I just saw the movie FITNA by the dutch politician Geert Wilders. Very well done but very short . It shows the main issue to face, THE KORAN, this is the "fountain" as he says this is where it is all commanded. Now take a look and tell me what you thinbk
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5U6vSvITaM&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZUTloCxQ_Q&feature=related
Get over it dude. Muslims have always been peaceful. Rash and floundery statements of a couple doesnt change the fact that:
1)Muslims have always been more tolerant, and more civilized, in warfare and elsewhere, than christians.
2) When the crusaders killed little Muslim, Jewish, and christian babies in Jerusalem in the name of God, the Muslims didnt go killing little christian babies in europe. Not to mention their justification for their crusades being from the old testament as well as the new testament (Jesus telling his disciples to sell their cloaks for swords)
3) When christians tortured people during the inquisition(Muslims and Jews), Muslims had nothign to do with that.
4) When Jews were being persecuted in Christian europe for hundreds of years, they were protected and treated with dignity in the Islamic world.
5) And of course now, when the Christian dominated 'United States' invades two nations, justifying their invasions with lies and deceits, killing thousands of military and civilian, where is the Muslims fault in that?
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 02, 2008, 03:42:37
5) And of course now, when the Christian dominated 'United States' invades two nations, justifying their invasions with lies and deceits, killing thousands of military and civilian, where is the Muslims fault in that?
....
I'm sure September 11, 2001 and the fact Saddam used WMDs on his own people, had nothing to do with the fact that we invaded "2 countries"....
but...wheres this second country??? we INVADED Iraq, thats one. im still missing this other country you say we invaded.
we didn't invade Afghanistan...the terrorist faction that was responsible for 9/11 was there. we went there with Afghanistan's cooperation, thats not an invasion my friend.
Quote from: SnakeDoctor on April 02, 2008, 05:53:02
....
I'm sure September 11, 2001 and the fact Saddam used WMDs on his own people, had nothing to do with the fact that we invaded "2 countries"....
but...wheres this second country??? we INVADED Iraq, thats one. im still missing this other country you say we invaded.
we didn't invade Afghanistan...the terrorist faction that was responsible for 9/11 was there. we went there with Afghanistan's cooperation, thats not an invasion my friend.
1) Can you explain to me the connection between September 11,2001 and Iraq?
2) Saddam Hussein was not a Muslim. He was a baathist who ruled by secular law, whom every "fundamentalist Muslim" despised.
3) Apparently you have a very lax definition of what a WMD is. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/iraq.wmd.report/
Even if we were to argue that Saddam Hussein used 'WMD's on his own people, the Muslims didnt need big super-hero U.S.A. to come in and make things worse.
4) Yes, you invaded Afghanistan. Maybe your memory isnt that great, but the reality is you had no cooperation from Afghanistan for the invasion. The Taliban, whom had control over the vast majority of Afghanistan had no pre-knowledge of the 9/11 attacks by al-qaeda, and demanded that America bring forth evidence that bin laden was behind the attacks, in which they would subsequently try Bin Laden in Islamic courts. America ignored this noble behavior and invaded like a bunch of whining bullies.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/11/world/main310852.shtml
Oh yeh, and thanks for admitting that you, along with your government invaded these countries, for YOU are just as guilty for these crimes.
Thanks,
Abu-Usaama
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 02, 2008, 15:52:38
Oh yeh, and thanks for admitting that you, along with your government invaded these countries, for YOU are just as guilty for these crimes.
I hope you are not accusing all Americans of being guilty of these "crimes". Not all Americans think the same, and not all of us wanted the same things to happen. There are quite a few Americans who believe that the only "terrorists" involved in events on 9/11 were in fact Americans. I know what it's like in the middle-east, i've been there and seen for myself, and I'm not proud at all of what has happened. I am certainly not proud that some of the American troops have decided to play target practice on innocent kids just walking down the street, and please don't say "oh that's just lies that people make up to make americans look bad". I can guarantee that it is no lie. I have seen it, with my own eyes, in person, and it's disgusting. I'm 100 percent born and raised American, but i'm also 100 percent disgusted at some of the things our government does, and let's happen.
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 02, 2008, 03:42:37
Get over it dude. Muslims have always been peaceful. Rash and floundery statements of a couple doesnt change the fact that:
1)Muslims have always been more tolerant, and more civilized, in warfare and elsewhere, than christians.
2) When the crusaders killed little Muslim, Jewish, and christian babies in Jerusalem in the name of God, the Muslims didnt go killing little christian babies in europe. Not to mention their justification for their crusades being from the old testament as well as the new testament (Jesus telling his disciples to sell their cloaks for swords)
3) When christians tortured people during the inquisition(Muslims and Jews), Muslims had nothign to do with that.
4) When Jews were being persecuted in Christian europe for hundreds of years, they were protected and treated with dignity in the Islamic world.
5) And of course now, when the Christian dominated 'United States' invades two nations, justifying their invasions with lies and deceits, killing thousands of military and civilian, where is the Muslims fault in that?
LOL what can I say, ........you live in a dreamworld Neo. Muslims peacefull.......in your dreams...burning embassies and killing demonstrating, threatening violence and inihilation, to protest being called Violent.
Get a grip ...........
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 16, 2008, 16:26:16
LOL what can I say, ........you live in a dreamworld Neo. Muslims peacefull.......in your dreams...burning embassies and killing demonstrating, threatening violence and inihilation, to protest being called Violent.
Get a grip ...........
you get a grip, you brainwashed media worshipping, pagan.
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 19, 2008, 22:07:17
you get a grip, you brainwashed media worshipping, pagan.
Oh my the oh so peaceful Muslim are on a rampage, it starts with name calling, personal abuse of anyone who disagrees and then soon after comes the aggression...........don't you see that you are confirming my opinion and absolutely contradicting yourself.......I guess not.
For you I will always be just that a brainwashed media worshiping pagan an infidel and Islam knows what to do with such people . The Koran says it clear for all to understand:
Sura 2:187-189 "And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked."
2:190-292 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."
2:193 "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."
2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein."
2:244 "Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return."
So what are you going to say Osama ...........that I have misunderstood the meaning of these Suras.....kill does not mean kill it is translated wrong it really means cuddle......what is your explanation.
I know what you will say. Nothing. You will make a mental note that here is someone who cannot be fooled with all your softsoap, and I personally think you will stop talking to me and continue your peace propaganda baloney and hope I will just go away. Dont you see it, you are exposed for what you are in your heart.
hello, I don't want to get into current politics, but just want to say that I know for sure muslims invaded most African countries, converting people to islam by force. Many ancient churches were burnt down and several people killed by this army in Ethiopia, which is the only country the area that hasn't been entirely converted to islam. The muslim army marched through the country, coverting all of Somalia, some parts of Ethiopia, Sudan etc etc.
Look up your history, you will find it there. This is fact.
No culture or religion is better than any other. All have their black marks of atrocity in history, and all have a piece of wisdom to share, so this argument is moot.
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 19, 2008, 23:40:25
Oh my the oh so peaceful Muslim are on a rampage, it starts with name calling, personal abuse of anyone who disagrees and then soon after comes the aggression...........don't you see that you are confirming my opinion and absolutely contradicting yourself.......I guess not.
For you I will always be just that a brainwashed media worshiping pagan an infidel and Islam knows what to do with such people . The Koran says it clear for all to understand:
Sura 2:187-189 "And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked."
2:190-292 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."
2:193 "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."
2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein."
2:244 "Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return."
So what are you going to say Osama ...........that I have misunderstood the meaning of these Suras.....kill does not mean kill it is translated wrong it really means cuddle......what is your explanation.
I know what you will say. Nothing. You will make a mental note that here is someone who cannot be fooled with all your softsoap, and I personally think you will stop talking to me and continue your peace propaganda baloney and hope I will just go away. Dont you see it, you are exposed for what you are in your heart.
the first verses you quoted, are actually the second verses you quoted, except slyly taking out the part:
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." [2:190]
whcih would clarify that the "killing" is done to those who are fighting.
Lets compare these verses to the Old Testament which you Christians believe in :
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
[Numbers 3:17-17]
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'
; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
[Luke 22:36-36]
I've never denied here that Muslims have killed. EVeryone has. And Ive never denied that jihaad is part of Islam. The point is.
Muslims
are
more
civilized
than
you.
k,
have a good day.
-Abu-Usaama
Quote from: Venus_Goddess_of_Love on April 20, 2008, 16:31:37
hello, I don't want to get into current politics, but just want to say that I know for sure muslims invaded most African countries, converting people to islam by force. Many ancient churches were burnt down and several people killed by this army in Ethiopia, which is the only country the area that hasn't been entirely converted to islam. The muslim army marched through the country, coverting all of Somalia, some parts of Ethiopia, Sudan etc etc.
Look up your history, you will find it there. This is fact.
Actually the king of ethiopia converted to Islam during the time of the Prophet sws.
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 19, 2008, 23:40:25
Oh my the oh so peaceful Muslim are on a rampage, it starts with name calling, personal abuse of anyone who disagrees and then soon after comes the aggression...........don't you see that you are confirming my opinion and absolutely contradicting yourself.......I guess not.
Oh yeah. Name-calling doesnt mean murder/killing. Only a barbaric western individual who cant control himself would kill someone because he doesnt like them.
K thnx,
Abu-Usaama
"aww, it's all just a bunch o' hooey."
-A
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 21, 2008, 00:07:38
Muslims are more civilized than you.
have a good day.
-Abu-Usaama
LOL i mean .....thats fantastic....you crack me up Osama. Here is the definition of Civilized
civ·i·lized (sv-lzd)
adj.
1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.
1 General Musharaf of pakistan in the following article says
"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.
President Musharraf then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.
While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.
the entire article is here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1824455.stm
As far as having a civilized culture read the following article
Ethics and Corruption in Muslim Countries: Fact versus Fiction?
the link is here
http://makkah.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/ethics-and-corruption-in-muslim-countries-fact-versus-fiction/
2 and 3. As far as "Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable" give me a break you are so far behind and so barbaric that it defies common sense. Do I really have to include links to comment on this absurd claim
lets see ....ummmm how about this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs
oops was that YOU I saw there Osama
As far as being refined and cultured..........hahahaha I mean ....what planet are mailing from. The FACT remain that the Muslim world is barbaric uncivilized with laws and practices that strive horribly against human right. But I would guess you have never LIVED in a Muslim country.......all you have is the word of your Imam and the history books, the great dreams of Islam during its heyday the Islamic golden age.
Today in this world the Muslim world is in turmoil and stinks to the high heaven of corruption barbary ignorance illiteracy and fanaticism, and the fact that you cant see this does not exactly make you seem too intelligent either
Besides that just drop your comments of the Bible, you cannot defend your own barbaric religion by attacking the Old testament, we are not talking about the Jews we are talking about YOU and Islam.
k, Osama ?
You have a good day too my little friend.
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 21, 2008, 00:09:21
Actually the king of ethiopia converted to Islam during the time of the Prophet sws.
Which one? Names and dates please. Meantime, enjoy this reading from Wikipedia
When Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi became Sultan of Adal he united the Arab tribes of Somalia, as well as the Oromo and the Afar. Ahmad initiated a jihad against Dawit II, Emperor of Ethiopia in 1527. He was supported in his cause by several Falashas and Orthodox Ethiopians who opposed Dawit II's rule.
Course of the war
In 1529 the forces under Imam Ahmad, defeated a larger Ethiopian army at the Battle of Shimbra Kure. This victory came at heavy cost, but it solidified the Muslim morale, providing proof that they could stand up to the large Ethiopian army.
