Yes.
I was an avid Catholic for 16 full years of my life. I read some books. Books are fun.
Anyway it was a good book, and it convinced me that religion is useless. So now that's what I think. Eh...there's alot more to it, but I'm just a lazy bum.
~Squeek
Similar to Squeek. I was raised Roman Catholic for 15 years and as such, mindlessley bought into it. Then, one day in June of 2002, I was supposed to go to a mass for my cousin's graduation, out in the mountains. I stayed back when we were entering to go to the bathroom, and then couldn't find where my family had gone to sit (big church), so instead I decided to wander around the mountains and watch the sun set.
It was at that time that I ultimately realized that organized religion was BS. I realized that God was anywhere that one personally finds him, not in any building. My philosophy became that everyone must find their own meaning for god within themselves, and until they find THEIR god, worship and religion is meaningless - it's just someone else's meaning for god.
Note that this was long before I was ever introduced to anything other than mainstream Christianity.
Needless to say a few months later I was introduced to OBE and all of this stuff and here I am.
I used to go a lot when I was younger but for the most part it didn't do anything for me that I can remember. It seemed pointless and more like something to get out of the way, I finally realized just going to church doesn't make you spiritual or a good person. Though I have seen a few people who it has helped but most people who go don't seem anymore spiritual then those who don't attend church.
There were three main "brands" of church that I attended in the 16 odd years I called myself a christian - The Australian Uniting church (a presbyterian methodist blend), Assemblies of God pentecostal, and the Salvation Army. One of the major complaints I had with each was the corruption at the organisational level.
The Uniting church runs a humanitarian aid business called Life Line. A close friend who worked as a storeman in one of their warehouses ended up joining a union in order to get legal representation as he was being payed below award wages, yet was asked to fill in a tax declaration stating he was being paid above award. The regional manager, a pillar in the uniting church community along with many associated managers were charged with tax evasion and fraud.
The Salvation Army similarly has a very poor workplace relations record and has been investigated a number of times for corruption in their higher levels.
Many individual Assemblies of God pastors have also been charged with fraud after being caught taking large tythes from their members, even to the point of convincing people it would be in thier best interests if they would take out second mortgages to tythe that, or sign over the titles of their houses to the pastor. The pastors have then been caught embezzling church funds. There seems to be a large number of very wealthy preachers within the Assemblies of God ranks.
A more personal grievence with a pentecostal church was when a lady that was a member of the congregation, one of the most loving and joyful people I've known, was asked to leave the church because she had told the pastor she was experiencing clairvoyance. This, according to the pastor in a rather nasty sermon he delivered after the fact, was clearly the work of Satan who has been possessing this lady. She was without a doubt the most "christ-like" person in the congregation.
I have had similar encounters myself while in the Salvation Army, when it was becomeing quite clear that I simply was not going to fit into the box that they demanded of me. More than once I was prayed over to be released from Satan's deceptions in order to be freed of the desire to move along the spiritual path that I felt I was being called to.
Corruption, cliques, control of thought and narrow minded dogmas are what I experienced most in church. I could go on and fill pages here with examples of these problems that I've experienced, but I do not feel the need to dredge up any more of a forgotten and forgiven past.
Kind regards,
James.
Eh, I guess I should have added a few things to clarify a bit.
I came here before I lost religion. I was here for about 8 months actually, still making sure everything was OK with the rules of Catholicism...
One of the books I read is featured on these forums, and it's called "The Value of Life". It's a book about reincarnation, something that the Catholic church has shot down as 100% false. I've always believed in it, and the book just strenghtened that belief.
Another thing I forgot to mention was the fact that I am in CLC (Catholic Life Community). It's a youth group with the church. Even though I've given up on the religion, I'm gonna stick it out with these guys until I'm forced to leave with the rules that apply there... (You're not a youth at 18 [:)])
I'd never tell them anything about my life as I do here, nor would I tell my family. So I'll still be dragged to church on occasional sundays and be forced to listen to some guy do the same things again and again...
That's one of my issues with the church. They never change. It's the same words over and over again. It's the most boring thing I've ever had to sit through all these years, and I'm sick of it [8D]
~Squeek
There was a time that I was open to all religions. My friend is Catholic, so one day I went to church with him. The priest that was holding prayers that day was drunk. To add on top of this he drank wine on that very sitting (Said it represented the Blood of Jesus). He then began to walk down the steps with bread in his hands (to dip in the wine and feed the people) when he almost fell down the entire fleet of steps. I then thought, "No wonder drinking is forbidden in Islam and Judaism."
After the "hearing" was over and it was time to go home, me and my friend began to ask the priest questions. He failed to reply us with legitimate answers and offered us free Bibles instead. I did not want a Bible, I wanted answers! I began to compare the Bible he gave me with other religious books out there and came to the conclusion that the Qur'an made more sense, and here I am now, a Muslim.
