The Astral Pulse

Druidism is really an oral tradition, so it is a bit hard to put it down to writing.  I usually give my teachings orally, sorry, it just seems more right.  Ill type stuff, but just short snippets.

You should try reading Jean Mearkle - The Druids, Celtic priests of Nature.


That isnt how you spell his surname, but i cant rememeber how to, and the book is about 300km away.

Translating oral to written is hard. Its not like people think where one spoken word translates to one written word.

On a business trip to the UK once, we had occassion to visit the "local" at night for a pint or two, and some laughs around the fire.  Then we'd walk home to the manor where we were visiting.  One night as I walked along I suddenly felt the temperature of the air change.  I mean drastically enough that even with my share of the Guinness on board I could feel it.  I walked back and forth in the lane feeling this difference.  Our host, thinking me even more daft than usual came back and inquired of me, so I asked him what was the ancient history of these parts.  He laughed and said it was Druid country. Then he pointed off a bit and said there is the ashdown forest, and at night we can still see them in there.  My friends all laughed, but when we returned to the manor I went up on the roof and when I had opened my vision, there were many others out and about the forest that night.  It was also my first look at some picts.
They were beautiful people to be sure.

I'm reading a book about Druids now that is proving quite interesting, and "heavy sledding" as well. As soon as I remember to write the author's name down (I think the last name is Benson and the title is just "Druids") I will post it on the reading list thread. But in it he compares druidic history from many different sources to try and get at the truth about them. For instance, his conclusion is that Druids very likely never practiced human sacrifice, which works for me! He says they were more than just magicians; they were political advisors, teachers, managers,etc. Their rituals were just a part of a much bigger picture.

hey, i think you can get alot of info out of foas, he is a druid/shammy, pm him and you can talk to him on msn or yahoo.

im new here but i hope I can put some light on the matter.
as we all know the druids never written anything down so what we know about the ancient druids is very limited.luckily the Romans and the early Christian Monks written a lot down about them.
it's just the case of finding the real facts from the propaganda.
and many that is known is in songs and stories.
Druidism is a lot native American in someways that they hold a lot of respect to animals and the belief in a spirit is in everything animals trees rocks and so on.and the druids have got a very strong belief in reincarnation,and a belief in the truth is Almighty.
the druid were the elite class in Celtic Society,they were the wizards, doctors, astronomers judges,and advisers to the Kings and queens.
there is some belief with some historians that the Druids wore around before the Celts came about.
the druid are said to be able to do some powerful things like shapeshifting,be able to talk to the trees and animals and be able to control the weather.
druids today are trying to learn from the stories to learn what the ancients druid new. to see the world how they saw the world but it's not easy in today's society where the rich and corrupted rule.
as each year goes by we learn a bit more about Druidism from what the historians find out and what people learn from the natural world around them.

go here its got a bit of info about the druids
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A1300140

Druidism is of course very strongly connected to the earth, and my understanding of their magical system is that it is based entirely upon the trees in our woodlands. They consider oaks to be the most sacred, like a king of the forest I think. Shame I dont know more...

Jean Markale.
[;)]

Hi All,
Druids were the 'Brotherhood' and where balanced by the "Sisterhood" which we now understand to have been centred around the Veil of Avalon (Glastonbury Tor).  The concept of the Oak being the Prime tree is based on the Tree ranks which relate to Ogham and came to be well known after the Battle of the Trees in around 400B.c.

While we know that the Druids did not write things down, they did use a system that equates to writting.  They used the leaves of the trees according to their rank and therefore Ogham, each one being gently added to a long string that acted as a book.  So in effect they did put their oral traditions to a written form.

There were a number of levels and ranks within the Brotherhood, and each was reliant upon many years of study.  This was mirrored in the Sisterhood, so that balance was maintained.  It is quite funny how most people see the Druids as the only form of 'religious' service in the Celtic period without understanding that a balance of male/female energy was always held as important.

I would suggest that anyone seriously interested in studying Druid lore and practices should read the book by Douglas Monroe, entitled,"The 21 lessons of Merlyn, A study in Druid Magic and Lore." (Llewellyn Publications 1992)  

While it has stories based around the Merlyn/Arthur legacy, they are specifically written so as to illustrate certain practical methods and establish a firm footing for the Acolyte.  You will also find a number of special sections that provide detailed information about trials and rituals, that from my own experience do work.

Most of all, if you do persue this training/study, please remember to have fun with it too.

Love Always.[:)]

Hello Tayesin_

I agree with the gist of your post, but I'm not sure we can take as factual that the 'sisters of Avalon' were the female branch of the druid brotherhood... where does this come from? The Avalon myth is part of Arthurian mythology, which itself is part Romano-british/welsh myth but also contains much romantic stories added in by medieval writers; we cant be certain at what date the Avalon stories were formulated or if indeed it has any real connection to Druidism.

Most of what we know about Druidism come from Classical authors who wrote about them; Cicero, Diodorus, Pliny, Tacitus and of course Caesar all wrote about them.
Modern day Druids have had to reconstruct Druidism from what we know from these authors.

None of these authors make any mention of any kind of 'female sisterhood' which they would have done had they existed, as Graeco-Roman readers were always facinated in hearing about the odd practices of the 'barbarians'.

Rather, this concept sounds sounds like an all too modern attempt to inject some 'gender equality' into Druidism to make it more appealing to modern tastes.



Douglas

Hi Gandalf,
I agree that most of what has come down to us concerning the Druids has done so from early historical reports, like this one from Tacitus under the leadership of Suetonius in AD61..........
"On the shores stood the opposing army with it's dense array of armed warriors, while between the ranks dashed Women in black attire like the Furies, with hair dishevelled, waving brands.  All around the Druids lifting up their hands to heaven and pouring forth dreadful imprecations, scared our soldiers by the unfamiliar sight so that, as if their limbs were paralyzed, they stood motionless and exposed to wounds."

