Any written evidence which can be relied upon?

[GhostRider]

quote:Originally posted by wisp

Society is blocked in because of restraints placed by ideas constructed by men. Man's (and women) idolatry of man has put society where it is.

Churches don't take prisoners. Churches take in prisoners.

Create something, like a new idea. Apply what you know, not what someone else knows.

You know, you had me untill you said that, lol!  Man's idolatry of God and/or Gods has placed mankind in more trouble and pain than ANYTHING else.  In fact I'll go the complete opposite of you and state that if mankind would learn to love himself, express himself, and respect himself and his fellow human brothers and sisters with a FRACTION of the zeolous reverence that mankind has shown GOD... then we'd be in a better place right now.  A much better place.  Remember, when a soup kitchen is openened, when a new after-hours school is opened up in a grimy, rundown part of town for adults who dropped out of high school.  When a vaccine is found, or a baby is born... it is MAN who created and continues that.  God, is NOWHERE to be found.  In all the videos of ALL the births I've seen, GOD isn't in them.  I don't see him at the unemployment lines helping folks out, and I CERTAINLY don't see him risking his life in combat to give medical aid to a fallen comrade.

To place the credit for ALL the good in the world in God's hands is to FORGET that it was HUMANS who did that.  It is servile, and disrespectful to the achievements we, as a race have accomplished.  Yes, MAN has caused many a problem, but that's more to do with the fact that we're mortal and fallable.  Not perfect.  

I always get a kick out of it when I hear someone thanking Jesus or God or Allah for the good that's happened, for the success that THEY accomplished, etc... Yet, when tradegy happens we're not supposed to blame God, or if it did happen for a reason, it was God's will.  As if that makes it right.

Why is that most believers take the standpoint that all the GOOD in life is because of GOD, and all the BAD in life, well, that's another guy's fault, or Satan, the greatest FALL-GUY/SCAPEGOAT of all time...

Bulls**t I say, stop being down on humanity and realize the strength that MANKIND posesses.  Untill then all you'll be is a servant, and not a master...

[Gandalf]

Exactly..

I subscribe to the neoplatonist theory that we (all of humanity) IS god, we are all aspects of god filtered down through the pyramid of creation. All these individual sparks of life as aspects of god, testing itself.

Therefor, we should not praise god as if god is somewhere above looking upon us and judging us. We should praise ourselves and our achievements as things belonging to US; as we ARE god, there is no division.

This is where christianity and all other monotheistic religions f**k up IMO.
They are so hung up on the monotheistic vs polytheistic thing that they are blind to the fact that the reality lies somewhere between the two.
IMO I think a panatheistic view is more realistic, in that everything IS god or god IS everything.

It then follows that going up the heirarchy you will come across beings/aspects of god who are higher in power than us, some in fact are 'godlike' as far as we are concerned, in this way to say there are many gods is quite correct.
In fact you can say there is many gods AND one god... at the same time!

When you come down to basics, the term 'god' is just a word.. I have long held the opinion that this term should be discarded as it has a bad history.

Douglas

[wisp]

GhostRider,
Just because MOST people don't know who or what God is,doesn't make it God's fault. If anything, that too shows how faulty man's thinking is, along with everything else. Those in the know (not meant to sound superior but with a different view) and are into the essence of who God truly is, have a different prospective. Church could be a different place, or maybe not be necessary if enough people really recognize God.

Man use's God like they use everybody else. Your right about how people should learn to love and respect themselves, and this would lead to love and respect of others. Your right about expression too. Too bad man's world doesn't allow free expression of man. This is a society or culture problem, not God's. I find most people are constrained by senseless and absurd laws (based on badness as opposed to goodness). Man's work has it's own set of limits as well. They must conform to a fake hierarchy (the need to be right all the time). This being an imitation of God's hierarchy, which has a totally different purpose, if most people were not so ignorant. By ignorant I do not mean stupid, I mean not knowing (God's language is misunderstood too.)   There wouldn't be a soup kitchen in God's system. There wouldn't be a need for a vaccine in God's system either.[] God's not in it because man is running the show, nothing wrong with that. God's into miracles, but only if man takes the first step.
Man is into mortality by choice. Man's imperfection is not the problem, man's attitude is the problem (about self and God).
I find it hard to explain my view compared to yours. To me there is more than one side to God. God too has a good side, it's just that man seems to keep bring out his worst side.



Gandulf,
I have to agree with about everything you said.I can't see why pantheism has to exclude the concept of God as a person. I never could understand why someone can't believe in somone like God, although it requires no energy or effort.This holds true about the salvation by Jesus. Can't one just "plug it in" and then move on? Isn't this the same stubborness as you claim about christians? []
It's interesting that universal law parallels God's law.

I catch your concepts and I do know it's hard to describe.You did give me the picture. I have my own mental picture of it. It's constructed like a pyramid as well.

[GhostRider]

I hope I didn't come off too harshly Wisp.  But my point being was mainly that while I believe in a God that rules over us.  I don't think he'd have given us a brain, curiosity, compassion, etc... if he didn't expect us to take the lead with it.  My thought is is that he's like a father figure, taking a hand's-off approach to us, and allowing us to learn our own mistakes.  Hoping that one day we equal the abilities of the being (or beings) who created us, and hopefully proud of us if we exceed our design capabilities...

[Gandalf]

Wisp_
The reason I dont subscribe to the ideas of god as a 'person' or god as Jesus, Allah sending the prophets etc is that I think the level of consciousness at the top, the ALL as it were, is really so far away from our concept of 'personality' that there is little use in trying to compare them.
For this reason, I find the notion of the 'All' taking an active interest in the afairs of 'itself' down at this microscopic level as unrealistic.

I think that beings/aspects of itself much further down the line, and closer to our level, interact with us on a more frequent level and these beings are often mistaken as 'god', although of course, as I said, you could be said to be correct in this according to my line of thought, but only in the same way that we are also 'god'. so these beings are not 'better' than us and they certainly dont expect worship of any kind.. worship is a purely human concept imo.

If we regaqrd the pyramid of consciousness as a tree, what is often refered to as the 'tree of life', then we are all leaves, each with our own consciousness but all together we are one. Though meditation it is possible to stop being a leaf and feel what it is like being the tree.
However, most people who have experienced being the 'all', although they find it a most awsome experience, equally find that the 'all' has very little resemblence to god in the western sense of a character with his own personality and so on... this concept is far too human.

So, in the end, we are responsible for our own affairs and our own morality, our own experiences as we are all god testing itself and trying to grow. It is this resaon that IMO rules out concepts of 'divine intervention' etc as this defeats the purpose of learning.
Its a well known fact that you learn best through your own mistakes; having someone else fish you out of problems or lending a hand at every opertunity is self defeating.

However, some people have a problem with this concept as it means they have to take responsibility for their own actions.. I know this sounds basic, but some people actually find this notion scary as they are used to 'god' doing this for them.

If anything good happens it is down to god, if anything bad happens it is the 'devil' (and not god's fault as has been pointed out).
The defects of this idea are glaringly obvious as humanity is devolved of all responsiblity for anything, apart from the act of worship and loyalty to 'god', which is empty and meaningless by itself.

