Does God/Jesus Exist?

The AlphaOmega · November 30, 2003, 16:05:43

Nagual... sorry if you feel you are being attacked. That is certainly not MY intentions. When it comes to believing or not believing in something, ESPECIALLY God, people take can it personal when their beliefs in general are critisized. I did not, but I also didn't mean to degrade what you were saying either. My appologies. In fact I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, only some. This is probably because I give credit for EVERYTHING to God. But I don't want to come off as closed minded. The big bang could have happened from Gods will. "Let there be light, and there was light". Let there be a universe, and there was a universe. Makes sense to me. And evolution could also be Gods will. I mean, we know for a fact that dinosaurs existed... but the bible never talks about them in the creation of the world. There are many questions that we may never answer. I know I don't have the answers, so I am sorry if you interpreted what I was saying as "I am right and you are wrong". That wasn't what I was trying to do.

xander · November 30, 2003, 16:50:02

If we consider God's ability to create something from nothing as magic, we must remember the most powerful magic is that which takes place naturally.

Just as one enjoys watching the process of growth, so does god enjoy watching his creation grow. True he may guide it to certain things but ultimately he allows the natural process to occur.

Xander

quote:
Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

Nagual... sorry if you feel you are being attacked. That is certainly not MY intentions. When it comes to believing or not believing in something, ESPECIALLY God, people take can it personal when their beliefs in general are critisized. I did not, but I also didn't mean to degrade what you were saying either. My appologies. In fact I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, only some. This is probably because I give credit for EVERYTHING to God. But I don't want to come off as closed minded. The big bang could have happened from Gods will. "Let there be light, and there was light". Let there be a universe, and there was a universe. Makes sense to me. And evolution could also be Gods will. I mean, we know for a fact that dinosaurs existed... but the bible never talks about them in the creation of the world. There are many questions that we may never answer. I know I don't have the answers, so I am sorry if you interpreted what I was saying as "I am right and you are wrong". That wasn't what I was trying to do.

The AlphaOmega · November 30, 2003, 17:53:40

Ok... but why did you post my whole reply? How does it apply to what you wrote?

xander · November 30, 2003, 18:35:48

quote:
Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

Ok... but why did you post my whole reply? How does it apply to what you wrote?

LOL! Think about[8D]

Xander

The AlphaOmega · November 30, 2003, 20:26:33

Ah mind games! Again, you posted my entire reply. Instead, try answering my question with your OWN reply. Saves time and me a headache [

]

xander · November 30, 2003, 21:00:16

quote:
Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

Ah mind games! Again, you posted my entire reply. Instead, try answering my question with your OWN reply. Saves time and me a headache []

NO! not mind games! Let me simplify for you. Assuming GOD is in charge of the universe, he is thus in charge of nature. Nature follows certain laws of god. One of those being that things change according to those laws, and #2. those changes take time, thus are not instantaneous. While there are at times spontaneous instananeous healings and such, they are not the norm but the exception.

evolution speaks of the norm...Gods changes during a process of change through time.

do....you....understand?

Xander

The AlphaOmega · December 01, 2003, 00:05:12

Yes I understand now, thanks for the clerification!

Nagual · December 01, 2003, 01:28:07

quote:
Nagual... sorry if you feel you are being attacked. That is certainly not MY intentions.

Thanks AlphaOmega, and do not worry; I don't really feel attacked. Hum... maybe a little frustrated... [

]

In fact, I begin to wonder if I should not just skip the religious forums (I used to read all posts in all forums) given that I am agnostic... I might be a little provocative.

Good luck, and keep your mind and eyes open! [|)]

The AlphaOmega · December 01, 2003, 03:45:25

I have found that religion is the most difficult of discussions because it is the most contraversial. I have my beliefs, and I simply cannot comprehend going against them. What I believe makes up my whole existence. But it is not my belief to tell others they are wrong, or to make others feel that I am against them. On that note, this will be the last reply on this particular topic that I engage in. I feel it's gotten off course, and like yourself, I don't think I've made any progress. I'll probably read still read it, but it's just too personal and broad a topic to make any kind of an impact. However Nagual, I did listen to what you had to say with an open mind, and agree with much of it, so keep fighting the good fight[8D]!!!!!

onefromsomewhereelse · December 07, 2003, 18:33:18

Yes. Also, it seems that evolutionists can't comprehend the Lord creating things not new.....for example, the Lord could create a rock 30 milliion years old; that doesn't mean it was in existence for 30 million years.

xander · December 07, 2003, 18:54:34

quote:
Originally posted by onefromsomewhereelse

Yes. Also, it seems that evolutionists can't comprehend the Lord creating things not new.....for example, the Lord could create a rock 30 milliion years old; that doesn't mean it was in existence for 30 million years.