This illustrates that a female group were employed equally with the Druid Order to 'bring the power of the ancient gods to bear' when the island nation was about to be attacked.  I see that these women may have been what we call the Sisterhood of Avalon.  

While I also agree that the vast majority of what we do know has been romanticized during varios times and by many authors it is worthwhile remembering that all stories and myths have some basis in fact, ie: our bible is one such story/myth.

The Sisterhood was not a branch of the Druidic Order, they were their own Order.  It is well recorded that the Druids did not have an establishment at Avalon/Glastonbury so what was established there?  We know that the invading Roman church usurped all the ancient power spots and ritual areas in order to gain the support of those who still clung to the old ways, as conversion by the sword was fairly limited in it's success....much like the Chinese/Tibetan situation over the last 50 years.

Something of great importance must have existed atop the Tor at Glastonbury for the Roman church led Army to have desecrated the spot and torn down the standing stones in order to build their own stone building on the exact centre of the Tor.  If the Druids never used the place then someone else must have, some other group of equal standing to have been using such a 'powerful' place.

Perhaps the early Roman church may still have reference material that will tell us who was using the place prior to the building of the first small church at Glastonbury ?  My bet is that there would be some mention of 'witches' having employed the ritual hill before invasion.  

All the ancient cultures were very aware of the necessity for 'gender balancing' where the working of energy/high magic was to be employed.  I also think that the histories that we do have are, as always, written from the victor's perspective and therefore highly questionable, as is most of accepted history. We only need to look at the history of the settlement of the U.S to see that it was witten by the victors and much information of great interest was left out, although some efforts have been forthcoming these past 30 years to attempt to balance out that accepted view.

I consider the concept of the Sisterhood to be very acceptable, especially once we try to look past all the romanicisms of the medievil writters.  It makes good sense that an equally powerful group of women were also using the ancient power places and may have at times joined with the Druid brotherhood to bring about particular scenarios.  But that is my preferential view.

Love Always.[:)]

Hi Tayesin,

Sounds like you may be right in what you are saying.
btw you mentioned the 'Roman church' and how the invading Romans brought it with them when they arrived in 43AD.. By this I take it you mean Classical pagan religion?

You are quite right that the Romans imposed the classical religion on Britain and assimilated many pre-existing celtic sites into it,
eg at Bath, where you have the healing sanctury of Sulis 'Minerva'.

If on the other hand you mean the Roman *Christian* church; the Roman empire didnt officialy become Christian until the 4th century, and even then, paganism was still strong right into the 5th century, esp. in Britain.

I remember being told stories about druids.
The word 'druid' is irish and I know that it means priest or teacher.
The druids were witches, they were in touch with nature and treated it with reverence.
Women were treated as equals in old celtic Irish times, so there would have been female druids too.
Halloween, an old celic pagan celebration, the eve of spirits or souls.
The winter and summer solstice is  another pagan/druid celebration still going strong in ireland.
The first day of spring, is brigids day now, but brigid is the pagan godess in irish tradition, the tradition of the druids. They also worshipped her.
The first day of summer (bealtaine)-irish for may, is another druid time celebration.
If you want to know about druidism look at wicca as it is very like old celtic paganism and if you want to get a feel of how wrapped in magic old celtic/pagan ireland was look at old irish legends and stories.
I'll give you an example 'Tir na n'og' land of the young. and 'The children of lir', 'The Salmon of knowledge' beautiful stories with undertones of magic that can be looked at differently these days, me thinks!

I just have to add that the paganism in Britan faded a bit faster because the romans wouldnt come to ireland, the irish and scottish were known as barbarians. They all had beards and thats how we got the word barber or the french for beard 'barb'.Therefore the practices in ireland lasted longer.
That is why the english stories seem to be caught up in a more obscure history becuse of a higher interference by various writers.
There seems to be more of a mish mash.
So maybe I think the irish accounts and stories have not been mentioned even though paganism in ireland was still going strong while the romans in Britan were settled in.

Hi All,

Gandalf,
yes you are correct.  I was reffering to both 'religious invasions' but due to my tiredness and grumpy old man dispostion at the time I stuffed up with my intentions.  thanks for clearing it up.

Cailin,
what a beautiful traditional name you have.  The stories from the Welsh and Irish Cycles are wonderfully written and as you suggested can be read with an awe almost like that of a child reading the Arthur Myths for the first time.  I found them to be very much more than mythological stories though, as they are steeped in history including the original native races and the various invasion times and culture.

The Romans did come to Ireland but in a different way than in England.  A former son of Ireland who had lived in Roma and become a Bishop in the Holy Roman Church, named Patricious, led an army to Ireland in order to convert the heathens at the point of the sword.  For some reason that eludes me, he is now known as Saint Patrick and accorded high regard.  Which amazes me since he was a murderous, maniacal and egotistical man, with absolutely no conscience.

that's my two cents again, LOL

love Always.[:)]

Tayesin
That is fascinating to know that 'St Patrick', the patron saint of Ireland was actually the person you described.
It's funny how these facts are so completely unknown.
The story goes in Ireland that he was a poor boy who was kidnapped by pirates and brought to Ireland to work as a shepard in slavery! This boy was then to have grown up and become a very good man who spread the word of god, he walked on a pilgrimage to a mountain called to this day 'croagh Padraig'.
People still go on pilgrimages, up this mountain, in their bare feet.
'St Patrick' also supposedly banished all the snakes from Ireland.

This is what I was taught in school, not as a story, but as fact, I find it so rediculous.

Even the fact that he was a bishop in reality managed to work its way into the tale, as St Patrick' is the image of a man in a bishops official clothing and he is also carrying a shepards staff.

