The Astral Pulse

I won't make up your mind for you nor is it ethical that I do so.  So here is some sites that should help YOU make up your mind.  When in doubt, arm your mind with truth and facts to temper the direction of your hands and heart.  

Here they are...

  http://www.buddhanet.net/

  http://www.islamworld.net/

  http://www.himalayanacademy.com/

  http://www.cwrc-rz.org/

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism

  http://www.jewfaq.org/

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism

  http://www.deoxy.org/shaover.htm

  http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/

  http://www.positiveatheism.org/

  http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/

  http://www.ulc.org/

  Then, after you've perused ALL these sites (no need to memorize them...)  read this book and THEN tell me what you think... "And the Truth Shall Set You Free"  by David Icke

i think he does [|)]

thankyou for your opinions. im still not sure tho i mean theres no evidence, some religious person could have made it up in the beginning and told his followers to go along with it, how would we know whether  thats tru or not, its complicated but needs to be found out!!!

is the bible all true????????????????

stop asking dumb questions.

p*** off you dumb f***

How mature of you. Don't spend all day thinking of something intelligent to reply with now..

ok i wont[:P]

The bible is all true, including the parts that contradict. Dont ask me for contadictions. Look up "bible contradictions" on google if you want to see them. There are many.

lau-

Ok first, I wanted to state that this is a question that has been clichéd if you know what I mean. [:)]

Ok, now, onto the good stuff:

Not a single person here can tell you that there is "proof" of god/jesus.  They can tell you, however, of personal experiances with the person(s) they have encountered.  I for one think that God is real.  However, you have to make up your own mind.  Also, don't look for Proof.  You will never find proof in the physical world because god is not in the physical world, rather the spiritual world.  You must decide for yourself what to believe.  If you are a serious Astral Projector (more than a novice would be best[;)]) then ask your spirtual guide to bring you to god.  You will be surprised! If you noticed my philosophy quote below, "The most interesting people in the world are those you do not understand" then you can even apply that to god.  Good luck with your decision, it is one that is tough to make, but I'm absolutely sure you will find the answer you seek!

Did Jesus exist-probably.
Was he the son of god-unlikely.
Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
There is not and never will be proof of the existence of god.

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There is not and never will be proof of the existence of god.

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Which contradicts the previous affirmations you made...  [:P]
No proofs = maybe yes/no.

No it does not you imbasil, there is documentary evidence to support the existence of Jesus, whether he was the son of god or indeed whether there is a god is in my opinion nonsense. It's the same as if I claimed to be the son of god, I clearly do exist but there is no god and so I am not his son, comprende?

Ok, let me try again for you:
You say: "Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible.", which basicaly translates to "God does not exist".
Then, you say: "There is not and never will be proof of the existence of god."
Don't you see the problem?
How can you say it does not exist without proofs...?
And no need to insult me, it won't help you to convince me...

I presume English is not your first language.

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Originally posted by Nagual

Ok, let me try again for you:
You say: "Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible.", which basicaly translates to "God does not exist".
Then, you say: "There is not and never will be proof of the existence of god."
Don't you see the problem?
How can you say it does not exist without proofs...?
And no need to insult me, it won't help you to convince me...

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Makes sense.

Here are my oppinions,
does god exist? = yes whether you know it or not he does, and how you might ask? well if he didnt exist than we wouldnt exist and in theory i doubt the big bang would have any relation to creating humans. why? because it just wouldnt. He is the one and only true creator of this  beautiful universe. and for all you satinists out there who believe the devil is god or something, you should know that the devil was a fallen angel and was a being at one time. and if you dont believe in god it shouldnt make any differance because your not believing in the devil either.
and in other posts made, god is not a being, if he was something would have to create him. i believe the one thing that created everyting that made an infinite amount of things creating things and so on was god, and god which isnt a being but something of pure good and i guess evil is just there. its complicated  to explaine but in the futrue we will all figure out what is and what isnt.

thanx for reading,
T_Kman0610

The point is i'm being asked to prove that god does not exist, lets be honest about where we are all coming from, you know that I don't believe there is a god and I presume that you do. Well there is no proof that god does exist. You prove to me that he does exist then, have you any concrete evidence of gods existence?

I simply think he does exist. Faith...

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I presume English is not your first language.

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Jimbola, that's all you have to say...?  So you won't answer if english is not my mother language?  That's a little weak; I expected something more challenging from a "christian basher" like you (guessed from your useless website)...

Personaly, I don't care since I am agnostic...  You keep demanding people that believe in god to prove that he exists; but you yourself keep saying he does not exist and don't give any proofs either...

You just come in this forum to have a "fight"; a useless fight...

look in a mirror jimbola. do you really think that organic life evolved from non-organic non-living toxic soup like evolutionists claim?

how many attempts would there have to be for the soup to actually create life? about a 1-in-many-billion chance of it happening. and then how many of those successes would be needed for one of the one-celled organism of organic matter to learn how to consume food in order to continue living? and how many attempts after one figured out how to continue living before it figured out how to procreate? and then how many attempts after one learned how to consume food and procreate before it learned how to teach it's offspring to consume food and procreate? and how many more attempts before they learned to work together in order to create a mult-celled organism? and then what are the chances of not just one type of organism evolving from that but the billions of types of organisms that have existed on this planet for quite some time now?

the sheer chance of all this life being here is so small that by statistical probability it is impossible, ESPECIALLY considering that (supposedly) the earth is only a few billion years old and it took how long for such a possibility as just creating the first life form (according to the scientists who believe in evolution?) to occur?

so which do you think it is more logical to believe in? God or no God?

next: logic dictates that you cannot prove a negative. you absolutely CAN NOT proof that there is no God, there is absolutely NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that can show that something does not exist. if you think you have proof, you're an idiot.

and finally jimbola: if you can't spell imbecile, should you really be calling people that? (you spelled it as "imbasil")

and to lau: there is proof that jesus existed.
as to proof of God: people see what they want to see, and don't see what they don't want to see.

~kakkarot

Read carefully. My assumption that english is not your first language was based on the fact that you clearly did not understand what I was saying. You basically called me a hypocrite because you did not understand what I was saying so I returned by calling you an imbacile (thanks for the correction, which dictionary do you use?) now it is true that I cannot prove a negative, well heres news for you I don't have to, you must prove the positive. There is no proof that god does exist. This is not a useless fight, you are simply offended because I have challenged your views to which you have no logical basis.
This website is simply not balanced if it is frequented only by people that will frankly believe anything.

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You basically called me a hypocrite

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Could you quote me saying you were an hypocrite?

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you are simply offended because I have challenged your views

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You said: "There is not and never will be proof of the existence of god."
I said: "Which contradicts the previous affirmations you made... No proofs = maybe yes/no."
You said: "No it does not you imbasil"

You call me "imbasil" and you wonder why I feel offended...?  [|)]

Ok, let's try again:

Could you please translate in simple words your sentence?
"Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible."

How can you state that something does not exists until proven so...?
The only thing you can say is: maybe it exists, or maybe not.

I side with my old mush jimbola on this one. Faith is good but what we're discussing is proof of God's existence, which doesn't exist. Yeah, the bible teaches good stuff, but I don't think half of it is true. Maybe Jesus was just the David Blaine of his time.

Jimbola, it's imbecile. And yes, I agree.

Which website are you insulting Naushal? If you say a thing about rage club then it's Fist City for you mate.

Evolution is completely logical in my opinion. You say that it's a one in several billion chance - well there are  several gazillion chemical reactions going on at any given moment, so this is probable. Also, Earth got lucky, there are trillions of suns with hamillions of planets so one is bound to get lucky. Besides, there's proof in antbiotic resistance shown by bacteria.

Thanks mate.
"How can you state that something does not exists until proven so...?
"
Surely you can see the flaws in this one. Please prove that there is a god.

Bringing your friends to the rescue jimbola...? lmao [:D]

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If you say a thing about rage club then it's Fist City for you mate.

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[:P], I'm sure that your mate will be very helpfull in this forum.

Now, my question is still pending...  Here it is again:
Could you please translate in simple words your sentence?
"Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible."

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"How can you state that something does not exists until proven so...?"
Surely you can see the flaws in this one. Please prove that there is a god.

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It's funny how you avoid some parts of my questions like...
"The only thing you can say is: maybe it exists, or maybe not."