The victories that gave the followers of Imam Ahmad the upper hand came in 1531. The first was at Antukyah, where canon-fire at the start of the battle panicked the Ethiopian soldiers. The second was on 28 October at Amba Sel, when troops under the Imam not only defeated but dispersed the Ethiopian army and captured items of the Imperial regalia. These victories allowed the Muslims to enter the Ethiopian highlands, where they began to
sack and burn numerous churches, including Atronsa Maryam where the remains of several Emperors had been interred.[1]
The country was looted by the Ahmad's forces, who destroyed several Christian monuments and oppressed the non-Muslim Amhara and Tigray.Dawit II died in 1540 and his heir was captured by the Arabs; the Empress was unable to react as she was besieged in the capital. In 1543 the Ethiopian guerrillas were able to
defeat the Muslims with the help of the Portuguese navy, which brought 400 musketeers and blocked supplies from the Ottoman Empire from reaching Adal. In 1543 Ahmad died in the Battle of Wayna Daga.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian-Adal_War
Also look up: http://www.ethiopiantreasures.toucansurf.com/pages/rel-war.htm
"Hey! I refuse to play your Chinese food MIND GAMES!"
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 21, 2008, 05:32:33
LOL i mean .....thats fantastic....you crack me up Osama. Here is the definition of Civilized
civ·i·lized (sv-lzd)
adj.
1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.
1 General Musharaf of pakistan in the following article says
"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.
Besides that just drop your comments of the Bible, you cannot defend your own barbaric religion by attacking the Old testament, we are not talking about the Jews we are talking about YOU and Islam.
k, Osama ?
You have a good day too my little friend.
1) the Muslims invented algebra and are the pioneers of Medicine, the origin of the belief in heliocentricity as well as the earth's spherical shape.
In the 11th century, Muslim astronomers began questioning the Ptolemaic system, beginning with Ibn al-Haytham, and they were the first to conduct elaborate experiments related to astronomical phenomena, beginning with Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's introduction of the experimental method into astronomy.[83] Many of them made changes and corrections to the Ptolemaic model and proposed alternative non- Ptolemaic models within a geocentric framework. In particular, the corrections and critiques of al-Battani, Ibn al-Haytham, and Averroes, and the non-Ptolemaic models of the Maragha astronomers, Nasir al-Din al-Tusi (Tusi-couple), Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi (Urdi lemma), and Ibn al-Shatir, were later adapted into the heliocentric Copernican model,[84][85] and that Copernicus' arguments for the Earth's rotation were similar to those of al-Tusi and Ali al-Qushji.[86] Some have referred to the achievements of the Maragha school as a "Maragha Revolution", "Maragha School Revolution", or "Scientific Revolution before the Renaissance".[11]
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
The Muslims understand what it means to fear God and be conscious of Him. To worship Him and none else. To work for the Hereafter as opposed to this transitory life.
2. Muslim societies, even at their farthest away from Islam (like many societies in the Muslim world today) are still 100 times more humane than Western societies.
1. Serial Killing/torture killing is an inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.
2. Public acceptance of Fornication/illicit behavior, homosexuality, adultery is inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.
3. Safety and security for women is scarce in any Western country at times of peace. A woman can barely go out at at night alone in America without fearing harassment. In Muslim societies a woman is safe and secure, and knows she wont be harassed/raped.
4. Atheism is an inherently western phenomena, and is rare in the Muslim world.
5. Sadistic crimes committed at all ages are inherently western phenomena and do not happen in the Muslim world.
Example: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-72952193.html
WOODBRIDGE - A 10-year-old boy was accused Thursday of luring a 3- year-old boy from a library, beating him with a bat, sexually assaulting him, and dumping him in a ditch.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/06/infant.killed.ap/index.html?eref=rss_us
LAUDERHILL, Florida (AP) -- A 12-year-old boy beat a toddler to death with a baseball bat because she was crying while he was trying to watch TV, authorities said.
A society that produces children like this isnt "civilized" but deep in the woes of materialism and barbarity.
Another look into your "civilized" societies:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3286721.stm
"My friend enjoyed dying, death. I only waited horrified for the end after doing the deed. It took so terribly long "
Armin Meiwes
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/13/germany.cannibal/index.html
Neighbours said they found the story difficult to comprehend. One said: "It was sort of clear to us that he had a different perspective on life than we did but he was a normal person, to speak to him, to drink a glass of beer with him, just like you and me."
Another:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=man-cooks-and-eats-girlfriend-&method=full&objectid=17963137&siteid=94762-name_page.html
A FORMER soldier cooked his girlfriend in their apartment above a voodoo shop, ate her, and then jumped to his death.
Her legs and feet were in pans. The rest of her body was in rubbish bags in the fridge at the apartment in New Orleans, Louisiana.
And Another:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/06/texas.slaying.ap/index.html?eref=rss_mostpopular
TYLER, Texas (AP) -- A man killed his girlfriend, then filleted and cooked parts of her body before calling police to tell them what he was doing, authorities said Sunday.
Christopher Lee McCuin, 25, called 911 on Saturday and told an emergency dispatcher he had killed Jana Shearer, 21, and was boiling her body parts at his mother's home, said Smith County Sheriff J.B. Smith.
When authorities arrived at the home, they found Shearer's mutilated body, one ear boiling in a pot of water on the stove and a fork sticking out of some human flesh sitting on a plate on the kitchen table.
Just a daily example of "civilized" westerners.
3. Islam is the religion which gives the most emphasis and importance to manners. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O5yll9RpCM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ewltD6SAz0&feature=related
"Refined" American character(WARNING: VIDEOS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVsD3p5cxAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwVC3ZASmOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66PJlGN6rzQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX79B-bVdYM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSCs52dVJu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgA8CW6k5E
K thnx,
-Abu-Usaama
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 21, 2008, 19:04:49
OK lets just answer these claims one by one.
1) the Muslims invented algebra and are the pioneers of Medicine, the origin of the belief in heliocentricity as well as the earth's spherical shape.
In the 11th century, Muslim astronomers began questioning the Ptolemaic system, beginning with Ibn al-Haytham, and they were the first to conduct elaborate experiments related to astronomical phenomena, beginning with Abū al-Rayhān al-Bīrūnī's introduction of the experimental method into astronomysee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
This has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject, whether Muslims are more civilized today. It an retiration of claims concerning the PAST.
The Muslims understand what it means to fear God and be conscious of Him. To worship Him and none else. To work for the Hereafter as opposed to this transitory life.
This has nothing to do with being civilized as per the definition of the word.
2. Muslim societies, even at their farthest away from Islam (like many societies in the Muslim world today) are still 100 times more humane than Western societies.
1. Serial Killing/torture killing is an inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.
This is ludicrous. Here is a couple of very brief account of Muhammeds behaviour as confirmed in the Koran and the Hadith this is by no means the only examples. Aside from that there present day behaviour by various radical groups, beheadings suicide bombings etc. as well as public rape
http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/07/02/31654.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/torture.html
During the year 628 A.D., eight men from the clan of Uraynah, came to Medina. They became Muslims. While they were there they got sick. Muhammad prescribed a medicine for them: he told them to drink camel milk and camel urine. After the men got better, they brutally murdered the shepherd of the camels, stole the camels, and tried to escape. Muhammad sent an armed party of 20 men after them. They were caught and brought back to Medina. There, Muhammad pronounced their judgment: their eyes were branded with hot irons, then plucked out, their hands and feet were cut off, and then, while still alive, they were thrown out on the hot desert to die.
Muhammad aggressively attacked several groups of people around him. One of these groups were the Jews of Khaibar. Muhammad believed God led him to attack Khaibar. After Khaibar was conquered, the Jews were either enslaved, executed, or allowed to live there provided they gave the Muslims one half of all they produced. One of Muhammad's most brutal acts involved a prisoner named Kinana. Kinana was one of the leaders of Khaibar. Muhammad wanted him to reveal where some buried treasure was hidden. Kinana refused. Muhammad had him tortured to the point of death, then had him beheaded.
2. Public acceptance of Fornication/illicit behavior, homosexuality, adultery is inherently western phenomena, and rarely happens in the Muslim world.
3. Safety and security for women is scarce in any Western country at times of peace. A woman can barely go out at at night alone in America without fearing harassment. In Muslim societies a woman is safe and secure, and knows she wont be harassed/raped.
These claims are silly there are no statistics to back this up, it only shows that you are ignorant of life in the world in a broader sense. It also shows that you must absolutely be living in a Mideastern country and have been influenced by the propaganda of Islam. Rape is sanctioned in Islam,
Rape
Islamic criminal jurisprudence does not discriminate between genders in punishments for crimes.[citation needed] In case of sexual crimes such as zina (fornication), however, women may be found guilty more easily than men, because of the visible evidence of pregnancy; without a pregancy, four witnesses are required to file a zina case.[45] The difficulty of prosecuting rapists and the possibility of prosecution for women who allege rape has been of special interest to activists for Muslim women's rights.[46] In the past decades there have been several high profile cases of pregnant women prosecuted for zina who claim to have been raped.[47][48][49] [50]
The overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars believe that there is no punishment for a woman coerced into having sex.[51] According to a Sunni hadith, the punishment for committing rape is death, there is no sin on the victim, nor is there any worldly punishment ascribed to her.[52] However, the stringent requirements for proof of rape under some interpretations of Islamic law, combined with cultural attitudes regarding rape in some parts of the Muslim world, result in few rape cases being reported; even the cases brought forward typically result in minimal punishment for offenders or severe punishment for victims.[53] It can be difficult to seek punishment against rapists, because a zina case cannot be brought without four witnesses, even for rape cases.
4. Atheism is an inherently western phenomena, and is rare in the Muslim world.
Your assumption is that civilization can only be attained by faith in Allah. This is not the case, besides that there is capital punishment for being an atheist in some Muslim countries, and social rejection in others, ......do you think that atheists are speaking up a lot in such places. I should think not
5. Sadistic crimes committed at all ages are inherently western phenomena and do not happen in the Muslim world.
Then you use some examples of crimes in the west, but how can you do that. You say that the acts of certain terrorists is not a reflection of how Muslims live yet you say that the acts of a few wacked out insane people is a reflection of the west. Not professional.
all in all it is evident that you have no clue of life in the west. I actually thought you were British at one point but if you were you would not have posted like you did but you would have known the silliness of your arguments.
2. 1. there is a difference between capital punishment, and killing for the sake of sadism.
2. 3. Anyone can write whatever they want on wikipedia, their word is no better than mine. the punishment for rape is death. in fact, the Taliban (May Allah preserve them) established themselves in response to men raping women. They gained faimed and popularity initially through their establishing the hudood (Islamic penal code) on the rapists (by killing them.) I trust what Muslims relate to me because I know they are trustworthy people in comparison to most non-muslims.
2. 4. Yes, Faith in God is a condition for civilization. Faith in God is a natural instinct. In fact, new research states that faith in God is ingrained in our biological makeup. The very fact that in America , britain etc. faith in God is openly opposed and doubted is a sign of a certain hopeslessness and twistedness in these societies and a subconscious worship of false idols that these societies set up to confuse people.
2.5. Actually, I'm American. I was born and raised in California to a Jewish mother and palestinian father in a moderately secular environment. I was born in the "ideal" suburban community.
I know the barbarity and desperation of American society because Ive seen it first hand, and I know the purity and peaceful nature of Muslims because Ive seen it first hand.
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 22, 2008, 14:06:46
2. 1. there is a difference between capital punishment, and killing for the sake of sadism.
2. 3. Anyone can write whatever they want on wikipedia, their word is no better than mine. the punishment for rape is death. in fact, the Taliban (May Allah preserve them) established themselves in response to men raping women. They gained faimed and popularity initially through their establishing the hudood (Islamic penal code) on the rapists (by killing them.) I trust what Muslims relate to me because I know they are trustworthy people in comparison to most non-muslims.
2. 4. Yes, Faith in God is a condition for civilization. Faith in God is a natural instinct. In fact, new research states that faith in God is ingrained in our biological makeup. The very fact that in America , britain etc. faith in God is openly opposed and doubted is a sign of a certain hopeslessness and twistedness in these societies and a subconscious worship of false idols that these societies set up to confuse people.
2.5. Actually, I'm American. I was born and raised in California to a Jewish mother and palestinian father in a moderately secular environment. I was born in the "ideal" suburban community.
I know the barbarity and desperation of American society because Ive seen it first hand, and I know the purity and peaceful nature of Muslims because Ive seen it first hand.
So let me get this straight ....you have actually lived in a Muslim country?
Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.