The church never failed me yet.
Fortunately for me, I have never put my trust in a "church" as I believe that is silly. I put my trust in God and I know He will never fail me. Whent he truth rests upon your soul and you realize your true identity as a son or daughter of God, a part of the source, nothing will ever fail you again because you will realize that the only person or thing that can fail you is yourself.
The church never really failed me. I stopped going when mine switched pastors. The new pastor preached about money giving every other sermon, if not every one. I still believe in God and much like Tab, my faith comes from my understanding of God, not from a book. When I stopped going to church the woods behind my house became my church. I enjoyed being there and found God. I believe taking childern to church is a good thing though, because they learn about God when their parents might not be able to teach them. I would never trade my church experiences for anything, nor do I want to go back.
-Kyle
Yes, church did fail me. I do not believe I need to sit in a building and listen to people beside me trying to tell me I'm going to hell... Thats not why church was invented. I find that my home is my church, my parents are my priests, and god is always with me. I believe in god, yes, but not the one that is going to send every last person to hell [:)]
The people of the church I once was a member tried to stop my satanic rise to power so I was forced to eliminate them all...
But on a more rational note I think that if you get any group of people together sooner or later someone is going to get hurt. People are completely incapable of being nice to each other and church people are some of the worst!
quote:
Originally posted by Mohamed
There was a time that I was open to all religions. My friend is Catholic, so one day I went to church with him. The priest that was holding prayers that day was drunk. To add on top of this he drank wine on that very sitting (Said it represented the Blood of Jesus). He then began to walk down the steps with bread in his hands (to dip in the wine and feed the people) when he almost fell down the entire fleet of steps. I then thought, "No wonder drinking is forbidden in Islam and Judaism."
After the "hearing" was over and it was time to go home, me and my friend began to ask the priest questions. He failed to reply us with legitimate answers and offered us free Bibles instead. I did not want a Bible, I wanted answers! I began to compare the Bible he gave me with other religious books out there and came to the conclusion that the Qur'an made more sense, and here I am now, a Muslim.
Very good point about drinking.
quote:
So I'll still be dragged to church on occasional sundays and be forced to listen to some guy do the same things again and again
I feel you there brother. Its pointless, after three years its the sam readings over again. Just differentiating a religion from other religions defeats the point right there. Religion is supposed to bring people together, not lable them for their brand of belief. I don't completely dissagree with Catholocism, I just disagree with a lot of things things that it says, all of them, actually, are things people interpretted (for the most part). I've even had a few talks with my mother (she's Catholic) about things like heaven and hell, and she agrees with me on a few things (except I believe in reincarnation). Like that there is an actual entity Satan. There is no one being that controls all the evil in the world, evil comes from human greed and thoughlessness.
And I dunno why but I just have this massive pet peeve about people who take the bible literally. My friend's mom won't let her son practice psionics because it is "devil worship", hasn't even thought twice about the writings on Psipog about how it has nothing to do with religion. People fear what they don't know, most people are in fear, and I hate stupid people [:P].
Then there's the entire past of Christianity that really gets under my skin. The Crusades. The Inquisition. The Salem Witch Trials. If I were alive back during the trials, I would most definitely been burned as a heretic, even if I kept my mouth shut. People would just use it as an excuse to get me out of their life (yes teenagers can be very cruel). What happened to Thou Shall Not Kill? It should be changed to Thou Shall Not Kill, With the Exception if Thou Has Different Ideas, Beliefs, Etc. (see clause 2.035 of legal document 4c yada yada legal mumbo jumbo) But thats our world today.
Ahem, religion especially christianity is nothing more than an emotional protection racket, believe in Jesus or go to hell is the message, might just as well be "give me your money or I break your legs", for this main reason I reject it on principle. I have never been religious, I don't believe a word of it at consider it totally harmful to the world at large. Organised religions are about power and control and seek to serve themselves and not others.
Is Christianity not just a watered down version of Judaism anyway? Jesus was apparently king of the Jews after all, so christianity is based on a compromise and not on true faith. "Ooh that Judaism is a bit full on, I know lets make it a bit less radical and call it er, Christianity" what a crock of poo.
I for one do not need a god in order to know the difference between right and wrong and I suggest that no-one else does either, don't carry on being a sheep, you must go out and be the shepherd instead, don't accept something just because you are told it by a man in robes, seek the truth and the facts and this way you will find enlightenment.
...Furthermore (sorry), do you know why the clergy wear robes? Well it's quite simple, to make you believe them. Psychology is the key here, conformity and obedience. We will naturally prefer to follow the group/congregation (conformity) and will be much more willing to accept what we are told by what we percieve as an authority figure. We identify authority figures by their dress, such as policeman, security guard or in an experimental environment a scientist in a white coat. In this case we identify the authority figure by his robes, it's a calculated and deep rooted attempt and subsequent success by the church to control us through the use of psychological techniches in this case the trait of obedience.