What would the purpose be for her to do that? The only reason I can see why that would occur is a deliberate attempt at deceit, thus making your god one of extremely poor character and thus anything that it would say (the bible) would be dubious at best.

Xander

onefromsomewhereelse · December 10, 2003, 20:42:44

God is neither male or female, but spirit; however, English usage dictates this term to be "he" and not "her".

God could have created things "aged" for many reasons. One is, because He wanted to. Another, to have immediate access to things which by His natural laws take otherwise many years to form, such as geologic matter. Wouldn't want to put those dinosaurs on a molten planet....might burn their feet!

I really don't think God cared if He fooled anyone, although He seems to have accomplished this anyway.

shedt · December 13, 2003, 17:45:54

quote:
Originally posted by eleusis2

When people ask "Does God exist?", what God are they referring to. In the Christian church, the image of God as the Father conjures up a picture of an old man with a beard sitting up in heaven taking note of humankinds every mistake. If thats how you define God then my opinion is no, he does not exist.

On a different level though, something has to be responsible for all of existence. Every religion, every philosophy (science included) tries to define one entity, one truth from which all else was created, and its existence is taken for granted even if we do not truly understand its nature. Thats what I define as God.

Of course, this is all just my opinion and open to criticism. No two people can have exactly the same views on something so undefineable.

--Eleusis

for me "god" is everything. But everything is (as far as i can tell)beyond what i can comprehend. things like time and different levels of different things come into play.

hmmm

Tony M. · January 06, 2004, 17:19:58

I don't like the term "God". It makes me think of a manlike being. This is because of my years of indoctrination. "God" makes me think of the God of the bible and I don't like the bible and I don't like christianity (or the islam).

I do believe in something divine. A spark within ourselves that is life and is part of something bigger.

lifebreath · January 06, 2004, 20:17:12

In lieu of spending a bunch of time typing, I'm copying my post from another thread that gives just a few of my thoughts ...

Fundamental to my belief (and Christianity) is the Incarnation - that is, that the transcendent Unknowable God was incarnated in space/time, our material world, as man, first in a special way in the person of Jesus, and more generally, in every human. It speaks to the mystery of our existance, which involves an intimate connection with the God who is beyond all knowlege, names and images, yet Who is at the same time, completely present at the core of all that exists, including each of us.

The Gospel of John, for example, starts by referring to the Logos and saying that this Logos became flesh (incarnated) in the person of Jesus. The Logos, at the time of the writing of the Gospels, would have been a well-understood Greek philosophical concept that referred to the power, pattern, order and intelligence that pervades and underlies the universe,through which created things came to be and by which they are sustained in their existence. Logos, for example, is where our word "logic" is derived from. Logos, in the Gospels is usually translated as "Word," implying the Creative Word continually issuing forth from God, creating and sustaining all things.

John, then, takes this concept and says it is embodied, enfleshed and revealed to us in the person of Jesus - that Jesus is the "Word" or manifestation of the unseen, unknoweable God. It is indeed a paradox, in that one the one hand, we say (just as the Cabalist does) that God is beyond all knowlege and names (thus the Jews' prosciption against pronouncing God's "name" or making "graven images" in that all names and images are incomplete with respect to who or what God is), yet God is known through his Word, which reveals that which is hidden.

Now John goes on to say that this Logos is the very thing that gives light to every person, i.e., that while the Logos is incarnated in a unique revealatory way in Jesus, that same reality of union of God and Man is present in every person - a universal or "catholic" truth. So, in some way, we are all part of this eternally dynamic Word that continually issues forth from God.

Of course, attempting to define this exactly has been the core of thousands, probably millions of debates! How can we say on the one hand that God has always existed and is totally "apart from," yet totally "united to" what He has created?!? (Simultaneously transcendant and immanant.)

