Christian Mystisism ,,,today!!

[Rob]

Bravo!!

Hey I should try that, tell a minister I have had prophetic dreams, see what happens.....hmmm....could be fun! Might have to try it in a skint church though, just to be safe [B)][]

But "This seem to strongly indicate the present day as verses 30 and 31 claims this to be the end time, or the last days as they are also called."

Why do you say that??? I dont know of any non-mystically inclined people who prophesy, but then again, then could just ignore it. Probably do, infact (muppits....)

Rob

[Mustardseed]

Didnt understand your question. What I meant was that Joel prophesied this to happen in the end of days the end time. Most Bible scholars agree that is our time. Thus the qoute would be true for us today. Does that make it more clear.

[Narrow Path]

Experiences of the Holy Spirit are not something the Church tries to put down Mustard. However when the SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE takes presendance over the OBJECTIVE STANDARD OF THE WORD than you will find that it is a dangerous path to follow.

Like I have said before, I am all for the AP if you are grounded in the Truth of the Word and are striving for what God's wants for you, not what you want for you.

I have found a lot of meaningful expressions of the Power of the Word through "inner seeking" but I find that it is a circular noose without searching for something in particular. Trying to find Christ while in the AP experience has rich Blessings indeed!!

Are you a Pentacostal Mustard?

[Mustardseed]

[Experiences of the Holy Spirit are not something the Church tries to put down Mustard. However when the SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE takes presendance over the OBJECTIVE STANDARD OF THE WORD than you will find that it is a dangerous path to follow.]

Well I never said it did I have never accepted anything that could not be proven in the Bible. That is my guide and yard stick, but as you see from your reply NP Church folks most definately get imidiately suspicious as soon as someone appears to be hearing from God. The warning signs come op and the red lights start blinking.Its is your last sentence that is interesting. The one about a dangerous path to follow. There is danger connected with hearing from God there is fear of being a false prophet. So most folks remain quiet. Cause no one wanna take a chance. It is like india where having a job is a small miracle. Becourse everyone is so afraid of making a mistake and get fired noone dares to make a desision appearing to be against the grain, so to speak and nothing get done the whole country is settled into this wierd paralysing spirit and change rarely happends.

[Like I have said before, I am all for the AP if you are grounded in the Truth of the Word and are striving for what God's wants for you, not what you want for you.]

Yes I did notice you said that and I agree that that is very very important. It is entirely possible to be fooled if there is nothing to meassure ones experiences by.

[I have found a lot of meaningful expressions of the Power of the Word through "inner seeking" ]

I have found very very little. But then again I realised that long ago and have not been a church goer as you have, so maybe there are churches with some life.I never saw them. Christians is a different thing though lots of them have the life of God, but many are frustrated as they do not see it in Church and it is common for folks like these to move churches often.

[Are you a Pentacostal Mustard?}

In the Church way of understanding this I am not. However I do have the gift of tounges and prophesy, so in a way maybe I am.

Regards Mustardseed

How about you

[Narrow Path]

I consider myself A Seventh Day Christian. I am currently reading up on the prophet E.G. White and learning more about Adventism.

[Gandalf]

Didnt understand your question. What I meant was that Joel prophesied this to happen in the end of days the end time. Most Bible scholars agree that is our time
_-------------------------

Yeah right, I won't hold my breath. throughout history it is ALWAYS the end of the world!
Is there REALLY more war etc now than in the past? If you check your history, WORLD history, you'll find that there isnt.
The only difference is now the weapons are bigger, but I believe we passed the biggest test (the nuke test) in the 20th century, which was IMO the biggest test humanity has had to suffer, never mind the tiny (in comparison) terrorist threat that the american and british media hype on a constant basis. Outside of the US most countries have lived with various forms of terrorism for many years, but because it has finaly happend in the US we are all meant to think it is the end of the world 'according to bible scholars'... Grow up guys!

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Hi Douglas
I will answer you shortly with stats. In the mean time please refrain from telling me to grow up. That is very condecending and unkind. I am grown up Douglas and you better take me serious. Ok. I have learned a lot lately about not answering evil for evil bad with bad so, take care,
Rehards Mustardseed
Ps Thanks Beth[]

[Rob]

Hey!!