Douglas

[wisp]

Gandalf,
I see your point about the personality thing. Thing is, what about a point of reference or a messaging system. How do you make contact? If all you have is what you have, shouldn't you have something happening?  This is my idea about hierarchy....messaging. The triangle or pyramid is as far as I've gotten, it's multi faceted. If it didn't work for me I wouldn't use it, but it does work. Yes, your right about the vastness and size. So far in what I've found is God the personality (I can perceive), and voice (I can hear). Anything beyond that is beyond my steps of discovery. This is in the spiritual sense. You don't need physical proof. You say unrealistic, I say the path is not paved.
Worship is never how I have seen it either. Maybe that does go back to old concepts. It's a word that should be re-defined, like how about contacting. Isn't this word being replaced by worship more these days, "talking to God" for instance?
What's wrong with human? Maybe you are setting human possibilities too low. If there is something more, it's beyond my comprehension. Anything more is getting lost in a maze. Shouldn't one keep a frame of reference?

Mistakes yes, but big ones or little ones? I'll take the little mistakes. The price of the big ones may be too high cost wise. No one has come back to say they were right have they?  If so, who has come the closest to this? And, was this measured?

As I mentioned before, people use God like they use other people. You can't make someone not do this. It's a choice they make. People choose to please other people too. This one is a difficult one to get past. It's better I would think to please God than man. To please God is to please your higher self as well, this is in the right direction to me. That's as far as we have come I think.

We're only given as much as what we're safe with. And when push comes to shove, I'm not above worship if I'm headed for a collision.[] Some things are beyond our control, no doubt about it.

GhostRider,
You write like someone with a crystal aura. You make change like a shapeshifter, are you?
I agree with what you say in the last post. Your passion for people is wonderful (or so it seems). Not so for me, but I do care about people though. You seem to have the flame or spark for what it's all about. It seems your harshness toward God is a little displaced though.What's going on there?

[Mustardseed]

This is a very interesting subject really and very central to Christianity. If you will refrain from bashing (disagreeing is ok[] )listen here.

Your concept of God is true. He is far above us. Actually he does hardly care. In a way he is a unpersonal God and more like a energy. A source, a River or what-have-you!. He is the energy source of the entire universe. He is also somewhat of an enigma to the human brain and feelings. We do not understand Him nor can we concieve his ways. I say he , but we could say she it or whatever. He has no form he is in a sense of the word everything and in everything. I know it sounds oriental but hear me out. He is "in" the very molecules that your body and computer is made of, but he is limited. He has limited himself to certain rules. There are the natural laws , gravity etc and there are the Spiritual laws. The law of retribution, fx . Man is still figuring out the natural ones and OBE ability seem to be somewhere in the middle there, along with telekinesis clairvoiance etc. These are not nessesarily spiritual laws but is connected to the physical body( do this, sit there, concentrate etc)  

It seems (the Bible says) that God created man with a little bit of himself inside, but also with Free will. He also created a way for man to be re united with God, Jesus. He (suposedly!)came to earth lived like a man with free will like us. He was later united with God and he is now the acces to God for those who believe and use him. In a sense He in the mediator or the translater or the channeler. He channels Gods truths. His voice is the holy spirit. That is his tool so to speak.

We have free will and are like radio recievers, or rather born with the ability to be recievers. It is like we are powered by batteries (limited power supply) and with faith we can tune in to His broadcasting station. We might think that it is us but it is really His energy broadcasting. However we must continually live our life tuning the Radio. No automatic tuning there []. God moves, it seems as if he changes but he does not change, he moves. His power moves like mighty wawes in the spirit, and it is important that we keep tweaking the signal. Some hit the station by "accident" so to speak, and some look and search. In some the station resonates and they know by intuition this is their station. Others do not. It has also occurred to me that He might be broadcasting different programs at the same time.

So it is true that we are removed from him but we are in his presence through Jesus, who is omnipresent. He can not only multiply himself like negs but his copies all have the same power as the original.

That is just my take on it, and only my opinion.

Regards Mustardseed

[Gandalf]

Hello Mustardsed_
I think we both agree on the concept of 'god' or 'original primal energy' or 'the All' or however you want to define it. Of course this theory is called panatheism and is quite compatible with monotheistic AND polytheistic ideas as I have described, esp. how these are all just terminologies anyway.

IMO, while I feel that the 'All' or god is to far away from us to be interested, there are beings/aspects of ITself, much further down the line and closer to us that DO take an interest in our affairs to a limited degree.

I think that these beings, some of which may include 'ex humans' often communicate to people using a suitable medium which is generally the popular religions of the time. So in the classical world for example, some of these beings may have communicated to people as an aspect of Zeus or Athena or whatever was appropriate.
In the Christian era, they communicate as being aspects of Christ, or the virgin Mary or somtimes other Saints in Catholic or orthodox chistianity.
In the Arab world, they may communicate as Allah, in Hindu as Shiva etc etc.

Where we differ Mustardseed is that you accept the historical reality of a physical Jesus, which I don't accept; I guess this is just a matter of personal preference. However, even although this is the case, I can still accept the message of christianity, in fact IMO you can still be a christian without having to believe in the historical side of things, because IMO the message is the most important aspect, and this message is transmitted through christianity as well as other religions.

From here we progress to the quality of the medium, ie which religious system best translates the message.

but this is another discussion!

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

I agree with you. You do not have to be a Christian to believe. It says "even the devils believe and they tremble". However there is a point that is a bit obscure. Some, according to the Bible have "a form of Godliness but denying the power there of" It seems to fit what you describe. You see since you do not Believe in Jesus the way some do, you are also prohibited (by your own faith, or lack of faith) to acces this power!!. It is all about this faith we are talking, Right!!

Lets for a while leave the historical facts as we do not seem to be able to get anywhere!! It was a long time ago. There might and there might not be any! so lets talk about how it works, and if it works! Circumstantial evidence you might say. How does faith work?. What does it give you the power to do, believe, acces or endure or whatever. What knowledge what power what insight.

If I might ask you to read a short passage in the Bible I would like your opinion on it it is the 13th Chapter of 1 Corinthians,and you can find it on the net in a Gooble search . If you dont mind, try to read it from the King James translation. If there is anything you would like me to study I will. The chapter is very short but covers our conversasation very well, adding a very different dimension to it.

Regards Mustardseed

[wisp]

MustardSeed,
Great posts! I like your analogy using radio > transmission.
God's presence can make you tremble. I think I was right with God at the time of my spiritual experience(s). I didn't know what a "knee knocking" experience meant until then.

I read the bible chapter you suggested. I couldn't believe it when I saw verse 12. I've been thinking about that verse for some time now. I just didn't know where to find it! Thanks MS!

When I think about God, I think about me standing at the edge of the universe (as we know it). Maybe some people look at it while standing on earth. Maybe it's just one's point of view?  

MS, thanks again for your exhilarating words.

Gandalf,
I may be wrong but I've always been under the impression that man had failed God long before our present time. Jesus was a last ditch effort to salvage mankind. This is the love and sacrifice that we (as christians) are grateful for.

Just as the Jewish are not under the same law as christians, could it be that you are have a history or past which makes you not under the same restrictions or requirements? Maybe that's why what we believe doesn't make sense to you.

[Gandalf]

I will get hold of that passage you mentioned and read it as soon as I get a moment!

