Are Lucifer and Jesus...Brothers??

[adzzy]

To begin with, I think we need to go to the defining point of Lucifer, Isaiah 14:12, of course, the problem with this, is you must and i stress must read isaiah 14:1 through to 14:32 to actually gain context.

Read it all (i won't quote it, I'm sure we all have access, if not or you're just lazy http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvisa14.htm works)

Add to this Lucifer is not a hebrew word, it is in fact a latin word, referring specifically to "Venus the Morning Star" (I know this btw because i was reaearching the originations of my surname, Venus ironically), a pagan goddess at one time was kicked out of the heavens because of her own pride.  Sound familiar, it should.

Isaiah is a reference to the babylonian king (Nebuchadnezzar (sp?)) only, nothing more, nothing less, the term Lucifer was a specific metaphor meant to serve one purpose, make sense to a predominantly pagan people through the use of a well known story to exemplify their definition.

As you may know, there are certain christian sects that believe that the being commonly known as Satan doesn't exist, that it was simply manufactured in order to provide a viable excuse.

In a way, they are correct, it was used as an excuse for people doing things that are wrong, but equally, so has the idea of "god guided me to do the right thing" where people mean it literally instead of metaphorically, too many people use both arguments in a too literal meaning.

However to get back to the point of a Satan, there argument falls down at one argument.  As a side note, central to their belief is the word we know as Satan is literally translated to "The Adversary" from hebrew to english, never more never less, this btw is a conceded point, it is true.

If God is a perfect measure of justice and compassion, the idea that God wouldnt allow such a being to exist falls down right here :

Who did Satan kill in his rebellion to warrant his own destruction?

For in a perfect balance of justice and compassion, would the only viable punishment for rebellion be explusion?  

If we are to believe that angels are in fact immortal themself, would we not consider that it would be impossible for an angel to kill another (they're not highlander's folks ), as such Satan could have never have killed anyone before his banishment took place?  As how could you fairly judge someone to death when they themself had never taken the life of another being, nor had they "forced" any other being to perform such an act. (Coerced yes, but forced no, each of us must take responsibility for our own actions, to claim an angel should be renounced of that same general rule, could then be applied to Satan, so again it would prove wrong).  

Even post banishment, he never killed anyone, because there were those that listened to him in his test of Job means naught, for he can't be held responsible for the actions of others as he demostrated there (what we would call a legal precendent mordern day), that he was still bound to follow certain laws which one could assume includes subjugation of free will...

[GhostRider]

I have been wondering whether Jesus and Lucifer (and other famous and not-so-famous religious duos elsewhere) are the Yin/Yang representation of our own species morality and by creating these two creatures we provide ourselves with a forum to act out our higher and more banal sides of our nature, as well as give the less intellectually curious and  less independantly-minded amongst us something to hold on to (belief-wise) so that they don't feel so alone?

Just a thought, any takers?

[wisp]

Hi Ghostrider,
Good to see you. You haven't been around for awhile. I don't believe we are the creators of God, Lucifer, or Jesus. I do believe we can create a perception within our own mind, who they are. Most people from what I've seen are not creative thinkers, not even thinkers, as far as that goes. It's really difficult for me to imagine man (or woman) creating something greater than themselves. Man/woman by nature are more self consumed with themselves, followed closely with needing to receive attention, and be served by others. In rare numbers, some manage great growth in developing or using their own power and abilities. How they choose to make use of these skills shows me where their abilities originate. The ones with limits, are the ones who desire to take God's place.A person who really believes his/herself to be their own god, are still believing in "a god".

From what I understand of yin yang principles, it's about opposites.  God and Jesus are not opposites. Lucifer, by name and reputation, is an angel. Angels are not birthed into flesh existence.

Good to see you again GhostRider. []

[motodoc43]

It has been fascinating reading through this thread. The common assumption seems to be that of traditional christianity- God is god, and created all; Lucifer=Satan, is a created being, and was cut off for wanting to be as god; Lucifer is evil, and a detractor of mankind; Jesus is god, or at least the son of god, and thus is something more than the other entities in the universe.
The other assumption I see here is- this is all allegory, symbolism, and none of it is reality.
My views differ from both of these drasticly, so I thought that I would post them.

1. God is god- the ineffable, chaos, outside of dimensionality
2. The god of the hebrews is a lesser storm god, son of El, consort of  Asherah, and is not the same as the ineffable God, or creator. The bible is fiction designed to create the notion that this son of El is the creator and supreme god. This entity has been very cruel and controling to mankind (just read the bible!)
3. Jesus (or actually Jesua ben Joseph), was a man, an avatar, a glimpse of the divinity that mankind can aspire to, yet we know nearly nothing about him in truth because first Paul, then Constantine, and then "the church", supressed and destroyed his true nature and created a fiction out of many older myths (such as Horus, Mithras)- designed to control the populace.
4. Lucifer is a god, an entity of a dimension beyond ours, who has brought light, knowledge, science, and love to mankind, and is our benefactor. He is not evil, he does not lie, and he is not "dark"- his very name signifies light! Lucifer is NOT SATAN!
And so in conclusion, Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers.

Rand

[GhostRider]

I have come across some disturbing information, and am still investigating it, but if it's true, wouldn't it stand to reason then that Satanists and Christians are but long lost brothers on the religious family tree?  What do our members who are christians and our other members who are satanists think of this?

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/brochures/LuciferJesus.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/jude3and4homepage/spiritbrothers.html

http://www.gcmi.net/thebrothers.html

http://www.bibleman.net/lucifer.htm