Maybe you will get it with an example:

I tell you that there is an animal that can live in acid.  So, until I prove it to you; does this mean this animal does not exists...?  Nope; it just means that maybe it exists or maybe not.

Another one:  If I tell you that I have hum... a red key in my pocket, but I don't care enough to prove it to you.  Does this mean this red key does not exist?  Sure it does; it is in my pocket.  And who cares if you don't believe me... [|)]

It's not because you don't have a proof of the existence of something that you can state that this things does not exist.  Period.

I can state whatever I like if it is my opinion, you say that if there is no proof of something then that is not sufficient grounds for discounting it as a reality, I believe that in certain cases such as this that would not be strictly true. A key being in your pocket is entirely believable, I consider that god existing is not.
No my friend, if you wish to have people actually believe in the reality of what you tell them then you must prove it otherwise it's just gossip or hearsay at best.
And to answer your question yes, god does in my opinion only exist in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
Whats the matter anyway, do you not like alternative opinions?

Something more/less believable means nothing...  For some people without contact with modern society, what is common for us like a simple plane/TV/camera, is unbelievable to them.  So, god, acid fish, key... all the same.  Who cares about belief.  I did not expect someone down to earth like you to show some beliefs.

You still did not answer my question...  Here it is once more:
Could you please translate in simple words your sentence:
"Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible."

And for your mate: if you read my posts, I said:
"That's a little weak; I expected something more challenging from a "christian basher" like you (guessed from your useless website)..." which is, from his profile, http://jesusseesus.com .

And for me this site is useless and meant to attract christian people and try to offense them.  By the way, you have XXX material and no warning for children!  I don't know if it's legal in UK; gonna check.

Jimbola
You are simply not being honest and straight forward, and seem to be locked into a stubborn self generated viewpoint. You keep sidetracking the conversation with emotionally loaded statements and make absolutely no sense. It's like as if you want to prove that Africa does not exist and there is no such thing as a giraffe. Just becourse you do not understand it.

I am sure that many people who first heard that the Wright flew said that just isnt possible , like the key in the pocket, that ain't logic!! However they did, and it is, but at a very much higher level that most folks knew about then.

Lots of things seem hard to believe at first much later make a lot of sense. History is full of them.

Now if you decide to continue this attitude , I expect you and Lost Prophet would make fun ridicule and agress against this post, and you know what ....be my guest.

I can garentee  you one thing, you will learn nothing new but will most definately only solidify yourself in your own pre concieved idea.

Regards Mustardseed

For the secon time I will answer your question yes, god does in my opinion only exist in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
What part of that don't you understand?

The Wright brothers flying, the television, all tangiable solid inventions, scientific developments such as gene therapy so we may "play god", I can believe in anything like that, I am happy to accept that someone may one day do the "impossible" and invent a machine which removes the fluff from my belly button automatically on a daily basis, a god however is an entirely different concept and science is proving every day that the universe can be manipulated in many ways by humans without god being involved in any way. You seem to imply that I am narrow minded because I refuse to accept the notion of a god in the face of no evidence whatsoever, I could accuse you of the same for your harbouring of the opposite view, I would even go so far as to say that you have been brainwashed by religious organisations who put far fetched ideas into peoples heads with a view to controlling them.

proof of God's existance? perhaps there is some, perhaps there isn't. but if you already believe that "there is no proof", then any real proof shown to you will be swept under your mental carpet.

many scientists already do this by trying to explain away metaphysical things as physical things. they've been duped and made fun of by frauds and fakes too often in the past while not being able to explain the real metaphysical happening, and so rather than look like fools they've taken to the stance that the metaphysical is make-believe and have made that proclaimation so strongly and with such authority that anyone who disagrees is instantly labelled insane or ignorant of the "truth".

in this instance, though, it's not about having proof or not, it's about your attitude of wanting to instantly reject anything that actually could be proof. as asid before: people see what they want to see, and don't see what they don't want to.

but if you really want proof, what kind of proof would satisfy you?

and the dictionary i used was www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

~kakkarot

Please don't presume to tell me what I would and would not think, if I am shown proof I will certainly look at it with an open mind. Away you go then, if you can prove it i'll believe it.

I have seen a man blind in one eye healed thru the power of prayer to Jesus the Son of God.  Saw the gray film that covered it fall off.  go ahead and explain that one away.  What does it matter what we say to you?  You will never listen.  You say you don't have to prove a negative?  But on the other hand you are "proclaiming" that God does NOT exist which in itself is saying you are POSITIVE that God is not a part of the equation.  Well.......OOPS........Looks like you are not playing by your own rules.  If you are so POSITIVE that God is not a part of the equation.  PROVE IT.  The burden of proof is on you just as well as on us.  Believe what you want to believe.  We do and its why we have a word called FAITH.

God bless,

PF

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For the secon time I will answer your question yes, god does in my opinion only exist in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
What part of that don't you understand?

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Lol, what about what part of translate in simple words don't you understand?  I keep asking you if you could translate your sentence; and you keep repeating the same sentence unchanged...  It won't help much.  I don't know gullible.

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and science is proving every day that the universe can be manipulated in many ways by humans without god being involved in any way.

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Really?  I am curious; how did they prove that god was not involved?

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if you can prove it i'll believe it.

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You come here because you know that it cannot be proven using scientific tools...  It's like if I ask you to count the cosmic rays or measure the level of radioactivity using a spoon.  And how do you want to prove something you cannot even describe?  And what about the many so-called scientific proofs that turned out to be wrong after a few years?

There are no scientific proofs; only scientific theories.  Some seems to work; others seems to work until they find out that something else was going on.  All just theories.  There are so many things out there that science cannot prove yet; but we still experience them.  So no proofs does not mean not existing.

You're just one of these forum trolls that pops in a topic about XYZ and say "f*ck XYZ" to tinkle of people.  And your not even good at it.

I wasted enough time with you.  Go on with your trolling if it makes you happy... [xx(]

OK can both sied at least accept that there is a possibility that they could be wrong.

Jimbola, do you accept that there could be a God, even if you don't think so?

Christian dudes, do you accept that there may not be a God? That there is even the slightest chance that the bible isn't true? It's fine having opinions but at least try to accept other people's.

Personally, I don't think God exists, but I could be proven wrong when I die. Until then, I'll try to lead a good life, but I probably won't take much notice of the bible. You don't need religion to be a good person.

May I now refer you all to to title of the thread which is I gather asking us our opinions, I quite legitimately gave mine. Unfortunately the small minded thought police do not accept that I am entitled to that view and have sought to discredit me. Now I accept that it is your right to hold whatever opinions that you like, just that I disagree. I disagree with the assertion that there is a god and I disagree that you believe you do not have to prove his existence.
Nagual, i'm sorry I did not realise that you actually wanted me to translate the words into another language, a gullible person would believe anything, for example the hapless victim of a poor conman would be gullible.
Why would anyone try to measure gamma rays with a spoon? they would not, it has never happened, you cannot compare silk with sandpaper. The blind eye crust thing-is it not conceivable that your willingness to believe let you be tricked into beleiving something that just never happened, have you ever heard of charlatans?
I am not trying to tinkle anyone off, you are clearly doing that to yourslves.

I agree with lostprophet [|)]
Again, I am agnostic: I think there is no way to know.

And I took the stupid spoon example to say that the tools we have are not adapted to prove/disprove that god exists...  You ask for proofs of god's existance while knowing that there is no way to do it...  Especialy when we don't know/imagine what god is.  It's a bit like trying to describe what salty or sweet tastes like.  You just can't describe it; you can just give it a name...

The only thing that could be said, from logic, is that something created all this...  That's all.

Giving your opinion is fine.  Calling people gulible and sitting there asking for proofs is not.  And your website showed that you were biased from the begining.

Nagual, ultimately I do agree with what you have said, your last comments cannot be disputed. I choose not to believe in god because as far as I can see there is no evidence to support such a theory, I will only ask for proof of gods existence if as has happened I am poo-pooed and told that I must disprove the existence of god. The fact is that there are many things which cannot be proved conclusively and I may or may not accept them as a reality. A "god" in the traditional sense is to me a far fetched notion and for this reason I reject it.
The website that you have viewed on my profile is not owned by me, it is just comedy, I will change it.
I have not sought to offend anyone here, but merely challenge the beliefs that on this website are treated as fact, balance is essential but I accept that I have adopted a heavy handed approach, what mystifies me is just how offended some people have become that I dared to disagree with them that god is a reality.

well alright then. to answer lau_lauz in the most complete manner i can, i have met God on one occassion, so that is proof of His existance.

is that good enough proof for you too jimbola? or would you instead just believe that i'm gullible?