Douglas

[GhostRider]

quote:Originally posted by wisp

Gandalf,
I see your point about the personality thing. Thing is, what about a point of reference or a messaging system. How do you make contact? If all you have is what you have, shouldn't you have something happening?  This is my idea about hierarchy....messaging. The triangle or pyramid is as far as I've gotten, it's multi faceted. If it didn't work for me I wouldn't use it, but it does work. Yes, your right about the vastness and size. So far in what I've found is God the personality (I can perceive), and voice (I can hear). Anything beyond that is beyond my steps of discovery. This is in the spiritual sense. You don't need physical proof. You say unrealistic, I say the path is not paved.
Worship is never how I have seen it either. Maybe that does go back to old concepts. It's a word that should be re-defined, like how about contacting. Isn't this word being replaced by worship more these days, "talking to God" for instance?
What's wrong with human? Maybe you are setting human possibilities too low. If there is something more, it's beyond my comprehension. Anything more is getting lost in a maze. Shouldn't one keep a frame of reference?

Mistakes yes, but big ones or little ones? I'll take the little mistakes. The price of the big ones may be too high cost wise. No one has come back to say they were right have they?  If so, who has come the closest to this? And, was this measured?

As I mentioned before, people use God like they use other people. You can't make someone not do this. It's a choice they make. People choose to please other people too. This one is a difficult one to get past. It's better I would think to please God than man. To please God is to please your higher self as well, this is in the right direction to me. That's as far as we have come I think.

We're only given as much as what we're safe with. And when push comes to shove, I'm not above worship if I'm headed for a collision.[] Some things are beyond our control, no doubt about it.

Smart, but to help answer a previous question, it's not so much God I have a 'beef' with, it's the people who misuse him and us in his name for their own glorification and dirty little needs.  At least an invading army is more 'honest' in that it is a direct and clear grab for power that ALL can see.  The fundamentalists in this country and in others aren't direct.  They're connivying, back-handed and fork-tongued in the way that they go for the power, and the power they want indeed.  They try by influencing the thoughts of the young and old.  Creating fear, and mistrust.  Seperating folks into camps... perverting the work of real christians.  Not that I'm the one and only person who can bestow legitimacy to movements but I and others like me see this happening and it really isn't any better than what the twisted Islamic fundamentalists are doing.

quote:Originally posted by wisp

GhostRider,
You write like someone with a crystal aura. You make change like a shapeshifter, are you?
I agree with what you say in the last post. Your passion for people is wonderful (or so it seems). Not so for me, but I do care about people though. You seem to have the flame or spark for what it's all about. It seems your harshness toward God is a little displaced though.What's going on there?

Hmmm... can you clarify that, me-no-compute...must be that I'm overworked and can't think straight anymore...lol!

[wisp]

Fundamentalists huh? I'm having to think about them from my own personal dealings. I think God has put me at a distance from most of these kind a long time ago. They are an ineffectual (toward good) bunch aren't they? I don't think I like them either. []
I think they do the things you have mentioned. If you can feel your anger, think what God must be feeling? But one must not fall in the same trap as those in the pit. Emotions causes reactions, and regret often times. Thinking (reason) makes a plan and finds a solution. All the while (by good intent), God is dealing with it. Or put another way, universal law comes into play actively.

Are they responsible, or are they just mad?  How does one deal with insanity? If their not insane, are they a show to watch? A lesson maybe. You have obviously picked up on their schemes. It's about control, money, and power. They are a collection of insecurity, the desparate, the weak minded, all with a leader with the same problems (plus some).
Tracking evil is a difficult task. So far, God takes care of evil, while the people can only watch. I'm not talking about any particular scenerio or example. I have a few fundamentalists types in my neighborhood. Their creepy as hell. I personally think their possessed. Gee, have I said enough bad things here? []

About all their good for is to show what not to be, or what not to do. But, to get really down to it, the secular population does the same thing (expression of insecurity, weakmindedness,control, etc.). Maybe if one can learn what these concentrated groups do, one can learn more of the same problems dispersed in society at large. That is, if one can see problems in society too.

quote:Hmmm... can you clarify that, me-no-compute...must be that I'm overworked and can't think straight anymore...lol!

Nevermind, just thinking out loud I guess. []

I'm sorry Adrian, got a little off topic here. I have been looking at the material (Nag Hammadi links offered). I've read a little bit about the Essenes from a friend I email. I'll check on some resources about your question.  

[Beth]

Dear AP Members,

I came here the first part of September to share my master's thesis research which reveals a startling discovery about biblical scripture and the writers of that scripture. I had only just begun to share this research when I was heavily criticized and personally attacked for what I had found. Somehow this has turned into "my gospel" or "my belief system."

While this research does reveal a belief system, it is not one of my own making. It was a belief system held by ancient Hellenistic Jews, who were also the earliest Christians. It's message is nothing "new" to us in this day and age, for all we need do to study the same kind of thought is take some philosophy courses, or read some books on Platonism, Stoicism, and the neo-forms of these philosophies. It also coincides well with current thought through Quantum Physics and advanced spiritual exploration such as we have all encountered here on this forum.

Yes, this way of thinking does indeed conflict with what later Christianity offered to its believers. The conflict is massive, for it takes a literary style of communication through allegory and story and took this to be real literal events. It is the same as if 300 hundred years in our future, a group of people took a series of novels by say John Grisham, and made them "history." Archaeological excavation would reveal a lot of things that supported the possibility that the events in these books actually happened, such as numerous documents and artifacts of Washington D.C. or the Supreme Court. But their characters would not show up in any census and no other global historical records would show any evidence of the characters actually existing. Add to this 1,500 more years of insisting on the "history" of these events, and you would have much the same problem we have today—except—John Grisham's novels were not written for any other purpose than to offer us a good story. Biblical scripture on the other hand, was written for a much different reason.

These threads all show a great deal of anger and resentment--not to the originators of this mess--but at each other--the inheritors of all this confusion.

While my research is indisputable evidence of this fictional literary style, my ability is extremely limited here on the AP to offer the actual findings because I do not have a Hebrew and Greek language font to show you what I mean. I tried to illustrate examples with only a small group of words, giving both the English and the Hebrew meanings, in conjunction with the ancient writers who left us this information. The writings of Philo and Origen are not "hidden in the Bible." Their writings can be found in university and public libraries all over the globe. What is hidden in the bible is the Greek philosophy behind their writings.

I have been given a great responsibility by finding this information--a responsibility that I do not take lightly. As these threads show, this will not be an easy task for me--not because the research is not sound--but because people will not take the initiative to really look at what it reveals. It really messes things up for Modern Christianity--it takes away the foundation of it through taking away the literal truth of the writings. BUT--it gives us SO much more. It gives us views of reality that we can really understand today--whereas 2,000 years ago it would have soared right over the head of the masses of uneducated people. We are educated today--we can understand these things much easier.

Where my resentment and anger comes in, is that this conflict has to come into play at all. The accounts of Jesus never should have been peddled as real-life events, and yes, that makes it false doctrine, or "a lie" as many would want to put it. I have tried in my heart and mind to be compassionate to the bishops that sat on those councils so many hundreds of years ago. I truly do not think they knew how all of this would come down. But perhaps my compassion is misplaced. Maybe they did know. Either way--the confusion has gotten so far out of hand now--I am not sure it will ever be cleared up. Christianity is a religion with a vast number of members. My task is very overwhelming.

Mustardseed and Wisp, you are just two of the people that I have encountered vis-à-vis my research and your reactions illustrate to me how difficult my task really is. I will not of course, be in forum communication with all of my readers, I will write a book and it will be hashed out in a number of ways. It is both you and me that I am sad for. You--because you have been sold a story as truth—Me, because I have been given the truth of that story. My heart is very heavy as I write these words, because we three have entered into a battle of wills--you against me and me against you. This is not what I wanted when I first came here--nor is it what I want now.