Consider the American system of capitalism. It is a widely accepted fact that the middle class is disappearing as the economy worsens. The middle class gets no assistance from the government. Those who are considered middle class struggle. They make too much to qualify for government assistance and too little to set any of their earnings aside. The government has a lot more control over the poor that it assists. The rich are the ones calling the shots, and there are fewer and fewer of them all the time, and those who remain are getting more and more power.
Consider the crippling effect that corporate America has had on our legal system. Why does our health system require expensive insurance from companies who may at any time choose not to pay for one's cancer treatments or vitally important operations? Why do we pay house insurance, car insurance, medical and dental insurance, put money away for retirement, federal and state income taxes, social security (which is failing miserably, by the way), soaring gas prices, electric, water, and oil? And on top of that, people pay for cable TV, internet, phones, and other services, IF they can even afford them.
Is it not obvious that our capitalist system benefits from people who pile on their responsibilities to someone else? This is what creates jobs, after all- supply and demand.
After 9/11, I was sickened by how quickly corporations were making money off of peoples' patriotism fad. Our country, said to be civilized by some, is without morals, and what "words of wisdom" are spoken have only face value, because those who speak them really have selfish intentions of gaining positions of power. Their philosophy is that the masses are cattle to be herded and manipulated. I draw this conclusion from my own personal observations of daily life here.
The greenhouse gas crisis is going to be VERY profitable for those oil tycoons. They have the money to buy out every solar field, wind farm, and water turbine in the country, if they wanted to, and they will charge a lot of money for their services. This will give them great leverage in the legislative decisions made in Washington DC.
So what does all this mean? It means capitalism is slavery, which is uncivilized. I would rather live in a cave and do my own hunting, farming, and gathering. Of course, doing that in this country is illegal, as all buildings and shelters legally require electricity and running water.
So while I do not disagree that there are problems and issues in the Islamic world, I will never call America a civilized country.
Wow, that was great! I guess anger management really does work!
Ambient Sound
The very fact that you know all this, that you can express it openly, without fear of repercussions makes you part of a civilized society. Like it or not. In Muslim countries there is very little free expression, sharia law, no rights for women who are owned by their husbands, and corruption and all manner of uncivilized things going on. Cutting off hands of a thief, punishing the girl who has been raped rather than the rapist, honor killings, suicide jihadist warriors, kids being told that they get to heaven if they kill Jews and on and on.
Now I only object to the fact that this guy who claims to be American call Muslim countries more civilized than the west. It is absurd. I lived most my adult life some odd 30 years in Muslim countries, I lived in Turkey Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan and I can assure you this is NOT the case.
I would suggest to Osama or whatever that he try to go live in one, or better move to one. He will be dispised for being an American and could get in real big trouble. Anyway he is a young man who loves to do these stunts loves to make these outrageous claims and he really has no idea. Besides that I very much doubt that he is telling the truth. Noone living in America would believe that American or western women cannot go out at night without fear of being right. This is a myth as you well know, yet one that is being told over and over in the mideast. They believe we have sexual relation with animals on a major scale, rape and kill women at will, and generally cook and eat our friends and neighbours. A typical line from clergy in the mideast, watch youtube.YOU know that this is silly.
I tried to define Civilized, and whether you believe that the Western civilization leaves much to be desired it a heck of a lot better than the Mideast..........believe me. I know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ
You make valid points, Mustardseed. Freedom of speech is one thing I cherish. I think it is uncivilized of our government to threaten our freedoms with stupid laws, like what Bush has done. However, I think it is civilized to defend freedom.
I know the examples of which you speak, and Iran and Afghanistan are most guilty of these things. Still, it would be foolish of me to say that I know anything about Islamic culture, since I lack experience living amongst Muslims. Therefore, I must ask Osama a few questions:
How does the nation of Islam define love?
How does the nation of Islam define freedom, and how does it regard freedom? Is it important? Why or why not?
What are the effects of fear-based reactions/decisions versus love-based reactions/decisions? How do these emotions affect people?
Why does the Nation of Islam believe homosexuality is wrong? Could there, perhaps, be a rational explanation for this, such as the prevention of spreading STDs, rather than homosexuality being an abomination? My best friends are bisexual and they are more honorable than most.
Why aren't women, the other half of humanity, treated as equals? Do you think any free-thinking woman would ever convert herself to Islam?
Mustardseed is right about women in America. They are not afraid to go out alone at night. He is also right about women in Islam. I saw live footage of the day when America liberated Afghanistan from Taliban rule. The women were so ecstatic they looked like teens at a rock concert.
One other thing I would like to say to Usaama-
All of the examples of American atrocities can be found in any culture around the world. What do you believe makes Western societies worse than other cultures?
It is a constant battle to retain one's freedom. Once you are free from having to battle others, like enemies on a conquest, you are free to battle yourself. The battle that counts most is the one that is fought within.
I rather disagree with organized religion in general. I think it causes more problems than it solves. There are too many mistakes with translations, inaccurate historical references, books that have been taken out/put in by unscrupulous tyrants, etc. along with people who interpret the texts literally and out of their historical contexts. Let's not forget that there are a few versions of the Quaran as there are with the Bible. Too many wars have been fought over religion, even between different sects of the same religion. It is ridiculous and that is why no Muslim will ever see me convert to Islam, nor will Christianity see me a Christian, nor Judaism see me as a Jew. I will not even join Hindu or Buddhism.
I follow my heart and I learn from all paths, but I forge my own.
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 22, 2008, 20:05:40
Ambient Sound
The very fact that you know all this, that you can express it openly, without fear of repercussions makes you part of a civilized society. Like it or not. In Muslim countries there is very little free expression, sharia law, no rights for women who are owned by their husbands, and corruption and all manner of uncivilized things going on. Cutting off hands of a thief, punishing the girl who has been raped rather than the rapist, honor killings, suicide jihadist warriors, kids being told that they get to heaven if they kill Jews and on and on.
Now I only object to the fact that this guy who claims to be American call Muslim countries more civilized than the west. It is absurd. I lived most my adult life some odd 30 years in Muslim countries, I lived in Turkey Iran Afghanistan and Pakistan and I can assure you this is NOT the case.
I would suggest to Osama or whatever that he try to go live in one, or better move to one. He will be dispised for being an American and could get in real big trouble. Anyway he is a young man who loves to do these stunts loves to make these outrageous claims and he really has no idea. Besides that I very much doubt that he is telling the truth. Noone living in America would believe that American or western women cannot go out at night without fear of being right. This is a myth as you well know, yet one that is being told over and over in the mideast. They believe we have sexual relation with animals on a major scale, rape and kill women at will, and generally cook and eat our friends and neighbours. A typical line from clergy in the mideast, watch youtube.YOU know that this is silly.
I tried to define Civilized, and whether you believe that the Western civilization leaves much to be desired it a heck of a lot better than the Mideast..........believe me. I know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Wrhivp7eQ
i have never personally lived in a Muslim country.
however, one of my friends lived in Jordan for 1 year (he is an American Muslim) and studied in an university there. he was not despised by anyone there and greatly praised the Muslims there in many aspects(he had criticisms as well, in some of their deviation from Islam)
I am living in America and i know in a significant portion of this country, a woman is not truly safe at night. i personally had to pick up a girl who left a house that she was about to be gangraped in, after she asked a group of men for a ride home.
additionally ive personally known a girl who was raped at the age of 11 and consequently was pregnant, and the rapist was never caught.
to be honest, Muslims do not believe that you have sex with animals on a large scale. but we know that you permit it. additionally we know you dont rape and kill women at will, but we know you permit situations in which such instances may be led to occur. additionally, we know you generally dont cook and eat your neighbors, but you allow a tradition of sadism and such "fantasy discussions" to take place without reprecussion.
Quote from: AmbientSound on April 22, 2008, 19:19:49
Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.
Consider the American system of capitalism. It is a widely accepted fact that the middle class is disappearing as the economy worsens. The middle class gets no assistance from the government. Those who are considered middle class struggle. They make too much to qualify for government assistance and too little to set any of their earnings aside. The government has a lot more control over the poor that it assists. The rich are the ones calling the shots, and there are fewer and fewer of them all the time, and those who remain are getting more and more power.
Consider the crippling effect that corporate America has had on our legal system. Why does our health system require expensive insurance from companies who may at any time choose not to pay for one's cancer treatments or vitally important operations? Why do we pay house insurance, car insurance, medical and dental insurance, put money away for retirement, federal and state income taxes, social security (which is failing miserably, by the way), soaring gas prices, electric, water, and oil? And on top of that, people pay for cable TV, internet, phones, and other services, IF they can even afford them.
Is it not obvious that our capitalist system benefits from people who pile on their responsibilities to someone else? This is what creates jobs, after all- supply and demand.
After 9/11, I was sickened by how quickly corporations were making money off of peoples' patriotism fad. Our country, said to be civilized by some, is without morals, and what "words of wisdom" are spoken have only face value, because those who speak them really have selfish intentions of gaining positions of power. Their philosophy is that the masses are cattle to be herded and manipulated. I draw this conclusion from my own personal observations of daily life here.
The greenhouse gas crisis is going to be VERY profitable for those oil tycoons. They have the money to buy out every solar field, wind farm, and water turbine in the country, if they wanted to, and they will charge a lot of money for their services. This will give them great leverage in the legislative decisions made in Washington DC.
So what does all this mean? It means capitalism is slavery, which is uncivilized. I would rather live in a cave and do my own hunting, farming, and gathering. Of course, doing that in this country is illegal, as all buildings and shelters legally require electricity and running water.
So while I do not disagree that there are problems and issues in the Islamic world, I will never call America a civilized country.
Bravo!
Quote from: AmbientSound on April 23, 2008, 01:15:01
You make valid points, Mustardseed. Freedom of speech is one thing I cherish. I think it is uncivilized of our government to threaten our freedoms with stupid laws, like what Bush has done. However, I think it is civilized to defend freedom.
I know the examples of which you speak, and Iran and Afghanistan are most guilty of these things. Still, it would be foolish of me to say that I know anything about Islamic culture, since I lack experience living amongst Muslims. Therefore, I must ask Osama a few questions:
How does the nation of Islam define love?
How does the nation of Islam define freedom, and how does it regard freedom? Is it important? Why or why not?
What are the effects of fear-based reactions/decisions versus love-based reactions/decisions? How do these emotions affect people?
Why does the Nation of Islam believe homosexuality is wrong? Could there, perhaps, be a rational explanation for this, such as the prevention of spreading STDs, rather than homosexuality being an abomination? My best friends are bisexual and they are more honorable than most.
Why aren't women, the other half of humanity, treated as equals? Do you think any free-thinking woman would ever convert herself to Islam?
Mustardseed is right about women in America. They are not afraid to go out alone at night. He is also right about women in Islam. I saw live footage of the day when America liberated Afghanistan from Taliban rule. The women were so ecstatic they looked like teens at a rock concert.
One other thing I would like to say to Usaama-
All of the examples of American atrocities can be found in any culture around the world. What do you believe makes Western societies worse than other cultures?
It is a constant battle to retain one's freedom. Once you are free from having to battle others, like enemies on a conquest, you are free to battle yourself. The battle that counts most is the one that is fought within.
I rather disagree with organized religion in general. I think it causes more problems than it solves. There are too many mistakes with translations, inaccurate historical references, books that have been taken out/put in by unscrupulous tyrants, etc. along with people who interpret the texts literally and out of their historical contexts. Let's not forget that there are a few versions of the Quaran as there are with the Bible. Too many wars have been fought over religion, even between different sects of the same religion. It is ridiculous and that is why no Muslim will ever see me convert to Islam, nor will Christianity see me a Christian, nor Judaism see me as a Jew. I will not even join Hindu or Buddhism.
I follow my heart and I learn from all paths, but I forge my own.
Secularism is the disease that i believe is most abhorent.
there are different types of love according to the teachings of Islam.
one type is the kind the God places between a husband and his wife:
And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect. [Qur'an 30:21 interpretation of meaning]
another kind is the relationship of love between God and His servants. One of God's names is Al-Wudood which means "The Most Loving"
"And He is Oft-Forgiving, full of love (Al-Wudood)" [Qur'an 85:14]
additionally a believer is to love God more than anything else.
As for love for non-believers, then this issue may fall into two categories.