Thankyou.
I grew up Mormon, left it two and a half years ago, returned five months ago, and have since left it again. I will say that the Mormon religion has a lot going for it. The idea that we could be rewarded with Godhood after a faithful life appealed to me. There is a lot of love and peace in those who follow mormonism. But one of the guys I worked with started telling me one day about all of the "proof" he had that Joseph Smith could never have been a prophet. I took some of this back to my friends in the church, who all had agruements proving his "proof" to be false. This got me thinking. You really find what you go looking for. If you want the proof of something's falseness, you can find it, just as you can find proof of its truth. This made me question the very nature of organized religion. It seemed too internal to me to be dictated by all of the rules and standards that I didn't agree with, but followed because my religion dictated it. If religion is internal, the best we can do is follow the internal dictates of our own soul, and this is what I have resolved to do.
The church hasn't failed me yet, but I sure have failed the church!
When you think about it, a church is for sinners; if we are not sinners, we don't need a savior.
I have attended a number of churches, beginning as a Catholic, checking out the cults, and settling into an independent church which teaches what I believe the Bible does....a strong, soverign Lord.
I'm trying to not fail the church any more, but I know I'll only get out of it what I put in to it.
quote:
Originally posted by onefromsomewhereelse
The church hasn't failed me yet, but I sure have failed the church!
When you think about it, a church is for sinners; if we are not sinners, we don't need a savior.
I geuss this is why jesus told me I was to save myself and that I didn't need a church.
Xander
Good luck. There's always a first time. I wish you well, my friend.
The Church has not failed me. Nor can I think of a situation where it could.
I am a cradle Roman Catholic. There have been times that I've disliked high profile people within the church, certain pastors, people within the church, and even specific churches. However none of it has ever altered my perception that I have a duty to God (or higher power if you prefer). I perceive that actions within the church or its makeup does not alter my relationship to the greater church. In other words, the people of the church can disappoint me, but not the greater church itself.
Each persons approach to gaining wisdom must be a personal one. I would not force a person to church, nor constain the decision.
Needless to say, I'm in deep conflict right now as I'm pretty sure that attempting OBE violates some major rule somewhere for *me* (ONLY A SIDE NOTE, please no debate).
I am new to this forum and this is my first post.
I was brought up as a Catholic also. I had to laugh when I read what Mohamed said - about the priest being drunk. I was at a baptism once and the priest was so off-his-head drunk that he almost dropped the baby in the font. The sad thing is that the baby's mother thought it was funny! She wasn't annoyed with the priest or anything. I was disgusted. I left the RC church and joined another 'Christian' religion that really screwed me up big time - so now I don't know what to believe or where I'm going any more.
GNW
I have no prblems with the local church. I think the people who work there tend to be kind-hearted.
I do however have a poblem with the egocentrical bunch of hypocrits that visit the church and preach dogma without understanding it.
Sure! "The Church" has failed me, as has most anyone I've had any deeper relationship with than a passing "hello!" And, yes, I have failed my brothers and sisters as well. We, as humans, have great capacity for love and a simultaneous tendancy to hurt others through our selfishness. Who is "The Church," after all? WE (who are involved in a church) are the church. Imperfect people trying our best to grow spiritually, trim away the dead wood within, embrace our difficulties, allowing them to transform us into more humble, generous and loving people.
In my mind, "The Church" fails because it holds up an ideal after which to strive. As humans, we are bound to fall during the journey. If we simply discarded the ideal, there could be no failure, because then everything would be relative.
So, I let go of ego, and find the deep abiding wellspring of love within and try to give, to build, to transform my church and my part of the world into a little bit more of a reflection of the Good, of Heaven. I put my faith in God - the God who has touched me with His awsome love, who has healed my deepest hurts, who has shown me great mysteries and who abides with and in me, as I abide in Him. And I walk forward.
When I was young growing up, my parents were divorced and I live with my Mother and brother. Everyother weekend I would go to my father's house, he would take us to church on sundays, and my mother would everynow and then take us to church!!!! It never made sense to me,,the church that is and the religous aspect of it! I tried a time where i would try and follow all the rules,,,,it made my life miserable, like,,oh my god, my mother is going to hell because she has sex with her boyfriend and she isnt married!! My brother and I even had a jehovah witness at our house once a week for bible study, which i might add they only taught about heaven and hell, and how you have to save yourself so u can go to the paradise place or be rewarded with it!! It neve made sense to me, just taught panic and fear and judgement on everyone!! Then i was introduced to my experiences with astral projection, esp, and encounters with entities!!! I strongly believe in reincarnation!! I believe the church corrupts people's minds and gives them false hopes!! You ever notice how people in your own family with strong religious backgrounds tend to be more judgemental towards you??? but yet they are your own flesh and blood!!!!