I agree totally that the old irish stories are steeped in historical references, I really wanted to say that before but I didnt know if I should trust my info, as people here have so much knowledge about so many things but I do firmly believe it myself. A lot of the people in the stories/accounts/tales (depending on what it is your reading) did exist like the warriors and earls and the places.

And I must add the magic existed too, there are really noticeable paralells between the practices of the native american 'sorcerers' or shamam and the practices of the druids and I think they are the same.
They did the same thing which was to hold our world and all its mysteries as reality.

I am also dying to know more..............Tayenis how do I get the info you get?

I just have to add that the paganism in Britan faded a bit faster because the romans wouldnt come to ireland, the irish and scottish were known as barbarians. They all had beards and thats how we got the word barber or the french for beard 'barb'.Therefore the practices in ireland lasted longer.
That is why the english stories seem to be caught up in a more obscure history becuse of a higher interference by various writers.
There seems to be more of a mish mash.
So maybe I think the irish accounts and stories have not been mentioned even though paganism in ireland was still going strong while the romans in Britan were settled in.

-----------------------------------------------------

This is wrong I'm afraid! In fact Britainnia was ALWAYS was one of the LEAST Christianised provinces of the Empire and even after Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman empire for a century; In Britain, Christianity was only ever one of several popular religions of the 4th and 5th centurys ad, even if it WAS the 'official' one.

Ireland by contrast became a major christian centre from the 6th century, thanks to Patrick, much more so than Britain *ever* had been. From there, they sent out missioniaries to Mainland Britain.

St. Patrick was not a 'son of ireland' in fact. This is Irish progaganda. The previous story is more correct.

He was Firmly Romano-British (remember British does not mean 'English': the anglo-saxons came later). He was the son of a Romano-British town official who was captured by slavers and taken to Ireland, he escaped and eventially ended up in Gaul where he was trained in the monastic tradition. Eventially he heard a 'call' to go to return to Ireland which he did, and converted many of the pagan kings (who had a very good reason for conversion as it offered a European wide, christian trading zone). From there many subsequent missionaries went out such as Columba to Scotland (Iona) and Cuthbert to Lindesfarne where he converted the angle kingdom of Northumbria.

Patrick was British but not 'english'. Remember at this time 'England ' did not exist. The kingdom of England or Angle-Land was only established later with the formation of the anglo-saxon kingdoms, incomers from Germany, who took over much of southern Britannia from the late 5th century and over the course of the 6th.


Douglas

PS there is also no evidence that 'Druid' is an Irish word. The word was already in use by Roman writers and belonged to the general priest caste of Celtic society which was stretched over much of northern Europe (which Ireland was only a small fringe part). To say the word originated in Ireland is highly unlikely!

Gandalf
First and foremost, it was never said that Patrick was the 'son of Ireland' ????, that is not irish propaganda.
When you say that the word druid is 'highly unlikely' to be Irish, let me rephrase that, Gaelic is the word I should have used.
which as you know was not confined to ireland.
I speak Irish or Gaelic or gaelige and druid is a word in the irish language, where it originated to there is irrelivant because what I said is true, druid in this present time is an irish word and probably also is used otherwise.
Yes Ireland became christianised early, but this religion was not forced upon the people, monastaries were used by the monks to write and document various religious texts, this was their work among prayer and devotion.
The peasants could not read or write, they were not taught by the monks or other religious people because being able to read and write was only nescessary if you were a Scholar or monk.
The relationship between the monastaries and the people was that they helped them agrculturally and practically.
Their aim of forcing a new religion on people was not a perrogative at this time in IRISH history.
You said that patrick came to ireland in 6th century, The romans, as you say were in Britian in the 4th and 5th century, well maybe 200 years is no comparison for you but for me it is simply because even though patrick came at that time which according to you means that Ireland was then christianised, it takes time for people to forget their old ways and beliefs does it not?
They didnt just forget everything the second Patrick landed in Ireland now did they?
Yes Ireland was known as the land of saints and scholars, learned men came from all over europe to study there but the people were just getting on with daily life and worshipping their own gods and spirits like they always had done for a thousand years before.

The Gaelic language is still spoken in Ireland, Britian once spoke it too but it has been lost on that island. It now exists only in France and Ireland.
Paganism and Druidism was alive and well long after the Romans had conquered Britian.
The fact that the Gaelic language (or Celtic) was wiped out in Britian and not In ireland proves that the language was an itergral part of the religious practices of the normal regular people, not the cheiftans and earls but the people.
This Celtic language was disallowed in Ireland in the 17th century, a long time for people to be speaking this language.

The Gaelic language is still spoken in Ireland, Britian once spoke it too but it has been lost on that island. It now exists only in France and Ireland.


The island of Britain is made up of two countries remember... England AND Scotland. (three if you count Wales but Wales was only ever a Principality, not a soverign country, however, Welsh is also a celtic tongue and is spoken there).

Sorry, Cailin, but Gaelic is also spoken in Scotland, I should know as I am Scottish and live in the country ;-)

Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic differ in some ways however, but it is indeed spoken in areas of the highlands and the Scottish parliament also encourages others to learn it with Gaelic tv programs etc.

Regards,
Douglas

About the order of Avalon and such, Europe was an anarchy at that point in history, and each village or community probably had their own druidic order with differetiations based on the local traditions. Ehile many beliefs were shared, it wasn't like the modern-day Catholic church or anything where it's all unified and run from a central power. Also, there were druids in other parts of Europe as well such as Gaul (basically, the same area as where France is now located).

Correction; England once spoke it too.
I would want to be pretty stupid to not know that Britain is made up of England Scotland and Wales!
The reason I said Britain was because you had previously corrected me on the fact that Britain was not divided up into the three countries we now know, you said that England, Scotland and Wales didnt exist at the time.
I feel like I'm having an information war!

