if you get religion about a particular religion you are making a mistake. Basically it is all technique to get by our actual limitations of our body and to see reality( a spiritual Guru like Jesus or Babaji is of course always cool for inspiration).
I remember reading about the now dead physicist Richard Feynman who in high school just irreverently found out his own ways (which were much better than in the textbooks) to solve physcis problems and later simplified a lot of standard work in physics calculations, coming from a sort of engineering background. He saw that most of the students saw quantum physics and relativity in awe as a religion practically speaking and were afraid to touch it and put their own imprint on it. this hinders progress and understanding was his idea.
If we in a very real way are God(like part of some hologram) then we should not be afraid of making our own routine based on what works best for us individually. If you join a group and go every week to their medtitatation sessions and on your own read the ideas of completely different religious groups your friends at the meditation group will not necessarily be too open to your "alternative" techniques and philosophies. This seems to be the main hurdle. It is social. That is whay I probably just learn from internet and books anymore.
Can you really say that atheism is a religion, because i though that religion was belief and atheism is no belief. Its like black is the absense of colour it isnt one itself. Just a thought
An Atheist "believes" that there is no god. It is not the same as just not believing in a god. Do you follow what I mean?
I get what you mean. But i still think that they dont "believe", they have no "belief". But you do make a good point. I still think its just a way to catergorize religions. Im dyslexic so some word or phrases might be mispelt.
This thread is specifically created to discuss Agnosticism and Atheism.
By definition according to Websters:
Agnosticism: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
So, if there is anyone who would like to explore the ideas of these modes of thought, this is your thread!
I will check in and add anything that I can.
Peace,
Beth
I am an Agnostic. My standpoint on all issues is Atheist, as it's the most sensible one to take until you are otherwise convinced of any form of supernatural being's existence.
Despite this, I believe that Atheist dogma is illogical.
How can one disprove the existence of any god, when theoretically a 'god' is beyond the perception of man, and thus can hide from all means of detection, and thus, being proved real or fake?
Even if all religious dogma today is disproved, it doesn't mean that there isn't a god (or gods, or flying sea turtles) presiding over us in ways we cannot ever perceive. Theoretically, yes, they could be, and we'd never know because that is their nature.
Yet the Atheist standpoint must be taken, as until evidence is provided, for purposes of our thoughts and interactions, they do not exist.
But they might! :D
Edit: I had to add this. Christian arguments for having to believe in Christ and God before you can see or experience them seems like a load of hooey to me. They gave a similar argument on 'The Santa Clause' starring Tim Allen. That's great, but for the realm of fairy tales.
Real things you can see, even if you don't believe it can happen. People who saw airplanes for the first time probably couldn't believe their eyes!
The only ones who have to believe and not see things are the creators, they must visualize it, and thus bring it to life. Temporary belief is a hypothesis, made permanent by proof.
I disagree with cainam_nazier. I am atheist. It's not that I believe there is no god, although that is a true statement. I consider it a fact, not a belief.
I think there is enough scientific evidence that can explain most of the events in the bible and Torah. I'm not saying that the entire thing is just a work of fiction, rather it was a true story taken out of hand. Think about it, if you want people to remember something you will exaggerate it. Whoever initially wrote it all down decided to add in all kinds of embellishments to make it more interesting. So now we have people turning into salt, people putting animals on boats that should have mauled Noah to death, people parting bodies of water... it goes on.
And playing devils advocate (no pun intended) for a moment... If homosexual people are so wrong and are going against the bible and whatnot, then why did god create them? If god did exist, he'd just be a giant hypocrite. God is supposed to be responsible for creating everything in existence, therefore he is responsible for creating homosexual people... which according to the bible is wrong.
The point being that you "believe" the statement to be factual.
To put a spin on it. Truth, fact, and law in science stand heavily on your belief, or trust, in the information presented before you.
If you do not trust or believe in the information being supplied to you, no matter it's volume or multitude of sources then you can not believe some thing to be truth, fact, or law. And what ever it is will most likely remain that way until you have a personal, be it spiritual or physical, experience with it.
While you may be able to disprove the bible's logic pertaining to God, it is impossible to disprove the existence of a type of god, period. That's why you can't claim there are, for a fact, no gods, for it will never be a fact. It can be a likelihood, which is why agnostics generally live with atheist standpoints, but not beliefs.