One the one hand, we can take the pantheistic (or closely related monistic) approach where God and the Universe are equated - all is ONE. Pantheism, then, is reductionist in that there is no room for God as anything other than the sum of the parts. Pantheism is really abstracted atheism where "god" is impersonal force. Pantheism is the attempt to bring unity into the diversity of things, but at the cost of reducing God to fit into our limited minds.

On the other hand, we can go the dualistic route - a sharp division between spirit and matter, God and Man. Never shall the twain meet! This gives us some obvious difficulties, like "if matter and mind are completely seperate, how does the mind apprehend the material world?"

Both systems of thought give rise to difficulties and in the end, I believe that this is where words simply break down in their ability to transmit an accurate picture of reality. Thus, we come to symbols. In this regard, I think that math can give some clues as to how things can be both separate and unified simultaneously!

Take, for example, the "Golgen Ratio" Phi, or more generally, irrationaly numbers. First, natural numbers are so name because they denote the material world and it's plurality - things can be enumerated, counted. 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on. Rational numbers are defined as ratios of natural numbers. Again, these are directly related to enumeration - 1/2, 2/3, 5/8, etc.

Irrational numbers, however, present an intriguing phenomenon - they are not "rational" in that they cannot be expressed in terms of natural numbers, thus they in some way related to a higher realm than that which can be counted (the material world). They are defined in terms of intrinsic characteristics and relationships of one thing to another. They hint at non-enumerated unity.

So, pi is defined by the inner relationships of the aspects of the circle. Phi is defined by a recursive relationship. These "numbers" bridge the gap between mind and matter, hence the reverence bestowed them throughout the ages. Phi, for example, while being an irrational number, is integral to the forms of growth and reproduction. For me, it speaks then of how that which is above enumeration (unity) can unfold into diverse forms.

This gives rise, by the way of analogy, to an understanding, at least to some degree, of the paradox of how God could be both transcendent or "apart" and apprehendable or immanent.

On a personal note, I have had a very profound and intimate relationship with God and Jesus for many years (in fact, in retrospect, from before I was born), so it goes far beyond some intellectual pursuit or philosophical inquiry or "being told" what to believe. (Just a preemptive parry to the inevitable accusation ... [

])

shedt · January 29, 2004, 22:49:05

quote:
Originally posted by onefromsomewhereelse

God is neither male or female, but spirit; however, English usage dictates this term to be "he" and not "her".

in which books / english manual does it say this ?

lau_lauz · October 19, 2003, 05:00:54

DOES GOD/JESUS EXIST? HELP ME PLEASE....................[?]

soma-sight · January 24, 2005, 14:54:53

Yes Jesus Christ exists and He wants a relationship with you so He can change your heart.

The Bible is God's Word and all Truth.

Only the Gospel of Christ leads to happiness and eventually an Eternity with Him.

Ephesians 1:13

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Get a good KJV Bible, a concordance and pray to the Holy Spirit to understand His Wisdom in the Word.

This Way you can be sure that Jesus will enter your heart and change your life!

Legend · January 24, 2005, 21:48:15

They both exist. There are plenty of "proofs" that Jesus existed in various religions and books. God on the other hand is a much more complex concept that no-one can correctly claim to understand completely. It's like trying to teach a dog to speak a human language.

Quote from: lau_lauzDOES GOD/JESUS EXIST? HELP ME PLEASE....................[?]

Palehorse · January 25, 2005, 02:28:14

Quote from: Soma-Sight
The Bible is God's Word and all Truth.

Actually, the bible never refers to itself as God's Word. Biblically, the Word (Logos) is Christ. You're coming dangerously close to idolatry here, IMO.

Quote
Only the Gospel of Christ leads to happiness and eventually an Eternity with Him.

I'm a Christian, and I disagree. I've known some pretty happy atheists, and some pretty miserable Christians in my lifetime. It's all a matter of perspective, really.

Quote
Get a good KJV Bible

Why the KJV, out of curiosity?

soma-sight · January 25, 2005, 02:44:27

QuoteActually, the bible never refers to itself as God's Word. Biblically, the Word (Logos) is Christ. You're coming dangerously close to idolatry here, IMO.

2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Saying God's Word's are Truth is not idolatry my friend.

A Christian without a knowledge of the Bible is like a ship on a grand voyage...................without a compass! The waves will quickly sink you in false security.

