I invite all athiests to keep an open mind about their existence and not be so sure that this is the only life in this world. Our existence came out of nowhere and science is having a hard time understanding how everything fell into place including fission in the sun that allows for molocules to tunnel through emptyness and communicate. There's signs in the universe and don't be surprised if you come to existence after your death. OK. alright then.
God is surely real! I mean, the complexity of our existence is phenomenal. Our heat beats 7,000 times per minute pumping rounds of blood in seconds, that testifies to his existense. The Earth is in ane xact location that if we were to move a milimeter from its orbital point we would freeze or burn, that is testifyign to God almighty. The mountains are palces in exact co ordenance with eachother so that they hold the earth together, that testifies to God almighty. Our basic nessesities such as water,earth,food are all contained on this planet. The cycle of life is in perfect balance with eachother. Everything created on this earth is perfect according to a divine law, a divine code. Everything in the heavens and earth and everything between them testify to God almighty. How can an accident? Or even a random series of chaos be able to produce such a perfect universe? ONLY if this "Accident" or series of events was perfect in every aspect of its existence. The one who created us is the ever perfect, the merciful, the masterful, the mighty, the great..... God.
Although I am not a Atheist, Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, or lack of belief. All I ask of Atheists who are a member of this board (Which I'm sure is not many) To keep their minds open to new things. I don't think anyone here should be trying to convert anyone into believing in a God or Supreme Being, Allow others to believe what they want. We all have a purpose and we can all learn something from eachother. So Regardless weither you believe in a God or not, Keep an open mind to all things.
bewarevileye:
Although i agree with your post its also important for you to understand that athiests may infact be right in their views. Whether they're right or not I agree that at this point in time its much better to be open-minded as there simply isn't the evidence to prove it either way.
Jeehad, although im agnostic im gonna take a more athiest role with this response as its easier to show flaws in your thinking :P.
Jeehad:
QuoteOur heat beats 7,000 times per minute pumping rounds of blood in seconds, that testifies to his existense.
When resting your heart will beat about 70 - 100 times per minute.. not 7000.. Your blood will circulate about 3 times per minute, apparently.
QuoteThe Earth is in ane xact location that if we were to move a milimeter from its orbital point we would freeze or burn, that is testifyign to God almighty.
I highly doubt this to be true, and id like to see evidence. If it is true what you have to remember is if it was that millimeter out, as billions of planets probably are, life wouldnt have evolved. Its only because this planet is perfect that life evolved.. What im trying to say is in all the hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy alone, the probability that one of them was going to be well placed for life was likely quite high (thats not counting the hundreds of billions of other galaxies), Id actually be suprised if not one planet in the universe was capable of sustaining life wouldnt you?
QuoteThe mountains are palces in exact co ordenance with eachother so that they hold the earth together, that testifies to God almighty.
I think gravity has a larger part to play in holding the earth together
QuoteOur basic nessesities such as water,earth,food are all contained on this planet. The cycle of life is in perfect balance with eachother.
Yet again ill say that if the basic nessesities wern't available life wouldnt exist.. of course the nessesities are going to be here, otherwise we wouldnt be. The dinosaurs are a proof of what would happen if the nessesities were missing thus disrupting the balance of life (and of course its happened in the past.. to earth).
The flaw in your thinking is that life HAD to live on earth and so it was up to earth to be perfect or no life would exist. From another perspective life evolved on earth "BECAUSE" of the right conditions, it could have/might have evolved on many other planets around the universe too.
QuoteHow can an accident? Or even a random series of chaos be able to produce such a perfect universe? ONLY if this "Accident" or series of events was perfect in every aspect of its existence. The one who created us is the ever perfect, the merciful, the masterful, the mighty, the great..... God.