It's a little thing to be argued about.
The above post highlights a problem which I find is all to common with people in the US. They prove or disprove 'god' using bible sources.
Remember there are many other conceptions of 'god' than the biblical one.. the problem is that most people in the US are not exposed to any other belief system; this can be seen by the common question 'do you believe in the bible?', a negative answer usually followed by an accusation of atheism, implying that belief in 'god' and the bible have to be one and the same... actually they are not.
There are many other conceptions of god out there than just the middle-eastern varient (that is, judaism, christianity & islam).
What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, neo-paganism, confucianism etc. and these are only the mainstream varients.
Just because you dont accept the christian bible does not mean you dont believe in 'god', whatever you conceive that word to mean; never mind what your local preacher has to say. You have to open your eyes, there's a big world out there outside of the local church down the road.
Douglas
Tyciol is from Canada, eh. Not the US.
But any how.
You make a very good point, which is why that if I was forced to pick a religion I would go for poly-theism. More options = better chance of getting it right.
But I digress.
More often than not I will not ask a person if they believe in God but rather if they believe in a god. Unless of course I already know what religion they are or claim to be. Then I will ask them questions specific to their god or gods.
This developed mostly because I know far too many pagans....mostly wiccans. You have no idea how many of them I run across. There is an insane wiccan population in Arizona.
Tyciol is from Canada, eh. Not the US.
True, but then my post was not directed at him, but as a general comment about the US religious situation (generelly speaking).
I think this is a justifed point as i find this situation in no other country to the same extent.... the tedious regularity of the question 'do you believe in the bible' pops up there more often than anywhere else.
cainam_nazier you bring up some good points and i would agree with you about asking people if they believe in 'a' god rather than just 'god' as that is a rather loaded question, unless of course you are already pretty clear as to their basic beliefs.
Doug
You have no idea how many of them I run across. There is an insane wiccan population in Arizona.
Glad to hear it! :D
Just my 2cents incoming-
I was raised Christian. I was raised in a denomination that chose that all miraculous events had ceased and we were to live on faith alone(not true of all denominations). Later, I was introduced to the Pentecostal denomination. They believe and even expect the miraculous to occur daily. From healings and Shikina(sp?) to speaking and understanding unknown languages. When I approached my parents about these things, my mother said," I used to pray in tongues all the time, and your father has a true gift for prophecy!". I was completely floored.
At this point we began to discuss all manner of things, but most importantly world religions. My mothers explanation was one that has stuck in the back of my head since then, and I am now finding it easier to admit to myself.
There is a higher power, and that power may be found in all the religions of the world. If that power has a consciousness separate from humanity, then it would need to present it's prophets in different ways to different cultures. If it is a common consciousness which we all stem from, different prophets may have reached "enlightenment" through different ways.
I think this falls right in line with the current discussion. Many paths lead to a deep sense of spirituality. Remaining open is the key. Some "religions" may offer something you need today, and some may offer something you need tomorrow.
Another important aspect IMO is that almost all major religions and many minor ones have such similar belief structures. Whether they call energy Chakra or Holy Spirit or Chi, they are all most likely the same thing. Whether you call it Visions or Projecting, or you see guardian angels or guides. The metaphysical correlations all seem to be very similar, although achieved by different paths, and with the intent being somewhat different.
I now believe very strongly in the notion of Earth School. Something higher that my physical self has placed my consciousness here for the purpose of learning and experiencing something. As I go through the day, I am on look out for lessons. I am looking for experiences that I may need to grow further. But ultimately, I am connected to the higher power, and that gives me great strength and alot of control over my life.
Mister Anjilek, I like your mother's comments, especially as relates to "if" the higher power has a consciousness. That strikes a responsive cord! :)
StaticExperiment, how can you say "it is a fact" that there is no god? How do you prove the absence of anything? I think you phrased it better when you left it as your belief.
Gandalf, if you were Christian, or Jewish and were discussing your beliefs, wouldn't it be logical to use the foundation book of your faith as a source? What else would they use? And why do you seem to view that use almost as a condemnation?