I came back to the AP the other night for a reason I was not sure of. Idealistically, I thought perhaps I could share with you some of what I am putting in the book. I now know that this is impossible. You are not interested in my research, and while others may be, I will not post it here again for the two of you attack and take it off subject.

But wait--maybe I will post a bit more of it anyway. You are just two people on this forum. There are many others who really are interested.  So to these others, keep in mind when you are reading this that these words were written a few thousand years ago, and the style of writing is much like that found in the Bible.  Remember also that some metaphors are still present.  See what these metaphors say to you on a personal level.  So, here goes:

****************
1:1 An accounting of the origin of salvation and anointment—the discernment of the beloved and discernment of the Knowledge of God:
2 Knowledge of God is knowledge through enlightenment; enlightenment of this knowledge is equal to the measure of one's capacity for praising God and receiving God's protection ,
3 Praising God is the knowledge of breaking forth and rising in understanding of the signs and breaking forth the knowledge of the enclosures which protect the knowledge of exaltation. An exalted knowledge of a liberal people, a willing people with knowledge of divination, divined knowledge of the garments of scripture.
5 These garments are the knowledge of certain inquiry in understanding the exposition of such an inquiry into the knowledge of service, a service with knowledge of the great wealth of knowledge in being a crowned Beloved. Being a beloved of God is possessing knowledge of peace through having understood that GOD IS LIGHT.
7This peace is the knowledge of an expanding people, an expanding people with the knowledge that GOD IS KNOWLEDGE. Knowing that GOD IS KNOWLEDGE provides knowledge of healing, a healing knowledge of the judgment of the Lord. This Judgment of the Lord is knowledge of The Lord's exaltation, which is knowledge of the Power of The Lord
9The power of the Lord is a knowledge that the Lord makes complete through the knowledge of possession; a possession of the knowledge of the strength of the Lord.
10This strength is derived from knowledge of that which has been forgotten, a forgotten knowledge which has been concealed. This concealed knowledge is of the fire of the Lord. The fire of the Lord, is knowledge that was established by the Lord in his protection during the exile from the Gate of God

12After the exile from the Gate of God: The Lord established knowledge of making request of God.
So, request of God this knowledge of being born at the Gate of God.
13Being born at the Gate of God is knowledge that is vanishing.
A vanishing knowledge of God's establishment.
The knowledge of God's help.
The knowledge of righteousness.
The righteousness of being established by God.
The knowledge of being known by God.
The knowledge of God's help.
The knowledge of God's gifts—gifts according to a measure of one's capacity.
16One's capacity of knowing that God will add to the mind that of the fullness which generates salvation, which in turn is called anointing.
17Love in knowledge of God to my Beloved, Love from your Beloved exiled at the Gate of God and Love to all those exiled for the anointment.
********************

I have added very little to this translation, only a few connecting words, such as "and" "so" or "for." 99.999% of this is actually what you get when you translate these names from their Hebrew form into English. I cannot give you the proof sheets on this because I do not have a Hebrew font, and you do not possess a Hebew lexicon, but these sentences are found when you translate from Hebrew, all the names in Matthew 1:1-17--or the genealogy of Jesus. These names are not a Davidic bloodline as we have been told that they are--these names were used to encode information that coincides with neo-Platonic and Stoic thought that was then formed into what we know today as some form of Gnostic thought. Was it the secret society of the Essenes that wrote these scriptures? I really cannot say. But I do know that someone encoded this information through the use of proper names in an otherwise interesting epic of stories.

Whew...there--I have shown you now. This is not speculation, and this is not "my opinion." This, my friends is FACT. This is not limited to the New Testament writings either. This was a literary style of mystical communication that is carried over from the Hebrew Bible or what Christians call the Old Testament. It is called Merkabah Mysticism or the Chariot of Knowledge about God. There are over 3,000+ biblical proper names and numerous lists throughout the entire Bible where most all of them reveal something of this nature. Some names were used in smaller amounts to create theologies and expound upon certain philosophical ideas. Some of these I have already given to you from the writings of Philo, Origen, Jerome and Augustine. Clues to it are in The Bahir, Sefer Yetzira, and other Jewish midrash that we still have today. The later Kabbalists also knew of this method, and they used it as well. There is also a great deal more to say about this which includes other literary methods such as gematria--a numerical/literary system. That is why I am in the process of writing an entire book on this subject, to provide all the backup and research that I have found, some of which I have already shared with you here. Yet, I have truly only chipped the tip of this massive iceberg.

Mustardseed, several weeks ago you became quite upset about all of this, saying that this attacks your entire belief system--your entire life's work. Believe it or not, I cried for you that night. I cried for you and for me--for all of us--because of what we have all inherited. I do not want to hurt anyone--that is SO NOT me. But I also do not think that I was given this information to keep to myself. Yes--this research is in answer to almost 40 years of questioning, and over ten years of intense study. I needed to know--I kept asking--and I received my answer. It has caused me to spiral into more spiritual crises than I can say. While I did not channel it or anything like that--all of my personal experiences that I have chosen not to share here led me to complete this research in a myriad of ways. Unfortunately, I cannot provide the spiritual counseling or help that many may need after reading this research. I guess we will all have to turn to God for that. That is what I have had to do.

I am really taking a chance on posting this here. It may be received in much the same way as all the other things that I tried to share with you. But here it is nonetheless. I am truly sorry if this disturbs anyone--but I did not write these scriptures, and I was not the one who proclaimed that the names were real people. My burden to reveal this is very heavy, but I must always keep in my mind and heart that--I am but the messenger--not the creator of the message.

May Peace Eventually Be With Us All,
Beth



*The above translation of Matthew 1:1-17 is excerpted from Fire on the Water: Biblical Proper Name Exegesis and Language Based Mysticism, by Beth B. Phillips, copyright 2003.

[GhostRider]

Thanks Beth... consider me already interested in your book when it gets completed.  Thank you for your post.  And I think you are right, there's a lot of anger placed upon both sides.  It makes me sad to think that fundamentalists, through ignorance (willfull or accidental) 'screwed-up' such a beautiful message.  What's even more disheartening is that in today's day and age of better historical record keeping and sharper science that there are people who still adhere to the false teachings AND seek to perpetuate their ignorance as well as parlay it into real power.

 We need more authors like you Beth.

~GhostRider (Kevin)

[Adrian]

Greetings Beth,

Brilliant post; thank you very much indeed for that.

You can be certain that all of your posts are appreciated highly by the silent majority. Please, please keep it all coming as time permits.

Mustardseed and Wisp are just two examples, with the greatest respect to them, of millions of others out there, all of whom will feel the same way. However, we must not and cannot hold back on the truth. Humanity is going backwards, and towards the darkness, the root cause of which is the creed, dogma and extreme misinformation of the orthodox churches. Materialism is another major problem, yet it can be traced back to the churches. If people knew the true path as immortal Spiritual beings, and what we all need to do to progress our destinies, the world would not be in the state it is in today. The church however, as I have said before, provided everyone with a convenient, no effort, packaged belief system, without any basis, but which has caused people to be ingnorant of their true nature and destiny, by accepting the convenience of a packaged belief system rather then making the ongoing effort to seek the truth and follow their own path. Mankind had been severely held back for the last 2000 years. People enjoy convenience, and the church and its doctrines have been most convenient, even with convenience stores, churches, in all convenient locations, issuing a convenient book of rules to follow in order to buy a ticket to "heaven" rather than being consigned to "hell" as a non-believer.

