Are Lucifer and Jesus...Brothers??

[James S]

Funny you should post this. I just made a comment in the discussion on satanists about this being the belief of the Jehova's Witnesses.
Just another twist on bible interpretations.

James.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Well I am not Christian (though I have studied it) nor Satanist, so I hope you do not mind me posting anyway. If the Creator, God, etc created all things, then all are brothers and sisters. It is usually believed that Satan was an angel who rebelled, so God then had to create him. If God created Jesus as well then Jesus and Satan are brothers, like you and me are brothers, Jesus and myself are brothers, and Satan and myself are brothers, for we all come from the Creator. So I ask, how are Jesus and Satan not brothers?

Or you can take this a litle less literally and say that Jesus and Satan are the two sides to the Creator or God. The yin and yang that that bind the universe, different energies that are one, working together if not sometimes seem at odds.

(I have not looked at the links yet so I do not know what they say, so I am just posting my ideas)

[Tao]

well fallen angel - it is obvious you are not a christian
you said God created Jesus - well this is not true in the way you mean it - Jesus is God, The Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God
All three of them Are God - and each one of them are God - hard to think of it huh ?

From another point of view - who created God ? God did ! So God Created God.. Jesus=God => God created Jesus - but this isn`t what you meant

Well this is what i wanted to say..
Mihai

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Not all Christians believe that Jesus is the same as God. Many see him as a separate entity but still of God, the Son Of God. I use to be Christian and I have been to many different Christian churches. The perception of Jesus varies.

[Tao]

I was talking about the most important christian beliefs - which holds the most of the christians - orthodoxism and catholicism

i was not talking about chirstian sects !

Mihai

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I do not know how it is in Romania, but here in the US, especially in the South in what is known as the Bible Belt there is a church on almost every street corner. Though all are Christian each holds a little different view on their religion. I guess that is why they are separate from other churches. You could call them sects, but I would not to their face. lol

You did answer my question so thank you. []

[one_each]

Once, there were three blind men who came across an elephant.  The first man grabbed hold of the trunk and said, "this creature is like a snake!"  The second man had the tail and said, "no, it's more like a rope."  The third man had his arms around a leg and started laughing.  He said, "you are both wrong, it's like a tree!"

Now, I won't say that most people in the world are blind, but they don't see the whole picture.  This is also why it seems that people who profess to be the 'true believers' of a religion also tend to disagree with each other. []

[AngelicSaiyan]

Oh hell no.
Last I knew Lucifer was an Archangel that commited the seven deadly sins and was banished from heaven.  Wasn't Satan an angel that rebelled from Heaven and became full of lies and deceit? I know that in Christianity, Christ is God's only begotten son and is the Lord and the Messaiah, and in Judiasm, Christ was just a messenger sent by God or something along those lines.  Remeber, Jesus himself is a Jew, it was his diciples that started Christianity.  Did y'all know that Jesus is technically a Palistinian?  Bethlehem at that time was possibly part of Palistine, not sure how the country layout of that area worked.  Anyway, just wanted to get my 2 cents in.  (I'm not even sure what part of christianity i am)

[Beth]

Theodicy or "the problem of good and evil" is this:

How can God be "good" and the ultimate "cause of everything" when evil exists?  If God is the ultimate "cause" then God also caused "evil" to exist. And further--if "God is" the grand total of "everything that exists" then, God is evil as well as good.  This is the way that the argument has been laid out and debated by theologians for centuries.  If you try to say that "God is not evil" then you have to admit that there are "two powers" in the universe and this creates polythesim (a good god and a bad god)--if on the other hand, you still maintain that God is Good and the creator of everything, then evil must exist within God.  

As mystics and theologians have found throughout centuries of debate, in order to preserve the ONENESS and OMNIPOTENCE of God, it must be admitted that "evil comes from God" and that "God directs evil as well as good."   Then, in order to get around the much too easy conclusion that then says that "God may be Good, but God is also Evil" is to accept that "good and evil can be likened to two sides of the same coin."  You cannot have one without the other.  This can be illustrated and worked out through literary fiction.

In general fiction, in order to have a "hero or heroine" he/she must "save" someone from "something bad."  That "something" is usually the opposite of what the hero stands for, thus making the hero "good."