1) natural love
2) honourable abhorrance.
one may love a person out of one's concern for them and natural instincts, but one must abhor them for their beliefs if they are polytheistic.
As for freedom, this particular quote from Sayyid Qutb's (May God have mercy on him) work, Milestones (http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/chapter_4.asp)
should be sufficient:
"This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth. In the words of the Qur'an:
"He alone is God in the heavens and in the earth." (43:84)
"The command belongs to God alone. He commands you not to worship anyone except Him. This is the right way of life." (12: 40)
"Say: O People of the Book, come to what is common between us: that we will not worship anyone except God, and will not associate anything with Him, and will not take lords from among ourselves besides God; and if they turn away then tell them to bear witness that we are those who have submitted to God." (2: 64)
The way to establish God's rule on earth is not that some consecrated people - the priests - be given the authority to rule, as was the case with the rule of the Church, nor that some spokesmen of God become rulers, as is the case in a 'theocracy'. To establish God's rule means that His laws be enforced and that the final decision in all affairs be according to these laws.
"
As for the idea of freedom of religion:
"It is not the intention of Islam to force its beliefs on people, but Islam is not merely 'belief'. As we have pointed out, Islam is a declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men. Thus it strives from the beginning to abolish all those systems and governments which are based on the rule of man over men and the servitude of one human being to another. When Islam releases people from this political pressure and presents to them its spiritual message, appealing to their reason, it gives them complete freedom to accept or not to accept its beliefs. However, this freedom does not mean that they can make their desires their gods, or that they can choose to remain in the servitude of other human beings, making some men lords over others. Whatever system is to be established in the world ought to be on the authority of God, deriving its laws from Him alone. Then every individual is free, under the protection of this universal system, to adopt any belief he wishes to adopt. This is the only way in which 'the religion' can be purified for God alone. The word 'religion' includes more than belief; 'religion' actually means a way of life, and in Islam this is based on belief. But in an Islamic system there is room for all kinds of people to follow their own beliefs, while obeying the laws of the country which are themselves based on the Divine authority."
Our problem with "secularism" and western forms of "democracy" is that they are not truly free systems. A system in which man is the one obeyed is a system of enslavement. A system in which the unfathomable God is obeyed alone, is a free system. Capitalism is just another manifestation of slavery to wealth, men, and corporations, in that such can legislate how they please, barring people from following God alone.
Worship in Islam is seen as consisting of three parts in balance: love, hope, and fear. if one's worship is completely based on love, without hope or fear, then this is inadequate. and if ones worship is completely based on hope (for God's reward[paradise]), without love or fear, then this is inadequate. and of worship is solely based on fear(of God's punishment), without love or hope, then this inadequate.
Homosexuality is an abomination. it goes against the natural ordination that God has decreed of human beings. STD's is a result of illicit sexual behavior, as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained:
Abdullaah bin 'Umar may Allaah be pleased with him reported that: "The Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) approached us once and said: "It is never that immorality (i.e. adultery, fornication and sodomy) prevails in a people to the extent that they do it openly, except that there will appear in them diseases that were unknown to their predecessors."" [Al-Haakim]
this is how it has occurred. AID's is a fairly recent disease.
However, the absence of diseases does not mean the absence of sinfulness for the deed (homosexuality [or fornication]). Homosexuality, in particular, is seen as an perversion. A mention of the story of Lot in the Qur'an demonstrates this:
"The prople of Lout (Lot) (those dwelt in the towns of Sodom in Palestine) belied the Messengers.
When their brother Lout (Lot) said to them: "Will you not fear Allah and obey Him?
"Verily! I am a trustworthy Messenger to you.
"So fear Allah, keep your duty to Him, and obey me.
"No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message ), my reward is only from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
"Go you in unto the males of mankind,
"And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!"
[26:160-165]
God created women for us to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden.
The majority of converts to Islam in the 20th/21st century are women.
The media shows you some, yet hides most.
All the examples of American atrocities can NOT be found in every culture around the world. America is the only country to have ever used atomic bombs on people (heroshima and nagasaki). America firebombed tokyo , used flamethrowers in war. Muslim atrocities have never ever matched with atrocities attributed to America.
I think you should not stroke your paint too far. you should consider Islam. Your biases are really just that, biases.
Say: "Verily, Allah's Guidance is the only guidance, and we have been commanded to submit (ourselves) to the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists); [Qur'an 6:71]
Hi Osama
You seem to have plenty of time on your hands, something I do not. In this short post I shall attempt to explain my point of view and will include a few clips that I would ask you to check out.
Our disagreement seem to stem from a few things. Firstly we seem to disagree on the definition of "Civilized". I believe that it is possible to be civilized WITHOUT embracing Islam, and you believe that it is impossible to be civilized without following Islam.
If this is the case we need to define the word we are discussing.......... Civilized. If to you being civilised means being Muslim, then we have nothing to discuss, if we decide to use the dictionary definition of civilized we can discuss this issue.
Some of the most common ways a Muslim manages to keep the upper hand in a discussion such as this, is to attack the religion or political system of his/her opponent, thus sending the discussion into gridlock and as a result, Islam is never really discussed. The other way is by answering with very long post, quotes and counter claims WITHOUT answering the issues brought forth, which has the same effect has the same effect. This is very clearly seen in the first Video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYB4pG3kHIY
The answer to the Immam, is that while there has been various wars and atrocities committed by a multitude of different people throughout the history of the world, Islam is the ONLY religion, and the KORAN is the only sacred book which contains COMMANDMENTS for its followers to kill the ones who believe differently. You will naturally say that the jewish Old Testament contains similar commandments, but it does not. The commandment was for a specific region and people, the Cananites and whether oine believes it actually happened or not, it was NOT a commandment to spread the beliefs of the Jews to the entire world by violence. Islam is unique in this.
Secondly I would ask you to consider this. If there had been no America YOU would probably not have been born. For sure you would not be where you are. It is the American Civilization who has made it possible for you to be free. You have never had to suffer poverty, injustice and discrimination like you would have, had you been born to a Jewish mother and a Palestinian father in the mideast. You would be outcasts if you had tried to settle in a Muslim country.
It is normal for a young person to rebel against the norm. It is hardwired into us. Many young Muslims therefore in Islamic countries, have therefor been caught up in this religious fervor, and radicalized to satisfy their youthful dreams. Nothing wrong with that. Youth thirsts after righteousness. In America it is a similar mecanism. Young Muslims rebel against the sneaking secularism that is eating away at their parents generation, many of whom are only Muslim in word. They have taught you that it is possible to live in peace in a forign land have American friends etc something the Koran strictly forbids, and so you rebel as well. Yet you have also been living in America, and know its evil. Since you see the world around you as horrible at times, you have bought into the notion that if only Islam would be ruling all this would end.
In this you make a mistake. I have lived a lifetime in Muslim countries and believe me it is WORSE. This is very hard for you to believe but it is the truth. Since you have not, you do not have the ability to discuss this issue, because all you can do is show me articles, sermons etc of how things should be in a perfect world, made by people who has it their vested interest in making you believe that ISLAM is the answer to all lifes problems...........it is NOT. You will see this as you grow older.
I find it hard to discuss with you, not because I do not want to hear your points of view, but because you make claims you can not verify, and expect them to be taken for reality. You might as well say that all roads are paved with gold in the mideast and stick to it. People have told you, you have heard it on the YOUTUBE, you read articles about it on the net, and a friend even brought you back a small piece of it as proof.
A small amount of Gold does not mean that the roads are paved with it however but you have CHOSEN to believe in your teachers and friends, rather than in those who tell you the brutal truth......it is a lie. It crushes you, and in your mind you counciously make a choice to perpetrate the lies by defending them, quoting all the same sermons and tube clips you were "fed" and attacking viciously anyone who claims to know better, anyone who have seen ISLAM in real life.
This is your choice and such is life, people do this in totalitarian systems all the time, simply because they are afraid of facing up to the social disaster of being ostracized by friends and family.
BUT remember this........you are accountable for the truth. Never tell someone that something is true before you have seen it with your own eyes. Stay open and use your common sense, weigh everything you tell others on a scale of truth......cause if you do not you lead them astray into darkness and lies.
Think about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&feature=related
This clip says it all, very interesting, I would like to ask your comment on it.
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 23, 2008, 06:25:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WLoasfOLpQ&feature=related
This clip says it all, very interesting, I would like to ask your comment on it.
its dumb.
well thank you Osama, your comment says it all. LOL all it does is confirm my opinion that you are indeed very young and rather "uncivilized".
For your information it is good manners refined and "civilized", to attempt to have a conversation, an actual exchange of ideas, with people you are at odds with.
To comment by saying "its dumb" is rather unrefined ignorant and quite offensive. No further explanation no reasoning just the same old re reiteration of former sentiments.
It confirms to me that you are quiet an ignorant and rather stupid, yes stupid, young man.
stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
But then again how can I claim such things, you are by your own admission a Muslim and superior to infidels like myself, more civilized.
And to all of you out there who perchance happen on this exchange of words.......make up your own minds
Thankyou
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 23, 2008, 17:30:04
well thank you Osama, your comment says it all. LOL all it does is confirm my opinion that you are indeed very young and rather "uncivilized".
For your information it is good manners refined and "civilized", to attempt to have a conversation, an actual exchange of ideas, with people you are at odds with.
To comment by saying "its dumb" is rather unrefined ignorant and quite offensive. No further explanation no reasoning just the same old re reiteration of former sentiments.
It confirms to me that you are quiet an ignorant and rather stupid, yes stupid, young man.
stu·pid (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
But then again how can I claim such things, you are by your own admission a Muslim and superior to infidels like myself, more civilized.
And to all of you out there who perchance happen on this exchange of words.......make up your own minds
Thankyou
well, good luck with your pathetic existence
Usaama, what is secularism? I am not sure I understand your definition of this word.
I believe it is important for people to live in a FREE society where they agree to follow certain rules, laws, and codes. We have to go on what we have in common, what we are collectively willing to tolerate, and what we are not. Here in America, we elect people who are good at solving issues that we collectively face. We elect these people to help us come to a decision about what method should be used to deal with a problem such as a natural disaster, economic problems, what to do if our country is attacked, etc. It is not like being ruled by a monarch, whose word is law. I think this is where misunderstandings are found with America to the Islamic people.
Our government is divided into the federal level, the state level, the county level, and the municipal level. This is to ensure that groups of people can better customize laws for their region and community, where they may have distinguishing preferences or beliefs that set them apart from the rest of the state or country. it is really a brilliant system, if you examine it. The only issue lately is that we have given the federal government more power than it really should have. As you may have read on our dollar bill, "In God we trust," and in our Pledge of Allegiance, you may recall the phrase "One nation, under God." Thus, Islam cannot claim that the United States is enslaved in this way. Since Islamic nations also use monetary systems to deal with trade and exchange, it is not free by MY own definition either.
We all pay our taxes, even though we don't want to. We do it because we recognize that they go to a greater good, that the money is being used to benefit everyone. That is not to say that government is without corruption, as I'm sure you are aware. I am simply pointing out that taxes fund our schools, our police officers, the maintenance of roads and highways, etc. EVERYONE uses some combination of these services, and is therefore responsible for helping out with them.
As for freedom, I do not see how servitude (as opposed to slavery) causes one to be without freedom. If I am serving the people around me, it's because I wish to improve their situation in some way, not because I've got somebody with a whip cracking at my back. If I free myself from serving my fellow man to serve Allah, then how am I free? I'm just replacing one party I am serving with another. Not only that, but I am serving one instead of many. It is no different than moving from one nation to another (Islam is a nation, is it not?). Thus, I fail to see how freedom remains freedom in the Islamic faith. It is not in the nature of a human being to worship a god that someone is trying to force them to believe in. Those who do convert are just lying to their oppressors to stay alive. I am certain that they continue their original religious practices in the privacy of their own homes- unless Muslim barbarians come barging in every now and then just to check on them.
By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.
I very strongly believe that one should contribute as often as possible to the well-being of their community. Now, here is a little secret very few people realize: When you are spreading the good energy and deeds to others, be sure to include yourself. That way, everyone, including you, benefits, and nobody is left worrying about you. It is a greater service to do this than to only serve others.