The Gaelic language is not encouraged in Ireland when it comes to the parliament, it is compulsory.
All members of parliament speak fluent Irish.
It is also compulsory in School and also if a person wants to be a police officer.
There is also a Irish/Gaelic language T.V. station, and radio station.

cailin_

Sorry if I was coming over as picky Cailin, its just that in your earlier post it was worded as if you had no idea of such a thing as Scottish Gaelic. Pardon me if I interpreted that the wrong way, but I think it was the bit about Gaelic being no longer spoken 'on that island' which was confusing, as clearly, in Scotland, Gaelic IS spoken although it is of course part of 'that island' you speak of!

The Scottish parliament is encouraging Gaelic but is a long way off from making is compulsory like you say it is in Ireland, more's the pity.

There is a similar situation in Scotland however, as after the Jacobite rebellion in 1745, the English banned the Scots from using 'the Gaelic tongue' as well as the famous ban on 'tartan' (the Plaid, not the 19th century invented tartans of course).
These bans were only repealed in the 19th century but it has taken a long while for Gaelic to re-assert itself, although it is doing so now, and indeed in some areas of the highlands it has always continued to be spoken, ban or no ban.

Regards,
Douglas

Wow, so much to say.  First off, on the recent topic of the Gaelic languages, a bit of technical jargon.  The Celtic languages are descended   (in theory as this is going WAY back) of the Indo-European language spoken by the Aryan race during it's incursion into Western Europe.  Supposedly this occurred in 2-4 waves of migrations resulting in genetic/racial diversity but this isn't terribly relevant.
    Eventually the Celtic language split into two sections known as P-Celtic and C(?)-Celtic.  The division being made due to the C-Celtic bizarre abhorrence of the 'p' sound to the degree if it were not dropped entirely it was usually changed to a 'c' (k,g) sound.  C-Celtic is assumed to be the elder and is represented in modern day Irish, Scots Gaelic and some archaic tongues preserved in the mountains between Spain and France.
    P-Celtic is assumed to be the younger (possessing many more Latin elements) and is represented today by Welsh, Breton, and Cornish.  Continental Gaelic is generally assumed to have been comprised of P-Celtic dialects.  Manx is also considered a Celtic language but I'm not sure where it would fit.  (If you want to speak Manx don't move your tongue while speaking poor English, drink heavily, and spell phonetically.  [Sorry Gandalf.])
    Personally I think French is just as much Gaelic as it is Latin but that's a personal pet peeve.  Consider the nature of both French and Modern Irish to blur the boundaries between many tiny words in order to create mammoth sentence-words.  Interestingly you do not find this tendency in Welsh (to the same degree).  I no nothing of Cornish or Breton so if someone wants to add please speak up.  Also if someone is knowledgeable as to the native dialects of Galacia I would be thrilled to be informed.


    Alright, on to the Druids.  First I think it is necessary to relay a bit about the social climate at the time.  Obviously such things are mutable and such time and place are both important considerations.  I personally believe that evidence is strong enough to say that the "Celtic Empire" or perhaps more accurately, the "Celtic league of city-states" was fairly stable across Western and Central Europe for at least 300 years (and perhaps quite a bit longer) before Caesar and up to his incursion.   This was the time at which the Druids were at their peak of organization and, as such, I will use this period as example.
     However they arrived the Aryans seem to have eventually settled into 3 groups (look to the Irish invasion stories for some fascinating parallels.)
    The first, and apparently original, group were the builders and/or main utilizers of the dolmens and other standing stones.  Stone worship was prevalent and they tended to be at the lowest levels of society.  They may or may not have been Aryan but they certainly weren't Celts.  Think Fir-Bolgs and your on the right track as far as aesthetics.
    The second group was the Celts of the plains, a fairly passive group of "herdsmen, tillers and artificers" this group blended peacefully with the dolmen builders, setting up wherever they could find open space.  Though they do not appear to have developed sophisticated political institutions (only truly necessary in war) they did most likely contribute powerfully to the Druidic religion and Bardic poetry.
    The third group, and last to arrive, were the Mountain Celts, or the "True Celts".  Like their lowland cousins these people spoke a Celtic tongue and were of Aryan decent.  They were extremely warlike and set up military aristocracies wherever they went.  "Their women worked the fields and under their rule the common population was reduced to near servitude."  Ireland alone seems to have escaped this process and the sharp class (caste) lines drawn by it.  It is interesting to note that the Aryan conquers of India and the middle east see to have followed this pattern, the most extreme cases being under the Brahman system in India.
    This said I believe it is important to note that the Druids were, if not of then certainly for, the ruling class of Mountain Celts.  The center of Druidism (the religion) seems to have been in Britain (south-eastern England) but it's influence spread across Europe.  The Druidic faith seems to have been mainly comprised of a reverence for nature, a focus on memorization and semantics, as well as an Aryan mysticism not terribly dissimilar from the Vedic scripts.
    I believe the most important thing to remember when approaching the Druids is to remember that though they were the orchistrators of the state religion, they were also the lawyers, judges, historians, and advisers.  The sharp divisions between what is a priest and what is a "normal" person simply did not exist in a spiritual sense.
    I also believe it is important to remember that the Druids were only a portion of the 'religious community' if that it could be called.  Bards, Healers, and (depending on who you ask) Warriors also carried aspects of the divine.  This is an immense topic and far too complex for one posting but if anyone is interested I'll go into it further later on.

    The above is the official view and though it disagrees with my personal information in certain respects I agree with it in basic structure.  Below are my personal responses to certain inconsistencies I encounter in the post string.  The above is based on fairly scientific sources while the below enters into "pagan land" and draws on such resources as intuition, non-carbon based beings, and 'old' memories.