This is the whole point here.. but just because you cant understand "How an accident, Or even a random series of chaos is able to produce such a perfect universe" doesnt mean that suddenly a god has to be involved. At the current time the data simply isnt available to answer such a complex question. Humans probably arn't even close to intelligent enough to solve this problem yet. I respect your beliefs but just as bewarevileye pointed out, that athiests should try to be open minded about things, so should people who believe in god such as yourself. Its when you realise you cant possibly know for sure, that you start to respect other peoples beliefs and can share your views without preaching. Its not about you 'stopping' your belief in god, its about realising that even though your damn sure, you may not in fact be right :-D.
rooj the heart beats approximately 7000 times per hour, the earth is actually at a perfect distance from the sun. a Distance such that life may exist. According to our theorietical views life cannot exist withotut he basic nessesities such as oxygen and water. We know this fact because nothing on this earth has proven to coexist without the basic nessesities. On the basis of mountains. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who lived between 570 and 632 A.C. is quoted to have said that "When Allah created the Earth, it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it by the mountains."
http://www.amse.net/The%20Geological%20Concept/Summary%20and%20Conclusion.htm
Read that article about the seismic impacts of mountains on the structure of the earth :P
Could there be other planets? Who knows! Only God does, What I am trying to proejct to you is how perfect our unvierse is. Perfection doesnt happen due to an accident or some sort of evolutional cycle. Perfection is made by a perfect being I.E God almighty! I am sure of God existence lol I don't see why that is wrong? I have faith for sure but logic plays a good portion of my beliefs. I don't think it is logical that we came into exsitence by some explosion which eventually SOMEHOW created bacterium which evolved into compelx species. I mean nowhere in scientifical records do we see speciies mtuate into compelx forms. I believe in genetic mutation but to the extent of what darwinists claim is absolutely absurd.
How were we created then?
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)
"Verily we created the heavens and earth and we have caused the expansion of it"
This is what the God revelead to humanity 1400 years ago on the creation of the unvierse. there are many verses saying that the universe started out as nothingness, then he made it a cloud of smoke which expanded into life itself. You must admitt this is pretty significant? How a man living in Arab 1400 years ago could have said such things....
Here is a nice article I want to show you!
Religion and the Scientist
...seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different world...
And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds.......After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued........
Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought.
Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, please answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning?
Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine.
Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product.
Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable.
Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence?
Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on.
Yunus: Is this what you believe?
Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory.
Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago.
Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory.
Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam.
Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed.
Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this.
Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess.
Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ?
Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape.
Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat.
Bob: Go on.
Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago ?
Bob: I'm not convinced.
Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from?
Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light.
Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own.
Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork.
Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well.
Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha!
Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school.
Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis.
Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet?
Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live.
Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy.
Bob: I'm listening.
Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21, "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........"
Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580.
Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets".
Bob: ............................... Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________.
Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect.
Bob: What do you mean?!
Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa.
The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding".
Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth.
Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes".
Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off.
The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ?
Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres.
Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........"
Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation.
Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed.
Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all.
Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the Oceans....
Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %.
Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from
water.
Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water.
Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents.
Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa.
Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart.
Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ?
Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate.....
Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick.
Bob: Tell me more.
Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, "(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......."
Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....".
Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place.
Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them.
Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies.
Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue.
Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it."
Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings?
Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan?
Bob: Please go on. This is interesting.
Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world.
Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description.
Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy.
These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God."
Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media?
Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India, New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences."
Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue....
Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......".
Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics.
Bob: What do you mean?
Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited.
Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean?
Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two.
Bob: Can you give me an example ?
Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health.
Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination.
Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam.
Bob: What do you mean ?
Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact.
Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ.
Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing.
Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine.
Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon.......
Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases.
Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork.
Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ?
Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown.
Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty".
Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down.........
Quoterooj the heart beats approximately 7000 times per hour
Ahh you mistyped your first post and said minutes.
Quotethe earth is actually at a perfect distance from the sun. a Distance such that life may exist. According to our theorietical views life cannot exist withotut he basic nessesities such as oxygen and water. We know this fact because nothing on this earth has proven to coexist without the basic nessesities.
As i already stated, even if the earth is perfect within a millemeter (which i HIGHLY doubt) it doesnt change the fact that the chances of one of the likely trillions of planets in the universe being that perfect is reasonable, id image lots of them are in a good position to form life, why would you necessarily have to bring a god into this. I already addressed the nessesities of life, which i also found doesnt require a god.
QuoteOn the basis of mountains. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who lived between 570 and 632 A.C. is quoted to have said that "When Allah created the Earth, it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it by the mountains."
http://www.amse.net/The%20Geological%20Concept/Summary%20and%20Conclusion.htm
Read that article about the seismic impacts of mountains on the structure of the earth
I had a feeling that article would be based on the religion..
it took me about 2 minutes to find this site:
http://answering-islam.org/Campbell/s4c2a.html
let me quote a bit:
Quote
From these pictures it is clear that Muhammad's followers understood that the Mountains were thrown down
(a) like tent pegs to keep a tent in place.