~kakkarot

The most mystical experience I ever had was a shooting pain in my leg as I was walking to where I broke my arm. I've never met God, but I'm sure he's a nice guy if he exists.

Well I thought you had wasted enough time already but since you insist then no, your claim to have met god is not good enough proof for me, frankly I do not believe you, have you got video evidence or something?

Now, I would agree with jimbola... [|)]

Kakkarot, the fact that you (think you) met god might not be enough to prove its existence to you and others.  The problem is, as I said earlier, there are no proofs; only theories.  I don't deny the fact that you experienced something; but the problem is the interpretation of this something.  Maybe you really met with god; or maybe you saw something that you took for what you consider being the representation of god.

A silly example I use often: People used to see the sun go around in the sky; so they used to think that the sun was, like the moon, rotating around the earth...  They experienced it but interpreted it in a wrong way.  Some people believe that when you take a picture of themselves, you are stealing their souls...  Etc...

So, to answer lau_lauz in the most "honest" (no offense) manner i can, try to find out by yourself for yourself, without any preconcieved ideas; knowing that maybe there is no way to know.

Keep your mind and your eyes open.

and so i'm proven right: if you'll sweep that kind of proof under the rug, what kind of proof could possibly satisfy you?

a video? hah, even if i actually had a camera and got God on tape you'd just say that it was video editing. would you even believe in God if HE Himself showed Himself to you, or would you say it's merely a hallucination?

i met God, there is no question about it (to me). however, as i've said before (in another thread) personal experiences can't really be shared after it's happened because others can just come up with excuses as to why not to believe.

but no worries, i've heard many people make up excuses for why they don't want to believe things other than what they already believe. i've heard it from both christians and non-christians when each was presented with strong arguments against their beliefs. for instance, the bible is NOT "perfect" and yet most christians will believe to their death bed that it is, regardless of any proof shown to them. many aethiests disbelieve in God not because of any actual proof to show that God doesn't exist or lack of proof to show He does, but because that's what they've chosen to believe and no proof whatsoever will change their beliefs.

because, that's the thing about proof: a person can still decide to ignore it in favour of their own silly little opinions.

~kakkarot

Dude don't stress. We all have the right to our opinions. I don't believe in God, and I probably won't until I am proven wrong. You have to admit that you saying you saw something you believed to be God doesn't consistute proof by a long shot. Maybe you could describe, how, when, where and under what circumstances this meeting came about?

Unfortunately your assertion that you have met god is NOT proof, it's just your word, so I have every right to discount it as part of my silly little opinion.

Oh lau_lauz this question is so easy. Why do you have to ask everyone when you already know the answer?

Your answer is simple, let me tell you what you already know.

YES GOD DOES EXIST

And dont let any non believer tell you otherwise!! Understand?

So how do you intend to back up that statement?
I suppose another interesting question is how would you define god?

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let me tell you what you already know.

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Hum... I love that! [:P][;)]

alright then jimbola: prove that flowers exist.

~kakkarot

Greetings everyone,

In order to answer the question "does God exist", it is necessary to first define "God".

If referring to "God the deity" of the for example Christian religion, the benevolent, tyranannical, vengeful, capricious God who sits on a golden throne in high places, flanked by Archangels while delivering judgements on mankind; then no, that God does not exist.

If we are referring to "God the Universe", everything that is, "The All", the God who is an aspect of every one of us and everything else in existence, and we an inseperable aspect of Him/Her, the God who is perfection and Who's Universe is governed by immutable laws which apply to everything and everyone without exception, the God who does not require to be flattered, worshipped or offered to, or requires "intermediaries" to deliver His/Her will - then yes, God most certainly does exist.

And yes, of course Jesus was a Son of God, just as every single one of us are equally Sons and Daughters of God, made in the true image of God. The "true image of God" refers to Spirit, not the human form as many suppose.

With best regards,

Adrian.

It is soo funny how a proper greeting and then some statements made by someone with a lot of stars can make an impression!!

Greetings Everyone, very effective and persuasive!

Well since Adrian did not say it, and probably assumes that everyone allready knows this, though some might not , I will clarify.

The above post os Adrians opinion!!!! . Just Adrians opinion[:)].And he is nobody special, he ain't Budda or Brama, and certainly not a Christian or a prophet or anyone else, and never claimed to be. He is just a guy who has a bunch of stars and administrates a webpage. He might think he knows a lot about the universe as many of us do, but he does not have the answers to the questions life asks. He has a few guesses however, thats all. His opinion is not based on anything else that the usual stuf opinions are made up off. Life experiences, hearsay, logic and the opinions of others.

The remark about Christianity is just his way of saying that he is not a Christian!! [;)].

Dear Adrian
I agree with you , God exists! He is Love !!and he inspires us to love, he is not trying to scare folks into hell but to love them into heaven. According to our faith, YOU (or I) are not God , you are made in the image of God, yes your Spirit not your body, and you have been given the ability to be "like" God. It is as if (metaphor) you are a Radio reciever made to recieve and transmit Gods words his love and answers to lifes questions. All you have to do is tune in, and it is the hand of faith that turns the knob. God is the broadcasting station he is the electricity as well. You are the faucet He is the water. He also has chosen a mediator between man and himself, Jesus , who has "been there done that" and understands man and his life.

Christianity is not about judgements condemnation hate and all that. It is all about love. The statements you make show you have no real deep understanding of the Christian way. If you agree Adrian, it might be best if you ask us to speak for the Christians. I then will not speak for you as above.

Regards Mustardseed

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In order to answer the question "does God exist", it is necessary to first define "God".

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How can someone define something that he cannot honestly describe?
What are these definitions based on?
There are so many different pseudo definitions of God; based on faith/beliefs/pseudo-interpretations/hearsay/books/traditions (= baseless).
So far, God(s) is/are what people wants/wishes it/them to be...
Here is my definition of God: God is the unkown; the undescribable; the unknowable.
And even giving it a name is "wrong".

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It is soo funny how a proper greeting and then some statements made by someone with a lot of stars can make an impression!!

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actually, i find that adrian's manner of posting, his maturity and thoughtfullness, make the impact. the greeting is just being nice [|)].

but once again, to say something does or does not exist is merely saying it: as jimbola has been adamant in pointing out proof must be shown.

however, we all should realize that over such a medium as the internet no real proof can be given: photos and videos can be doctored, personal accounts can be ficticious, even supposed scientific findings can be ignored by other supposed scientific findings which may or may not truly negate one another's findings. and because of this, anyone asking for proof over the internet must have a certain amount of trust as well as a good ability to discern what a good source is from what a bad source it.

lau_lauz may not know any of us so well, so just reading what we've written regarding our opinions may not be good enough for her. which means of course that any "evidence" either for or against the supposition that God exists must come from a source that is reputable in lau_lauz's mind.

however, our problem is that we don't know what lau_lauz considers to be a reputable enough source: does she consider us reputable just because we have so many stars under our alias? i would hope not [|)], as ides315 said one time (not an exact quote, i'm working from memory) "i find the people who talk more are the people who understand less" (eventhough that isn't true 100% of the time, it is often true). so then, as i asked jimbola: lau_lauz, what kind of proof do you want?

~kakkarot

Oh dear, "prove that flowers exist"
Go and see your local florist who I am sure will be able to provide you with a shop full of proofs. Alternatively I believe churchyards may have some examples.
I am very glad that you have all now engaged in a serious debate and are not merely accepting of eachothers word. You are proving to your credit that many members here are not as naive or gullible as I was led to believe initially.

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Originally posted by jimbola

Oh dear, "prove that flowers exist"
Go and see your local florist who I am sure will be able to provide you with a shop full of proofs. Alternatively I believe churchyards may have some examples.

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and how am i supposed to know that the florist is telling the truth if i'd never seen a flower before in my life? they could all be fake for all i know.

but i'm sure flowers do exist-"in the minds of the gullible" [|)]

~kakkarot

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:

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Originally posted by Mustardseed
The above post os Adrians opinion!!!! . Just Adrians opinion[:)].And he is nobody special, he ain't Budda or Brama, and certainly not a Christian or a prophet or anyone else, and never claimed to be. He is just a guy who has a bunch of stars and administrates a webpage. He might think he knows a lot about the universe as many of us do, but he does not have the answers to the questions life asks. He has a few guesses however, thats all. His opinion is not based on anything else that the usual stuf opinions are made up off. Life experiences, hearsay, logic and the opinions of others.