Yes, what I was really looking for was the evidence which shows that we are in end times - ie are more people really prophesising? (sp...?). Personally, I have collected more than enough (from within and without), but I am ALWAYS on the look out for more!!
And Bible scholars believing we are in end times - also very interesting, I've seen hints that would indicate that but never heard it as clearly before. When I was in the Caribbean I found it very interesting that the Christian radio there was not hiding their beliefs on this, they were openly telling and discussing that we are in end times - they were so sure! And yet over here, in the West, no such talk around the standard types, and if you mention it you are labelled a lunatic (lol those people crack me up...). It seems there is a screen between these ideas and the average man - I guess its called "the media" aye....

cheers

Rob

[Gandalf]

Apologies Mustardseed, I realise I was talking a bit harshly back there!

Inguma_
The reason you don't see the same obsession with end time scenarios in Europe is that over here, there is a slighlty more rational streak and christian apocalyptic mythology is generally seen as just that.. mythology. Also christianity is seen in more general terms as just one of many belief systems alongside other philosophies.

However, in the US (although I realise this is somewhat of a generalisation), most people are only ever exposed to one belief system - christianity. Furthermore, most (religious) people in the US accept everything in the bible as fact, written in stone.
For this reason you will find many who fully accept the concept of 'end time scenarios' as fact.
In the US apocaliptic end time scenarios are not myth, it WILL happen!
Strange but true.
A result of this trend is that every succeeding generation believes that it is 'the end time', with such beliefs common during the wars and before.

Regards,
Douglas

[Narrow Path]

11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.


Many Christians beleive that the FIRST beast was ancient Rome. The SECOND beast that spake like a Dragon is the United States. Those that worship the New Rome will receive the mark of the beast. Many beleive that we are in end time due to the fact that the Pope has been seen blessing those of the pagan faith and the rise of powerful unions in Europe. We expect the Roman power to grow soon and a New World Order to take effect. If this happens than it is a sure bet that we are in the end times.

The problem is not China but atheistic unions in Europe that will influence the majority of unbelieving nations to worship the beast.

1. Tearing down the Ten Commandments.
2. Radical hate of Christians by fundamentalist Islam.
3. Much talk of a "national ID" card and a "New World Order".
4. Disregard of rights of privacy in favor of "security" standards.
5. ACLU and atheists taking over the law.
6. Merge of spiritualism (new agers) and modern Christianity.

All of these signs are the proof of the end times for SOME CHristians.

[Mustardseed]

No problem I know you are a nice guy [] or you wouldn't be here. Well I dont know if I will agree with you on that thing about Europe. I just returned from 3 months in Europe actually I am European, but the problem there appears more to be a lacking need for and desire for a spiritual dimention  in the day to day life. Many are talking about the destruction of the world but seeing that the end time is really a religious idea they dont kno what to call it. They are however just as frustrated fearful and dissatisfied with how the world is going as folks in the USA.

NP well I would say that your intrepretation is not what most folks agree on. It is actually quite a bit more complicated than that. Some Evangelicals in the USA have resently started to voice this or a similar intrepretation but it does not seem to agree with what most scholars around the world see. I would be glad to get into it as it is actually my speciality and life work but I am a bit hesitant as it is a bit controversial and especially Americans seem to be very doctrinally brittle. I would hate to have another heavy unedifying discussion surface. How about if I talk to Beth and ask if a special thread is ok. What do you think. Bible prophesy is very exieting and quiote mindblowing. Beth what do you think?
Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Hey there!

Well, apocalypticism was already a thread on my to do list!![8D]

But since the discussion has already started, and this actually deviates from Christian Mysticism proper, then I will set one up right away!![]

If anyone wants to re-post what they have written into the new thread, please do!

Peace,
Beth

[Gandalf]

Many Christians beleive that the FIRST beast was ancient Rome. The the rise of powerful unions in Europe. We expect the Roman power to grow soon and a New World Order to take effect. If this happens than it is a sure bet that we are in the end times.

--------------------------------------

Well, as a Roman historian myself I have to take offence at that one!
In reality, the christian persecutions, although fact, have been WAY over exagerated by later writers, as has the roman amoralism/orgies stories.
It annoys me when christians go on about the evil empire, when in reality, they should be thanking the roman empire as it was they who gave everyone christianity. Christianity as we know it is a Roman construct. Without it, christianity would not exist.
As a way of getting round this problem in the past, christian writers often used to lavish praise on 'good' christian roman emperors while writing about the evils of the 'heathen' emperors. This kind of progaganda is discredited among modern historian of course, but has nevertheless coloured the general view of the Roman world among the general public.