Just some thoughts, hopefully more later. :wink:
Gandalf, if you were Christian, or Jewish and were discussing your beliefs, wouldn't it be logical to use the foundation book of your faith as a source?
Yes but I'd also expect people to be at least *aware* of other conceptions of 'god' as well as the one you are brought up in... otherwise this results in ignorance and narrow-mindedness, an all too comon feature of todays world; a good wide ranging conception of world beliefs should be a basic part of all peoples education, whether I am 'christian or jewish' *or for that matter* Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Taoist and so on.. ever heard of them?
You may be suprised but there IS a hell of a lot of people out there who are completely ignorant of any other religion outside of their local church down the road.
Douglas
QuoteTrue, but then my post was not directed at him, but as a general comment about the US religious situation (generally speaking).
My bad. But to continue.
I do find it kinda funny that in a land based heavily on the idea of religious freedom that there is in fact one particular idea of religion that is forced upon us at a very early age. Anybody who says that is not is already a member of the God umbrella. This starts with the pledge of allegiance. "One nation, under God.." Being outside the US probably makes this easier to see.
And I totally just forgot where else I was going to go with this...Okay, Moving on.
QuoteAnother important aspect IMO is that almost all major religions and many minor ones have such similar belief structures. Whether they call energy Chakra or Holy Spirit or Chi, they are all most likely the same thing. Whether you call it Visions or Projecting, or you see guardian angels or guides. The metaphysical correlations all seem to be very similar, although achieved by different paths, and with the intent being somewhat different.
This is some thing else that I don't really understand with people. It seems that many believe not so much in their experience but rather the labels that they bring to it. So unfortunately we will forever hear the arguments about god/not god, angels/guides, and which "energy" is best to use when in all likelihood there is no difference between them except the labels we put on them. Just ask your local DBZ fanatic.
QuoteYou have no idea how many of them I run across. There is an insane wiccan population in Arizona.
Glad to hear it!
Honestly it's a little deeper than that for me. Get a group of 100 people together I could probably separate out the wiccans. I can almost feel when one enters the room, they don't even have to say anything.
How exactly does my post highlight any problems Gandalf?
I say you can't disprove God.
You similarly can't prove him.
Care to correct me? If you do on either count, then Agnosticism has failed. Agnosticism applies not just to God, but to anything supernatural, or any undiscovered concepts and theories.
Tyciol_
Chill out, I was just taking issue with your basic use of the word 'god' as in 'do you believe in god?' as this is a slightly more loaded question than at first apears as there are many perceptions of divinity and 'god' or 'gods'.
Actually, I'm not taking issue as such, just pointing out that there are far more varients of what divinity is than just the familiar notion of the west; in questioning your common assumptions of 'god' it may be useful to go out and look at other conceptions as you may find something out there more to your liking.. the problem is that a lot of people (in the west) are completely unaware of these ideas.
Douglas
Quote from: cainam_nazier
I do find it kinda funny that in a land based heavily on the idea of religious freedom that there is in fact one particular idea of religion that is forced upon us at a very early age. Anybody who says that is not is already a member of the God umbrella. This starts with the pledge of allegiance. "One nation, under God.." Being outside the US probably makes this easier to see.
While I agree with the idea that America is heavily Christian biased, although I disagree with the "under God" argument. God is an English word, in an English speaking country, that encompasses a whole lot of meanings. Some refer to their higher self as God, some a supreme being. There are so many interpretations that it is largely a blanket statement.
The only person it should offend is the true, hardcore atheist. The person that believes there is no metaphysical/spiritual realm and thinks we are born, work then die.
I, for one, am thankful that the word God appears in so many of our governments workings. It at least opens the door for discussion, and may instill an interest in our children to seek beyond the physical realm.
No, as for the negative, one religion does dominate the scene in America. Many people are ignorant about other religions and create negative stereotypes as a result. Most Christian churches don't want to emphasize the positive of other religions. They only want their congregation to be able to refute other religions, and hopefully convert others to Christianity. I often make my close friend, and Christian minister laugh when I tell him," Buddhists are the best Christians". It is the fault of the institution and not of the teachings that the church is this way.