(b) like an anchor to hold a ship in place.
(c) to stop the earth from moving. i.e. limit earthquakes,
But, in fact, this is false. Earthquakes are common events associated with the forming of mountains.
Since these verses present a definite problem, after quoting several of the above verses about mountains Dr. Bucaille says,
"Modern geologists describe the folds in the Earth as giving foundations to the mountains, and their dimensions go roughly one mile to roughly 10 miles. The stability of the Earth's crust results from the phenomenon of these folds."
But is this true? Commenting on Dr. Bucaille's statement, Professor of Geology, Dr. David A. Young says,
"While it is true that many mountain ranges are composed of folded rocks (and the folds may be of large scale) it is not true that the folds render the crust stable. The very existence of the folds is evidence of instability in the crust."[1]
In other words, Mountains don't keep the earth from shaking. Their formation caused and still causes the surface of the earth to shake.
:P
My point is not to disprove your point, its to highlight the fact that information is biased depending on where you read it.
QuoteWhat I am trying to proejct to you is how perfect our unvierse is. Perfection doesnt happen due to an accident or some sort of evolutional cycle. Perfection is made by a perfect being I.E God almighty!
K, firstly there's no such thing as perfection, perfection is a concept, and its different for everyone, we know very little about the universe so labelling it as perfect is, i hope you agree, a bit extreme. I also answered this point about earth being well suited for life in order to show you another perspective, ill quote it incase you missed:
QuoteThe flaw in your thinking is that life HAD to live on earth and so it was up to earth to be perfect or no life would exist. From another perspective life evolved on earth "BECAUSE" of the right conditions, it could have/might have evolved on many other planets around the universe too.
Im not asking you to believe this perspective, just to be aware that its a possibility and could potentially be true. You dont seem to recognize my points as potentially valid, you just back yours up. So i ask you, is there a possibility that this point may be true?
QuoteI am sure of God existence lol I don't see why that is wrong? I have faith for sure but logic plays a good portion of my beliefs.
Theres nothing wrong with faith, its great that you have something to believe in, just true logic should also tell you that other possibilities exist no matter how strongly you believe.
QuoteI don't think it is logical that we came into exsitence by some explosion which eventually SOMEHOW created bacterium which evolved into compelx species. I mean nowhere in scientifical records do we see speciies mtuate into compelx forms. I believe in genetic mutation but to the extent of what darwinists claim is absolutely absurd.
Yet its completely logical to presume that some entity thats been around forever one day decided to create everything we now know out of smoke?. I stress again im agnostic, i dont doubt this as a possibility, but the fact that you see it as obvious worries me, how can you possibly believe that its obvious? you base all your beliefs in life on one book dated 1400 years? You can talk about how we are yet to prove mutation into complex lifeforms, but that doesnt in anyway prove that god exists, it just proves science has holes its yet to fill in. Whether they be that a god created earth and its creatures, or that some kind of evolution did.
QuoteThis is what the God revelead to humanity 1400 years ago on the creation of the unvierse. there are many verses saying that the universe started out as nothingness, then he made it a cloud of smoke which expanded into life itself. You must admitt this is pretty significant? How a man living in Arab 1400 years ago could have said such things....
1400 years ago isn't along time, humans were just as intelligent then as they are now, minus the technology obviously. Why couldnt someone imagine this as a possibility? And it isnt exactly detailed in its explanation to be perfectly honest :P.
Anyways, I can see where this is headed, so i want to say the following:
Please realise you dont have to, and cant prove anything to me. Dont feel you need to justify your beliefs to me, im not testing you or your religion, im simply pointing out that as a human on this earth theres no way that anyone can prove this either way, and therefore you MIGHT be wrong. This isn't something you can fight against, im not taking a side, im smack in the middle as an agnostic. If god exists its only god that can TRULY know the truth, you believe what you have read and heard strongly, but your NOT a god, and so cant truly know beyond all doubt. This is why when you discuss your religion without flexibility, when you believe without any form of openmindedness, you just appear arrogant to others.