There is a difference between servitude and slavery. Slavery is what happens when someone makes demands of another, without offering something in return, and threatens them in some way, either by jeopardizing their health or that of their loved ones (well well, sounds a bit like terrorism, doesn't it?). Terrorism is attempted slavery. They kill innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems, and they refuse to understand that free will is SACRED, even in their religion. They do not reason, they kill and make demands. THAT is not civilized behavior.
As for polytheists, I know a couple and they are decent people. I do not abhor them, as I see no logic in doing so. I fraternize with and befriend those who practice magic, Druids, Sages, Witches and Wizards alike. I am more likely to befriend these kinds of people than a Southern Baptist priest or a Mormon priest. I abhor authoritarian religion. If two of my friends cannot get along with each other, I make sure that I do not put them in each others' company and both remain my friends.
Aren't Muslims polygamists in the afterlife? And who ever said the 72 virgins were women? You can't get a disease in heaven.
"God created women for us to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden."
I strongly disagree with this statement, first because homosexuality is not perverse (because that is a subjective viewpoint), and second because it does not answer my original question as to why women are not treated as equals. They have feelings, just like men, and in America, they make better students and sometimes even better leaders. They are often delicate and beautiful, sensitive, and they are happiest when they are free. I speak from first-hand observation. A woman who is free is more likely to tell you the truth and be with you because she wants to be. Women want a guy who is going to respect them and has standards, not treat them like a subordinate. I have a hard time believing that any woman in her right mind would convert to Islam, especially since she might have to endure genital mutilation. What's wrong with a woman experiencing pleasure during sex? What is the purpose of her genitalia, then, if God says "snip-snip?" Doesn't that imply that Allah is imperfect in his ability to create? Or does he just hate women so much that he creates them with this part of their body so that they can endure the agony of having it removed later on?
Here in America, women and men date each other, and have equal say in the relationship. This gives more likelihood that we will find the person who gets along with us best. The relationship is not based on some mandate that someone scribbled onto paper, it is based on the connections of the mind, body, and spirit. I seek a woman to connect with on a multitude of levels.
Is there any link between the women-converts and the country of Iran? And how do I know that the converts aren't converting because they were threatened?
Usaama, have you ever read Sun Tsu's "The Art of War?" It offers philosophies on combat. You should also look at " The Book of Five Rings," written by the legendary Japanese sword master, Musashi. It may give you a better understanding of Japan's combat mentality.
I have studied seven martial arts, some of which were so brutal I could not make the connections myself of what move to do next. But I understand now why it is necessary to know such tactics. In a violent confrontation, there is no time to think. One must act quickly and waste as little time and energy as possible when incapacitating their attacker (all honorable martial arts practice and preach never throwing the first strike, so if there is violence, it does not begin with us, it ends with us). The Chinese word "Wushu" actually translates to "the art of stopping a fight."
It was Japan that attacked America in WWII, absolutely unprovoked. The atom bomb was used for two reasons: first, to show Nazi Germany that we beat them to the development of it so that they would be far more likely to surrender, and second, so that Japan would surrender. We warned them in advance and they did nothing. They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped, remember that. We weren't out to rule over their country, we just wanted them to leave us alone and all other methods failed. Also remember the Samurai mentality of Japanese warriors. Like Islam's suicide bombers, they would crash their planes into American warships and other targets.
By a martial artist's standpoint, the Japanese delivered the first blow, and America the final blow.
I am by no means suggesting that the detonation of the atom bomb was not a horribly tragic event, but given the circumstances at the time, it was necessary.
As for other atrocities committed in America that can be found elsewhere, go visit South America and Mexico, China, Japan, Russia, just about any nation on the African continent, and Australia. Oh, let's not forget North Korea, where they FORCE Christianity on their citizens, and Iran, which will not allow women U.S. citizens to leave without their husband's permission, if the husband is an Iranian citizen (there was a movie made about this, called "Not without my daughter," and I'm sure you can find it, or parts of it, on Youtube somewhere, if you care to watch).
When it comes to the truth, there are only two things to observe, my friend: Cause and effect. I should state here that it is folly for ANY human being to even begin to say that they understand God. You don't understand God and neither do I, so why should we allow another human being to tell us about God? Just because it's in a book that someone claims to be holy doesn't make it true. I challenge you with one final question: Where is the historical evidence that Muhammed ever moved a mountain? (you may not use your book as a source unless it provides viable dates and references).
I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.
I still maintain that organized religion is a control mechanism used by the elite to manipulate the masses. Its purpose is to simply make sure that the common people of the world never unite. If Islam maintains its attitude toward infidels, then organized religion will have done what it was invented to do.
Confucious say, "Man who fart in church sit in own pew."
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 23, 2008, 17:34:44
well, good luck with your pathetic existence
You see Osama this is where you and I differ. You say you live by a book of rules that you follow, and that following these rules makes God like you better than me.Yet you are a hypocrite who claims one thing and does another.
Let me teach you a few things. First of all, Sarcasm is forbidden in Islam, did you know that.
15) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to completely abandon and shun guile, deceit, scornfulness, or sarcasm because these are unlawful. Allah Most High says, "O you who believe, let no men scorn other men, for they might well be better than they are. And let no women scorn other women, for they might well be better than they. And do not find fault with one another, or give each other insulting nicknames" (Qur'an 49:11).
Do you not find it odd that I a infidel, am the one to steer you on to the proper path. Mind your words my little friend, for in words, you show what you really are.
This is what I have against you who follow Islam and call yourselves Moslem. You are hypocrites and you are liers. Its that simple. How can you build a good society with and among people who are liers and hypocrites. You cannot, it has never been done and it will never happen. No government can ever exist in peace and no great civilization can ever be built on a lie. It is simply not possible. It defies common sense. It would mean that you would never know where you had people, it would and does create injustice and confusion on a massive scale. This is the very reason the Califate will never be a reality, and this is the reason the Muslim world ceased to exist as a power to be counted on.
Let me explain so you understand it better and think about the implications in a modern world. According to the Koran it is ok to tell lies it is in some cases even commanded. Here are some text on the Hadith
(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, "May liars be slain" (Qur'an 51:10), in which slain means "cursed" according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur'anic exegete al-Khazin notes that "May liars be cursed" originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur'anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.
(SO FAR SO GOOD OSAMA< HOWEVER>>>>)
(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one's wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, "The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory." When lying is the only way to attain one's right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary.
I believe that this mixture of lies and truth is why Islam came to an end centuries ago, and why it is never to rise again. You are untrustworthy. WE the people of other countries unfettered by your book now knows that to us you are liers, you are sanctioned by your prophet to deceive us and do so all the time. NOTE the word OBLIGATORY.
I suspect that you are not aware of these things. How would you like to be the wife of a husband who has been given the privilege to lie to you with Gods book in his hand, about money matters infidelity etc etc. How do you think you could EVER live in a world with people that you are allowed to decieve. This is what your religios leaders in your sacred ISALAM does all the time. This why a discussion with Moslems, be it on the net or youtube or in person ALWAYS ends up in confusion. You do not have to follow the same rules as we do, you can lie and decieve in your arguments, and do so all the time.
The fact is that most of the millions of Muslims in the world want to be respected as truthful people, while they follow a book that teaches that it is ok to lie......to us. You see the problem. It is huge. Then when they are faced with this fact they turn to sarcasm and name calling, something they are strictly forbidden..............go figure.
Civilized.................I think not
Think about it, now that is what I call a pathetic religion
pa·thet·ic –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight.
2. affecting or moving the feelings.
3. pertaining to or caused by the feelings.
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate
Quote from: AmbientSound on April 23, 2008, 19:45:47
Usaama, what is secularism? I am not sure I understand your definition of this word.
I believe it is important for people to live in a FREE society where they agree to follow certain rules, laws, and codes. We have to go on what we have in common, what we are collectively willing to tolerate, and what we are not. Here in America, we elect people who are good at solving issues that we collectively face. We elect these people to help us come to a decision about what method should be used to deal with a problem such as a natural disaster, economic problems, what to do if our country is attacked, etc. It is not like being ruled by a monarch, whose word is law. I think this is where misunderstandings are found with America to the Islamic people.
Our government is divided into the federal level, the state level, the county level, and the municipal level. This is to ensure that groups of people can better customize laws for their region and community, where they may have distinguishing preferences or beliefs that set them apart from the rest of the state or country. it is really a brilliant system, if you examine it. The only issue lately is that we have given the federal government more power than it really should have. As you may have read on our dollar bill, "In God we trust," and in our Pledge of Allegiance, you may recall the phrase "One nation, under God." Thus, Islam cannot claim that the United States is enslaved in this way. Since Islamic nations also use monetary systems to deal with trade and exchange, it is not free by MY own definition either.
We all pay our taxes, even though we don't want to. We do it because we recognize that they go to a greater good, that the money is being used to benefit everyone. That is not to say that government is without corruption, as I'm sure you are aware. I am simply pointing out that taxes fund our schools, our police officers, the maintenance of roads and highways, etc. EVERYONE uses some combination of these services, and is therefore responsible for helping out with them.
As for freedom, I do not see how servitude (as opposed to slavery) causes one to be without freedom. If I am serving the people around me, it's because I wish to improve their situation in some way, not because I've got somebody with a whip cracking at my back. If I free myself from serving my fellow man to serve Allah, then how am I free? I'm just replacing one party I am serving with another. Not only that, but I am serving one instead of many. It is no different than moving from one nation to another (Islam is a nation, is it not?). Thus, I fail to see how freedom remains freedom in the Islamic faith. It is not in the nature of a human being to worship a god that someone is trying to force them to believe in. Those who do convert are just lying to their oppressors to stay alive. I am certain that they continue their original religious practices in the privacy of their own homes- unless Muslim barbarians come barging in every now and then just to check on them.
By Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.
I very strongly believe that one should contribute as often as possible to the well-being of their community. Now, here is a little secret very few people realize: When you are spreading the good energy and deeds to others, be sure to include yourself. That way, everyone, including you, benefits, and nobody is left worrying about you. It is a greater service to do this than to only serve others.
There is a difference between servitude and slavery. Slavery is what happens when someone makes demands of another, without offering something in return, and threatens them in some way, either by jeopardizing their health or that of their loved ones (well well, sounds a bit like terrorism, doesn't it?). Terrorism is attempted slavery. They kill innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems, and they refuse to understand that free will is SACRED, even in their religion. They do not reason, they kill and make demands. THAT is not civilized behavior.
As for polytheists, I know a couple and they are decent people. I do not abhor them, as I see no logic in doing so. I fraternize with and befriend those who practice magic, Druids, Sages, Witches and Wizards alike. I am more likely to befriend these kinds of people than a Southern Baptist priest or a Mormon priest. I abhor authoritarian religion. If two of my friends cannot get along with each other, I make sure that I do not put them in each others' company and both remain my friends.
Aren't Muslims polygamists in the afterlife? And who ever said the 72 virgins were women? You can't get a disease in heaven.
"God created women for us to be our wives. Leaving them for men is a perversion and a deviation from the natural way that God has laid down for us. This is why homosexuality is forbidden."
I strongly disagree with this statement, first because homosexuality is not perverse (because that is a subjective viewpoint), and second because it does not answer my original question as to why women are not treated as equals. They have feelings, just like men, and in America, they make better students and sometimes even better leaders. They are often delicate and beautiful, sensitive, and they are happiest when they are free. I speak from first-hand observation. A woman who is free is more likely to tell you the truth and be with you because she wants to be. Women want a guy who is going to respect them and has standards, not treat them like a subordinate. I have a hard time believing that any woman in her right mind would convert to Islam, especially since she might have to endure genital mutilation. What's wrong with a woman experiencing pleasure during sex? What is the purpose of her genitalia, then, if God says "snip-snip?" Doesn't that imply that Allah is imperfect in his ability to create? Or does he just hate women so much that he creates them with this part of their body so that they can endure the agony of having it removed later on?
Here in America, women and men date each other, and have equal say in the relationship. This gives more likelihood that we will find the person who gets along with us best. The relationship is not based on some mandate that someone scribbled onto paper, it is based on the connections of the mind, body, and spirit. I seek a woman to connect with on a multitude of levels.