But make no mistake, we have religious freedom. We may choose any path we want. We are free to practice as we see fit. If we choose to not fall into the habits of a Lemming, we are free to discover all that there is. We don't have to worry about being thrown in jail or worse for simply attempting to explore other religions.
I for one believe in the Life School way of thinking. Maybe all these peoples higher selves chose to reincarnate as Christians to experience that way of life for one reason or another. Maybe the religion has some insight that they need to learn.
The Life School method also helps me to see no one person/thing/action as negative, and has really helped me relieve stress, and learn to relax and meditate. Everything that happens might very well be some part of a life lesson, and if we look hard, maybe we can find it. And if we find it, it might resolve the issue for us personally as to whether there is or isn't a higher being.
Gandalf, you raise a good point about awareness. Agreed, there are many folks in the world who have limited knowledge of ideas beyond their own birth faith. I expect very little from people as a whole, and I am rarely disappointed. :) My family has two couples who have recently "found the faith" (doesn't matter what faith). Other members of the family just can't stand 'em. I don't understand the animosity. What does it hurt to listen to someone talk? You don't have to take it as your own dogma.
As to your thought about ignorance -- oh yes, no argument! But that's not limited to any specific religion. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's also really, really common! :wink:
Cainam_Nazier, so what is it about wiccans you notice? And where would you put me, if you had guess? :lol:
I agree that America (so far) is predominantly Christian, but I disagree that it is forced on anyone. No one has told me I "must" be a Christian, nor have I been refused employment or housing or (take your pick) because of religion, or lack of same. I'm coming from a U.S. perspective, but logic tells me the same situation would apply in England. Both countries are predominantly Christian. So, so what? I do not take offense at the beliefs of any other being -- we are all following our path, as we perceive it to be. Mister Anjilek, I think I am basically recapping what you already said.
I just wish with all my being that we could lose the anger! Hatred is perhaps the most useless, destructive emotion on this earh of ours! Harm none, in thought, word or deed! (That's not necessarily wiccan, just my goal!) Mind you, I still have my own anger issues to deal with -- I am definitely in the "glass house" mode! :)
Tyciol, you have nailed agnosticism! It is not a denial of anything, just an open mind -- in this person's never-to-be-humble opinion. Atheism, on the other hand, is as much a religion as any other, and has produced just as many zealots.
Atheism is a great standpoint, but since it doesn't employ any supernatural resources, it's incapable of disproving ANY god-figure that claims to be beyond science. *listens to E Nomine*
This is from an article on MSN. Just to give you the skinny.
The whole thing can be found here.
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499
QuoteThe efforts to bring God into the state reached their peak during the so-called "religious revival" of the 1950s. It was a time when Norman Vincent Peale grafted religion onto the era's feel-good consumerism in his best-selling The Power of Positive Thinking; when Billy Graham rose to fame as a Red-baiter who warned that Americans would perish in a nuclear holocaust unless they embraced Jesus Christ; when Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists.
Hand in hand with the Red Scare, to which it was inextricably linked, the new religiosity overran Washington. Politicians outbid one another to prove their piety. President Eisenhower inaugurated that Washington staple: the prayer breakfast. Congress created a prayer room in the Capitol. In 1955, with Ike's support, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ."
The campaign to add "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was part of this movement. It's unclear precisely where the idea originated, but one driving force was the Catholic fraternal society the Knights of Columbus. In the early '50s the Knights themselves adopted the God-infused pledge for use in their own meetings, and members bombarded Congress with calls for the United States to do the same. Other fraternal, religious, and veterans clubs backed the idea. In April 1953, Rep. Louis Rabaut, D-Mich., formally proposed the alteration of the pledge in a bill he introduced to Congress.
Now any American who says that the "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance is not referring to the Christian god does not know the history of their own country.
With that being said I hold fast to my previous statement.
Greatoutdoors.
QuoteCainam_Nazier, so what is it about wiccans you notice? And where would you put me, if you had guess?
Speech, looks, dress, and I don't even have to talk to them able religion.
QuoteI just wish with all my being that we could lose the anger! Hatred is perhaps the most useless, destructive emotion on this earh of ours! Harm none, in thought, word or deed! (That's not necessarily wiccan, just my goal!)
Ahh, you're wiccan.
Just a guess. But I usually have to be in the same room as the person.