Beth; Your work is both courageous and very much needed by humanity. Your book will make a massive impact, and hopefully be a major contribution to the turning point, where mankind once again faces the light with the truth and sense of true purpose and destiny.

Keep up the most valuable work. I for one look forward to seeing more of your excellent contributions here, and of course to your book.

Mustardseed, Wisp et al. I do understand your feelings, however, the information presented by Beth and in particular her forthcoming book are groundbreaking and extremely important in the grand scheme of things as well as being extrmely courageous. Such a book written hundreds of years ago could have altered the course of history, and the planet would be an infinitely better place for everyone. I know it is hard and I respect your positions, but please, please do not confuse the facts so eloquently conveyed by Beth for the benefit of us all as an attack on either yourselves or your beliefs. The nature and importance of the work being carried out by Beth is such that there is no other way of presenting it, I would present it in the same way. There is no room for being less than robust, especially when we are dealing with the truth.

Keep going Beth!

With best regards,

Adrian.
 

[Mustardseed]

Dear Beth and Adrian and all of the silent majority out there

I seem to have been singeled out by you all so I find it polite to answer.

First Beth . I know we have a problem. The problem is probably a mix of of things. First your pompous way of expressing yourself and secondly my proud way of not wanting to listen to anyone who push me! I do have some problem with your research and I was open enough to tell you not expecting you would herald it out as a big thing but so be it. IT is true that if what you say is true is really true I have to make some adjustments[] I have committed myself to the truth so ......lets see.

My point is this only. I totally believe that the words in the Bible are divine and mysterious, I also think they are multi faceted and therefore I see no reason why they could not be just another level of the truth. Please try to understand this Beth. Why does any of this suprise you so much. It is supposed to be divine and beyound men.

I think a bit further and reason like this. If you are right then the Bible is not nessesarily ant standard to go by. There is no right no wrong. It is a fabrication made by men and we are reduced to nothing more than globs of neutrons and cromozomes .

I feel that there is right and there is wrong there is absolutes and there is a God. Your¨indisputable truth seem to me to be nonconclusive. I never deniecd your research was groundbreaking but I reserve myself to make my own conclusions . I do not want anyone , you or a Church to tell me what I should believe, and what the Truth is. Is that too much to ask.

So all that to say good luck with the book I will look forward to it , but be careful with your conclusions and stay away from thinking that you or your research is infailable. History is full of folks who thought they were the answer to the worlds problems and who sincerly believed they had been given a mission to lead the masses.

And for goodnes sakes stay away from the elitist thing it really sucks.

[Beth]

Mustardseed,

As I have tried to say many times before--taking away the bible as a literal history book does NOT in any way take away God--unless you can only have God as incarnated through a man 2,000 years ago.  

I my reality, GOD is SO VAST that we cannot ever truly know everything there is to know about God.  The best that we can do is discover what God is NOT.  And God was or is--No One Man or Woman.  

Yes, these scripures were written by humans--but that fact does not reduce us "to nothing more than globs of neutrons and cromozomes."  These writers were very enlightened individuals--they saw God as LIGHT and as KNOWLEDGE--as MIND.  We speak in these same terms 2,000+ years later!  They were brilliant humans and that says a great deal about who and what we all really are--we are spiritual beings for a time living in bodies of flesh.  

As I have already posted here on this forum, some of these writers tell us of their mystical experiences of "Light", "Lucid Dreams" and "Out of Body Flights."  They tell us about you and about me--about most all of us--in potential at least.  They speak of the "silent or small still voice" that we hear within us, that leads us, guides us, and gives us the spiritual information that we receive.  They tell us about the soul and the body and they speculate as to how and why we can have a soul, where it comes from and what happens to our soul after we leave this "mortal coil."  Origen of Alexandria speculated that there were 42 different levels (or perhaps dimensions?) that we must all travel through between here and the Godhead.  He finds this in the Book of Numbers, chapter 33, by translating the "place names" of the 42 camps of the Israelites after they fled from Egypt.  One of my earlier posts discusses this in detail, but I will remind you here that the meaning of "Israelite" is in this ancient Hebrew mysticism "the mind that can see God."  And to be a "son of God" is to be able to "discern God."  The meaning of "Abraham," who God called out from "Ur" (which means "light or fire") is "the knowledge of the seer" and "Uriah" means "God is Light."

By the Church generating the interpretation of these scriptures as being historical truth and the only Word of God--as you say "mysterious" and "beyond men"--it remained "beyond men" for many centuries. A great deal of harm has come from this fact. Why was there such a mystery about this?  Because by the 3-4th centuries, Christians had become so alienated from their Jewish roots that no one knew how to read Hebrew!  It was therefore a mystery.  Later, this mystery worked to the Church's advantage, keeping people dependent upon their interpretation and the "wisdom of the priesthood."

As far as your warning me to be careful of my conclusions and from thinking that my research is infallible, all I can say is that I wish others had said the same thing to those founders of the Catholic Church so many centuries ago.  As an author, I would be remiss if I drew no conclusions at all--but the majority of the conclusions to be drawn from this is not of my making, but rather of those who wrote the scriptures in the first place.

I hope that somehow through this research God and humankind will be freed from the ancient pages of a book that was actually created to do just that--but before too long, it was misunderstood and then severely misued. But when we take away the historical claims of these scriptures--we have no where else to go but to God, and to the other realms of existence to which we all belong.  I trust that God can and will handle any crises that arise from this.

May God Be With Us All.  Selah and Amen,
Beth

[Gandalf]

Beth_
Thanks for your return and imput, it is apreciated by everyone here, I for one have found this thread very intertesting and entertaining, even when the flak starts firing on all cylinders!

I am wondering if you could give me your opinion on somthing:

As part of my Ancient history degree (Greek & Roman history) I studied a module on Paganism and Christianity. Now the gist of the course was that christianity was one of many 'oriental cults' that filtered into the Roman empire, along with Mithraism, Isis, Serapis, Jupiter Dolichenos etc. Of course, christianity eventially emerged as supreme (Due mainly to imperial patronage) and was moulded into a state religion by constantine et al. At this point the empire turned inot a christian theocracy, or if I was being a bit more unkind, a christian fundamentalist state.

After the Edict of Toleration was issued in 313 and espectially after 325 (Nicea) the arguments started; eg the Arian heresy (Eusibios supported Arian's theory), the donatists etc.

This is where the gnostics come in. Now, as I stated a while back, I think there is still some controvesy amongst academics as to whether the original scriptures were written with a gnostic subtext as it were or if the gnostics were just a bunch of philosophers/theosophists who took the already written, literal scriptures and re-interpreted them for their own ends, perhaps reading into the texts things that were not originally intended.

What is the current view on this as far as you are aware? I don't know if you have read Robert Turcan's book 'Cults of the Roman empire' but certainly his view seems to be that the gnostics were just a bunch of philosphers who adopted christian sacriptures for their own ends, he doesnt seem to  hold them with any high regard as such.

The premise of your book seems to be in opposition to this view.. is that correct? Is Turcan's view the general academic opinion of gnostics?

Douglas

PS btw Mustardseed, I will get back to you about that bible passage when I get a chance to read it; I've just been REALLY busy, this is my first time on the board for ages!