Is there any link between the women-converts and the country of Iran? And how do I know that the converts aren't converting because they were threatened?
Usaama, have you ever read Sun Tsu's "The Art of War?" It offers philosophies on combat. You should also look at " The Book of Five Rings," written by the legendary Japanese sword master, Musashi. It may give you a better understanding of Japan's combat mentality.
I have studied seven martial arts, some of which were so brutal I could not make the connections myself of what move to do next. But I understand now why it is necessary to know such tactics. In a violent confrontation, there is no time to think. One must act quickly and waste as little time and energy as possible when incapacitating their attacker (all honorable martial arts practice and preach never throwing the first strike, so if there is violence, it does not begin with us, it ends with us). The Chinese word "Wushu" actually translates to "the art of stopping a fight."
It was Japan that attacked America in WWII, absolutely unprovoked. The atom bomb was used for two reasons: first, to show Nazi Germany that we beat them to the development of it so that they would be far more likely to surrender, and second, so that Japan would surrender. We warned them in advance and they did nothing. They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped, remember that. We weren't out to rule over their country, we just wanted them to leave us alone and all other methods failed. Also remember the Samurai mentality of Japanese warriors. Like Islam's suicide bombers, they would crash their planes into American warships and other targets.
By a martial artist's standpoint, the Japanese delivered the first blow, and America the final blow.
I am by no means suggesting that the detonation of the atom bomb was not a horribly tragic event, but given the circumstances at the time, it was necessary.
As for other atrocities committed in America that can be found elsewhere, go visit South America and Mexico, China, Japan, Russia, just about any nation on the African continent, and Australia. Oh, let's not forget North Korea, where they FORCE Christianity on their citizens, and Iran, which will not allow women U.S. citizens to leave without their husband's permission, if the husband is an Iranian citizen (there was a movie made about this, called "Not without my daughter," and I'm sure you can find it, or parts of it, on Youtube somewhere, if you care to watch).
When it comes to the truth, there are only two things to observe, my friend: Cause and effect. I should state here that it is folly for ANY human being to even begin to say that they understand God. You don't understand God and neither do I, so why should we allow another human being to tell us about God? Just because it's in a book that someone claims to be holy doesn't make it true. I challenge you with one final question: Where is the historical evidence that Muhammed ever moved a mountain? (you may not use your book as a source unless it provides viable dates and references).
I am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.
I still maintain that organized religion is a control mechanism used by the elite to manipulate the masses. Its purpose is to simply make sure that the common people of the world never unite. If Islam maintains its attitude toward infidels, then organized religion will have done what it was invented to do.
First of all, what I mean by secularism is a seperation of religion from state. Religion encompasses every aspect of life: to God belongs everything in the heavens in the earth, not just churches, cynagogues or masjids. the seperation of religion from law, from society, from state, is an insult to God's Sovereignty.
We dont have these sort of misunderstanding about America. I personally had a public american education my whole life and understand the system and the ideas behind it. Whether you avoid the question or not, the reality is America is about the rule of the people. The rule of God is not a valid consideration in the system's view.
The reality of such a system, is that it is enslaved to men's whims and desires. It doesnt matter if this is a matter of "majority", or "minority", it is still a criminal system.
Regarding your statement about freedom, the difference is, that in Islam we are going from obeying one that is imperfect(man) to the One that is perfect. And if you didnt pay attention to what I wrote earlier, we dont force people to believe.
you said:
QuoteBy Islam's definition of freedom, you are anarchists. You claim that you do not believe in being ruled by any man, which is the very definition of anarchy. You claim to be ruled by a higher being that nobody has ever seen, one that has never actually been proven to exist. That is not even inside the definition of theocracy. I could claim to be ruled by a higher being too, but who would believe me? I don't have a holy book like the Muslims.
It's not anarachy because we believe in a Law that is to be followed. The Law that is to be followed however, is not man-made law, but the Law that God legislates and lays down. This(Law) is manifested in the Qur'an and what has been related through the lips of His Messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him). The rulers and people entrusted with authority are entrusted to implement God's Law.
First of all, genital mutilation is a cultural practice, not an Islamic practice. No woman do I know of, outside of Africa, has ever had to fear genital mutilation succeeding conversion to Islam. It's just an absolutely ridiculous misconception, and incorrect bias.
Secondly, women are treated as equals in Islam. Men and women are treated in Islam according to the specific natures. The Qur'an says, "and the male is not like the female." As much as you want to treat people the "same", the reality is, men and women are not the same: biologically, emotionally or spiritually. They have their unique needs and rights. Indeed, Islam has always honoured women, to the extent that an entire chapter in the Qur'an is named "Women", due to it's main subject being women's rights and treatment.
Your tone and words used shows that you know very little about Islam, and that your mind is full of nonsense thoughts regarding it. It almost feels degrading to myself to even respond to your nonsense, but I will try to bear with it for now.
Women arent converting because they are threatened. I have known women myself who have converted,a nd love Islam because of the way it honours women, and because of its spiritual fulfillment. But you probably wont believe me; that would be your loss though.
regarding sun tzus art of war, i have read it.
My friend is Japanese and he is a direct descendant of Samurai. I showed him what you wrote in the next paragraph. He said that first of all no White European or Westerner can understand the Japanese Spirit. Secondly, Wushu in Chinese or Bujutsu in Japanese simply means martial-arts. It doesn't mean "art of stopping a fight."
The fact that you are trying to justify the atomic bombs over heroshima and nagasaki shows how much of imbisal you are.
Firstly, Japan did not attack America unprovoked. This is a flat-out falsehood. This almost as ridiculosu that the 9/11 attacks were unprovoked. Only one who didnt know the political situation and what the united states was doing would say such a thing.
The united states halted all of Japan's monetary assets and froze their oil supply before Pearl Harbor.. Any country with self-respect wouldnt take such actions lying down.
Secondly, Japan did surrender to the U.S. The United States, however, wanted unconditional surrender.
Thirdly, what fault is the Japanese children? Killing women and children to force a government to surrender is worse than any terrorism that Bin Laden has been involved in.
It wasnt a necesity. With that logic, It was just as much a necesity for the Nazis to round up jews and let them die in concentration camps, as they saw the Jews as enemies and waging a covert war against them. Or how about 9/11? Al-Qaida argues that 9/11 was a necesity, because of America's sanctions on iraq tha tkilled half a million children.
I know I dont understand God. Islam is about recognizing that one doesnt understand God. He is not like anything, He has no co-equal and is uncomparable to anything. However, we know that we must submit ourselves to Him and follow what He reveals.
About your "challenge", i know my Book is authentic and I would never agree to not using my Book as evidences, because the Qur'an is the ultimate evidence, the ultimate authority. For you to disrespect my Book like that shows that you are both ignorant, ungrateful, and an imbissal.
QuoteI am capable of both detecting and using subtle (spiritual) energies. Within one year, I doubled my salary, acquired a brand-new gas-efficient car, and found the best deal on an apartment in my area. And I am not of Islam. So if Allah hates me so much, he's doing a tinkle-poor job of stopping me from living a good life.
One narration of the Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) should be sufficient for your statement:
"Had this world been worth the weight of the wing of a mosquito, Allah would not give the kaafir(disbeliever)a sip of water."
this world in respect to the Hereafter is like a drop in respect to the oceans.
Enjoy your good things in this life, for eternal Hellfire awaits those who disbelieve.
As for your next statement, my response is: bahaism is an organized religion,but its precepts revolve around the unity of mankind and making no distinction between people.
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 24, 2008, 01:38:29
You see Osama this is where you and I differ. You say you live by a book of rules that you follow, and that following these rules makes God like you better than me.Yet you are a hypocrite who claims one thing and does another.
Let me teach you a few things. First of all, Sarcasm is forbidden in Islam, did you know that.
15) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to completely abandon and shun guile, deceit, scornfulness, or sarcasm because these are unlawful. Allah Most High says, "O you who believe, let no men scorn other men, for they might well be better than they are. And let no women scorn other women, for they might well be better than they. And do not find fault with one another, or give each other insulting nicknames" (Qur'an 49:11).
Do you not find it odd that I a infidel, am the one to steer you on to the proper path. Mind your words my little friend, for in words, you show what you really are.
This is what I have against you who follow Islam and call yourselves Moslem. You are hypocrites and you are liers. Its that simple. How can you build a good society with and among people who are liers and hypocrites. You cannot, it has never been done and it will never happen. No government can ever exist in peace and no great civilization can ever be built on a lie. It is simply not possible. It defies common sense. It would mean that you would never know where you had people, it would and does create injustice and confusion on a massive scale. This is the very reason the Califate will never be a reality, and this is the reason the Muslim world ceased to exist as a power to be counted on.
Let me explain so you understand it better and think about the implications in a modern world. According to the Koran it is ok to tell lies it is in some cases even commanded. Here are some text on the Hadith
(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, "May liars be slain" (Qur'an 51:10), in which slain means "cursed" according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur'anic exegete al-Khazin notes that "May liars be cursed" originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur'anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.
(SO FAR SO GOOD OSAMA< HOWEVER>>>>)
(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one's wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people" (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, "The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory." When lying is the only way to attain one's right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary.
I believe that this mixture of lies and truth is why Islam came to an end centuries ago, and why it is never to rise again. You are untrustworthy. WE the people of other countries unfettered by your book now knows that to us you are liers, you are sanctioned by your prophet to deceive us and do so all the time. NOTE the word OBLIGATORY.
I suspect that you are not aware of these things. How would you like to be the wife of a husband who has been given the privilege to lie to you with Gods book in his hand, about money matters infidelity etc etc. How do you think you could EVER live in a world with people that you are allowed to decieve. This is what your religios leaders in your sacred ISALAM does all the time. This why a discussion with Moslems, be it on the net or youtube or in person ALWAYS ends up in confusion. You do not have to follow the same rules as we do, you can lie and decieve in your arguments, and do so all the time.
The fact is that most of the millions of Muslims in the world want to be respected as truthful people, while they follow a book that teaches that it is ok to lie......to us. You see the problem. It is huge. Then when they are faced with this fact they turn to sarcasm and name calling, something they are strictly forbidden..............go figure.
Civilized.................I think not
Think about it, now that is what I call a pathetic religion
pa·thet·ic –adjective
1. causing or evoking pity, sympathetic sadness, sorrow, etc.; pitiful; pitiable: a pathetic letter; a pathetic sight.
2. affecting or moving the feelings.
3. pertaining to or caused by the feelings.
4. miserably or contemptibly inadequate
First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.
As for your dumb idea of bringing up the topic of lies, the permitted lies are the lies to one's wife (which would be a white lie to one's wife in english cultural terms), a lie for rectification between people, and a lie during war. However, during war one can still not break a treaty, and some forms of lies are still impermissible.
Your pathetic existence abhors me. But I feel bad for you more than I hate you, for, I know you are just paving a path for yourself into Hellfire.
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 24, 2008, 03:17:14
First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.
As for your dumb idea of bringing up the topic of lies, the permitted lies are the lies to one's wife (which would be a white lie to one's wife in english cultural terms), a lie for rectification between people, and a lie during war. However, during war one can still not break a treaty, and some forms of lies are still impermissible.
Your pathetic existence abhors me. But I feel bad for you more than I hate you, for, I know you are just paving a path for yourself into Hellfire.
Well I guess I will have to take my chances about hell fire. First of all .....as you say, could you please show me a few suras that permit you to insult and degrade individuals like me. I would be interested in heading these parts.
As far as my dumb idea of Islam permitting Lies toward unbelievers, it is obvious that all Muslims are at war with the Kaffir, so it is permitted to lie to officials, police, bosses, and other infidels if you live in a country that is not ruled by Sharia.
You may also lie to your wife at will if it to make sure she is not hurt, as in covering up affairs etc. In actuality Muslims in the west have another principle that they use namely that of "Taqiyya"......
.............which literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding." It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.
Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his hear
I have cut and pasted the above explanation and translation from a site on the net.
This is why I call you liars, and I call Islam a religion that sanctions and commands lying.