Regards Mustardseed

---

Thank you very much indeed for your assumed profile of me [:)]

I would just like to confirm that my words are indeed my opinion, albeit based on around 40 years of seeking, and I am most assuredly not Buddha, at least that I am aware of [:)] Neither do I purport to know everything, who does, all I try to do is to pass on the benefit of some of the things I have learned over the last few decades, and it is then for people to accept it or reject it.

I do find it interesting how you always seem to go straight onto the offensive whenever I post here, as if you see my word as some sort of threat, even perhaps the truth, thereby denting your belief system. Let me assure you that I am not trying in any way to attack christianity, all I am interested in is the truth, and if the truth is at odds with christianity then so be it. In all of these matters open-mindedness is vital to progression.

As for God; everything is God; the entire Universe is God. Nothing is separate from God including human beings, you, I and everyone else. Everything and everyone is Spirit, equal aspects of God.

The real point is however that God is not the deity as personified by christianity. God is the Universe, and, not wishing to be repetitive, operates in accordance with Universal laws and in particular cause and effect. Everything in the Universe is an effect of a preceding cause. God is not interested in flattery, praise or being worshipped, indeed God does not even "think" in those terms, God is "everything that is". To that end, those who believe that they will be "saved" and buy their ticket to heaven by going to church each week, praying, making a contribution to the church coffers and reading the bible are sadly deluding themselves, and more importantly seriously affecting their own true Spiritual progress.

Yes, God exists, and with the most powerful force in the Universe; Unconditional Love, a Love which ultimately wants nothing more than for each and every one of his Sons and Daughters to return to Him/Her having attained that level of perfection; this is the meaning of life.

I must apologise in advance for being the forums Administrator and having achieved five stars for my posting contributions (as have several others), but this is my honest opinion nevertheless [:)]

With best regards,

Adrian.

quote:

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Originally posted by Adrian
The real point is however that God is not the deity as personified by christianity. God is the Universe, and, not wishing to be repetitive, operates in accordance with Universal laws and in particular cause and effect.

---

but are you sure that there is not BOTH the "christian God" AND the "universal collective-spirit which is sometimes called a god"?

after all, i could say that an apple is really an orange and "prove" it by showing you an orange, but just because an orange exists, does that mean that an apple doesn't? [|)]

from my experiences (though they only be a fraction of adrian's [:)]), reality is not an "either this or this but not both" system. it seems very much to be a "this and this, each doing their thing which sometimes overlap one another" kind of universe. ie, you have an apple and an orange, they are different, but each is used for eating and each can do many of the same things that the other can do (grow, reproduce, be made into juice [:D], etc). i very much strongly believe (with my own personal experiences for why i believe it) that there is both the "christian God" and a "universal collective-essence which could be easily thought of as a god".

but that's my opinion, not neccessarily truth [:)].

~kakkarot

Dear Adrian
I apologise for my forthright manner. I have not singled you out and I do not look for a fight so to speak, not at all. You are right that I question you and others and I believe I have every right to. I do find you and others on the Administrators list quite pompous and self important, but what the heck, I find myself quite on the "large" side as well. I do have one point that I tend to make a pet peeve. I know it is a bit silly for most who post here regularly but never the less. Squeek made a point of spelling , grammar etc. so...My point is

Please make sure you tell folks that all the stuf you tell them is just YOUR OPPINION, ( no they dont know!!!!) it aint the undisputed truth it aint beyond questioning. People are gullible Adrian, they look for a person to lead them, just look around. I bet Robert could have had a nice little Cult had he not had the integrity and fear of God or Higher self or whatever, and had he not activly fought against that idea.

I do believe we also have something else between us. My bad sence of humor and my little scorpio digs. It is not so serious nor intended to damage. (though sadly I realise veryt sensitive folks are not at ease with me so much) I am working on that[:)].

Let it be said for the record that we agree on one pivotal point. WE want the TRUTH , come hell or high water, if it is the Christian way so be it , if the Christian way is not the truth I hereby renounce it and commit myself to finding it. However I think it is[;)]

Ps I never went to church sat in the pews paid my tribute and acted like a hypocrite. I stand by my faith Adrian. All my adult life I have been a Missionary, I earned my pay through sickness and suffering . More than 25 yrs now with the poorest of the poor, without help from the Church or organized religion. I fear no man and give my allegience only to God and his son Jesus.

Take care

Regards Mustardseed

quote:

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our problem is that we don't know what lau_lauz considers to be a reputable enough source

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First, I wonder if she is still reading...
Second, the only reputable enough source would be... herself.  Not saying you or others here are lying; but let the first guy who has never been wrong throw me the rock (or something like that [|)]).
And even her could/will be wrong in her interpretations.

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:

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Originally posted by Mustardseed

Dear Adrian
I apologise for my forthright manner. I have not singled you out and I do not look for a fight so to speak, not at all. You are right that I question you and others and I believe I have every right to. I do find you and others on the Administrators list quite pompous and self important, but what the heck, I find myself quite on the "large" side as well. I do have one point that I tend to make a pet peeve. I know it is a bit silly for most who post here regularly but never the less. Squeek made a point of spelling , grammar etc. so...My point is

Please make sure you tell folks that all the stuf you tell them is just YOUR OPPINION, ( no they dont know!!!!) it aint the undisputed truth it aint beyond questioning. People are gullible Adrian, they look for a person to lead them, just look around. I bet Robert could have had a nice little Cult had he not had the integrity and fear of God or Higher self or whatever, and had he not activly fought against that idea.

I do believe we also have something else between us. My bad sence of humor and my little scorpio digs. It is not so serious nor intended to damage. (though sadly I realise veryt sensitive folks are not at ease with me so much) I am working on that[:)].

Let it be said for the record that we agree on one pivotal point. WE want the TRUTH , come hell or high water, if it is the Christian way so be it , if the Christian way is not the truth I hereby renounce it and commit myself to finding it. However I think it is[;)]

Ps I never went to church sat in the pews paid my tribute and acted like a hypocrite. I stand by my faith Adrian. All my adult life I have been a Missionary, I earned my pay through sickness and suffering . More than 25 yrs now with the poorest of the poor, without help from the Church or organized religion. I fear no man and give my allegience only to God and his son Jesus.

Take care

Regards Mustardseed

---

I take if for granted that people accept what I say as an opinion unless I am reproducing information from elsewhere. It would be extremely tedious and impractical to preface every sentence with "in my opinion", or "I think", or "I believe" or whatever, and I have no intention of doing so.

As for christianity vis a vis the entire grand Universal scheme of things; you have to remember that the events which gave rise to christianity are but a minute blip in history of the planet. A religion built exclusively around the words of one person, Joshua, otherwise known as Jesus. I know we have discussed this before, but there is no proof whatsoever that Jesus said any of the things he was supposed to have said according to the bible, it all being written down hundreds of years later after being passed on by word of mouth in the form of fables, legends and so on. It is like that party game "Chinese whispers". Assuming what he said has been written down accurately, it has most certainly been misinterpreted due to its mysticism and symbolism. Most importantly, when Jesus taught that he is the son of God, what he clearly was trying to put across was that everyone is a son or daugher of God, not just him. And the God he spoke of was a conceptual God in a form which people would understand.

The point I am making is this; the true nature of the Universe and the nature and destiny of mankind  has been taught for thousands of years throughout the entire world, and all of these teachings have been almost completely consistent. Indeed, they are even consistent with modern quantum physics. So how is it that christianity chose to focus on this one time period and the activitities of one single man about whom not much is really known to claim the things they do? The fact is, it forms a convenient basis for a dogmatic religion, a belief system by which the masses can be controlled. Religion generally completely fails to accept, and in some case attacks, the wisdom of the ages from numerous sources, knowldedge which would of course completely destroy the orthodox churches and their books. Most religions are nothing more than a complete act of faith.

You will not find the truth unless you seek the truth, the problem being that most people will not seek the truth; it is much more convenient to simply believe in the creed and dogma of the church. In other words, if the bible says it is so, then it must be so.