QuoteI'm a Christian, and I disagree. I've known some pretty happy atheists, and some pretty miserable Christians in my lifetime. It's all a matter of perspective, really.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 (King James Version)

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

True Christians understand that this life is a passing show. The reality of the situation is the eventual return of Jesus Christ to rescue His followers from sin and death.

A person with this knowledge cannot help but be hopeful for the future.

QuoteWhy the KJV, out of curiosity?

The KJV is the closest to the original Greek, Hebrew manuscripts.

Palehorse · January 25, 2005, 03:10:14

Quote2 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I assume you're a believer in biblical inerrancy, and if so that's all well and good, but I have a significantly different take on this one.

1. When it was written, the Bible in its current form did not yet exist. Thus, when the author of 2 Tim. says "all scripture," he might well be referring to writings that YOU would not accept as scripture.

2. Inspiration is not quite the same thing as being the direct words of God.

3. I'm of the school of thought that 2 Tim. was one of the books written some time after Paul's lifetime by someone using his name. This same guy has some rather misogynistic things to say about women in particular, which shows me he didn't share Christ's belief in equality, or Paul's sentiment that "there is no Jew, Greek, slave or free, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." So, while he may have had other good things to say to his congregation, that's enough for me not to feel any compelling need to take every word he says as God-breathed truth.

Quote
Saying God's Word's are Truth is not idolatry my friend.

I believe the bible contains the words of God (most notably spoken by Jesus and the OT prophets) but it, in itself, is not THE Word of God. It is a book, into which the words of God have been written by men, after being filtered through their own finite understanding. A useful tool for discovering who this Jesus character was, and through him, who God is and what He wants from us, but that's as far as I'd go.

Quote
A Christian without a knowledge of the Bible is like a ship on a grand voyage...................without a compass! The waves will quickly sink you in false security.

Agreed.

QuoteThe KJV is the closest to the original Greek, Hebrew manuscripts.

Disagreed. The KJV is great as far as beautifully poetic language is concerned, but it's actually among the least accurate translations out there, Which shouldn't be all that surprising -- it was translated in the 15th century by a committee on the king's payroll. Not only have more manuscripts been discovered in the centuries since then, biblical scholarship has come quite a long way, and now we have the benefit of scholars who can work without fear that they'll lose their heads (literally) if they don't come out with a finished product that the king approves of.

Since all translations have their strengths and weaknesses, the best choice is to have a bunch of 'em on hand to compare and study. That's where biblegateway.com comes in -- I think they have like twenty different versions now. I personally have found the NRSV to be the best balance between readability and accuracy I've seen so far, so that's the one I get the most general use out of.

Colossus999 · January 26, 2005, 18:13:48

Yes, they both exist. They have found scientific proof that Jesus exists, and In the bible it predicted many things that have happening. One such prediction is Israel once again becoming a nation. It also predicted that Israel would always be fighting with Palestine. Just watch, they'll never have peace. Finally, where did the universe come from if not from God? If you say the big bang , what started that?

karnautrahl · January 26, 2005, 19:06:24

I'm glad I stayed out of religion so far in my life

.
Though I agree with some of the things Jesus is supposed to have said, including treating others as you would have yourself be treated, and "the kingdom of heaven is within you".
I don't think I need to just take something into my heart on "faith" to be happy and lead a fulfilling life. A heart centred idea of morality has served me well enough so far

.
Interesting that there are so many "versions" of "God's Word.
The Big Bang is just a model of what might have happened, creationism is another and possibly metaphoric.
I'm sure in time to come we will predict better, more complete pictures of what happened, if it's knowable by us that is

.
And all in all I could just be typing late late night nonsense on this here thread

.

Gandalf · January 29, 2005, 08:21:50

Palehorse_

Palehorse, if someone like Soma-sight believes in the inerrency of the bible and is to be taken literely, 'written in stone' (a stance which is fanatasism and dangerous imo, as bad as muslim fanatics), there is little point in wasting breath and energy trying to argue otherwise.

Any attempt to bring normal historical perspectives and historical or histiographical elements will not be appreciated and indeed ignored.

This is a matter of faith for them and they are free to believe this if they wish, even of they do irritate the rest of us with their constant 'in-your-face' preaching...

as long as they do not get access to nuclear weapons so that they can 'hasten the second coming' then they can do what they like as far as I'm concerned!

Doug

PS I thank 'god' I was not born in the bible belt. i think i would go nuts!

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Does God/Jesus Exist?