Ogham:
    The ogham (Ohm) system of communication was more concerned with a formalized system of speaking in cipher rather than specific tree-to-letter correlation.  The trees themselves could be used as a symbolic means of communication but this was more in the way of hieroglyphics or pictographs than phonetics languages.  It is theorized that the Druids held the Oak as sacred because the word for oak (druir) is quite similar to the word 'Druid'.  I have heard that the word 'druid' can be literally translated as "Oak Walker" or "Door Walker" but I know very little about this.
     The Druids were, in their approach to the universe if not on specific dogma, quite like the Quabalists and their presence from an empathic/energetic perspective is nearly identical.  Both parties have a strong affection for correspondences and a visually conceivable cosmology.  The legends of the Welsh, owing in theory to their proximity to the Druidic center, carry a much greater flavor of the Druidic perspective while the Irish myth cycles are far more literal and more flavored by the Bardic perspective.

    I personally find the concept of an all female religious order in the Celtic world under any name to be rather inconceivable.  Such lines drawn purely on anatomy simply weren't culturally relevant in pre-Christian Europe and you won't find them in Germanic or Nordic cultures either.
    Men tended to be the specifically employed sex for the terribly practical reason tat they don't get pregnant.  Therefore all groups of specialized labor (warriors, druids, bards, rulers, farmers, craftsmen, ect.) will be primarily men simply because men are biologically excluded from the crucial and time consuming occupation of baby making.  One must remember that out of shear necessity women spent a huge portion of their lives pregnant, just having been pregnant, or trying to be pregnant.  As the value placed on motherhood was not in the deplorable state that it is today, being a mother was your job just as much as being a priest was a Druids job.
    This is not to say that there weren't female Druids, just as there were female warriors, healers, poets and sovereigns.  I simply mean to point out that the fact that theses were a minority was a result of biology, not inequality.  I believe there is something to be learned in this that both women and children were valued enough that woman did not have to do the work of both sexes to be valued as an equal to a man doing the work of one.

    Finally I would like to say a little bit about Wicca.  Mainly that Wicca is not Druidism, nor is Wicca representative of the pre-Christian religions in any way, shape, form, or construct.  Personally I don't think modern Druids are terribly representative of ancient practices but they're a hell of a lot closer than Wiccans.  Let me be clear here that I have no quarrel with Wiccans nor Druids.  I have known and loved many of both varieties in my life and find them delightful company but there are simply fundamental differences that run far too deep to make any comparison.  A closer parallel could be drawn between Catholics and Druids than Wiccans and Druids.
    Wicca is a religion created by Gardner and Alexander in England in the early 1950s.  It is a pseudo polytheistic religion (2 does not equal many/poly in my book) and in many of it's views is quite monotheistic (such as calling all deities manifestations of 'THE Lady' or 'THE Lord'.)  Wicca contains many modified Celtic practices but it also contains elements from hundreds of different cultures across the globe.  It has an established dogma and morality and even (to a certain extent) a hierarchy.
     Druidism is also a religion, having been orchestrated my it's priests known as Druids.  Druidism has it's roots in ancient Aryan mysticism as well as the beliefs and practices of the Dolmen-Builders with a strong influences from Bardic practices.  It was distinctly a product of Pre-Roman Celtic society and was based in modern day England, which is perhaps its only link to Wicca outside of the incredibly vague title of Earth-worshiping religions.

    Phew.  Good to be finished.  I realize this is rather longwinded and therefore I'm certain I've made hundreds of errors so if anyone happens to find them just let me know and I'll clear things up.    
[;)]

Hi Ossian!

Thanks for your post, very interesting!

I agree with you that Wicca and Neo-Druidism have only a limited conection with old pagan practices. Wicca esp. has no great connection as you say.

neo-Druidism has slightly more, or at least is on the right track, as although we cannot re-construct all the specific rituals and beliefs, we do have soem basic notions and a 'framework' to work with, and the two basic precepts:  of aquiring knowledge or lore and respecting the earth, can be used as foundations with which to build on.
So although neo-Druidism is new, a good proportion of its 'spirit' is certainly old and provides a good framework to construct a 'new druidism'.

I would just like to note that I have no problem with Wicca or any other neo-pagan system. Even if they are all new, they all contain at least some original 'sentiment' as it were. To criticise Wicca because Gardner made it all up or whatever is unsound, since Wicca has moved on and has continued to develop since then, and as one wiccan pointed out, if religions were all rated on their *historical truths*, then all religions, Christianity included, would be undermined. However, it is not about historical origins, it is about a way of life and viewing the world.

Concerning the Celts,
Thanks for your description of the Celtic/Aryan migration theory. I was wanting to ask you what you thought of the other theory that is doing the rounds at the moment, esp in academic circles:
ie this is the 'celtic culture theory', which reckons that there was no large scale migration as such, rather the celts were the same people who had always been there (at least since neolithic times) but that it was the *Celtic culture itself* which spread, being formulated in the Latiene(?) region in modern Switzerland, and then spreading across Europe, possibly through trade. Celtic culture was essentially a fashion (a set of ideas inc. culture/art/religion) which was quickly picked up by people as it spread until by around 500BC, most of Central and western Europe had adopted celtic culture.
This accounts for all the regional differences.

A half-way house between this theory and the earlier one is that perhaps there WAS a spread of ideas and culture but ALSO it was assisted by SOME small scale migrations which helped spread these ideas.

Certainly it has been postulated for some time that the 'aryan group' actually refers to a language group rather than a people. This was known before the War, however, Hitler got the wrong end of the stick and thought it refered to people, in fact many thouht this, even in Britain and the US.  This language group spread from india into the west.
This would be consistent with the concept of the Celtic culture being a spread of ideas rather than people.

What do you think?

Douglas

Regardless of druidism I write to correct "Cailin's misrepresentation os eltic hitory. Gaelic is not equivelant to celtic linguistically. Welsh is the descendant of the language spoken across England and lowlands Scotland fom 4c onwards, this Brythonic tongue became today's Welsh, the poetry of Aneurin and Talieisn would testify to this. Also the Celtic/Brythonic kings pushed westwards by the invading Germanic tribes, settled in Wales, and linguistically their languages were not Gaelic but old Welsh and researched academic study will reveal this.
Secondly Welsh is the strongest of the Celtic languages, seeing as Irish GAelic is dead as a community language, whereas welsh is the community language for most of rural Wales exculding the cities, acaing reading academic sources would prove my point yet again.
I suggest people read, and not take thier facts from the internet what Cailin seems to have done.