I certainly admire and respect you for standing by your faith and in particular for your missionary work. At the final analysis, Spiritual progress in the higher spheres, the "heaven worlds" will not be determined by faith, it will be determined by enoblement of the Soul and Spirit, transcending the ego, selfless service, realisation of Spirit, or God within, and above all Unconditional Love. I believe that, notwithstanding your faith, you clearly possess many of these attributes, the same attributes which will determine your personal evolution. All I would suggest to you is that rather than simply accept religion out of faith, why not dedicate some years to open-minded seeking and then decide.

I hope you didn'tfind my response overly "pompous" [:)]

With best regards,

Adrian.

Well yea its a bit pompous but thats ok [;)]. There are soo much we agree on but yet so much we do not agree on. How about you Adrian take a few years off to come with me and explore Christianity and Jesus. I think you will say ....benn there done that. Please do remember my path was esoteric and in the occult before my Christian life. I studied both Buddhism and Hinduism as well as a lot of different other religions and faiths very sincerely . My faith is built on what I have learned through these studies. I am not a blind believer. I was brought up in a communist atheist country, and never enherited my faith , I found it by searching for the truth.

Regards Mustardseed

quote:

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My faith is built on what I have learned through these studies

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Could you explain a bit more what you mean by studies plz?

I explained in a post elsewhere that I lived in India and Nepal for some years as a traveler (before I became a Missionary.I read the Vedas as well as the Tibetean book of the dead and furthermore "studied" how these religions practiced what they preached. I spent many many years with Buddhist and Hindu friends and aquaintances and learned from them as well. It was not a academic study but I felt it taught me about the realities of the religions based on how they affected their followers. Like someone said, "there is nothing wrong with Christianity the only problem is that so few ever tried it". I said in a earlier post that I believe that those countries are where they are at partly becourse of their religions. Just my opinion.
Regards Mustardseed

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:

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Originally posted by Mustardseed

Well yea its a bit pompous but thats ok [;)]. There are soo much we agree on but yet so much we do not agree on. How about you Adrian take a few years off to come with me and explore Christianity and Jesus. I think you will say ....benn there done that. Please do remember my path was esoteric and in the occult before my Christian life. I studied both Buddhism and Hinduism as well as a lot of different other religions and faiths very sincerely . My faith is built on what I have learned through these studies. I am not a blind believer. I was brought up in a communist atheist country, and never enherited my faith , I found it by searching for the truth.

Regards Mustardseed

---

Well, I have always remained completely remain open-minded, and accordingly never dismiss anything merely as a matter of principle. And, as you know, I am fully aware of the teachings of the bible and what they represent, including the teachings about God and Jesus.

It has to be said (again) however, that the bible, in and of itself is a fundamentally flawed source of information, for all of the reasons which Beth has so excellently put forward within these forums. There is no point at all going over those reasons yet again; they are already archived and available for all to read at will.

In addition, I am not seeking, and have never sought to follow a "belief system". I am a seeker of the truth, both by my own experiences, and by means of the totally objective evidence, knowledge, information and wisdom which is, and always has been available in abundance all around the world throughout the ages, as well as from higher sources. As I mentioned before, all of these sources are remarkably consistent with each other, and indeed even with modern quantum physics, and none of which have any resemblance with christianity or any other dogmatic, orthodox religion whatsoever.

I have never disputed that Jesus (Joshua) ever existed, but I do believe that his words and intentions have not been accurately represented or understood. He was (and still is) likely a very high initiate, incarnating into the physical world as so many Masters have done before, and have since, at the appropriate time and place, in order to teach humanity Spiritual truths and realities in terms understandable to the people and cultures of the time. It is equally clear, as has been said many times before in these forums, that the words of this man, who, by the way, was not heard of almost from the time of his birth until a couple of years or so before he passed over, have been totally and utterly misunderstood, translated and interpreted in strictly material terms, and almost certainly have little in common with his true mission. In fact, he is probably extremely dismayed at all of the attrocities which have been carried out in his name over the centuries; countless deaths in the name of christianity and other orthodox religions.

How can anyone seize upon a book composed by numerous people hundreds of years later from hearsay, fables,and legends, and which have been retrospectively selectively translated and re-translated, interpreted and re-interpreted entirely to suit the controlling aspirations of the churches and indeed of whole nations, become the basis for the Spiritual progression of all humanity for a large percentage of the worlds population? It is little wonder the planet is in the state it is in. If everyone lived in accordance with true Spirituality, the path back to our Creator, there would be no materialism, greed, suffering, avarice, hate and all of the other things mankind is largely characerised by, and there would be no distinctions between rich and poor. Your excellent missionary work would not be necessary.

In absolute terms, it seems likely that people require a "system of belief" in order to feel comfortable, and in the hope they will find themselves in "heaven" after passing on, and, rather than seek the truth for themselves. It is much more convenient to take a "packaged" belief such as christianity, read the bible from time to time, go to church once per week, and simply hope for the best. Even those who do not go to those extremes nevertheless exist each day in the hope that by simply believing and praying to God and Jesus, as a complete act of faith, will be enough to guarantee them a ticket to heaven.

With best regards,

Adrian.

(Adrian said)
It has to be said (again) however, that the bible, in and of itself is a fundamentally flawed source of information, for all of the reasons which Beth has so excellently put forward within these forums. There is no point at all going over those reasons yet again; they are already archived and available for all to read at will.

Dear Adrian
I think we should let sleeping dogs lie, and I also do not want to get into this again so I suggest you too leave it alone!!!!The above statement shows you do not. There has been many posts that Beth did not adress. Lots of points that was not considered and writings that were almost ignored. As someone pointed out you cannot provce a negative!

Correct me if I am wrong....

Just becourse I cannot find archealogic evidence , a set of Jesus milk teeth his old shoes, or his exam sheet from the carpentry school [;)] it does not exclude the possibility that he was a real person lived and did the things the Bible says he did. I agree that we are hard pressed to find such evidence as he was not a king or noble person but hated and dispised and obviously the jews that crucified him were eager to "make him go away".

It is all by faith.

That is what I said to Robert in our very first posts. Why do you not stop at that and simply say . Well I for one dont believe it!!!! Why is it that you and others HAVE TO DISPROVE the bible. I do not see this zealousness in dealing with other religions. On the contrary it is "friendly exploration" here and friendly exploration there , it is Satanism and Zetas and what have you!!!!HELLO!

Do you believe that the Vedas are "real" that Krishna is a little blue guy, and the world was deluged in a flood of milk, saving the just and making the cow sacred.? If you do not please spend some time as the moderator "attacking" Hindus and that religion for a while, and leave the Bible alone. you are being unfair.

All I said is, God delights in making things a mystery, "he has hidden things for the wise and revealed them on to babies" that no man should Glory in His presence. He is the God of the Universe Adrian and he could have done it that way..... thats all. I never needed proof anyway. If you have proof it is no longer faith, you do not need faith when you have proof right!. As far as Beths posts, she and you seem very Biased. I also said before that if the Bible was the truth you would be up the creek wouldnt you, might that not be a reason why you try so very hard to disprove it, so you will not have to acknowledge it and the truths and absolutes in it?.

With all due respect Adrian...Your knowledge of the Bible is purely philosofical, and in the "mind" like a book report or a theater critique. You do not have a very deep understanding of it nor have you studied it with your heart. If you had you would not speak as you do. Out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks, and what is in the heart overflows through the mouth.

Regards Mustardseed

Hello Mustardseed--have you missed me???[;)]

I felt compelled to check in tonight for some reason and now I know why--you woke the sleeping dog!![8D]

Now Mustardseed, you know that I tried my level best to answer all your questions.  The ones that I did not answer--were questions asked with a very negative attitude, and I told you I would not respond to that kind of thing.  The ones that I did answer--you did not like what I had to say, and that my friend is not the same thing as not receiving an answer. Bottom line--you have not been slighted on this board in the least--you have just not encountered as many "like minds" as you would prefer.  

You say we are biased--so are you.  We all are to a great extent.  Each of us base our view of reality on our experience and knowledge.  The difference between us?  You are trying to bridge a chasm between two different worlds Mustardseed--one world where new exploration is taking place all the time--all the while you are also hanging on to another world and culture that is 2,000+ years old.  

When you are ready to hear a new up to date message--you will hear it.  Until then, you will only hear what you are hearing now.  When the student is ready--the teacher will appear.  I was obviously NOT your assigned teacher--nor is Adrian, Robert or any of the other good people on this board who have spent countless hours trying to help you understand.  Until you can accept something different--you won't.  