[cailin]

Does nobody think that jesus for example was just a person who was very spiritually complete and could astrally project?
Heal? have empathy and everything else that goes towards us being total humans.
This is what I believe and it goes the same for every other religion out there. They and their "christs" have all these things in common.
We, People, have in the past turned these people into the figures they are tody since religion got a foot hold on this world.
mohammehed, buddah, and jesus were all people.
What made them different?
Why do we still know about them to this day?
Forget Religion... this
These people were great leaders, strong people who knew what this world was about and why we are here.
But because of ignorance and and the fact that the majority have conveniently forgotten  that the right way to live was to be aware and to love and to be always at peace with yourself and the world- the energy that we call this world.
These people were connected in every sense of the word.
We silly people, well you know who, - goverments, the church and greedy souls have lost the true message.
But through site like this and people who make it their priority to get to the truth I see a bigger awareness and everybody is noticing, they dont know what it is.
I think I see it in things like people wanting to eat organic food, and in working life for some people who get the benefits from there employers who are also aware of stress and how that effects you.

As far as oral communication goes when trying to get information about the past as far as I know about oral story telling tradition being Irish and having a strong oral tradition you could find before these stories were written down was that the people who knew these stories learned them by heart from generation to generation. But I just think the collection of stories in the bible were not meant to be read literally like they are fact, but they are for the purpose of learning from the story like a parable. i know parables have their own compartment but it seems so obvious that these strories were lessons.
Then again maybe I'm completely wrong lol.

well I think I've written enough now dont want to go off on a tangent too much, Take Care.
Cailin.

[Mustardseed]

You misunderstand me Beth. I do see what you are saying but somehow it does not rhyme with me. Let me explain it another way.

If the Bible is written by men, and in a fiction (albe it a good one as yopu say) it is still only someone elses understanding of the divine and does not nessesarily have to be obeyed. If the Bible says thet Love is the most important thing, to Love God and your neighbour as yourself etc one does not have to take that as a commandment. Self enlightenment is more important.

This commandment is for me the central point in the Bible. (As far as I understand the 10 commandments are null and void).

If one assumes that it is a story only. God has no particular like or dislike , he is reduced to a energy` sort of like electricity and cannot be approached . I approach him through Jesus but that would be then unnessesary. People would have to start making their own religion and try to figure things out, maybe even by how things do not work, trial and error, and we would all have the possibility of making our own rules, go our own way and do our own thing.

People with more entelligence education and money (to get this intel and edu) would be ahead of the game.You mentioned this in your other post.

(Beth said)
We have tip-toed around you guys for too long. Good people have spent many hours on this board offering you and Mustardseed (and whoever else) a great deal of very important information -- FREE OF CHARGE. We are the ones who have invested the time, the effort, and the expense to educate ourselves. We bought the books, took the classes, and studied the languages--for you. We decided to share all that we have learned with you, because we know how very hard it is to get the education that we have. We also know that it is not feasible for everyone to do. But what do you do instead of be grateful for the free education that you are receiving? You insult and criticize instead of learn of things you do not know. Instead of filling these pages full of empty and petty criticism, you should be taking advantage of what is offered to you here. You should be asking more questions of us instead of bringing the valid questions of others to a screeching halt with your circular arguments and marytr complexes. (end qoute)

The poor would be serfs and there would be no reason for helping anyone becourse people would be where they are at becourse of karma. I see chaos, pain and ignorance in such a world, and intuitivly believe this to be a falsehood.

This is not to accuse you or anything but in a way I believe that this is gonna be the "plastic peace" offered the world by the Antichrist. It says "he will come in peacefully and obtain the kingdom by flatteries" it also says "he will cause witchcraft to prosper" and finally it says that he will "persecute all who does not worship his image" his way and his religion. "the time will come where people will kill (Christians) thinking they are doing Gods service" the monotheistic religions will be a thorn in the hand of such a system and  the ones who does not follow Him.

This is prophecy from the Bible that I think you are quite familiar with. I see the rise of such a world emminent. I see it happening before my very eyes. Worship of the creation instead of the creator. Mother earth etc. I think that this movement will also have its servers (world servers?) and that it needs "proof" in the form of books as well as research and it needs people to write this research, "the new Gospel" so to speak.

I realise we are at odds in this and that you will have very persuasive arguments and allegories why this is not so. All I can say is ....Well .....lets see. I am a patient man. For now I will look forward to you book, and stay alert and in my own way "test the spirits".

Nothing seems conclusive to be , interesting maybe even groundbreaking, but nonconclusive neverthe less.

Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Hey everyone!

Gandalf,

Hey there![]

How have you been?  

No, I do not think that Christianity was filtered into the Roman Empire as much as the Roman Empire came into an area where the roots of Christianity were already formed.  Not necessarily Judaism proper, but rather, a Hellenistic Judaism that was in the form of a mystery religion that was already well established by the first century.  The Isis and Osiris cults were already well established as well.

Mithraism, as I understand it, was the Roman Empire's version of a mystery religion, actually sharing some of the symbolism that was just universal at the time.  I also do not think that Christianity in its original form ever "ruled supreme," for what Christianity had ultimately turned into by the 4th century, was most definatly NOT the same Christianity that it was in the beginning.  

Most scholars don't think very highly of the gnostics, and most especially Christian scholars, but they and Robert Turcan have not really studied the topic to its fullest extent or they would not be so quick to make such judgments.  Did you read my post on page six of this thread? If so, you will see that the encoded message in the genealogy of Jesus is indeed gnostic in nature, a Greek philosophical brand of gnosticism, and yes, it appears that the gnostics/mystics were actually the ones who wrote the scripture with their esoteric knowledge embedded within a literal level of story. So, no, they were not "reading anything into scripture." It was already there, they knew it was there, and they were just expounding upon it.  That's my take on it anyway[8D]!!!

Mustardseed,

You wrote:

"This is not to accuse you or anything but in a way I believe that this is gonna be the "plastic peace" offered the world by the Antichrist. It says "he will come in peacefully and obtain the kingdom by flatteries" it also says "he will cause witchcraft to prosper" and finally it says that he will "persecute all who does not worship his image" his way and his religion. "the time will come where people will kill (Christians) thinking they are doing Gods service" the monotheistic religions will be a thorn in the hand of such a system and the ones who does not follow Him."


First of all, if you are referring to my research, I don't think it will be "ushered in peacefully" at all.  Your own reaction is indicative of this.  Statistically speaking, I suspect there will far more people that do not like my book, than those who will.  

As an alternative to your theory however, have you ever considered that you are reading a 2,000 year old prophecy that has already come true?  That the events of the beast actually began centuries ago? That you are still waiting for the mysterious events of the beast to occur, and that they are actually almost at an end now?  

I ask these questions because there is a very good possibility that the creation of the Christian Church was the anti-christ that the writer of The Revelation spoke of, for as it has turned out, The Church has provided a very "plastic peace" that you speak of. How can I possibly say something so outrageous?  Because look around you, you see a well established Church and you also see war, famine, hatred, and avarice.  Look back through history, and you will find all the things that were supposed to happen after the anti-christ was released "for a time" and most all of them have happened while the Church has supposedly been in charge of our spiritual welfare.  Why aren't things better yet?  Whatever the Church's plan was/is for our spiritual welfare—it has not worked. Our world is in a mess Mustardseed, and yet the Church has been around for many centuries now, continually promising that it will all get better when The Revelation begins to unfold.