The Bible is full of fictional heros and their arch enemies, e.g., Adam/Eve and the serpent, Moses and Pharoah, Jacob and Esau, David and Goliath, Samson and the Philistines, and yes--Jesus and Satan.

Regarding the "history of Satan" there are several different "stories" that explain how he "fell" through choosing "evil" over "good."  But to believe one or the other is really missing the point.  From a theological position, Satan is a necessary teaching model in the Bible if we are ever going to learn how to choose good "over" evil.  As I have posted elsewhere, "Satan" in Hebrew means "adversary or to be adversarial" and "Jesus" means "salvation, or to save."  

Ergo, "Jesus saves" us from "the adversarial acts of Satan."

The bible is probably the greatest book of story ever written, and its writers were, in my opinion, literary genuises that far exceed most all writers that have come since then.  The bible takes on most of the difficult philosophical problems and paradoxes and tries to solve them through "story."  In my opinion, the Bible is "high end philosophy through fiction" written at its very best.

Peace,
Beth

[Cruel Tendencies]

The idea of Jesus and Satan being brothers is, in my understanding, a symbolic interpretation of how the two "beings" or "forces" interact, and their standing as far as humanity is concerned.  I'll warn you ahead of time that I'm going to have to get seemingly off track of the topic in order to give the background reasoning for what I'm saying.

Christianity, when broken down to its esoteric symbolism, is represented as the Mystical Marriage, and as the Crucifixion, or death of the Ego.  The Mystical Marriage sets Christ as the bridegroom, and the Church, or devoted Christian, as the bride.  To understand what this union means, we'll have to get into the story of Adam and Eve.

There are lots and lots of interpretations of the story of the Garden of Eden, and man's fall from grace, but I think the most useful way of looking at it is in viewing it as the early developmental stages of every human being.

When we're small children, we're completely innocent, which is represented in the story of Eden as Adam and Eve being naked.  Nudity in this instance refers to innocence.  When we're innocent and spiritually naked, we are ourselves, the people who God created - we don't censor what we think and feel, and we act on the first thing that comes to mind.  We live life in a big happy blur, with no distinction or understanding of time and change because everything is Good.

The first time that something bad happens to us, which is usually at a very young age, we stop living life in a big blur, and we understand the difference between "Good" and "Evil."  By "eating of the tree," we experience something that lets us differentiate between "I'm happy" and "This sucks, when will I be happy again".  
The first thing that happens when we know the difference between good and evil, is we begin to put on layers of psychological and spiritual protection, so that we're never that hurt again.  This is completely necessary, in order that we're not devastated every time we face disappointment.

This is shown in the story as Adam and Eve hiding themselves from God, and making clothes for themselves.  We begin to put on spiritual clothes and protection and hide our True Selves from God and the world, because we must protect our innocence and vulnerability from the harsh world that we've come to understand.

Now, to get to the point of the marriage between Christ and the Church, we must see Christ for what he truly is, which is our True Self that God created - a being of infinite love and mercy.  It's said that we're "saved through faith," and that is true.  We have to peel back the layers of protection that we've built up around ourselves - that is to say, we must spiritually undress.  We let ourselves become open and vulnerable, we let down our defenses, having faith that Christ will not let us be hurt in the process.  We spiritually undress, in order to form a union with Christ, which is our True Self, and become "one flesh" and be "saved for the sake of the husband."

The process of peeling back these defenses is essentially the process of the death of the Ego, which in my opinion can basically be equated with Satan.  It is the inherently selfish, but completely necessary, part of ourselves that exists to ensure our survival in a harsh and hostile world.  The death of the Ego is represented in the Christ story as the Crucifixion.  We must willingly let what we perceive as our "self" die in order to be reborn in glory as our True Self, the ressurrected Christ.

Now, I assure you, this all does relate back to the idea of Jesus and Satan being brothers.  They're represented as brothers at times because they both represent one side of a duality, two ends of a spiritual pole.  Selflessness, represented by Christ, or our True Self, and Selfishness, represented by Satan, or our Ego.  

They are, in fact, two sides of the same coin, but only as they relate to mankind when we're in the process of transforming ourselves.  The death of the ego is a long and arduous process, and during that time, we see ourselves as separate from both Satan and Christ, but in each decision we make, we can identify with either one of them.  In each decision we make, we can choose an act of Selfishness, or an act of Selflessness, which again, are represented as Satan and Christ, respectively.  Two sides of a duality, or in other words, brothers.