I will only make one other point on this post of yours and that is--most intelligent people around the globe recognize that "religious stories" are just that--religious "stories"--important stories that tell of religious things.  Christianity is the one primary exception to this--and they have truly convinced a multitude of people for hundreds of years that--"The Greatest Story That Was Ever Told"--actually happened in real life.  

If we could just get past this "reality problem" and read the Bible as the "Story Book" that it is--we might actually be able to learn some very important things from these wonderful stories. For example--what could the Bible be telling us about "resurrection" besides the claim that only one person did it?  What is being communicated to us about the meaning of a "virgin birth" besides that it only happened to one woman?  There is so much that you do not know Mustardseed--about the ancient cultures that produced these stories, and about the languages that they were written in.  You speak not from rational intelligence but from faith.  And this is not the same thing as "mind" vs. "heart."  True intelligence comes from both the mind and the heart.  Faith and limited knowledge comes from the heart alone.    

Until we rise above this whole "literal business" then people like you will continue to battle against those of us who have a different take on the Bible, who have actually spent years studying it--for no matter how much evidence we give you--it will never be enough.  We have offered here a great deal more evidence that the events didn't happen than you have provided that they did.  When you open your mind you will truly know what an open heart feels like.

Well this dog is going back to sleep now.  I am sure you won't mind this at all--will you??  I will check back in a few days, however, to see if you respond any differently than you always have.  (No, I am not running from the playground like a little girl with hurt feelings--I have more important things to do right now than continue with circular arguments.  Perhaps in a few months I will feel spunky again.)

Peace,
Beth

p.s. Hi Adrian, et al!!![:D]  
 

Reality is how one sees it first hand.

quote:

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In fact, he is probably extremely dismayed at all of the attrocities which have been carried out in his name over the centuries; countless deaths in the name of christianity and other orthodox religions.

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You seem very compassonate Adrian. I believe individual experiences leads us to look at things according to proximity to ourselves directly. For instance,  I  had a relative in a military conflict in every war since the civil war that I know. The only person I ever knew to die in war was from another country. I have to wonder what this means. For me, many things are concepts, some things are real. Personal impact I guess you could say. Shouldn't this be a basis for a stand per se?  I don't really know about your personal experiences, so forgive me if I'm touching on a sensitive area.I'm not meaning that "concept" doesn't make an impact, just in proportion to personal involvement and point of view.

I think this is where Beth misses the message of Mustardseed. Beth, you may not be hearing your teacher.

Concepts can be held by a group or be individual.A group doesn't make a concept real either. Beth, you are allowing yourself to be supported by something or someone other than yourself. Your sounding like a self appointed elitist. This makes it the correct way? What is your reality?  Really, I would like to know. And please, more information on this global intelligence group. Could this also be one of them who sent you the Forbes report you placed out of the clear blue in the Welcome to Modern Christianity section? If this doesn't reflect your distain and hate for Christians, I don't know what else could. Why are you masquerading as a Christian anyway? You can say the same things without the mask. Oh yeah, you may get a bigger draw in disguise. Are you driven by politics, or is it the possibility of money from your book, in the name of christianity for the sake of big sales?  

No offense Beth, but if you would get your nose out of your "Story Book" every once in a while, you might get another form of education. There are different layers of reality too.

Hi there Beth. How is the book coming along? Good I hope. I thought you would be checking in once in a while and even post if anyone tinkered with you pet peeves, and I was right [;)], so welcome!.

Well I actually meant that this subject was the sleeping dog not you. It just seems to me that it would be best to agree to disagree thats all. Maybe you would be so kind as to make join me in some "friendly exploration", as well. Adrian was asking me to take some time to explore other religions and I thought that was what I was doing. I in turn asked him to do the same but I dont think he feels the need.

You know Beth there are so many things I would like to adress with you but it would be a lot of work and I am afraid it would not be appreciated by you. I think it would be somewhat like the allegory or metaphor "Give not that which is holy unto dogs and do not cast your pearls before swine ,lest they trample them under feet and turn on you and rend you". Let me just say this.

When someone posts a message or adresses a point on the forum I try to "feel" the spirit. I ask for wisdom and dicernment. In the past you were somewhat civil and kind but you have become increasingly more agressive offended and indignant and it seems to me you are most definately on a quest. I got the impression that you felt "something alerted you" to this discussion. You had a "feeling" that you should look and did and it was confirmed. You sound like a person being "led" or "guided" someone who is on a mission, with divine presence needeling her. I can relate. It has always been my belief that you can deny Jesus by not speaking up when you should!. But what is your Mission Beth. Who is the enemy of your cause?

I am not a very intelligent person. I never claimed to be. If this is the reason I have not seen the light ,well then so be it. I am however quite intuitive, maybe that is another kind of intelligence, and this intuition tells me that you do not want to be friends you dislike me becourse of my faith, and resent me becourse I do not believe as you! I fint this in contradiction with your past posts. You have on a very thin varnish of tolerance, but when you do not get what you want and if people disagree or critisice you or your work, you scratch soo easily and the real Beth is seen underneath.

I think I am here for you too Beth to give you a chance as well, but you are obviously not listening. So why dont we just stay civil and agree to disagree. I wont attack your work and faith and ask you not to attack mine.

Regards Mustardseed

Whoa now there little lady...

Wisp, you and Mustardseed are really something else.  I am not a self-appointed anything.  As a matter of fact, the reason that I do not post on this board the many extraordinary things that have happened to me through and from the Divine Realm is that I am not going to put these beautiful and blessed occurances in a place where you and Mustardseed can "have a go at them."[B)]   I am sure you would criticize or belittle them with your sarcastic comments as well.  I will not, therefore, allow you the opportunity to attempt to tarnish my experience of God like that.  My experiences are highly personal and unlike some people, I do not wear them like a "badge of spiritual superiority."

It seems to me that you and Mustardseed can have all these experiences and beliefs that are only supported by your having had the experiences themselves.  Mustardseed touts and brags about his missionary work, as though that is all he has to do to get into heaven, and has even insinuated at times that he is some kind of prophet. You, I am not sure what you are claiming to be, except someone who posts her own brand of psychology on an internet forum in response to people who share their experiences. Your psychology is part Freudian, part Jungian, part Skinnerian, and part New Age buffet.  But all in all it is just your opinion.

I, on the other hand, offer here much more than just my experiences, which are very personal and between me and God.  I have offered here truths and proofs that cannot be denied--not truths about God, but truths about the written Bible.  If you and Mustardseed would get up off your "hand me down conclusions" and actually study that which you condemn, you would both learn a great deal. When you have put forth the effort and studied the history, the texts, the documents, and the ancient languages that were involved during the Biblical period--then we have something to discuss--and perhaps debate.  Until then, you are just stating your opinion based upon what precious little you really know.  When you know more, you have will actually have a stonger support for your arguments.  Until then, they are just defense mechanisms in the form of belittling insults.  

You and Mustardseed are both intellectually lazy smart-allecks that I grew very tired of very quickly.  

I say this not with hurt feelings--or to hurt yours--what is it you always say--"no offense"?  I say this because it finally needs to be said. We have tip-toed around you guys for too long.

Good people have spent many hours on this board offering you and Mustardseed (and whoever else) a great deal of very important information -- FREE OF CHARGE.  We are the ones who have invested the time, the effort, and the expense to educate ourselves. We bought the books, took the classes, and studied the languages--for you.  We decided to share all that we have learned with you, because we know how very hard it is to get the education that we have.  We also know that it is not feasible for everyone to do.  

But what do you do instead of be grateful for the free education that you are receiving? You insult and criticize instead of learn of things you do not know. Instead of filling these pages full of empty and petty criticism, you should be taking advantage of what is offered to you here. You should be asking more questions of us instead of bringing the valid questions of others to a screeching halt with your circular arguments and marytr complexes.  If you or Mustardseed want to be my teacher--then do your homework, get the credentials and make some intellectual sense for a change.

We have all had experiences of the divine realm or else we would not be on this board.  If anyone has come across as "elitest" -- it is you and Mustardseed.  Your experiences are no more "divine" than anyone else's.  Sharing experiences is one thing, but by "comparing" divine experiences the way you two do, we are just setting the world up for more of "this is the CORRECT and ONLY TRUE experience to have" and any other kind of experience is of "SATAN" or is "EVIL."  In good old Modern Christian form--this is just plain old elitest Modern Christian rubbish.  It is certainly NOT what the original Christians would have claimed.  How do I know this?  Because I wanted to know, and I took the time and energy to find out.