I must admit I too am disillusioned with the church. But I think its a pity that in many cases ALL christians are tarred with the same brush. During my life I have held just about most interpretations of Christianity. I believe that the time is long overdue to get rid of the traditions that have been handed down without question and look more to the founder of the faith than those who had an axe to grind in forming tortuous doctrines that help no one. There is much in the man Jesus that I admire; much that is lost in the church. And I agree that the church has developed stratagies in the past (like hell) to frighten people into its ranks by inventing all manner of concepts presented by 'infallible' beings who just like power and position.
In my view God is in all, and we must experience him where he is most real to us. That might be in a church or on the mountain tops. For my own part, all my true spiritual experiences have come from being with nature and not inside a cold lifeless building.
I was baptised a Catholic, and, yes, the church has failed me. All it ever did was make me feel like an insignificant sinner, who was doomed to go to Hell for questioning the Bible, God, and religious ed. teachers. It's not God that's the problem,(we get along fine and I pray often) it's the church that repressed me. What especially bothered me was that women could only be nuns or laity, not priests, pastors, bishops etc. The way that was explained to me was that "Because men were created first we should follow and respect them" and another one I got is hat "because women are more emotionally involved than men, they can't become priests". I sense a conflict there! And who says that men aren't all that emotional, or that women can't be strong? Also, there is hardly any room for coming up with new ideas or doing things one's own way. For mass, you stand in a big room while some guy in a robe reads and does all the fun rituals for you while the people behind you, who you also don't really know, cough on you. You get lectured and dogmatized and told that you're a sinner who doesn't deserve to go to Heaven, but if you do exactly what they tell you to, you will.[xx(]
God and Goddess help us!
I was born into a Lutheran Family. Not avid by any means, but none the less we went to church fairly regularly. I went to Sunday school and then to Confirmation classes. By the time that I got confirmed...I was really wondering who I was doing this for. Me or my family? Sure, I believe in God. But, not the way that Christians believe in him. I do not believe that there is a "heaven" persay and I do not believe in half the stuff that the bible says. I do believe, however, that you can worship God in your own ways, that you do not need to stand up in an organized religous church to be a believer. Besides, organized religion is very misconstrued. And it has been from the beginning. I believe that church is another way to control the human race, and that is wrong. Scare tactics...like hell...are some of the reasons that I have turned away from the church.
It is great though, to read everybody's thoughts on this issue.
The Church has not failed me, and I have faith that it will not in the future.
I have been Roman Catholic all my life, though I only got questioned and got serious about it in the last 5 years. Before that, I just took things how they went, and ignored the teachings. As I began to mature, I started reading things that interested me, basically religion and spirituality in general. I liked a lot of what I read, but ultimately I am where I am now--a Christian of the Roman Catholic Church.
Why am I on this board? Well, I believe in paranormal phenomenae, and I also believe that there are certain things that are dangerous to participate in, as they can lead to demonic possession. Lucid dreams seem to be psychological and almost limitless possibilities, though I've only experienced one. ESP, premonitions, etc. are gifts from God, for whatever reason I do not know. I am happy that I have not been "blessed" with these, as the responsibility is great.
The main reason I am still with the Church, is because it is not just physical and temporal, but goes beyond into the metaphysical, into eternity. I have contemplated the Mysteries, and they have given me strength. Infinity! Who can comprehend it?
If you have any questions about me or Catholicism, ask. Thanks.
Dear people,
I am pleased to say that the Catholic Church education system in N Ireland totally and unequivocally failed me. Five years shared with my fellow students under the evil hand of their corporal punishment regime in the 1970's put paid to any faith in the so called priestly representatives of that so called mother faith.
Subsequent to leaving my scholarly institution I was to find over the years that not only did many students gain great success in their personal lives in the arts, professions and politics, but also a number had massive breakdowns, attempted suicides etc. Later I was to learn that the fairer sex suffered no better at the hands of their educational caretakers!
I was told that apparently the church sometime in the late 80's or early 90's made a mumbled apology regarding its treatment of the children in it's care, but never made a clear admission of their guilt in the public arena.
So there you go!
Kind wishes,
Stephen
P.S. I am not angry about it now, and forgive the evil barstewards [}:)]
P.S. To give you a flavour of experiences had by other students see the link below. I take no responsibility for the contents of the site. Therefore apologies if it offends anyone's sensitivities, although some of it is actually quite funny. (other mods are welcome to delete)!
http://www.network54.com/Realm/sheensflipper/sheensflipperdotcom/newhomepage.htm
Stephen,
Sheesh! No wonder people are afraid of God... when her representatives are so ruthless in punishment and claim that it is the will of God!