I do find it amusing that when you can no longer support your own claims, and are exposed for being a uncivilized liar, you start threatening with hell fire. So sad, and so ignorant and infantile.
Very typical of many yet not all Muslims.
This issue above is unknown to many westerners and they still cling to the belief that Muslims are good lawabiding people, because they claim to be. This is why they get so surprised when young western Muslims "suddenly" turn radical. They are not aware that they have been deceived on an ongoing basis.
If what is happening in this discussion had been happening face to face, you would most likely resorted to violence or aggression , like most Muslims do.
All that points to a lack of civility.
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 24, 2008, 04:04:10
Well I guess I will have to take my chances about hell fire. First of all .....as you say, could you please show me a few suras that permit you to insult and degrade individuals like me. I would be interested in heading these parts.
As far as my dumb idea of Islam permitting Lies toward unbelievers, it is obvious that all Muslims are at war with the Kaffir, so it is permitted to lie to officials, police, bosses, and other infidels if you live in a country that is not ruled by Sharia.
You may also lie to your wife at will if it to make sure she is not hurt, as in covering up affairs etc. In actuality Muslims in the west have another principle that they use namely that of "Taqiyya"......
.............which literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding." It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.
Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a "religion of peace". A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his hear
I have cut and pasted the above explanation and translation from a site on the net.
This is why I call you liars, and I call Islam a religion that sanctions and commands lying.
I do find it amusing that when you can no longer support your own claims, and are exposed for being a uncivilized liar, you start threatening with hell fire. So sad, and so ignorant and infantile.
Very typical of many yet not all Muslims.
This issue above is unknown to many westerners and they still cling to the belief that Muslims are good lawabiding people, because they claim to be. This is why they get so surprised when young western Muslims "suddenly" turn radical. They are not aware that they have been deceived on an ongoing basis.
If what is happening in this discussion had been happening face to face, you would most likely resorted to violence or aggression , like most Muslims do.
All that points to a lack of civility.
إِنَّمَا يَفْتَرِي الْكَذِبَ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ وَأُوْلـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَاذِبُونَ
It is only those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars. [16:105]
I've been staying away from this convo primarily because I like to try to understand other religions and don't really enjoy 'other people's religion bashing', but I want to ask a question that struck me here.
Usama, in the past few paragraphs it seems you are saying that western world, or anyone who is not Muslim are beneath you because we don't necessarily follow the Quran?
QuoteI am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.
QuoteIt is only those who believe not in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars. [16:105]
Sounds like you don't think we deserve respect. Is this the case?
Yes that is exactly what he believes, though he will probably try to soft soap you, using the doctrine of Taqyiaa which I explained below. It is one of the many reasons it is so hard for the average westerner to see through this veil, this deception. They do not believe that a religion could ever sanction or promote lying. Its just so alien to us.
You and I and the rest of us are according to the Koran, only the Kufr or the kaffir and are in essence no different from a cow or a pig. We are by nature liars, and the Muslims consider themselves to be by nature truthful.
Being truthful or being a liar is not a personal thing in Islam. A Muslim is a truthful man because he confesses that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet, a infidel is a liar because he denies this.
The Arabic he wrote translates into:
"but maligned lying (comes from) those who do not believe the revelations of Allah, and those are the liars, (it comes )from Kafr after his faith in God (which he) only hate(s), (the) heart reassuring faith(,) but they (instead) explain disbelief (and will receive) breaststroke (forward, aggressive) anger from God and have a great punishment.
I have put a few words in () to change the actual translation to readable English.
This is why I have asked that we examine the scriptures and what they actually teach rather than the actions of those who claim to follow them, be they Christians Jews or Muslims. This is however a heresy to osama, who believes Islam and Islamic countries, are far more civilized than the west.
Here is a quote from Osama from below:
First of all, Mustard, the prohibition of sarchasm is towards fellow believers. I am permitted to insult and degrade individuals like yourself, who's disbelief is clear, and opposition to Islam is apparent.
Think about that .........quite thought provoking. If he had been a CHRISTIAN displaying such sentiments he would have been banned from AP a LONG time ago, but it seems that since he is a Muslim and we are all supposed to be so tolerant, he is allowed to spew out such venom and hate propaganda and stand unchallenged. Much like society at large Political correctness is still rearing its ugly head sometime, here and IRL as well.
Quote from: CFTraveler on April 24, 2008, 16:10:54
I've been staying away from this convo primarily because I like to try to understand other religions and don't really enjoy 'other people's religion bashing', but I want to ask a question that struck me here.
Usama, in the past few paragraphs it seems you are saying that western world, or anyone who is not Muslim are beneath you because we don't necessarily follow the Quran?
Sounds like you don't think we deserve respect. Is this the case?
respect
noun
1. (usually preceded by 'in') a detail or point; "it differs in that respect"
2. the condition of being honored (esteemed or respected or well regarded); "it is held in esteem"; "a man who has earned high regard" [syn: esteem] [ant: disesteem]
3. an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him" [ant: disrespect]
4. a courteous expression (by word or deed) of esteem or regard; "his deference to her wishes was very flattering"; "be sure to give my respects to the dean" [syn: deference]
5. behavior intended to please your parents; "their children were never very strong on obedience"; "he went to law school out of respect for his father's wishes" [syn: obedience]
6. a feeling of friendship and esteem; "she mistook his manly regard for love"; "he inspires respect" [syn: regard]
7. courteous regard for people's feelings; "in deference to your wishes"; "out of respect for his privacy" [syn: deference]
as for honouring you, that is impermissible. all honour belongs to God, His Messenger, and the believers.
im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?
Join the Dark Side...
... and get a free cookie!
Usaama-
You miss the beauty of reality. The world is ALREADY free. It was free before Islam, it is free now, and it shall remain free long after Islam dies away. Your thinking is warped by the distorted lens of Islam. You think that Islam is the only religion that contains wisdom? The only one worth following? Well you are wrong and so is your book.
Experience is the best teacher, and that is the path that I follow.
Quotebut how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?
Acceptance and forgiveness?
QuoteAbu wrote:
im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?
Thank you.
That is all I need to know.
You may not be prohibited in treating people kindly and justly if they have not yet decided where they stand regarding Islam, but if people have rejected your religion, you are commanded to not only disrespect them but also to attack them, physically if you can, or with words if you cannot get to them, like you do here.
You cannot, nor are you allowed to be kind just and courteous to people who voice opposition to Islam. You said in a post a while ago that you have no problem with executing (by beheading) anyone who commits apostasy, leaves Islam. You and all your brothers who hold the same views, are in my definition teetering on the brink of insanity.
You have stated you believe in Jihad.
and when you say:
im not prohibited from treating you kindly or justly, or being courteous regarding your feelings, but how can i respect your beliefs, that are disrespects to my Lord?
People reply:
Thank you, thats all I need to know.
We are the Kufr Osama!, if I had the same attitude about your religion, that you have about mine, I would be in trouble with the media, and maybe even get a warning from the AP. If I called your Prophet lets say a perverted child abuser, a false prophet and a warmongering terrorist, I would most likely be sternly corrected by my fellow Kuffir brothers and sisters.
Isn't it ironic. I can prove from your own scriptures that all these statements are true, yet in the name of political wishy washy correctness, I am in various forums silenced and condemned, and you are believed and allowed to speak. Muslims such as yourself support the burning down of embassies, to protest, against being called a violent Religion, (go figure) sympathize openly with your name brother, an insane mass murderer and yet you have, with the help of Taqyiia managed to get sympathy for your cause, using our own beliefs in tolerance, freedom of religion, something you do not even agree with, as your "way in"
I pity you, and I pity the world because it is just the beginning. I am personally against violence, be it from the wacko mass murderer Bush, or the counterpart Osama, but you are not. You believe in the Kalifat, wants to instigate Sharia law, and you will willingly plunge the world into destruction to prove it, all along thinking you do Gods service.
You are so wrong.
That novel Allah's been working on...
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/that-novel-youve-been-working-on/2333499493
OH MY GOODNESS I dont think I have laughed so long and so hard for a long time. Thanks for sharing that It hit right in the center as I have actually been working on a novel for .....you guessed it 3 years. What are the odds. My novel is about my time in Afghanistan, up to the present day, and you are all in it.
Yeah, I got a laugh out of it too, but I feel that I may have went too far with that one, so I apologize to Usaama, even if he would not do the same for me were our places switched.
Usaama should believe whatever he wants to believe, because I believe people in general should, even if I disagree with their beliefs. I do wish he would acknowledge that Christianity's scriptures, which are older than the Quaran, indicate that HE will also be burning in hell for not believing in Jesus. I guess you and I better learn to get along, Usaama. We might be roommates in hell.
Quote from: AmbientSound on April 26, 2008, 03:34:06
Yeah, I got a laugh out of it too, but I feel that I may have went too far with that one, so I apologize to Usaama, even if he would not do the same for me were our places switched.
Usaama should believe whatever he wants to believe, because I believe people in general should, even if I disagree with their beliefs. I do wish he would acknowledge that Christianity's scriptures, which are older than the Quaran, indicate that HE will also be burning in hell for not believing in Jesus. I guess you and I better learn to get along, Usaama. We might be roommates in hell.
I believe in Jesus.
Do you believe that Jesus is your savior, Usaama?
Below you will find a link that describes the fundamental American philosophies:
http://www.freedom-fight.net/liberty
That is the way it is supposed to be in our country. It is what the Founding Fathers intended. If you still think Western society is uncivilized, consider that the source is not these philosophies, but individuals who are ignorant of them.
There are always examples that you can find about horrible happenings in America. This is due to the fact that given the size of people in the world, and the population of America, which is a very big country, you are always going to have a percentage of people who are deranged or not normal in some way.
Normal people in America (or anywhere else) don't hack their neighbors and families up and eat them. Violence makes a lot of work for everyone and invites anger, hostility, and hatred.
The people who do these terrible things in Western culture are like the people in predominantly Islamic countries and cultures who blow themselves up in the markets and other places, killing indiscriminately, even if the majority of their victims end up being fellow Muslims.
One thing I would like to point out is that we elect people in America to REPRESENT us, not RULE OVER us (I think the link I posted already mentions that). Essentially, we are hiring them to perform the service of carrying out the wishes of the majority. They get paid by our tax dollars.
Unfortunately, the system has become very complex and things have gone awry (more specifically corporate America's greed). This does not represent all of America, but a powerful few who have found a way to take advantage of our system. They deserve life sentences in jail for what they are doing. They know full well what the consequences will be for everyone else. They just don't care.
Whether it's yours, mine, or someone else's religion, I think this one makes valid points.
http://www.venganza.org/
Can't we all just get along?
You believe that he was a prophet, nothing else. You do not believe he was the son of God as Christians do
I think these misunderstandings need to be cleared up. I'm tired of being told that hellfire awaits me in the next life, and I'm sure that Usaama is tired of being told how obsolete his religion is.
I want balance and peace for all of us. How can that be achieved?
If you notice, Osama is the one who claims to know that you and all infidels are going to hell, while he and the rest of his Muslim brothers are going to heaven. In Islam the absolutely surest way to get to heaven is to die as a martyr, so all the Palestinian suicide bombers who blow themselves up and kill innocent children and adults are the first to get in.
I think that many people especially here on the AP and in the community in general, wants so bad to find common ground with Islam, but the problem is that Islam wants no part in that. Islam as a religion and a political system will not be satisfied till all of the world belongs to Dar al Islam the house of Islam. (peace) and since we all know that civilized countries will NEVER allow sharia law to rule, all that is left is war. The frustrated attempts to dominate, by a religion, and followers of a justice system, that is some 400 years too late. The world has moved on while Islam still lives in the 1600s, a barbaric time, that fits a barbaric religion and system.
This war, Jihad is waged physically and spiritually. This series of posts is Osamas personal Jihad, his struggle. It is his attempt as a teenager to spread Islam, and there will be no compromise.
Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot have peace even though you want it. How can you make peace with those who wants no peace.
And now, to change the subject:
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 25, 2008, 23:52:44
My novel is ... and you are all in it.