And Wisp...I don't hate Christians.  I don't hate anyone.  Your comments are just more of your same ole' same ole' nonsense.

Beth

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Nagual
First, I wonder if she is still reading...

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yeah, so do i.

quote:

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Adrian
I know we have discussed this before, but there is no proof whatsoever that Jesus said any of the things he was supposed to have said according to the bible, it all being written down hundreds of years later after being passed on by word of mouth in the form of fables, legends and so on.

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actually, the books of the new testament were written within 75 years of jesus death (most written within 40 years, only a few being written from 40 to 75 years after), by the people who were actually there with him (except for a handful which were written by people who were with the apostles).

quote:

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Adrian
Assuming what he said has been written down accurately, it has most certainly been misinterpreted due to its mysticism and symbolism.

---

i do agree with this thought, even today (and not just over the past two thousand years) there are innumberable people who would change what the bible says in favour of what they want it to say, as well as there being too many people who just flat out don't understand it but talk to others as though they do (thereby spreading ignorance).

it's not just "actual christianity" which seeks to say "this is the truth", there have been an unlimited number of people both in the past and in the present who merely use the bible as a footstool to promote their own brand of "truth". and other religions are not exempt either: most (though not all) do try to declare what they believe to be true as "the Truth" that all should believe.

it is important, imo, to seperate the actual teachings of a "religion" from what people merely say the teachings are. hard to do sometimes, but it's like someone trying to say that science has done (or figured out) something it hasn't, and getting people to believe the lie rather than what science has determined/done.

quote:

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Adrian
You will not find the truth unless you seek the truth, the problem being that most people will not seek the truth; it is much more convenient to simply believe in the creed and dogma of the church.

---

i also agree with this: there are many stupid dogmatic and doctrinal beliefs in the so-called church which blatantly contradict the original christian teachings.

but even beyond that, if a person truly seeks the truth they CANNOT merely cling to the beliefs they've grown up with and only "seek" the truth within their own religion. to truly seek the truth one must take all of their beliefs and set them aside as they search for actual truth rather than beliefs and ideas and opinions. the hard thing for many to do (imo) is to distinguish between actual truth and mere ideas/opinions/philosophies/etc, thereby allowing some to fool themselves into believing that an idea/opinion/philosophy/etc is supposedly "(a) truth".

quote:

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Adrian
It has to be said (again) however, that the bible, in and of itself is a fundamentally flawed source of information, for all of the reasons which Beth has so excellently put forward within these forums. There is no point at all going over those reasons yet again; they are already archived and available for all to read at will.

---

personally, i think some of beth's logic is flawed, eventhough much of her reasoning is not neccessarily so (though, who among us IS perfect? [|)]). besides, there are no end to the number of sources which will try to say that the bible is or is not flawed, so if someone really cares they can go out and research it rather than be lazy and just take someone's word for it.

quote:

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Beth
For example--what could the Bible be telling us about "resurrection" besides the claim that only one person did it?

---

actually, the bible is quite clear in saying that other people have been resurrected as well (in fact, one of the books state that just after jesus death *many* long-dead prophets and such came back to life and went out into the world, though whether there is outside proof of this is another question).

quote:

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Beth
What is being communicated to us about the meaning of a "virgin birth" besides that it only happened to one woman?

---

the importance of the virgin birth of jesus is NOT that "it only happened to one woman" (which i don't recall ever being stated in the bible) but that the "Father" was the holy spirit (aka God's spirit, aka God Himself thereby making Jesus God's actual son. though there then becomes the issue that God did exactly what He threw angels out of heaven for (according to the book of Enoch, many angels were cast out of heaven for taking on human wives) [|)]. note: i don't know "the Truth", i merely seek it and have fun making other people seek it by shaking up any beliefs (mine or theirs) that are getting in the way [|)]).

quote:

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MustardSeed
I got the impression that you felt "something alerted you" to this discussion. You had a "feeling" that you should look and did and it was confirmed. You sound like a person being "led" or "guided" someone who is on a mission, with divine presence needeling her.

---

actually, i think she was saying that she just "felt" that someone had said something that related to her. i've gotten that feeling a number of times too. after all we do delve into the metaphysical so why believe such a thing would be divine and not just "super"natural? [|)]

there, now that i'm done replying, back to the original topic [|)]: ... well, ok. the original topic has been done to death. and the only sure thing that is known is that proof of God is a personal sort of proof. there is no proof that can be shown to the masses and get them to *know* (not just "know") that there is a God.

~kakkarot

Mustardseed,

You made your post while I was still writing mine.  

In response to you I will say only this:  It is not me who gets upset when someone else differs from my own position--you and Wisp are the ones that do that.  If a post goes contrary to your own brand of literalist Christianity you come out with "cries of discrimination." You are the ones that take friendly exploration only to the point where it becomes uncomfortable to you--and when it does, you jump out with the "you hate Christians" or "you disagree with my faith" nonsense.  You seem willing enough at times--but then stark fear sets in that you may have to give up more of your set belief system than is comfortable for you--and you fall back into your same old system of claiming persecution.  It is you who try to persecute new ways of belief.

The Divine realm works best when people get uncomfortable.  Being uncomfortable opens a person--not to Satan--but to the Divine Realm as a whole.  I would certainly agree to disagree Mustardseed, but you have yet to allow that to happen.  Whenever someone would ask me a question--that you obviously do not want to hear another answer to--you would get in the way of that person's search my insulting me personally instead of doing your homework to address my answers with good sense.

Kakkarot,

quote:

---

by the people who were actually there with him

---

Sorry--but this is incorrect.  Paul's epistles were written first and Paul never spoke of being there with Jesus.  The Gospels are thought to have been written between 80 c.e. and 120 c.e.  But besides these, there were also a great many other books written that are not commonly known about because the Catholic Church two hundred or so years after the fact, chose not to include them in their "Holy Book."  But all of this has already been presented here, time and time again.  This is "history" not speculation.  This is reality -- not belief or opinion.    

quote:

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i merely seek it and have fun making other people seek it by shaking up any beliefs (mine or theirs) that are getting in the way ).

---

Shaking up beliefs is what I was referring to above to Mustardseed, but care should be taken for this kind of thing can also cause harm if only done "in fun."

Beth

Greetings everyone,

I would just like to add one very brief fundamental point for now. I will of course be keeping an eye on this topic [:)]

Both Beth and I derive our knowledge from numerous, diverse independant sources spanning many thousands of years and assimilate our positions from the collective of those resources, numerous of which are in broad agreement. I, and I am sure Beth, am always willijng to modify my position in the light of new information. The remarkable thing for me is that even after the best part of 40 years of seeking, I have not felt the need to alter my position much on what is an astonishing level of consistency across all areas I have researched and involved myself with over the years. These form the basis of my postings here, which are most certainly not a result of any sort of intransigent position of the sort often displayed by the followers of dogmatic, orthodox religion. I have also read a good deal of the bible, an in particular John which I find particularly interesting along with Genesis. I intend to take a look at Revelations when I have the time.

You, and many christians on the other hand, with respect, base everything around the bible. I, and Beth have both said enough about the bible and its authenticity and reliability as a source of true knowledge of the sort absolutely required by mankind to turn back towards the light in order to make the sort of progress which needs to be made and fast. The fact is, the bible has been a major and lone contributor towards turning much of humanity away from its destiny due, in no small part, that so many people, who do not wish to seek the truth for themselves, have opted, out of abject faith only, to accept the word of a packaged belief system of highly dubious origins.

All I would ask of anyone is that they compare and contast the bible and the christian religion with a multitude of sources of Spiritual information available today, and then make a true judgement.

I am sure the only reason people accept orthodox, dogmatic religion as they do, is because it is so visible and convenient. There is a church in every village, and many in towns, as well as a copy of the bible in every hotel room [:)] Over here, all children are compulsarily taught "religious education" as if it were a fact rather than a subject for discussion. Over the centuries, anyone not conforming to the doctrines of the church were treated terribly, including tortured and killed in the most horrible ways. Is it any wonder the truth remains "esoteric" or "occult", and so many people take the easy route of creed and dogma where they know they will not be ridiculed?

