Does God lie?

[badgerbug89]

I was reading the old testament today and thought of a discussion we had in my philosophy class about the creation story and how it appears that God lies while evil (the snake tells the truth).

Genesis 2:16 "And the lord God commanded the man saying 'You may surly eat of every tree of the garden but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you shall surly die.'"

Genesis 3:4 "But the serpent said to the woman 'You will not surly die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Gensis 3:7 "Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked."

Genesis 3:22 "then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-' therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken."

It comes across in these passages like God was lying to his creation in order to keep control over it, so that it would not become all-knowing and immortal like him. I'm not sure what to think about it. What do you guys think?

[Mustardseed]

The particular part in Genesis is thought to refer to the immortality man had before the fall. Whether one believes it to be literal or not. Adam and Eve  were created immortal, but after the fall they brought on themselves the fruit of sin which refers to sickness and consequent death etc. "the apple" and listening to the Devil, (worldly wisdom ?) changed their status you might say and man has been dying ever since as a result.

I am only referring you to the theological thought behind the doctrine, so you need not tell me you disagree or disbelieve, it is just so you know the theory by which some Christians interpret these verses

Regards Mustardseed

[badgerbug89]

Thanks mustardseed. That makes sense. 

[Sharpe]

That's bull, serpents don't talk.

[Mez]

i've come to recognize that the bible has SOME great spiritual truths... but about 90% is just waffle. DONT take the bible too seriously at all.

[Hisoka]

i've come to recognize that the bible has SOME great spiritual truths... but about 90% is just waffle. DONT take the bible too seriously at all.

Almost all of its stories are symbolical... Apparently with some ''true'' accounts, such as the life of Jesus etc. But really, I can't understand how anyone could take the genesis story seriously, or rather: literally. That there are people who believe we were ''created'' some 6000 years ago or something is beyond me, but oh well...

But to answer the question: yes he lies, and is very barbaric. He's also a hypocrite and a sadist.

[DH]

Almost all of its stories are symbolical... Apparently with some ''true'' accounts, such as the life of Jesus etc. But really, I can't understand how anyone could take the genesis story seriously, or rather: literally. That there are people who believe we were ''created'' some 6000 years ago or something is beyond me, but oh well...

The Hebrews who wrote Genesis were great storytellers who used parables and metaphors to express truth.  Later the Jewish rabbis (including Jesus) continued the use of parables and stories to express truth.  It amazes me how many people equate literalism with truth and metaphor with error.  Was there really a good Samaritan in Jesus' Parable of the Good Samaritan?  If there wasn't, did Jesus lie -- or is the real question here (as in Genesis) what is the point of the story?  The ancient Hebrews didn't seem to be into literalism.  Why else would they place two creation stories with conflicting details back to back in Genesis 1 & 2?  The literal details of creation were not the emphasis of the stories, which were written centuries apart.  In Genesis 2, for example, Adam and Eve are used to show that humans are created for companionship and marriage is grounded in God's plan for creation.  When people start building whole theological doctrines out of literal details in Genesis 2 (men are superior to women because Eve was created second out of Adam), they seem to be going way behind what the authors had in mind when they told  a good story to make a single point.

[sk8chik]

yes [god] lies, and is very barbaric. He's also a hypocrite and a sadist.

rofl. 

The way I look at it, its not straightforward that some stories are metaphorical and some are literal. The old testament was written with very deep hidden meaning; rabbis study the significance of the arrangement of every letter in it. So some stories might be literally based but the way they are recounted is in a manner to analogously express something, and some portions may be purely metaphorical. There's never a part that's just storytelling for the sake of telling a story; then it would just be a history book.

[DH]

rofl. 
The way I look at it, its not straightforward that some stories are metaphorical and some are literal. The old testament was written with very deep hidden meaning; rabbis study the significance of the arrangement of every letter in it. So some stories might be literally based but the way they are recounted is in a manner to analogously express something, and some portions may be purely metaphorical. There's never a part that's just storytelling for the sake of telling a story; then it would just be a history book.

Exactly.  Anytime the ancients used a story it was always to make a point.  And it's nearly impossible to determine what was purely  literal and what was purely metaphorical.  I'm sure that literal facts were often used metaphorically.

[Sharpe]

It doesn't matter, whatever was good for them in their time isn't usefull for us.
Because the society has changed over 2000 years and so have most of the morals, instead the obvious ones.
So why don't we stop taking the book so seriously, it's just a gosh darn piece of paper.

[Mez]

In regards to the bible i tottaly agree. If you examine some of the morals in the bible they are extremeley questionable by anyones standards anyway! Im not speaking about the 10 commandments im speaking of some of the attrocious acts comitted in some stories of the bible which god himself is in some way responsible for...

[Sharpe]

Yes, he sadisticly bullies people to teach them stuff.

[DH]

It doesn't matter, whatever was good for them in their time isn't usefull for us.

Oh really?  "Love your neighbor as yourself " (Leviticus 19:18)  isn't a useful truth in our day?

[sk8chik]

The morals are still good, just the context within which they operate and therefore the manner in which they're applied have changed drastically.

[DH]

The morals are still good, just the context within which they operate and therefore the manner in which they're applied have changed drastically.

True. 

Another thing that people who torch the Bible don't understand is that the Bible is a library of books written over several centuries by people who had differing understandings of God.  The vengeful jealous tribal deity Yahweh found in the early strands of the OT is a far cry from the God later revealed by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus and Paul.  A book by retired Episcopal Bishop John S. Spong called The Sins of the Bible has some good stuff on this. 

Like other sacred writings, you have to understand the context in which the various books were written and the religious presuppositions the writers had.  You can lose a lot of wisdom and truth by throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Sharpe]

Hi DH.
I was mentioning that some stories in the bible just aren't relevant anymore, you could make them metaphors to use in our time, but you have to understand that in their time no-one was having sex with eachother without getting married first and there are a few more things like that which have drasticly changed.

But yes you are right, some writings do point out the obvious.

[malganis]

you have to understand that in their time no-one was having sex with eachother without getting married first

I'm really interested how do you know this.

[Sharpe]

Ok scratch that.
"you have to understand that in their time no-one was supposed to be having sex with eachother without getting married first"

[DH]

Ok scratch that.
"you have to understand that in their time no-one was supposed to be having sex with eachother without getting married first"

I get your drift.

[sk8chik]

I had a really amazing dream last night and woke up in the middle of the night and said "I'm definitely goign to remember this in the morning, no need to write it down." Guess what? I don't effing remember it and that makes me angry!

[DH]

I've learned the hard way never to say "no need to write it down"!   

[xblimeyx]

Regarding to the genesis...i found interesting the fact, that people fell from heaven after knowing the difference of wrong from right...Its in those words i found the one thing about the story that i really like. Because when you look at it in the opposite direction, to "get back in heaven" we must be free of "knowing the difference between wrong from right", but not in a way of being blind and not knowing the difference,but to go to a higher level of understanding where we can with a holistic view realize the fact, like the teaching of buddhism, that there is no wrong or right, that it is merely a concept bound to our point of view.

Sorry if the spelling or grammar are bad.

[Awakened_Mind]

I couldn't see why god would bother lying. How are we supposed to punish him? He can do what he wants. I'd say the institutions dedicated to God often lie. Not God himself.

-AM

[DH]

I couldn't see why god would bother lying. How are we supposed to punish him? He can do what he wants. I'd say the institutions dedicated to God often lie. Not God himself.

-AM

Couldn't agree more!

[Sharpe]

I say there is no god, just the institutions.