First of all I do not get my facts from the internet.
Secondly, what I have noticed with this discussion is that people always have their history, you are now saying that Welsh is the main language and that the Irish language is dead, have you ever been to ireland?
Everybody is proud of their heritage but it doesnt mean that Wales or Irelnd was the crux and beginning of it all.(Gealic or Celts)Everything is connected and people and countries including different academics all have different points and accounts which does'nt nescessarily mean that one person does'nt know what they are saying.
All countries have their own history, including you and me, which is very obvious.
"Welsh is the strongest of the celtic languages" ok fine, the fact that your from Wales has nothing to do with it I suppose!
What I am guilty of is not being specific enough with my words, I dont confess to know everything about all of this but am very interested, that is why I am in this discussion- TO LEARN so I really dont think that insulting me  is the way to go as it's a bit off putting to come back and learn more, I'm just intersted thats all and trying to add my bit of information, so dont be so hard on me .

Hi[:)]
I'm interested in druidism and can suggest one good site I found recently:   http://www.wicca.com/    
I'm not so good in facts so I'm not going to talk about that. I'm reading these days one book also connected with the topic: Andy Baggott " Celtic Wisdom" . And I'll disciss it later.
Best regards[:)]

Yes well. I can see that evreybody here knows a lot.
It wouldnt be fair no matter what religion you are to compare.
That is in fact Hypocritical. I can say mine is better than yours. But in way like Wicca has no great connection. Excuse me?
There is no way anyone can say that since all religions have the same connection. I dont care what people say after this post. But if you say that then you are a hypocrite to me and your then comparing which is no point. Since everybodys religion has a huge connection regardless if your a Druid Wiccan Christian.
I just dont like the fact you COMPARE whereas in all religions it mostly says in one way or another that you shouldnt.
Wicca to me has a big connection so does Druidism and Witchcraft.
Since Wicca is very close to Witchcraft as i have been studying both.
Thank you and could you please refrain from comparing other religions as it could offend many other wiccans.

Wow am I ever learning a lot here!

I read a German lanquage study of the spread of Christianity through Irish monks across Europe in the early middle ages a couple of years ago.

I am proud of my own Irish heritage(yankee with Irish passport) and sad about the disappearance of the old culture at the hands of Julius Caesar and then the Catholic church and later the English but well we are adaptable.

I have studied lots of world religions and their techniques and philosophy and am generally interested in my own roots as we all are here obviously. Maybe if I were a druid in a previous life and could have a hypnotic regression I could catch enough of the feel of it to make some sense of what was going on back then. Of course I am only partly joking as the arguments and distortions from a couple thousand years of history seem to make it hard to see what was really happening. Maybe our celticness(of the diaspora at least) has just been reduced to "kiss me I'm Irish" buttons on St. Pats day in America. Otherwise obviously Celtic authors and artists and scientists have been very important and there are maybe 100 million celtic descendants alive in the world and perhaps French really is just a mixed language as said above. A dying culture/people? No way!

The Druids were indeed more than priestly magicians and despite the cover-up that includes the fictions I have read here about Ogham starting in 400 AD or even BC the truth is it was they who Strabo knew had a 7000 year written history. It was the Bairds who kept this history and it is a Baird (me) who pierces the veil of history today in a book called Diverse Druids that the person referring to an author named Benson (here) might well be reading. Yes, it is heavy sledding and makes one have to research and check facts because the likes of Rome/Britain (both founded by Bruttii) and Caesars have put bounties on the heads of The Brotherhood.

I think this article is very informative on the "Druids".

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/article-lkj-04-03-06-k.htm

I guess I was just a bit annoyed when one poster made the sweeping statement that while Gailic is still found in Ireland it was killed off in England and 'no longer exists on that Island'.

er... excuse me, I live in Scotland, which is part of 'that island'.
Yes thats right 'England' does NOT refer to the whole island of Britain but only to the southern kingdom of the island, the north is a seperate country called Scotland (who for economic and political reasons have entered into an *equal* political partnership called the 'United Kingdom' or 'Great Britain'); however they are still seperate cultures.

Yes, I know some of this is pretty basic stuff but not everyone is aware of it.

Anyway, I can assure you that Scottish Gailic *IS* still spoken as a first language (as well as english) in some part of the highlands and is a LIVING language. The new Scottish parliament has also made a comitment to bring in more Gailic tv programs etc.

As far as I know, this is quite different from Irelend, in which irish Gailic is not spoken as a first language anywhere as far as I am aware (correct me if Im wrong), other than some basics being learned by rote at school.

