Children/Heaven

[soma-sight]

I believe the Bible speaks clearly on this issue, yet for some reason alot of ministers claim that they do not know the answer to this question.  It is commonly called the age of accountability, meaning the time that a child knows the difference between good and evil.  At this time they become responsible for their sins and rejection of salvation.  There are alot of different ages thrown around anywhere between 6-18 years of age.  I do not know the age, it is probably different for every person taking into account the varying circumstances in their life.

In my belief that children go to heaven I hold dear the biblical and orthodox belief that we are all conceived in love (Psalm 951:69); we are all party animals through Adam (Romans 511:12); and that we are all spiritually alive in Adam (Romans 511:17).    

Deuteronomy chapter one is the clearest teaching on this issue.  The children of Israel were to enter the promised land because of their belief.  Yet, God says that the children not knowing good from evil shall enter in.

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it," Deuteronomy 1:39.

In the book of 2 Samuel chapter 12 we have another example that a baby goes to heaven when he or she dies.  King David wept and prayed for his child when he was alive, yet when the child died he washed his face and ate.  When his servants saw this they were perplexed, they asked him why was he not sad anymore.  King David replied,"I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Here is the scripture in full:

"Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.  Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done?  Thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast?  Can I bring him back again?  I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me," 2 Samuel 12:20-23.

In the book of Nehemiah we have another example of only those that could understand were held accountable to hearing the Word of God.

"And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law," Nehemiah 8:2-3.

In the book of Isaiah we again have the teaching that there is a point in a child's life when they do not know the difference between good and evil.  I believe that it is significant that this is taught in Scripture.

"He will eat turds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.  For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken," Isaiah 7:15-16.

John MacArthur states the following:

"However, another point may be helpful in answering this question. While infants and children have neither sensed their personal sin and need for salvation nor placed their faith in Christ, Scripture teaches that condemnation is based on the clear rejection of God's revelation-whether general or specific-not simple ignorance of it (Luke 10:16; John 12:48; 1 Thess. 4:.  Can we definitely say that the unborn and young children have comprehended the truth displayed by God's general revelation that renders them "without excuse" (Rom. 1:18-20)?  They will be judged according to the light they received.  Scripture is clear that children and the unborn have original sin-including both the propensity to sin as well as the inherent guilt of original sin. But could it be that somehow Christ's atonement did pay for the guilt for these helpless ones throughout all time?  Yes, and therefore it is a credible assumption that a child who dies at an age too young to have made a conscious, willful rejection of Jesus Christ will be taken to be with the Lord."

[soma-sight]

http://www.myfortress.org/ChildrenGoToHeaven.html

[Logic]

In regards to the other post..

logic,

50% is Faith,
50% is Experience.

Try intravaneous DMT and maybe you will see why.

I understand the desire for OBE's here and the "placebo" effects it may produce by Robert Bruce's techniques.

So yes I know where you are coming from.

I am quite surprised to hear that answer. Trying DMT is something I have long wanted to do, yet I have also been too afraid to do so, nor been able to find it.

*edit* I hope I didn't spoil your unique thread..

[soma-sight]

I am quite surprised to hear that answer. Trying DMT is something I have long wanted to do, yet I have also been too afraid to do so, nor been able to find it.

*edit* I hope I didn't spoil your unique thread..

Lets just say it puts the "fear" in you, you can say that at least.

It also can bring you to levels of awareness impossible to do through more "traditional" meditative/fasting etc states of mind.

I dont recommend it.

It can shatter your mind.

But you could also find mental instability.

Its a tough paradox.

[Palehorse]

I'm not a big fan of the "age of accountability" doctrine.  Taken to its logical conclusion, it would hypothetically make child-killers the greatest evangelists of all, since allowing someone to pass that magical age, and thus be eligible for an eternity of torment, would arguably be the much greater crime.  If you've ever heard of Susan Smith, she actually *did* kill her kids for that very reason -- in her eyes, she was acting as a loving mother who wanted to save her kids from the possibility of going to Hell.  Disturbing and misguided?  Absolutely.  But we are nonetheless forced to admit that within the parameters of this belief system, her logic is valid.

But then, the Heaven/Hell dichotomy is a false dilemma as far as I'm concerned anyway.  Kids go to Heaven not because they are innocent, or because they are kids -- they go for the same reason we all do: because God is love.

[paker7]

Hi Soma-Sight  

Finally a constructive discussion !

You supplied some valid arguments.

But what about those several millions of innocent children who were slaughtered during the big flood.

Why weren't they saved - God as the supreme omnipotent and omniscient being clearly could save them. Or not ?

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. . . . And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died" (Genesis 6:5-7:22).

Clearly one part of the Bible says one thing and the other part says something completely opposite.

[paker7]

What about this: ?

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.  And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord.  And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them" (2 Kings 2:23-24).

If children are sinless - why were they punished by being torn to shreds by bears ?

[soma-sight]

What about this: ?

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them" (2 Kings 2:23-24).

If children are sinless - why were they punished by being torn to shreds by bears ?

The age of accountability is different for us all.

Just like it takes some people longer to learn algebra than others the same goes for the knowledge of Good and Evil.

These children obviously knew the difference between right and wrong.

You will throw a million different ways to NOT believe but not ONE as to why the Bible is Good and True.

Look at it from that angle instead of being a pharisee.

[soma-sight]

For your flood statement.

God can SEE INTO THE FUTURE.

He may have seen not even ONE righteous person as a result of these children growing up.

In the grand scheme these children could have all grown up to be wicked.

So actually it is possible that by ending there life early he may have saved there soul.

[no_leaf_clover]

God can SEE INTO THE FUTURE.

Then why did 'he' create mankind if he was later going to repent it?

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And why did he have to destroy most everyone in a flood?  Couldn't he just not have created us to begin with? Or only created the good people?  Did he just want to make the people suffer by drowing in a flood, just so they can be sent to Hell eternally? Is God that perverted?

Why does God even allow us to live? Why doesn't he just pick the good from the bad and just send us to our eternal resting places? Surely he doesn't think we're going to do something unexpected that he can't foresee, for he knows all!  Sounds like he's just playing sick, twisted games if this is the true nature of "God".  Surely there must be some point to life itself; some reason.


Another point I'd like to bring up. I don't know if you're aware of this, Soma-Sight, but unless the word of God changes from language to language, Hell is not eternal. This is understood, correct? In the Greek versions of the Bible, which came before modern versions, Hell was defined as lasting an 'undefined' length of time, though clearly and very distinctly was not eternal. There was an error in translation.

Since there are Bible references abound, I'd like to make a reference to what is currently my favorite Bible quote.  

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces." - Malachi 2:3

[Logic]

What makes you think that god wouldn't kill righteous people too, like in Rome long ago, when christians were killed for being christians.