Throughout the 1,700 years after the development of the Christian Church, all of these things that you write of have already happened. The Church and its priesthood have been built, most especially during the Middle Ages, on the very "flattery" that you speak of.  And today it is even more so than ever.  Look at the untold vast wealth of the Vatican, the whole pomp and circumstance of the papacy, and the ritual kneeling to and kissing of the papal ring. If this is not flattery, I do not what it would be.  And Protestantism has its own form of flattery primarily that it is the "only way" and the "only truth" and that all non-believers are lost, ungodly, and will burn.  I would say that this is self-flattery at its best.

It is also quite possible that the "image" of Jesus, hanging grotesquely on a cross is "the image" that as you point out "had to be worshiped or--be killed." Millions of people have died because they refused to accept this as truth, or to worship in this manner.  And yes, witchcraft did prosper during the Middle Ages, (has actually always prospered) and the Church made sure that they tortured and burned as many of them as they could find, and I might add, many of those who were actually innocent of witchcraft as well.

We hear all this hoopla today about jihad, or holy war.  Holy wars have been fought for many centuries, and most of these holy wars were led by the Christian banner, and won by the Christian banner. The history of the Christian Church is not pretty Mustardseed, and when The Revelation is read with the past 1,700 years in consideration, then it could easily be said that the prophecies have, for the most part, already been fulfilled.

Need more evidence?

Isn't it true, that according to the NT stories, Jesus, his disciples, and Paul, were all urging people "away" from organized religion, AWAY from the temple and synagogue, away from the "letter of the law" and away from the politics of man, and urged them toward the "spirit of the letter" and the reality of God and the Holy Spirit instead?  

What is the Christian religion Mustardseed, if not an organization of tens of thousands of churches, of an organized, systematized religion, that has certainly carried a great deal of political weight through the years, and as a matter of fact, still does.  The letter of the law Mustardseed is the literal interpretation, the one and only "true" interpretation according to the Church.  Whether you actually attend Church or not is not the point, the point is, if you accept the literal interpretation of scripture, then you are following the letter of the law.  

The spirit of the law, on the other hand, is within us all, and available to us all, in whatever form it takes.

The Christian Church was actually founded by the very political machine, i.e., the Roman Empire, that the NT is warning everyone against.  The "seven heads of the first beast" in the prophecy was most probably representative of "Rome" for it was also known at that time as "the seven hills."  The following passage tells us about the second beast:  

Rev:13:14 "Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived."

What "image" was set up in honor of one who was stabbed in the side by the sword, and yet still lived, if not a literal interpretation of Jesus' crucifixion?  Remember, Jesus did not die of the sword wound in his side, for he is claimed to have overcome his own death.  

In verse 15 we read: "He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed."  

The power to "breathe life into the first beast" could very well have been the 4th century version of the Christian religion "breathing life" back into the rapidly dying Roman Empire.  And, I might add, it worked.  And further, as I already said above, untold millions have been brutally murdered through the centuries for not following one or both of these powerhouses.    

In verse 18 we also read:  

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a man's number. His number is 666."

In Hebrew, every letter has numerical value, and when added together, they form arithmetical numbers that were used for encoding secrecy such as this.  Scholars have long speculated that the Roman Emperor Nero was this 666 anti-christ, and one form of his name does add up to this, but as another scholar has also pointed out, the letters of the word "Jesus" (yeshua) are: Y 10+ H 5+ SH 300+ U 6+ H 5=326 and add to that the Hebrew word for "name" (shem) SH 300+ M 40=340 and the final rendering for the phrase "Jesus' Name" is also 666.  In what do Christians pray? In Jesus' Name. I know this sounds outrageous, but it is the case nonetheless.

Finally, doesn't this prophecy also state that most everyone will follow the beast, and that only the "select few" will be reunited with Christ in the end?  Look around you, Christians number in the millions Mustardseed, and have for centuries, so even if the prophecies have not actually happened yet, the Christian religion is not "the few" of anything.  

Who knows exactly what all the heavy symbolism means in The Revelation?  No one for sure Mustardseed, but great have been the numbers of speculations and great are the possibilities.  The one that I have spoken of here, that the Christian Religion could very well be the anti-christ is certainly one of them.  

As to "What God Wants"?  Personally, I have no idea what "God" wants, or if "God" is capable of "wanting" anything at all. Perhaps "God is Light" or some form of "energy" that we have yet to ascertain. I truly think it is beyond our comprehension.  That does not, in any way, remove us from personal responsibility, or the presence of right and wrong, but it does give the Holy Spirit (which I feel I know at least a little bit about) the power to aid us in deciding these things for ourselves, and not an ancient text that was written for a totally "other" reason.  There is certainly to be found, some very good moral guidelines in the Bible, but they are also found in virtually every moral philosophy around the world.  Do not lie.  Do not steal.  Do not kill.  These are laws of common sense, not just laws of an inerrant Bible.  

And why do you think that people will have to create yet another religion to decide these things for them?  Why is religion necessary at all?  Give the power over to the real holders of power, whether it be called God, The Holy Spirit or any number of other epithets.  You and I both know that it is here/there, somewhere, that it is much more powerful than we are, and far wiser, so why don't we just stand still and let it work through us?  Why do we have to have a group consensus on this at all? If your answer is to avoid chaos, well you said it yourself, we do not have to look very far to see chaos within our midst, and our world is largely dominated by religion of some sort or other.

The "real peace" that you speak of Mustardseed, and this part is my opinion, will only be found when we allow for what we call the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Jesus and/or other Masters, to work within us and through us, not as literal humans, but as the representatives of the Divine Realm that they are. A Divine Realm that we have only begun to understand, because free-thinking allows it to become available to us, and until we really explore it we will never know.  

"Real peace" will not be found until we start living our lives as the divine spiritual beings that we really are.  

Beth

[Gandalf]

Excellent post Beth!
Yes, I will read page 6 of this thread containing that info when I get a moment, which is difficult... I really want to read that bible passage that Mustardseed recomended to me as well... time!!!

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. I agree that the most logical conclusion to be drawn from 'Revelations' is that it was refering to Rome. At that time Rome WAS the world, filling pretty much the same position that the USA does in today's world. However, it is pretty clear that the early christians believed that the end of the (Roman) world would occur in their own lifetime. I always find that modern Christians attempts to apply them to present times is like fitting a square peg in a round hole, but if you hit it hard enough it will fit!

BTW this is nothing new, the 'end of the world' has been claimed continuously throughout history, and if you read your history, holy wars, famine and war are not really any more common place than in the past; the weapons are more powerful, but the intent is the same as it always has been; It is just that people have very short memories; people wax on about the world we live in today with terrorism etc... er, has everyone forgotten about WW2 with an estimated death toll of 65 million world-wide from 1939 to 1945? thats much more of an 'end time scenario' IMO, and only 50 years ago!!!!

I also agree that christianity was never meant to be the 'world religion' that Constantine turned it into. In the earlier days it was a mystery religion, where entry was through initiation, it was not meant for the masses.
As for Nero being the 'anti-christ'. This has long been seen as daft by scholars, as it is now clear that most of the stories about Nero are WAY over the top. A lot of the blame is due to Roman historians like Suetonius who was basically the british tabloid press writer of his day. In fact Nero did not 'fiddle while watching Rome burn'.
For one, the fiddle didnt exist, and even if it was a lyre, well, he was not even IN Rome when the fire occured.
Secondly, the local christian community were just useful scapegoats at the time, it was nothing personal; also the numbers arrested were actually very small, but the whole thing was blown out of proportion by later christian writers; and nowhere like what we can call a 'persecution'.