Douglas

PS as for the new Europe... I love it! Role on the Euro!

[RJA]

Here is a link to an excellent treatise (for lack of a better word) on Christian mysticism (by Lawrence Richardson.  It's about a hundred pages and I found it easiest to print it out and read it over time.

http://www.chrmysticaloutreach.com

[RJA]

and regarding The Revelation, if there's one thing I've learned in the last 25 years it's that author's sell a ton of books by speculating on what it all means and how it relates to things happening in the world today.  And so far, they've all been wrong and have "revised" their interpretation as events change.  For a good laugh, read "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey.  In the 70s it seemed so obvious that the world would end any time, but the book seems ridiculous now (I read it a year or so again).

I believe that many Christians desperately want to believe that we are living in the end times, because of a few underlying psychological effects:

1) on some level we resent what we perceive as "immorality" in the world when we're doing our best to be good.  And we want God to come and give us our reward and make those immoral sinners sorry for what they've done and for laughing at us. (We secretly resent being told to love our enemies, so we pretend to love all people, but secretly want God to punish them and congratulate us on our moral steadfastness.)

2) We want an "easy way out".  We understand that Jesus was advocating a radical inner spiritual transformation and yet we don't see it happening in our lives, but rather we see ourselves continually seduced by material things and the worries of the world. So, rather than having to go down the difficult path of actively and passionately seeking that inner transformation via the work of the Holy Spirit, we want Jesus to sweep down, take us up to Heaven and then tap us on the head with a magic wand that instantly accomplishes that work that we avoid here.

3) Or, because all people secretly like to feel persecuted, we like to fantasize about the ultimate persecution - the post-trib rapture in which we moral upstanding Christians must unjustly go through a terrible time of unfair tribulation before we finally get to see our evil persecutors get what's coming to them.

Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting all Christians harbor these thoughts or that they are as blatant as I've made them out to be, but I know personally that although I seem to love all people and think right toward them, the Holy Spirit is constantly revealing to me the subtle ways in which my inner-thoughts deviate from God's will.

Those points made, I will state my suspicion that there are no "end times" and that John's vision is really a symbolic representation of the inner battle and transformation that must occur in each of our souls on the path to perfection. John's vision doesn't have to do with worldly events at all or with the second coming of Christ into the world, per se.  But rather that it is a symbolic representation of the internal spiritual transformation that each individual soul must go through on the path to perfection - i.e. the 2nd coming of Christ is the attainment of perfect Christ-likeness in each of us.

Thus, we need not look outside of ourselves to world affairs or for a savior to magically appear.  Jesus told us the Kingdom of Heaven is within us and not to be tricked when people say, "Look, he's over there!".  When we focus our attention on people, places and events outside of us we miss the point.  The world will go on and on and on until it can't anymore - that has nothing to do with our spirituality.  Our spiritual battle is waged inside of us and that's where our spiritual focus needs to be.

Over and over again I've found that when I complain about others' behavior or external circumstances, what I am really doing is avoiding my internal spiritual responsibility for allowing the Holy Spirit to do its work in me.

Anyway, - that's my .02 regarding The Revelation (sorry for being off topic). []

[Mustardseed]

Very thoughtprovoking and interesting post. I will have to agree with you a long long way. I will have to think about it
Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

I find that the churches are neglecting to teach mystisism. Not in the way of Macig but stuf like dream intrepretation, prophesy, etc It says in Joel 2:28

"And it shall come to pass ....that I will pour out MY SPIRIT on ALL FLESH. Your sons and daughters shall prophesy your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions"

This seem to strongly indicate the present day as verses 30 and 31 claims this to be the end time, or the last days as they are also called.

Well then how about it. If one stood up in Church and prophesied they would beat you to death with a sock full of nickels from the collection plate. The Churches are afraid of people who can think for themselves and horrified of people who hear from God. They want to be the channel and the last word. Thus the flight from the churches the frustration and the hurt feelings. They in turn condemn all others who shows signs of spiritual gifts shout heresy from the rooftops and stamp out Spirituality.  But Gods spirit cannot be surpressed and it surfaces in forums like this and hearts like ours. He is way bigger than we imagine. Way bigger, and I dont think he even has a beard[]
Regards Mustardseed