Kerri
Thinking of the Catholic education system, I find it rather humerous and with a beautiful irony that I have met three women recently that while attending Catholic schools, became introduced to the "evils" of the occult. All three became witches while at school, and have never looked back!
So we can see that Catholic schools have at least some capacity for providing people with useful spiritual learning. [:)]
I was brought up a "born-again" christian. We didn't go to a church as such, but met in the local community centre, or at each others' houses.
It was all I knew as a child, so I never thought about it much. Only as I got older did I start to question it. I remember one incident where I was taught that our religion was the only way, and everyone else was wrong. I then imagined a Muslim parent telling her child the exact same thing. That was the start of the end for me.
I cut all my ties with religion as a teenager and haven't looked back. My parents are still believers, although they don't go anywhere now. The housechurch that I went to disbanded due to "goings on" by the elder with the female congregation, something I was totally unaware of (luckily) until only a few years ago. I suppose in its day, it would be a sort of cult, although this seems terribly dramatic.
I had a lot of love and a great upbringing as a child, due to this religion. However, I wish that I had been taught that religion is a choice, rather than a predestined path. It has made me very wary of any belief and I am quick to mock rather than show interest in religion now. [:(]
Great thread Beth and it's nice to get it off your chest!
Sarah
I was raised in a pretty average moderately conservative Protestant home. We left my first church when I was pretty young when it began to collapse internally, for reasons I'm still not sure of. In the years that followed I tried every church nearby at least once, Catholic, Methodist, Assembly of God, non-denominational, Lutheran, etc, but my experiences at the two main churches we finally setlled on were behind most of the reasons I left church for good.
My family ended up at an Assemblies of God church that I found reasonably enjoyable; I liked the music, and the pastor's preaching style. Well, that all changed when I began going through some personal issues during a dark time in my life. As I was still relatively new to this place, and an extremely private person in general, I took extra precautions that my personal information not become public; there were people there I knew from other circles that I definitely didn't want finding out in any case. At the time I didn't want random strangers praying for me or whatever; I just wanted to be left alone to get through things in my own way. In the months that followed I debated whether to go back, and decided to try getting in touch with the pastor to find out exactly what was said/printed, and who told him. He responded by making a judgmental statement about not having seen me in church lately, acted like I was completely wasting his time, and didn't actually answer any of my questions. At this point I decided I wouldn't be going back there.
Around the same time I was semi-regularly attending another church with some friends. Their worshipping style was significantly more, ah, active than I was used to; my style is much more introverted and reflective. I would've been just fine with that if they could have accepted me just as I accepted them, but that ended when their pastor started making comments, publicly putting me on the spot for these differences that were making me feel self-conscious enough as it was. I'm not a big fan of being put on the spot, so that was the last time I went there too.
After that I decided to take a break from the whole scene and evaluate my beliefs and such on my own -- this break has now lasted almost 8 years, and the one time I set foot in a church since then was a favor to someone else. This has all come as a blessing in disguise, however. A lot has happened in my absence, including falling back in love Christ and his message, yet coming to a lot of independently researched conclusions that would probably be considered rather unorthodox. As for church, I have decided it does not fulfill many, if any of the purposes for which it was instituted by Christ. I'm not just one of those people who goes sour on church because of the conduct of its people either -- I believe its very structure is what makes the modern mainstream church system inherently flawed to the core. As such, I have no use for it anymore, at least until I either find or start one that is structured and functions the way it was intended to in the 1st century.
Hi Palehorse,
Your last paragraph I find quite significant, and indeed a common feeling among those who have come to their on conclusions about the modern christian church, including myself.
Since leaving the church and starting out upon my own spiritual path, I have found the teachings of Jesus himself, his own words, to be so much more wonderful, so much more relevant and meaningful when not shrouded in the hypocracy of religious institutions. The veil that he tore has, in my opinion, been very carefully stitched up again.
Kind regards,
James.
quote:
Originally posted by James S
Hi Palehorse,
The veil that he tore has, in my opinion, been very carefully stitched up again.
Excellent way to put it. I don't think that stitching job is going to last, though. A while back I saw a survey, the conclusion of which was that Christians are leaving the institutional churches in record numbers, yet still staying very religious and/or spiritual. People are looking for something genuine, and "churchianity" just isn't cutting it.
It seems that once Jesus obliterated the idea of a middle-man between man and God in the form of clergy, so many people liked the idea so much that the "veil" never fully recovered. Though institutional religion did manage to hold the stitched pieces together via brute force for quite a few centuries, the human spirit has won out, and today it seems that their attempts to continue along those lines only pushes them further and further into irrelevance.