As far as the story goes: I didnt read all of it, no offence but i dont have as deep a knowledge of the quraan as you and therefore cant verify that the quotes are accurate. Also from what little ive read the site http://answering-islam.org.uk seems to prove at least some of the quotes wrong, parts of the quraan that for instance say the earth was spread out flat.
Im wondering why you find it so hard to believe in a god but to also realise your not all-knowing and therefore might be wrong in your assumptions. And I know i seem negative on your views and opinions, but I assure you id have the same stance talking with a die-hard christian, or a die-hard athiest etc.
What would be really cool, is if people could make a point without typing, quoting, pasting, or commenting long arse posts. It's a dead giveaway that you are only out to make others "believe" your opinion...
This is cute..
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/filibuster.htm
This too...
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/deacon.htm
Man.. I can't make up my mind.. this too...
http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm
:-D There are soooo many!
I was under the impression that the quote button was there to make it easier and less confusing when addressing a post. Especially a post with many points... If id been made aware that certain mods didnt like it i would have avoided its use :P.
Sorry ive just realised im kinda hijacking this thread, Id imagine by the title its meant more to persuade athiests to be open-minded and not as much to persuade religious people to be more open-minded?
Personally I don't like 'Jeehad', I think he should be removed from the forum,
but thats just my opinion.
Quote from: RooJ on April 06, 2007, 22:44:17
I was under the impression that the quote button was there to make it easier and less confusing when addressing a post. Especially a post with many points... If id been made aware that certain mods didnt like it i would have avoided its use :P.
Sorry ive just realised im kinda hijacking this thread, Id imagine by the title its meant more to persuade athiests to be open-minded and not as much to persuade religious people to be more open-minded?
Certain mods?? What's that suppose to mean? :-P I wasn't necessarily speaking of you though. :)
Rooj,
I appreciate your responses to Jeehad. It's easy to get lost in all of the volumes of material that he posts to try to prove his point. You did a good job of sorting through it. But I think you are wasting your time on him. I learned a long time ago that there is no dialog with him. It's all monologue. He is a fanatic. He convinces us only of his blindness to anything beyond his own little world.
I liked the bit about the Earth being exactly the right distance from the Sun... to the milimeter even. Wow!
Well then, if Muhammad was absolutely correct about this we'd all be dead now, because the Earth's natural variation in it's distance from the Sun - the difference between its aphelion (max) distance and perihelion (min) distance is about 3.1 million miles
Also, the habitable zone around the Sun is from just over 88.3 million miles to just under 127.35 million miles. Since we're currently pretty stable at an average of 93 million miles, I think we can afford to move around a bit before it becomes a problem.
James Muhammad was not the one who even spokea bout the distance of the earth from the sun, im trying to focus ons ceitnific theology from scientists ratehr then religious text:P If the earth was to change its discoursed loaction or path by a small amount(obviously a mm is exagerated) then it is inevitable that life would not be supported.
I read somewhere a while ago that nothing is infact something, God is possible to exist out of nowhere, I find it hard to comprehend that he existed for infinities past. Unless we don't have the faculties to understand how it is possible for him to just exist without a beginning. It is possible that there is a way to understand how it is possible for him to exist but we won't know until we gain full consciousness and awareness Robert Monroe said "His earth life and people were like half alive compared to his journeys and his new gained awareness". I think God became aware out of no where, because in my religion Islam it doesn't say anything of him existing for an infinity it just says "he is the first" "he was neither begotten nor does he begett."
Something about Robert Monroe in his book the ultimate journey still amazes me up to this day. In his book he mentions in an out of body experience that he suddenly became motionless and he couldn't move and heard a voice saying "I am your lord, do you fear me?" Robert then tries to imagine himself escaping this. The thing that amazes me about this encounter that Monroe had is that in the Quran God mentions himself as something to be feared. If you read it there is a lot of "those who fear Allah. "Fear me" in it. In the Quran God talks about himself in the third person and often says "We" or "Us" which makes me curious.
I did the following search on the word fear here http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html
Fearing doesn't have to mean being scared of him but may mean worshipping.
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger: So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe."