Regards,
Douglas

History is prologue to the present as thought is to action.
Our socially accepted 'norms' or acts often determine how average people think – based on the propaganda presented as fact. These supposed facts of history are revised to suit attitudes of the prevailing paradigm. Reading about Cleopatra in the words of Lucy Hughes-Hallet will make the point clear to anyone; she presents an alchemist or temptress to seem either evil or laudatory depending on many social imperatives in different centuries. The same is true with Jesus and there are many good books written by Rabbis or other scholars to demonstrate that issue, which repeats like cucumbers on a full stomach. Marshall McLuhan made an interesting observation about the person who controls the media for 15 years. He said if he was given that power he would control all society. His recent biographer says McLuhan knew about secret societies who own or control the very media and society we live in.
It is a multi-layered management that many popes, kings and professors have mistakenly thought they were in charge of, but later were seen to be operating according to a larger plan. The Bilderbergs are not the most powerful, or at the top of the mountain, but whoever organizes their seminars and information is an important person. Whenever powerful people seek to come to common ground it can easily be seen as a good thing. There is no good reason to reject such efforts that take place every year at hotels owned by the Rothschild family, unless we know what they do. In the absence of facts we must look to history or the outcome of the supposed plans (or lack thereof) that such people agree to implement. Shortly after the Trojan World War in 1200 BC a similar and probably similarly structured meeting (by the ancestors of the Rothschilds) took place off Miletus. They were called the Perpetual Sailors and as members of the Phoenician Brotherhood had been around since Ba'albek and before the Pyramids.
Those who run the bureaucracy or act as political 'stooges' and 'fronts' for these plans include the likes of Napoleon and Hitler. But the history we are told about, seldom explores how these supposed dictators were put in power and how they were managed or 'handled'. Hitler was a Jew and lived as one in Vienna; according to the report made for the top dog of US Intelligence (is that an oxymoron?), Wild Bill Donovan. This book written by a psychiatrist leaves out all evidence of any spiritual or occult specialties employed by Hitler or his handlers. I assure you Professor Horbiger, Himmler, Eckhart and others were adept in matters of the occult ('oc'= 'not', a cult). This book is called The Mind of Adolf Hitler: The Secret Wartime Report, and it makes it very apparent Hitler was related to the Rothschilds: but it doesn't explain who these people were before they took their name from the 'red shield' in front of Meyer Amschel Rothschild's father's hotel just a century before Adolf's father went to study in Vienna. Vienna is the place Salomon Rothschild had run his part of the Rothschild financial EMPIRE.
The U.S. and the whole supposed Free World were anti-Semitic as the movie Ship of Fools does indicate. We are scapegoating Germans to this very day. The truth about the Jews is not even known to the Jews themselves. There is no homogeneous Jewish people who came from a genetic group separate from all other white people. Their 'Lost Tribes' and Bible Narratives are an affront to reality or mere propaganda that became managed by Rome. The holocausts include the 'brothers' of the Jews – Ukrainians, Armenians and Irish etc. In fact even in the 20th Century the attempted genocide of the Jewish people was not as bad as what happened to the Ukrainian people perpetrated by our ally, Stalin. The Aryan fiction was used by political forces to create a war. The Jews are the high priests or at least the 'arch-tectons' (architect, and the title of Jesus and Joseph in the early Bible called the Septuagint) of the Pyramid. The Father of Biblical Archaeology, W.F.Albright, states that the Bible 'is a Phoenician literary legacy'. Aryan can be shown derived from 'Eire-yann' or the Keltic people (including the Germanic Teutons) whose spiritual center was Tara in Ireland (for at least a millennia in a far longer period of influence). These are the builders of the Pyramid who Moses led out of Egypt as the story goes. The language of Hebrew was the sacerdotal code of these 'arch-tectons' who knew knowledge in the hands of the power-mongers could be harmful. Thus we have the name for the Hebrews who are part of the Jewish 'Brotherhood'.
Genetics is a record that the Empire-builders could not fully eradicate. They did an excellent job ridding the world of knowledge in books or libraries like Alexandria, Bangor and the Mayan lands. Genetics now shows a Haplogroup X marker which allows us to know all white men including many North American Indians like the Sioux, started out near the Caucasus Mountains 30-35,000 years ago. Linguistics and other archaeological tools such as forensic analysis of corpses hooked on cocaine (from Peru) in Egypt (see Balabanova and various TV specials); has made the ongoing history of Empire and man far from palatable or believable. Hellenizing usurpers of previous cultural and technical knowledge was not so much the intent of the Greeks who honoured the 'ancient ones' they called 'Keltoi' and 'ogygia'. It was the enslaving barbarians of Rome who enjoyed their 'sport' in their arenas who really refined this prejudice. They had the audacity to call the Berbers – 'Berberoi' or 'barbarians' even before they ripped off their own people by creating Caesar and later as they made Churchianity the true Roman Empire.
Our sovereign nations are founded on concepts of 'Manifest Destiny' (While they give their cronies 'Manifest Subsidy') and such perversion as allowed the British to colonize India or force opium upon the more sophisticated and cultured civilizations such as China. The Treaty of Tordesillas dictated by Pope Alexander VI was the significant starting point of a plan to expand the Inquisition. I wonder if kids today learn about it in school. I know I didn't. This Pope was a Borgia and related to the De Medici's who were then in charge of the finance monopoly that had once been the Templar 'fatted calf'. Could the De Medici's have passed their monopoly on to the Rothschild's? Yes, indeed, if you look to the place Meyer Amschel Rothschild lived and worked as the chief financial guru; you find it was the Hesse family castle. This is the same place where a De Medici favourite 'son' by the name of St. Germain spent a lot of time. At the time of the founding of the Jesuits you will find the Borgias donate their first University, which implemented full scale teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
The De Medici matron Catherine was the protector of another Jesuit named Nostradamus. The Alumbrados were the secret society within the Jesuit Order and they may even have founded it in the style of the Priory of Sion founding the Templars and Knights Malta five centuries before. It is reasonable to suspect that Nostradamus was a member of this esoteric inner sanctum. Nostradamus, Aquinas and St. Germain are three of the most knowledgeable alchemists this history has ever known. You will see that alchemy comes from or was akin to Druidism in this book.