When my grandmother was alive, my family use to go all of the time to a Christian chruch. After she died, I can't remember going much, until some of my friends moved in down the street from me. They invited me to chruch, Baptist, and it was something I actually looked forward to (never went on Sundays, 'cause I was sleeping and wanted to watch the X-files [:I]). One day, my neighbor died, somebody a lot of people new about. On the next night, I went to church, and they alway had this thing where they pray for people (hurt, deceased, etc.) who are in need. I wondered why nobody kept the woman who died's daughter in mind and didn't pray for her or anything. I asked someone and he said that it's because she doesn't believe. I left. [hmm, and I just realized that I never returned their book (coin book, not Bible)] I had gone to another Christian church because of a woman living with us. My sister got baptised there. The woman left, I never got to go back to the church. I went back to the baptist church, and then stopped after a while because I just didn't feel like going anymore. Last year, my sister asked if I wanted to go to church, I did, we went. I thought it was interesting, funny, etc. Then I realized that everybody there were . . . strange. They have their own beliefs for people who come, especially a woman who's divorced with kids (I guess they were thinking that my sister was there for a guy or something) and some people had this look that made me think they didn't trust me. I didn't even notice this until one morning that I came in looking like I was drunk (couldn't help it, my hair had was messed up, my eyes were hurting from the light, and all because I had stayed up late; can't remember why I stayed up late, I just did). I left them as well. I also tried reading the Bible by myself, but had a hard time understanding everything, especially since there's a lot of confusing things in there. I listened to a Christian radio station, but those people are just weird too.
Maybe I'm just picky and think the world revolves around me. Then again, maybe it does [;)]
edit: oops, forgot to mention . . . now I just sit around watching reruns of the X-files. I don't think anybody in my family even goes to church anymore. My elder sister and I only because we can't find one that's suitable (why pay for gas to getting there AND giving them ten percent of your paycheck?). Also, at some point, my aunt became, uh, I think she's Jewish now, back I only found out last November or something.
I find that many people become very bitter and even resentful at religion when they feel that they have been betrayed by it or by someone representing that religion. I think most people in religions are sincerely seeking the truth and want to do the right thing. When ever you have a human organization you will have corruption because people are corrupt. It doesn't mean that religion is wrong, it means people do wrong things.
I decided to join the Catholic Church in the 5th grade; not because of any profound experience or inspiring logical argument but because of actual miracles that could not be explained by science. Such as saints that have been dead for hundreds of years and they are as fresh today as when they were alive. You can prick them and they bleed. Hosts (bread) used in Mass that change into human flesh and have no cut marks on them (one was tested to be human heart tissue).
At Fatima Portugal in the early 1900's the Virgin Mary was reported to appear to three children. Over 20,000 people were gathered and thoroughly soaked from pouring rain. Then the sun appeared to be crashing towards them and their clothes became completely dry from head to toe.
I became a devout Catholic and even attended seminary for 2 years to become a priest. I was there to see if God was calling me to become a priest.
My confidence in the church was dashed when I saw how unreligious many of the priests were, and I was expected to look up to them for guidance, when they themselves were thoroughly lost. Many of the seminarians there were sincere, kind, and devout. I left the seminary because it just didn't settle with me the right way. In my gut I knew that something wasn't right.
For some years after I was a dedicated Catholic. I was going to church and reading everything I could get my hands on. There is one Christian teaching which just didn't settle with me. It was that you absolutely positively could not get to heaven if you are not baptized and accept Jesus as God. Hmmm ... how about people in Arab or Indian countries who have no opportunity to know anything about Christianity? According to the Bible Jesus will send them to Hell to be eternally tormented.
Well this got my mind working again and I started looking at whether there is any evidence that people from other religions can go to heaven. Well I found that other religions have equally impressive miracles as Catholics such as elephant statues "drinking" milk to the point where there was a milk shortage in India. I think there is a Buddhist, possibly a yogi, whose body has stayed uncorrupted after his death like Catholic saints. Even that some devout Buddhists burst into light at their death (which would explain the image on the shroud of turin).
It wasn't until I read about OBE that I was really convinced that you didn't need to be a member of any religion or group to get into heaven. These are actual experiences from living people that you can even experience if you want to.
So my current view is that I'm not bitter at the Church or organized religion. I'm a bit annoyed at the monumental waist of time that I spent learning more about Christianity when I really could have been taking more responsibility for my own actions and developing my full potential. But hey maybe that was necessary for me to grow.
The biggest difficulty I have now is living somewhat of a double life. One is pretending that I'm a nominal Christian so that my parents (When I went into the seminary they became very devout) and friends don't freak out thinking satan got me. I'm slowly nudging them with ideas that maybe things aren't as cut and dry as they may think.
In general I find that it is isolating if you are not a Christian in American society. Especially if you have views similar to many people in this forum. Even though it is more difficult to fit in with others I am happier now than I've ever been and more understanding of others because I've gone down that road too.
quote:
how about people in Arab or Indian countries who have no opportunity to know anything about Christianity? According to the Bible Jesus will send them to Hell to be eternally tormented.