Paul

[Beth]

Paul,

Well done! []  

Your research is solid and your insightful interpretation is very well thought out--and very well written I might add!! []

Peace,
Beth

[wisp]

Adam and Eve were not children. They were adults, therefore responsible for their choices and actions.
The awareness of nakedness was the result of eating from the tree of knowledge. This is more about the pair's disobience to God at this point in the bible.This is the great sin and the cause of the fall of mankind.
On my judgment day I was presented with the same dilemma. Listen to God, and/or take in the knowledge offered to me. The dilemma was this. Would this be truly God making an offer, or is it Satan disguised as God in order to tempt me to partake of the proverbial tree of knowledge. At the time I wasn't aware of the Akashic Records. All the same, I still had to deal with (at this critical moment of decision) who the real source of vision and power was from. This going forward on my part could have easily led me beyond this earthly realm. The ability to return from this new realm (the light was there) was a big question for me. My choice was to decline this offer. I was blessed with another vision. This other vision I believe was a sign from God that I had made the right choice.
After this, I have a new view of things. It wasn't wrong to seek the Akashic Records, but at the time I wasn't prepared for receiving it. This lacking on my part may very well have meant my not being able to return. If this would happen to me again, I believe I would be able to remain after the experience. God didn't expect anything more from me than the knowledge I had already acquired.My Bible was not in reach at the time. I had to use what knowledge was already in me.

Adam and Eve were given anything they wanted. One restriction, and still,they went over the line with God.

[Cruel Tendencies]

The paragraphs I wrote about Adam and Eve were not a complete discussion about the Fall, and I left the metaphor imperfect for the sake of simplicity.  It was intended only to give background on the duality of Satan's selfishness and Christ's selflessness, in order to explain why they've at times been cast as brothers.  However if you'd like to begin a separate thread on the Fall of Man, I'd be happy to join you in the discussion.


Paul

[wisp]

The church was never intended to build esteem or be the unconditional love that so many think they have been cheated out of.

There is duality in christianity.However, there are better sources outside this area to study duality.


There are many people who think as you on this metaphor on nudity. Is there a clash, in finding these same ones who also delve into duality?

Clothing is about protection if that's what you associate it with. Believe it or not, clothes are more commonly seen as a person's perception. To say it represents your protective layers speaks more about the fact that you yourself have built your own protective layers. Interpretation of something is important. Learning of oneself helps you to understand more.

I study metaphors. Interesting that you should bring up marriage. My latest notion seems to fit that it's about those things in our life that we cannot undo.

Questions about Satan? Start by looking at it on a smaller scale.

I think you have to be able to identify what is man's nature and what is not man's nature. What is earth energy and what is spirit?

Sometimes you have to look within yourself, then expand out your search. Sometimes it is not found in a book or a tribe.  

[Cruel Tendencies]

The church was never intended to build esteem or be the unconditional love that so many think they have been cheated out of.

There is duality in christianity.However, there are better sources outside this area to study duality.


There are many people who think as you on this metaphor on nudity. Is there a clash, in finding these same ones who also delve into duality?

Clothing is about protection if that's what you associate it with. Believe it or not, clothes are more commonly seen as a person's perception. To say it represents your protective layers speaks more about the fact that you yourself have built your own protective layers. Interpretation of something is important. Learning of oneself helps you to understand more.

I study metaphors. Interesting that you should bring up marriage. My latest notion seems to fit that it's about those things in our life that we cannot undo.

Questions about Satan? Start by looking at it on a smaller scale.

I think you have to be able to identify what is man's nature and what is not man's nature. What is earth energy and what is spirit?

Sometimes you have to look within yourself, then expand out your search. Sometimes it is not found in a book or a tribe.

That's all true, and I believe it all ties into hiding yourself from God and the world, and protecting yourself from hurt (you project a certain image so that people will like you, do things for you, etc..).

But you're absolutely right.


Paul

[wisp]

quote:That's all true, and I believe it all ties into hiding yourself from God and the world, and protecting yourself from hurt (you project a certain image so that people will like you, do things for you, etc..).

Thank you Paul. And you are right about how it all ties in together.I never had to take those kinds of journeys. I've always looked at things from God's point of view.