010.006
YUSUFALI: Verily, in the alternation of the night and the day, and in all that Allah hath created, in the heavens and the earth, are signs for those who fear Him.
I forgot to mention in Monroe's encounter with that being Monroe mentioned being submerged in water. In the Quran, it says that Allah's throne is over the waters.
QuoteI read somewhere a while ago that nothing is infact something, God is possible to exist out of nowhere, I find it hard to comprehend that he existed for infinities past. Unless we don't have the faculties to understand how it is possible for him to just exist without a beginning.
Its very hard to comprehend, as humans we are born into what seems to be a straight forward linear world of time and cause and effect. Although the brain allows us to imagine things beyond this its usually attributed to fiction. Its important to realise that if a god exists, that can create anything, thats infinite in its control, then the current rules of logic and all the rules of the universe go out the window.. A god that created this universe with its rules, doesnt necessarily live by them. It may even be that beginning and end dont exist, that time doesnt exist, in the realms of gods.
Its this very inability to comprehend such complex thoughts, and the lack of understanding in general within humans that i think supports the need for being open-minded. For how can we close ourselves off to other possibilities if the very thing we supposedly believe in we're not even close to fully understanding or explaining.
Thank you for clarifying Jeehad.
I actually do believe the Earth is where it is by design. The Universe is too intelligent for things to happen by coincidence.
Bewarevileye,
It doesn't matter how many times I see religious justification or interpretation of the word "fear" there is one basic fact that remains:
Fear is the opposite of love.
If God whatever God is chosen by a religion, ever speaks, even just once, about "fearing Him" then that is not a God worthy of following or believing in, because no matter how anyone may try to dress it up, you cannot ever love something or someone you fear - these two core emotions are polar opposites.
Quote from: James S on April 08, 2007, 04:14:32
Thank you for clarifying Jeehad.
I actually do believe the Earth is where it is by design. The Universe is too intelligent for things to happen by coincidence.
Bewarevileye,
It doesn't matter how many times I see religious justification or interpretation of the word "fear" there is one basic fact that remains:
Fear is the opposite of love.
If God whatever God is chosen by a religion, ever speaks, even just once, about "fearing Him" then that is not a God worthy of following or believing in, because no matter how anyone may try to dress it up, you cannot ever love something or someone you fear - these two core emotions are polar opposites.
exactly - what seems strange that only in biblical times there was this boombing very audible voice, but now its only innerself or in your head type of thing :?
If the question is : Anybody thinking Organized Religion is a fake ? Then YES i am an Athiest
I strongly belief in a Higher Force - Creator
If you look at the various different religions then you will conclude that they all focus on the same subject. Their prophets/disciples are the same etc. So what is the point of different religions in any way ?
Religion = Dogma
Anyway, my 2c worth
With Love
:-D
QuoteTheir prophets/disciples are the same etc
Really? Buddhists and Hindus and others all treat Jesus as a prophet?
News to me.
Well, all the buddhists I know consider Jesus a boddhissatva, and the only Hindu I know considers Jesus an avatar of Krishna. I don't know it this qualifies as them thinking of him as a prophet, but at the very least some of them consider him an enlightened being, as it were.
Quote from: Apeman on July 18, 2007, 05:34:15
If the question is : Anybody thinking Organized Religion is a fake ? Then YES i am an Athiest
I strongly belief in a Higher Force - Creator
If you look at the various different religions then you will conclude that they all focus on the same subject. Their prophets/disciples are the same etc. So what is the point of different religions in any way ?
Religion = Dogma
Anyway, my 2c worth
With Love
:-D
I personally don't follow any religions, as I don't see there is a need for 'me' to do so. But I have no problem with people who follow or need to follow such a belief system (my wife is a practising Catholic for example).
I also don't necessarily believe in a creator, it seems to me that most people's perception of such a being is born from aspects of themselves projected onto whatever generates such evidence of 'creator' in their perception. I can happily conceive of a universe where physical death might not be absolute, but where there is also no creator or overriding coherent pattern or path. 'Life' could just 'be'. People might argue against this, but the source of such arguments would be rooted in their own personal experience and as such would not be indicative of a greater truth outside of their own sphere of experience. I think we all have a lot to learn, and perhaps have a need to look beyond the structures created by societal preconception generated over the course of humanities history.