Actually, this is only according to a very narrow interpretation of what the Bible actually says, and one that is based on mistranslations and poor logic. I'd be more than happy to discuss this further; I also have an essay I've written on the subject if you're interested.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/palehorse13x/hell.html
Has The Church Failed You?
I know that this is the case for many people, myself included. If you would like to "get if off your chest" and share your experience with others, feel free to use this thread to do so.
Sometimes we need to "vent." Many people probably have a lot in common in this area, so you can also look for yourself in the words of others.
Peace,
Beth
IMPORTANT NOTE: This is NOT a debate thread. This is a very personal thread, and as a moderator, I will immediately edit and delete any posts that intrude –in any way—upon these private experiences. This is also NOT a thread for offering religious advice or counseling. This is a thread for sharing experiences only. If someone breaks this rule before I catch it, I respectfully ask all members NOT respond to the offending post, but rather PM me so I will know what is happening.
I do not want this thread to get out of hand.
could write a book about it myself. our local catholic church was abysmal. the natives were very stuck up and did not like newcomers, seven of us were newly confirmed one year and each of us had bad stories to tell ranging from accidentally sitting in someone elses seat, or the seat that they always sat in and getting bitched at for it, to one of us having someone get up and shout at us in front of the whole congregation. I could go on, and on, and on.
we couldn't ask questions or we would be sent to the priest who didn't have the time to answer them even if he wanted to or was even there.
we were judged and we were unwelcome.
the only thing i know is that not all churches were like that and some newcomers to the faith in other towns got on well.
my true path is not a christian one anyway, so no losses
I feel that the Church has let me down the same way that schooling has let me down.
Both institutions discourage learning by experience and independent curiosity.
God does not need the Church in order to reveal himself.
In other words, churches, who needs them? :-)
Yes he does. Try knowing Jesus died for your sins without someone telling you, you won't.
School is at least teaching something useful in the professional world to use for survival and employment, as well as teaching social adaptability.
Quote from: TyciolYes he does. Try knowing Jesus died for your sins without someone telling you, you won't.
Try knowing what is and what is not a sin without the same person having to tell you (or knowing that sin exists in the first place).
QuoteSchool is at least teaching something useful in the professional world to use for survival and employment
Like what?
Quote, as well as teaching social adaptability.
You mean to think like everyone else?
Quote from: TyciolYes he does. Try knowing Jesus died for your sins without someone telling you, you won't.
Quote from: TelosTry knowing what is and what is not a sin without the same person having to tell you (or knowing that sin exists in the first place).
What's your point here?
Quote from: TyciolSchool is at least teaching something useful in the professional world to use for survival and employment
Quote from: TelosLike what?
Literacy, mathematics, science, geography, history, typing, physical fitness, marketing, communications, music, art, must I go on?
Quote from: Tyciol, as well as teaching social adaptability.
Quote from: TelosYou mean to think like everyone else?
No, I mean how to deal with other people. Schools do attempt to instill some basic morals which I think is fine, as they are usually positive. Any the child doesn't like he can throw away, unless he's so impressionable that he takes anything at face value. In that case, religion may be a fine alternative that's easier for him to learn... one's he's literate. Otherwise people can lie to him about what the bible says and he won't know anything different.
Quote from: TyciolYes he does. Try knowing Jesus died for your sins without someone telling you, you won't.
God and Jesus... 2 totally different things. Jesus is just like us really- just an ordinary man who became a great spiritual master. God does not require a proxy. And besides, whatever description someone can give of Him is sure to be faulty. This is the purpose of spiritual practice... to have a direct experience of God.
EDIT: I didn't notice the first post of this thread, which states that this NOT a debate thread. Oops ;)Quote from: TyciolQuote from: TyciolYes he does. Try knowing Jesus died for your sins without someone telling you, you won't.
Quote from: TelosTry knowing what is and what is not a sin without the same person having to tell you (or knowing that sin exists in the first place).
What's your point here?
That Christianity first impresses upon people that they are sinners, then offers Jesus as the only means to salvation. That believing in Jesus requires that you first believe that there's something wrong with you.
But my main point is that your statement that God needs the church in order to spread information about himself is silly. God can do anything he wants.
QuoteLiteracy,
Parents do more to teach literacy by reading along with their children at bed time. From there, children automatically learn languages by exposing themselves to it, by reading more books, looking words up in the dictionary, and by practicing writing by tracing outlines on stencil paper.
I learned how to write completely in cursive with no guidance from an instructor when I was 4 years old, and so did everyone else in my class (I was in a Montessori school). The instructors job was mainly to enforce discipline, so that you didn't skimp on work.
Exposure is what's key. Not instruction.
I realize some children aren't fortunate enough to have such parents and ready access to books and dictionaries. But the fact that illiteracy is still such a problem in the US, inviting "No child left behind" restrictions, only shows that schools don't get the job done.