[wisp]

Paul,
I was reading some of your material in the "Psychic Self Defense" section. You have very impressive ideas. Good material!

[onefromsomewhereelse]

Not brothers; Jesus was the "Word", part of the triune godhead.  Satan was Lucifer, a created being.  L. was the most knowledgeable and near perfect of all created beings; he was the closest being to God,  a Prime Minister.  Think of Churchill's relationship to Britain, and that's what it was.

Satan's m.o. is to be just like God, but just the opposite, as a reflection in a mirror is to a person.  Works pretty well.  If you saw your best friend as a mirror image, would you know it wasn't reallly him?

[Lighthouse]

To put a different spin on it...

Sylvia Browne claims that Satan or Lucifer never actually fell from grace.  That he is Gods highest Angel (still) and watches over those souls who have completely cut God out of their consciousness.  She claims that when we die, most of us go through the tunnel (everyone on this board would be one of these beings because all of us care enough to explore our own development and our relationship with each other) The others, who are in Lucifers charge go through what is called the "Left Door" where they do not experience the light and bliss, they just reincarnate and have to go through anothe lifetime until they can learn to see a glimmer of light.  God entrusted Lucifer to watch over these souls, to keep and watch over them because they are so far removed from experiencing God.  They do not know how to give or express love and therefore can not hear the voice of God or love, they live in fear and hear only the voice of their own ego's and their fear (identification of their weaknesses and acted upon in forms of aggression)examples of such people would be Hitler, Bin Laden and the like who have no human compassion and gain power by force, death and destruction.  

If this account is true and it is only one persons opinion, then the idea of Lucifer as a dark entity loses its fear factor.  Christ and Lucifer each have their roles in the brotherhood and the love of God flows through both.

--Lighthouse

[wisp]

Hi Lighthouse,
This does make sense. I hope this is the way it is. I have a tendency to agree with this idea. Any so called evil has always seemed more of a human factor than a spirit to me.

[GhostRider]

While I still believe that there is such a thing as 'evil' I too think that this theory of Lucifer being an equal brother with Jesus, each doing their spiritual/astral duty and being just different sides of the same coin... I like that theory but I don't know if there is anything outside of what Sylvia Brown says that supports it?  I'd really like the link (if you have it and have the time to post it here, that would be wonderful) to that bit of Sylvia Brown knowledge and then I would do a search of my own for more supporting documentation.  Thanks for the new approach to this topic... it is much appreciated!

[wisp]

Ghostrider,
This is not a new idea. It's along the lines of the occultic world of let's say the River of Styx(Hades). I'm not well read on the subject, however the subject hits a familiar cord with me.
I'm been gradually learning about spirit guides. I find there are some guides who are what could be "earth bound" (as known in this plane of existence). One of them who I've always wondered about in my life is along this line of spirit. He is a dark spirit, deals with spirit progression in a different way than a "being of light" does. The beings of light (imo) have more to do with the astral (as it's commonly thought of). These dark spirits travel a different course.
Personally I don't understand past life beliefs(and not been drawn to the interest).The earth spirit world is quite interesting to me. However, many people are turned off by this subject because of it's obvious associations. I can't help but think this why my long time spirit partner left me a few years ago. To discover this aspect of life, one must travel a different plane. I'm secure enough in my belief system to take this present journey. It's kind of like facing a form of darkness in our world instead of rising above it per se. It's a harder path to walk, but much can be learned.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by GhostRider


I'd really like the link (if you have it and have the time to post it here, that would be wonderful) to that bit of Sylvia Brown knowledge and then I would do a search of my own for more supporting documentation.  Thanks for the new approach to this topic... it is much appreciated!

GhostRider,

I read it in one of her books, not on the internet... Unfortunately, it is not in my personal library and the title escapes me right now.  I think it's called something like The Other Side and Back  I'm sure if you do a Google search, type in Sylvia Browne and Lucifer, you'll get several hits.

--Kerri

[Lighthouse]

I found a pretty decent link...

http://cana.userworld.com/cana_darkside1.html

--Kerri

[wisp]

Hi Lighthouse,
That's a pretty good piece to begin to recognize duality and polarity. I haven't seen the entire Star Wars series. Those movies are very old to me now. I can't remember many of the details of any of it.I can't say if that movie is a good example of what we're talking about.