The same can be said of all the Roman emperors; whatever you have heard, most of them were actually very capable rulers and even the dodgy ones like Nero, Domitian and Gaius (Galigula) have been exagerated by later christian writers who sought to discredit the earlier 'heathen emperors'. cf smug christian authors like Eusibios and Lacantius who pour scorn on the earlier emperors.

IMO Holywood, at its christian moralising worst, buring the 50's and 60's, has had the worst influence in this regard, they swallowed whole the sensationalist tales of Suetonius and later writers without stopping to think what these writers agenda might have been!

Cf narration of Sparticus at begining: 'this cruel, wicked empire which would soon fall to to its own corruption'.... er.. the Sparticus revolt was in 73BC, I dont think they've got anything to worry about there........
And don't get me started on 'The Robe' with Richard Burton!

Anyway, I'm way off topic, but certainly from what I've read, the gnostics are not highly regarded by the academic mainstream; Actually I dont think its anything to do with christian scholars as such; rather, its all scholars: peer pressure tends to ensure that any real focus on spiritual beliefs are excluded from academic debate, not just christian views but ANY spiritual views.
So, for example, the causes of the rise of christianity has to argued in socio-political terms; if you just stand up and say, 'God made it happen' you will crash and burn!

I feel that the current historical mainstream refuses to examine these esoteric groups because of a kneejerk reaction against spiritualism in any form, in which case someone needs to focus attention back onto these groups once again as they have been sadly neglected; Your work may kickstart such a trend change... Role on!

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Hi Beth
I actually heard this interpretation a long time ago. I think it was associated with some gnostic movement and I presume that we have always had the gnostic thoughts with us. It sounds very plausible and eloquent and I certainly see how people could emotionally feel that this have to be true. However I think it is flawed, for several reasons.

If the ones who wrote the Bible, knew the future so to speak, they must have been either good guessers or inspired by something spiritual.

If they wrote the bible and guessed only it seems illogical to me that they would have done so knowing what antrocities the book would cause. That is not logic. If they did they must hav e meen motivated by a very sinister reasoning.

If they were inspired by God, He/she/it would be writing a book with rules of love and kindness, knowing that they would be misused to cause suffering. In that case God is a monster.

If it was written with the aid of a neg entity. It would not have been able to be used for any good at all. It is my understanding that negs are just that negs and cannot create, and certainly have no love. Many good things has come as a result of Christianity as well. Right?

If it was spoken by Jesus, He would have to have been real, which you say he wasn't.

All in all confusing. I find it more along the lines of wishful thinking. Like packing my boat for a trip and saying here is the stuf we wanna take.....lets fit it in as opposed to here is the space we have how much can we fit in.

Personally I totally believe that the Churches are going to be a part of the AC rule. They along with the catolic are all part of the Beast, commercialism politics and ecologic movements etc. Most of them have no deeper understanding of the things of the Spirit. I think that many of the the fundementalists will also find them selves at home there. Fighting physically. Just see the American zealots running around blowing up abortion clinics.

The real Christians will be very few and far scattered. United only by the Spirit of God, they will know and they will be united.

When I first became a Christian in the 70s we had no computers andf the thoughts of a world govt. was premature, but it was in the Bible so I put it aside in a little box and "believed" we had no computers to facilitate a cashless society either. I am from Europe and over there Beth they are on the fast track to this very thing. The world is moving so fast toward this next step and I believe that the AC is alive and kicking somewhere. Maybe I will see it come to pass maybe not. I see the signs everywhere.

I know it is sort of quaint to turn things around like that, and it does have that certain ......"wow effect". But that is just the presentation , if you examine this theory closer and extend it, then all you end up with , imo is ....confusion.

A final thought is that it seems evident that the Devil (according to Christianity) is trying to be God . He was thrown out of the heavenlies (upper astral levels) and confined to earth maybe the (RTZ). Anyway he wants to be worshipped as God. His problem is he is not creative he can only copy. He is thought to be copying Jesus by making his "son" the AC fulfill many of the exact same signs that Jesus fulfilled. It seems that when he does arrive at the scene whole populations will herald him as Jesus returned, that seems to be all part of the plan. Even the "mark of the beast" is a copy, as God also marks his people in their forehead.(Rev) All he has power over is the physical and He will try to erect The Kingdom of "God" on earth, ......physically.

It is for sure an interesting time we live in. I enjoy the ride and have no problem with waiting to see. So I suggest we do that.  

 
Regards Mustardseed

PS The peaceful thing was not about you Beth. That was the AC. I do believe that his Gospel will be a conglommeration of different writings and doctrines all of them heralding a New Age of enlightenment for Man. He will sit in the Temple of God saying he is God.

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

Thank you very much indeed Beth for yet another excellent contribution. With regards to your closing observation:

quote:Originally posted by Beth
The "real peace" that you speak of Mustardseed, and this part is my opinion, will only be found when we allow for what we call the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit of Jesus and/or other Masters, to work within us and through us, not as literal humans, but as the representatives of the Divine Realm that they are. A Divine Realm that we have only begun to understand, because free-thinking allows it to become available to us, and until we really explore it we will never know.  

"Real peace" will not be found until we start living our lives as the divine spiritual beings that we really are.  

Beth

I believe this to be a profound truth!

And orthodox religion can be considered to be the root cause as to why this has failed to happen (yet), and a major reason why mankind and the planet is in the state it is in today; for many of the reasons Beth so excellently shared with us in this and other topics.

If the mission of the "anti-christ" is to cause the downfall of humanity, the moral decay of society, and concealment from mankind of the truth and true destiny, then it could be said, with more than some justification, that the church itself is the anti-christ who's number is 666; as well as Aleister Crowley that is [] This might seem like a strong statement, but the fact is nevertheless, orthodox religions are directly responsible for causing people to believe that providing they believe in and worship their God (be it the christian or islamic versions etc.), and read the bible, then they need do no more and be automatically "saved", and earn the ticket to "heaven". People have therefore, as a direct result, due to the convenience and visibility of the church, failed to seek and comprehend their true Spiritual reality and destiny, and failed to live their lives as Divine Spiritual, immortal beings of the Universe. Where people have sought to seek and follow the truth, the christian religion has historically treated such Souls horribly, often by means of torture and death. Those who where, often wrongly, accused of witchcraft were burned at the stake; is not trial by fire a mark of "satan".

These comments do not apply to Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucionism, Kabbalah, Hermetics and many other truly Spiritual traditions, all of which know and follow the true path.

There are many sources of the common prophesy of a "mass extinction" within the human race, analogous to the great flood, but in this case it is prophesied the cause will be a dimensional shift, causing an etherealisation of the physical world, such that only those who's "vibrations" match the increased vibrations of the physical world will survive. The fact is Mustardseed, it will not be the adherents to creed, dogma, orthodoxy and materialism who will "be saved", it will rather be those who have sincerely sought and found the true path, the true destiny of all humanity, the true meaning of life, and who lived their lives accordingly. It should be pointed out, if the prophesy should come to pass, those humans who failed to survive in the physical world will not be destroyed; everyone is an immortal Spiritual being. They will rather transition to the Astral worlds which will become their new home. The problem is however, the reason people incarnate into the trials and tribulations of the physical world time and again is to progress, such progression is much more difficult in the Astral worlds alone, although of course the opportnities so exist, if recognised and accepted, as it is the true destiny of every single person to ultimately achieve the potential of reuniting with God as a perfected aspect of Him/Herself.

With best regards,

Adrian.