I better be
hot in it, that's all I'm going to say. :-)
Quote from: CFTraveler on April 28, 2008, 18:59:15
And now, to change the subject: I better be hot in it, that's all I'm going to say. :-)
well that depends on, actually well uhhhhh....its like.....,you see oh forget it...................Ill make you hot :roll:
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 28, 2008, 03:16:43
This war, Jihad is waged physically and spiritually. This series of posts is Osamas personal Jihad, his struggle. It is his attempt as a teenager to spread Islam, and there will be no compromise.
Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot have peace even though you want it. How can you make peace with those who wants no peace.
What do you say, Usaama? This viewpoint indicates that you are blind and think you can achieve peace through war. This is, as you may know, George W. Bush's philosophy, an idiot of the twenty-first Century.
Nobody wins a war. It's a lose-lose situation.
And if the Mayan calendar prophecy is correct, Usaama, you and your Muslim cronies have only four years to take over the world, and counting... Tick... tick... tick... *insert super-villain laughter here*
When Allah gives you hellfire... roast marshmallows and make smores.
I think Osama has decided that he will ignore us. This is often the way Muslims engage in a debate. At first they are all over you with religious dogma, making various lofty claims about being more civilized and educated. Then after they have been forced to look at the facts, they resort to abusive language, and then lastly they threaten hellfire. They are simply not able to document their cause, nor are they able to actually debate an issue. This is not taught in Islam, in Islam only religious rhetoric, and flowery allegories and language is needed to convince people, this is due to the heavy indoctrination of Muslims by various Imams and Mullahs. All their answers are basically copied and pasted from various help sites run by their Imams......if they say this you say this etc. Its pretty funny really, as they often "forget" to list their source, and want to be seen as "wise" and educated. Religious hypocrisy. Lastly after they have realised they have neither the intellect or skill, much less facts to prove their grand claims, they ignore you and go somewhere shouting Allah is great, from some other soap box.
Osama is waiting for the Mahdi, the last prophet that shall make all the world Muslim....and set up the Kalifat.......arn't you Osama. I know you are reading this my little friend, but you are probably not is interested in discussing with a Kufr, who is going to answer you back, no one to convert. :roll:
Quote from: Mustardseed on April 29, 2008, 03:17:13
I think Osama has decided that he will ignore us. This is often the way Muslims engage in a debate. At first they are all over you with religious dogma, making various lofty claims about being more civilized and educated. Then after they have been forced to look at the facts, they resort to abusive language, and then lastly they threaten hellfire. They are simply not able to document their cause, nor are they able to actually debate an issue. This is not taught in Islam, in Islam only religious rhetoric, and flowery allegories and language is needed to convince people, this is due to the heavy indoctrination of Muslims by various Imams and Mullahs. All their answers are basically copied and pasted from various help sites run by their Imams......if they say this you say this etc. Its pretty funny really, as they often "forget" to list their source, and want to be seen as "wise" and educated. Religious hypocrisy. Lastly after they have realised they have neither the intellect or skill, much less facts to prove their grand claims, they ignore you and go somewhere shouting Allah is great, from some other soap box.
Osama is waiting for the Mahdi, the last prophet that shall make all the world Muslim....and set up the Kalifat.......arn't you Osama. I know you are reading this my little friend, but you are probably not is interested in discussing with a Kufr, who is going to answer you back, no one to convert. :roll:
Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be upon him) was the last prophet, not the Mahdi.
oh yeah, and if you want to debate me , im not afraid to debate. however, i dont respond to people who talk like fools.
abu-usaama@hotmail.com
I have returned to a place of peace, balance, and harmony from this argument, because ultimately it means nothing to me. It is my inalienable right to believe whatever I want, and I regularly exercise that right. If Usaama and all of Islam believes that hellfire awaits me, then that is for him and them to believe, though I do not share in that belief. Obviously we are two very different individuals following two very different philosophies, seemingly.
My opinion:
Mature individuals solve their conflicts together while sharing something with each other, like a beer, or if they don't drink alcohol, usually it is something like tea or coffee.
It is not what is said, it is how the individuals conduct themselves and show each other respect while exchanging their viewpoints. That speaks volumes more than the facts. Can any of us really claim to truly know something?
Usaama, under what conditions/circumstances would the above be possible between Muslims and non-Muslims?
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. 4Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; 6rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. 13But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bible/asv.iCor.13.html
Dear AS
I understand how you feel, a unpleasant discussion such as this can be taxing, however.........sometimes it is necessary. Not in order to win an argument, thats irrelevant, but in order to shine light on a subject. There are many people who read these posts and if Osama is left unchallenged his point of view will slowly become mainstream. This is how propaganda works. Tell a lie often enough and someday it will be believed.
The fact is that Islam is a barbaric social system based on a pseudo religion, hailing principles and laws dating back to the first century. It is religious fascism it its finest form pure and undiluted. It mandates death by beheading to those who leave its ranks, suppresses women in the most horrid ways, and calls for Jihad to usher its priesthood into leadership of the world, making all the world Muslim. This in not my free fantasy but has been confirmed even by Osama who believes in these principles.
It is true that it would be easier to just retreat into our own lives and realities, but if we do we leave the "battlefield" to him and his cronies.
I saw a National Geographic program last night. It was a look at how Islam was winning the information war it was very thought provoking.
Here is a quote from a blogger on this subject. He is called SchrinkWrapped:
One lamentable problem thus far in the Global War on Terror, or the war on Islamofascism, or the war on expansionary Islam, is that the West has not yet found a vocabulary to describe our enemies. In point of fact, our enemies have done a much better job of hijacking our language and using it for its own purposes than we have in being clear about who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. Until we can agree on who the enemy is, we will have trouble waging a successful information war. Our enemies have an interest in making this a war between the decadent Western infidels and the Muslim world, the Umma. Unless we desire the worst case scenarios to come to fruition, our interest should be in splitting the most violent, those most willing to use force against us, from the great mass of non-violently antipathetic and neutral, Muslims.
I will leave you with this famous quote from Martin Niemuller, the German pastor who outspokenly opposed the Nazis and suffered in concentration camps. In a 1959 seminary address in Atlanta, Ga., Niemuller said,
"First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."
Regards Mustardseed
PS as far as a peaceful respectful discussion, I am very much for that, however you will find that our little friend is not. It is simply not an option. In his opinion there can be no serious discussion, no respect, no love and most certain no friendship or tolerance, not unless you convert to Islam that is. Is that an option........? :roll: I think.........NOT
PPS
Your remarks are becoming faint Osama. Instead of actually taking part in this exchange and prove to me, and whoever reads this, that the average Muslims are more civilized than the average westerner, which was your grand unsupported claim, you have resorted to calling me stupid..........how original. Then you further state that the Mahdi is not a prophet, something peripheral, well thank you, I stand corrected. He is supposed to be a direct descendant of your prophet Muhammad, and everyone is waiting for him. The last Immam. Instead why don't you confirm or deny that you are waiting for this mythological figure, to lead you all into world dominance. You are waiting for him ..........right, that was my point. Personally I am not convinced but maybe you can explain. The world is listening !!!!!!
It is rather obvious that Usaama has lost the argument, based on how he inserts peoples' entire replies as a quote in his replies and then writes one sentence that is pertinent to one small piece of their post, and it STILL doesn't answer the question.
It is also obvious that he is providing his email because he feels he cannot win this argument here (and he is right). He wants to argue with people one at a time, so that nobody sees anyone else's posts and they have less to think about and ponder, less intellectual stimulus, less ability to grow and evolve and compare their knowledge to that of others.
I wonder if he will even address my previous question- can Muslims and non-Muslims coexist peacefully, and can they discuss the issues at hand with each other respectfully?
Whether he does or not, it will certainly reveal something about his intentions.
I could not agree more. It is actually very interesting to note that the way Muslims argue "religion" is so different from the way agnostics, Christians or atheists etc do the same thing. It stems from the fact that most Muslims do not study their Koran, much less the Hadith as do others. It is too complex, and they have been told that it cannot be understood without reading it in Arabic, or knowing the Hadith as the back of your hand. There is no tradition in Islam for an individual to study these books, as we know "study", instead they are read as poetry..
Most, if not all, instead use various help sites, set up by Imams and Mullahs etc, to answer issues that come up, rather than search themselves. Basically they don't know their own scriptures, and when confronted with THEIR OWN BELIEFS they quickly resort to abuse or religious rhetoric, rather than fact. I have yet to find a Muslim who knew his own doctrines, better than I do.
This is very much like the Catholic church before the reformation. This is how the church of its day kept a thumb on its members, and it resulted in various atrocities, committed in the name of God, perpetrated by people who thought they were doing God a favor. After the first Bible was translated by Luther all that changed.
If western Muslims, living in the Umma would only bother to read their own book, they would see that it is indeed very violent and barbaric, they would then have to choose between following its doctrines, or rejecting it and choosing democracy with all its faults and weak points. This would however be a big and very traumatic social faux pas, because there is only one kind of person a fundamentalist Muslim hates MORE than the Kaffir (infidel) and that is a apostate, one who has left Islam. There is death penalty for apostasy in several countries, and in the west there is "social death penalty". You become an outcast.
I believe that there are thousands of Muslims in the west who are going along just for these social reasons, and would much rather live in a western world with its basic law and order, rather than in a Sharia state. You seldom hear anything from them.
Besides that, Osama is just a young boy, obviously attracted to the strong image and attitude of superiority, so readily portrayed by the Imams. Religious fervor has always given rise to youngsters, who take things to the extremes. He will grow and hopefully learn, that much of the information he is being given, in nothing more than fiction, urban legends and lies, dooms day conspiracies invented to control the masses.
During the Cartoon crisis, a team of Danish and Mideastern Imams, living in Denmark, traveled to the Mideast, bringing with them cartoons showing Muhammad having sex with a pig. This was a fabrication. They spread rumors that the Danish government had laws encouraging Danes to marry animals cows and pigs etc etc. These lies were spread throughout the Mideast through the Internet, and various Arabic tv channels, and was the fuel that set all the Muslims off on their rampage.This has later been admitted, but by the time it finally came out, the damage was done. These stories take a life of their own and Muslims are naturally more apt to believe a fellow Muslim and certainly an Immam, rather than a Kaffir.
Regards Mustardseed
Funny isn't it that when a Muslim realities that he most likely cannot convert a person, he just goes away. No need to argue doctrine, no need to explain no need for sugarcoating the message. He just goes on to whatever he considers a better promising victim. The aim is not to defend the faith, but only to win and deceive potential converts.
Yes, I think Usaama's lack of presence is a very accurate indicator of his intentions. He didn't answer at least half the questions I asked him. He's not playing by the rules- not even his own.
Quote from: abu-usaama on April 02, 2008, 03:42:37
Get over it dude. Muslims have always been peaceful. Rash and floundery statements of a couple doesnt change the fact that:
1)Muslims have always been more tolerant, and more civilized, in warfare and elsewhere, than christians.
You have to do some serious reading, my friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
Quote from: highdenham on May 05, 2008, 12:18:20
You have to do some serious reading, my friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
Yes you are right he should, but this is the very problem with Osama and his friends, they will NOT read something written about Islam, unless it has been written by a Muslim. They simply dismiss it. It is part of their culture to mistrust any information that does not come from their Immam or whoever they consider authorities. They have a well developed persecution complex and believe in all sort of far fetched conspiracy theories. This is also why they are so easy to lead astray. I know that there are well educated Muslims, BUT as a rule, and most certainly in Islamic countries, Muslims are uneducated, simple and ......as a result rather uncivilized. This was the discussion and seeing Osama has left the building he confirms it.
Quote from: Mustardseed on May 06, 2008, 03:19:50
Yes you are right he should, but this is the very problem with Osama and his friends, they will NOT read something written about Islam, unless it has been written by a Muslim. They simply dismiss it. It is part of their culture to mistrust any information that does not come from their Immam or whoever they consider authorities. They have a well developed persecution complex and believe in all sort of far fetched conspiracy theories. This is also why they are so easy to lead astray. I know that there are well educated Muslims, BUT as a rule, and most certainly in Islamic countries, Muslims are uneducated, simple and ......as a result rather uncivilized. This was the discussion and seeing Osama has left the building he confirms it.
Quite.
FINAL SCORE:
WORLD ISLAM
1 0