Quotemathematics,
Schools do more to stunt interest in mathematics than any other subject. Every year, the same material is learned over and over again, with piecemeal advances at the end of the spring. Students are required to do repetitive simple calculations, drilled endlessly, while they are prevented from advancing into more challenging concepts. Nor are they exposed to real world situations where math is used. By the time students reach their senior year in high school to learn calculus, most of them have learned to hate math.
Regardless, math is best learned by practicing examples and then checking it with a calculator, and then a friend or an expert if you're stuck.
My friend is finishing up his education in order to be a math teacher. He has serious reservations with the methods of teaching that are going to be required of him, and knows that much of the math he teaches will be meaningless.
Quotescience
What a joke! Of all subjects, school educates science - a means of understanding the natural world - cooped up inside of a classroom. But worst of all, children are discouraged from using the scientific method on their own. Instead of experiencing the joy of scientific discovery, by creating their own hypotheses and means of experimentation, children learn about science as something other people do.
In the early years, science is a vocabulary course. It might as well be grouped with english. Later on, students watch their teachers do tired, classroom context "experiments" where you mix baking soda and vinegar. Some very simple math is introduced. In high school, the math is emphasized, but not put to use. Students calculate Ohm's law of electricity. So what? Does that get them a job? No. If they wanted to be an electrician, they'd learn the same thing in their technical school.
In college, undergraduate students start over learning more advanced vocabulary and are graded mostly on how they write "lab reports" and perform experiments which have conditions that are already delineated. Post-graduates, the same.
Finally, when you're a Ph.D., you can actually starting doing work.
Quotegeography
As if students don't know how to read a map, after they play with countries and states as puzzle pieces when they are 3 years old? Or when they draw out lines in the sand to plan games?
Like literacy, the key is exposure.
Quotehistory
What job needs history? None.
Arguably, you should know history if you're going to be a responsible voter in a democracy. But teaching history in school has always been the most direct insult that children don't know how to read a book on their own.
Quotetyping
Yet another skill that is learned automatically due to necessity
Quotephysical fitness
Don't make me laugh. Kids are fatter than they've ever been. Gym class teaches rules to games.
The best physical fitness is learned in extracurricular sports, or in other words, outside of school.
Quotemarketing
This is new... what school did you go to? What did you learn in marketing?
Regardless, I majored in marketing for a while while I was in school, and not only did I think the information was useless, I actually went to various marketing professionals, who confirmed my suspicions, and I quote, "you won't use any of that information in the workplace."
Quotecommunications
What do you mean by this? Public speaking? I never had a class that required that until my second semester of college.
Quotemusic
I went to a small school. No music education except for a singing class, and schools like that are not rare.
Music can be picked up on your own, anyways, after a few visits with an instructor and listening to some tapes.
Quoteart
Total nonsense. As someone who prides himself on teaching himself art despite boring projects in school, I won't stand for you using this example - not in the least. School art projects are restricted to guidelines. "Make a chicken with brown construction paper," "draw flowers in black and white,"... an on and on, so that every student in the class is doing the same thing. And when everyone is doing the same thing, that's non-art.
Quotemust I go on?
Yes! That is, if you like. You and I have often agreed in other threads, so you seen smart ;)
QuoteQuote from: Tyciol, as well as teaching social adaptability.
Quote from: TelosYou mean to think like everyone else?
No, I mean how to deal with other people.
This is an on-going general area of learning, that requires absolutely no schooling, and is actually detrimental when subjected to schooling. It is often used as the excuse for dropping students into totally meaningless group projects, where there is no objective except to do it as a group. The students know this and are frustrated by the mindlessness of it all and blow it off.
People can't deal with one another on global scale. Perhaps the ability to deal well with others is genetic, and not likely to be learned or unlearned?
QuoteSchools do attempt to instill some basic morals which I think is fine, as they are usually positive.
Like what? By the time I entered my public high school, it seemed like a pretty moral-less system. Students openly swore at each other and at teachers, talking about giving each other head, having sex, and doing drugs.
QuoteAny the child doesn't like he can throw away, unless he's so impressionable that he takes anything at face value. In that case, religion may be a fine alternative that's easier for him to learn... one's he's literate. Otherwise people can lie to him about what the bible says and he won't know anything different.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I was raised in a Catholic school and, let me tell you, when you're raised Catholic - you're Catholic. That's how you instinctively see the divine. You really don't have any other choice, unless you try extremely hard, and it's not likely to work. You always have the background thought, "is God going to punish me for thinking this?" and "how many years in purgatory is that gonna cost me?" and the thought that you are a "lost sheep" if you stray from the ideas. It's a very questionable practice of indoctrination, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Every other person I know who was raised in a similar manner as the same feeling.
School is mindlessness on one part of the spectrum, and Church is mindlessness on the other part.