When the Pope apologized for two millennia of 'heinous acts' in 1999 while asking for 'forgiveness and renewal' he did not mention the Thomists are still a major force in his Order. He might be a rare person interested in explaining these things to you, but he is not allowed to go into such details (perhaps for legal reasons). You should have facts before you make determinations or start the decision-making process. However, you have not been allowed to know the facts and we have all been kept in the dark far past the Dark Ages created by these people who keep knowledge (power) to themselves. Despite his 'goodness' the Catholic Church and their Anglican henchmen were named as the creators of the near genocide in Rwanda, by an International Commission and the Organization of African Unity. The same thing is still true in Ireland where all culture of old was forced and policed out of the Irish people over the last three centuries after a millennium of war. In fact when the Pope said there is no such place as Heaven or Hell his priests in Toronto suggested to their parishioners that he was old and feeble. The prejudices that run rampant in our civilization are directly attributable to theocratic ecclesiasties. They have done worse things to women ever since Hammurabi decreed a woman is the property of her father until she is sold to her husband.
Theocracy has been a tool of noble or monarchist families and philosophy was often controlled by these theocracies from the time of Plato to Bertrand Russell. How much blame can we lay at their feet for allowing women to be abused to the extent they are? Today more women wear berkas or saris in the house/prison of their father/husband than are free to go topless or wear a mini-skirt. Yet the Kelts often went naked on hot days – so we are told they were 'barbarian'!
There are many secrets and intrigues of old that have simply donned an overcoat of propriety. We will demonstrate the Druids and their 'Red Headed League of Megalith Builders' or Tuatha De Danaan are the likely originators of all religion. This Source of the teaching of Jesus and 'Brotherhood' could be re-energized just as Jesus tried to do before others put words in his mouth after he died. The mummies found near the present day Great Wall of China and those of the Aleutian Islands are just some of the 'giants' we will show were part of this 'Brotherhood of Iesa' (Hesous or Jesus). They were on Malta before they built the Pyramid of Iesa and here we find archaeology shows 2800 years with no weapons. They were Chaos Scientists 13,000 years ago and keen observers of nature (God or Reality) for a long time before they met the older modern man we've found near Lake Mungo in Australia.
Nostradamus was a member of an even more ancient and secret inner sanctum called the 'Sons of the Widow' according to The Secrets of Nostradamus by David Ovason. He also says he was an initiate of the Hibernian Mysteries and an expert in the Green Languages derived from the 'Language of the Trees'. I know this language relates to the Bards (BRD in vowel less early tracts or alphabets) whose Troubadours of Cathar times he was born amongst their recent remains, caused by the Crusades of the Dominican 'Hounds of God'. Ovason has a good handle on the Irish part of the equation and the Bardic Tradition. He says the 'Sons' were followers of the Biblical Miriam who he shows is the Masonic Hiram through these cryptic or coded languages. I think there was an earlier widow that Manetho places at the very beginning of the genetic foundation of white people 35,000 years ago. This is when Manetho says Isis founded the Egyptian colony. Manetho pandered to Ptolemy in his history which has played an important part in the Bible Narrative, so that is not the best of sources. A web site with insight to how these codes were part of the Languages of the Birds or Bards (Ogham) is found at http://users.gloryroad.net/~bigjim/GreenLang.htm.  
  The Bardic 'verbal tradition' is kin to the Qabala, Tao and shamanic systems throughout the world. Scientific American and National Geographic know North America (Jan/Feb 2001 issues) was visited from 30,000 years ago by Europeans. The degree of world trade has not been addressed in any major academic institution I know about, although Prof. Cyclone Covey at Wake Forest and Steve Omar in Hawaii join Fell, Kelley and others in addressing what we will cover to some extent, again. Ovason says the following on page 383 of his book that explodes all the previous poor scholarship dealing with Nostradamus.
    "There is even some indication that the mystery schools of Imperial Rome had ordained that Ireland should remain untouched as an un-Romanized periphery on the edge of the map of the Imperium. It was intended by the initiation schools {who go back to a re-organization by Tuthmosis in Egypt and before.} that this map would correspond to the future Christian world. It had been part of the destiny of Rome to establish the ground for the development of the spiritual mysteries of the future – which was to be the new initiation schools of Christianity. {Thus St. Columba said 'Christ is the new Druid'.} Although the Roman soldiery did reach Ireland, they did not take over its cultural life, nor destroy its Druidic priestcraft, in the way they seemed to have destroyed it in England, Scotland and (to a lesser extent) Wales. Thus, something of the great pre-Christian mystery wisdom survived in Ireland, and it was for this reason that it continued as the main esoteric centre of European cultural life. This is why Ireland became a refuge for esoteric Christianity {through languages like Uncial they created many Bible myths or dogma and the language Insular they developed grew into English.} – for what we might even term pre-Roman Christianity. What we now tend to see romantically, through the eyes of later poets, as the twilight of  the Celts was really the dawn of esoteric Christianity, which has yet to speak in the future of Europe. {Hitler tried to bring this forward in a perverse manner as he called himself 'the torch-bearer of Jesus'.} The ancient Druidic wisdom which had served the soul-life of the North, had already begun to give way to, or integrate with, the Christian Mysteries – to those mysteries which we would probably now call Celtic Christianity."
And the Rosicrucians of the Masonic Lodges have maintained much of the ritual and knowledge even if most of them are not able to decode the rituals, symbols and words they speak. It may surprise some people to see German historian C. Besoldus (1577-1638) claiming that the name Huns came from a Celtic word meaning 'Great Magicians'. Surely this is what the Druids and 'smiths' were able to do. They were even able to create spiritual visions of such force that whole armies would shudder and quake, then run from the field of battle. This book is much more than a statement on the nature of propaganda and yet it can only begin to cover all our human potential might have allowed or might yet allow.
In 2003 the Y chromosome research confirmed the Irish, Welsh, Basque and North Americans are the same people, long after I had written this book and predicted this would be proven.

In 2003 the Y chromosome research confirmed the Irish, Welsh, Basque and North Americans are the same people, long after I had written this book and predicted this would be proven.


And what about Scottish?

Douglas

This thread is specifically designed to discuss and explore Druidism.

I know very little about this religion, but I would love to learn!

If anyone knows of the practice and belief of Druidism, please begin this thread.

I will check in so I can get the scoop!

Peace,
Beth