Meh, you only think it's Wiccan because they always say 'Harm none', and heck, didn't Crowley come up with that? That religion is so manufactured...
So, what are you anyway?
I am not anything. I practice no religion at all.
I was baptized Roman Catholic by my parents but I haven't been to church since I was 16. And before that it was only for midnight mass because of my mother.
But that faith never made any sense to me at all and I never really believed in it. So now I walk my own path.
Truth to tell, I have no idea where the phrase "harm none" originates. I like the connotation. In many religions the core teaching appears to be kindness. That's the principle I take from whichever religion offers it. The trouble with 90% of organized religions is they take that core and bury it deep inside other "me vs them" dogma. That dogma frequently requires blood sacrifice to "work", either animal or human. I cannot accept a religion built on blood! My sympathies lie in the direction of the druids, but the question is still open as to whether they practiced animal sacrifice or not.
Cainam_nazier, it sounds as though we have a similar philosophy. I worship no diety, and follow no "official" path. The wiccan "god" and "godess" are just as much a human creation as those of the greeks and romans and israelites and mayans and ... you get the idea. But having said that, I do believe there is "something" out there. I've used this phrase before: "the energy we swim in." In my rituals I call on the elements and the spirits of creation (again, my own rationalization of something I do not understand).
It occurs to me I may be sailing under false colors and need to clarify a bit. While my focus is on kindness, and I qualify as a "tree-hugger", I am not a vegetarian -- yet. I don't know if my logic is valid, but just feel that whoever or whatever put our "ground rules" into effect perhaps didn't intend that we circumvent them by our dietary habits alone.
When you think about it, every single thing must kill or destroy in order to survive. Those were the cards we were dealt. If there is no "creator," and no "reason for existence," then I suppose it really doesn't matter how we go about that killing or destruction. But what if there is an intelligent design at work? And what if the purpose is not to see how we handle the physical situation, but how we rise above it? In that spirit, I treat animals humanely and the environment gently -- with a hard and fast rule that nothing will die just for decoration. If I need leather for shoes, that's one thing -- if I think coyote fur looks really lovely, that's a whole 'nother thing! (It is lovely, by the way -- on the coyote).
The one reason I may one day go vegetarian is the potential it has for clearing the mind for meditation. I am working that logic-chain through at present, as I'm not convinced that's a real phenomena. I have found no difference so far.
If there is nothing beyond death, then I have made myself happier by trying to do the right thing (as I can figure out what that is). And if there is something or someone out there who will be giving me a final exam, well, so be it and I suppose I'll just have to find out then whether I was right or wrong.
I don't know why I felt I needed to mention this point, but just didn't want to give a wrong impression.
A side note on vegetarians.
I always found the logic of not killing anything, even for food, kinda funny. If your vegetarian because you just don't like meat that's fine with me. But what really bothers me are the "spiritualists" who tell you they don't eat me because it's killing and killing is wrong. These tend to be the same people who then turn around and tell you that every thing on the planet is alive and there for should not be harmed, to include plants and such. So with their logic it is not okay to kill but it is okay to continually maime a plant. Basically stealing its potential offspring consuming them for your own needs. Whats the difference is what I ask.
And on a very special note I would like to announce that I have had a hand in converting to date, 3 strict vegetarians into carnivores. Yeah! :twisted:
2 were raised vegetarians and one apparently never had previously had a properly prepared steak.
Except of course for the guys who 'eat' sunlight cainem. You have to respect them guys :)
I'm against 'harm none'. A lot of people tinkle me off, I want to harm the hell out of them.
Tyciol, I've heard about the "air-eaters". :lol: So funny how they stoutly maintain they don't need to eat, but generally can be found "snacking" pretty regularly -- just for the fun of it, of course! :wink:
Oh, believe me, my "harm none" philosophy is a work in progress. My temper, and my blood pressure, regularly get a lot higher than I prefer. :) But think about it. When we get angry, who are we hurting? Certainly not the jerk who ticked us off! If they know they've gotten next to us, it makes them happy! :x :oops: If they don't know, it doesn't bother them. So where's the gain to anger? What has your experience been?
I try to become less angered, but when anger comes, it comes, and suppressing it only harms you.
If you kick his butt, he won't do it again.