The truth is out there! Seek and ye shall find!

As it is, I firmly believe that mankind is at the beginning of an expansion of consciousness of the group human mind, which will finsih off dogmatic, orthodox religion forever, as people open their minds, Souls and hearts to Spiritual truths, and live their lives accordingly. Then, and only them can humanity achieve the always intended objective, including of Jesus, the "kingdom of heaven on Earth"

With best regards,

Adrian.

Thanks Adrian for what is a gentle and respectful statement.
People are searching, and people are changing. It took a miracle to make some changes in my mind and life on this subject. Sorry for my reference to miracle. [:)]


Dear Beth,
Your tolerance to another view is limited.Do you really expect that someone is going to take and consume what you apparently consider to be your own gospel? The fact you consider your evidence indisputable and above reproach is less than realistic. This is not a challenge, it's common sense. If I thought it was a life and death matter I would check it out. But you know, it's not, so I don't give a flitter.
What in the world gives you the idea that either of us (me or MS)would belittle anyone's personal experience? This is sacred territory in my book, no way, would I do such a thing. If your put off by my experiences, sorry then (for opening up). My point was to show interpretation of these things. Dreams are my interest, just as the bible is your interest. Dreams require reading and understanding, but it's an open field. I'm also trying to learn how obes and lucid dreams relate too. There are spiritual aspects I like to focus on as well. I'm not into a psychological approach on dreams. Any psychological aspect which might make it's appearance is only by chance. It can happen when crossing  common lines that have already been established. That oftentime is when something new can be learned. That is a good thing.
If I ever decide to get out of my lazy intellectual cycle, I can pay my way. I didn't realize I was receiving education through charity.Your offer of crumbs, no thanks. I can pick and choose my own meals too.You have tendencies toward arrogance and and being condescending.There is little you can show or teach me. You have given me a new fresh look at the the Fundamental religion. Suddenly their hospitality appears warmer. You attack and project something that scares the hell of me. May God help anyone under your control or devices. Hate is an ugly word Beth, I don't use it lightly. Hate toward a religion is not new.You are the first person I've seen show teeth. That's okay, this is a great experience for me. I can take it.  

Your intellectual approach is fine. Your attitude and approach needs a sincere attempt at refining.But I'm not into stirring up anything, just reading things here and trying to contribute....on an equal and fair basis. Other-wise, your information is nothing more than material for the rise of a new cult(IMO). Cult leaders are charming btw, [:)] I hope you don't take advantage of people.I bet you can be charming to the people you you want to impress. Peace.

Dear Beth
I find you very very unkind and agressive. Your hateful comments and general attitude tells me that ÿou are in the gall of bitterness¨I think your anger and your hurt have clouded your better judgement.

It is true that I have talked about my work as a missionary, but I did it to explain how modern Missionaries work to someone who thought I was there building Churches. If I bragged I am sorry that was not my intention.

Your comment about me thinking I äm some kind of a prophet¨I find very interesting. You asked me a while ago about Christianity and prophesying, and I told you that I prophesy and for you to understand how that works I sent you some prophesies in confidence that I recieved about Robert and Narrow Path. At the time you wrote back ¨the Lords speaks to you beautifuly¨. To Prophesy is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit along with tounges and healing. Channeling the Christian way so to speak. Is that wrong. These are my beautiful experiences with my God Beth. Aparently you have had some similar experiences but do not want to share them as you think I will put them down with sarcastic remarks.

Beth......are you familiar with the scripture that says, ¨think not to take a splinter out of your brothers eye when there is a beam in your own¨. Is this not exactly what you are doing.

Beth I am sorry to say but you seem to be going a bit wierd, I would suggest you slow down and take a deep breath....inhale .....exhale.. Relax.

Regards Mustardseed

(Beth said)I say this because it finally needs to be said. We have tip-toed around you guys for too long.

Good people have spent many hours on this board offering you and Mustardseed (and whoever else) a great deal of very important information -- FREE OF CHARGE. We are the ones who have invested the time, the effort, and the expense to educate ourselves. We bought the books, took the classes, and studied the languages--for you. We decided to share all that we have learned with you, because we know how very hard it is to get the education that we have. We also know that it is not feasible for everyone to do.

But what do you do instead of be grateful for the free education that you are receiving? You insult and criticize instead of learn of things you do not know. Instead of filling these pages full of empty and petty criticism, you should be taking advantage of what is offered to you here. You should be asking more questions of us instead of bringing the valid questions of others to a screeching halt with your circular arguments and marytr complexes.

(MS) Beth all I can say is ......wow. Did I hear you say you are not a "self appointed elitist" as Wisp put it. HELLO .....Earth calling Beth!!Anyone there??

Dear Adrian
Good post I actually agreed with most of it. The Bible has been used and abused and who said that the only spirituality allowed is in that book. That is what the churches teach. I agree. If that was all and the way we should live our spiritual lives ....lets all go join the Amish. To me that is a dead God. I talked with Robert about similar things. He said that God was changing , well that is one way of explaining it. I would say that he is continually showing us new sides of himself. We might think he is changing but I think he is just so big that he seems to change. Jesus said "greater things than these shall you do" . Revelations is a very interesting book. Thanks for the post. As you see the thread is heating up and I certainly appreciate a levelheaded aproach.

I do have some different opinions about certail points and will open up a different thread to discuss this.
Regards Mustardseed

Dear Mustardseed and Wisp,

I really do not understand how the two of you think.  Somehow it is okay for you to insult me, accuse me of being an elitest and a wanna-be cult leader, among so many other hurtful and cruel things that these threads are full of--and yet--when I speak my mind all of the sudden the two of you become humble and non-deserving of my comments.  This is some strange kind of psycho-manipulation on your part.  

And yes Wisp, you did try to psycho-analyze the few personal posts that I made about one or two of the dreams/experiences that I had.  I was "sharing my experiences" as you insisted that I do--not asking you for your "help" to understand them.  Then Mustardseed came at me after "having a few beers" (oh well! he said...nobody is perfect...) and had a few choice words in response as well. It did hurt my feelings and I said so.  In response to this, Mustardseed said that I should get a thicker skin. So I stopped posting my personal experiences and my personal view of reality.  I chose instead to stick to "FACTS" but even then, since you can't refute my research--you still attacked me personally.  This is, logically speaking, "red herring" tactics in full form, and personally speaking--extremely hurtful and NOT good "Christian behavior."  

It is obvious that the two of you wish I were not here--and I assume it is because my research frightens you--or as you put it Wisp, "scares the hell out of you."  I wish that really were the case--because "HELL" and all those silly notions need to come out of you somehow.  

I really must get back to my work.  I will try in the future not  to respond to a "silent call" to check the AP.  I really do not appreciate your treatment, and further, I do not like what this brings out in me.  If you want to stay a fundamentalist because it is more hospitable that I am--well first--it is not ME vs. Fundamentalism.  It is fundamentalism vs. rational thought.  

Secondly, you have certainly not shown me any hospitality at all--and have done more to interrupt what others have wanted me to discuss, and regularly get in the way of progressive thinking.  Your comments and treatment continually put me on the defensive--and that is counterproductive for me.  I have nothing to defend but my thesis--and my thesis is sound scholorly research--accepted by one of the top university's in this country.  You can either learn from it--or not.  I assume you both choose "not."  That is fine--stay in the darkness. I tried my best...but I guess my best was not good enough. I will work on my presentation...but no matter what I say to the two of you--it will never get through to you.  Not because it is not good solid research--but only because it comes from me.  That is sad...

Don't shoot me--I am just the messenger.
Beth  

good luck with your book beth.

quote:

---

Paul's epistles were written first and Paul never spoke of being there with Jesus. The Gospels are thought to have been written between 80 c.e. and 120 c.e. But besides these, there were also a great many other books written that are not commonly known about because the Catholic Church two hundred or so years after the fact, chose not to include them in their "Holy Book." But all of this has already been presented here, time and time again. This is "history" not speculation. This is reality -- not belief or opinion.

---

(sorry, i must have missed this part last time i read your post)that is strange, i've not heard of the books that are actually in the new testament being dated at more than 75 years (i have only read a handful a sources regarding their dating, but all said approximately the same time so i did not realize there were other "speculations". thank you for letting me know that). i am wrong about paul's books, obviously, so thanks for pointing that out [|)]. and as well i do know of the other books that were not included in what is now known as the "Holy Bible", but i've never really done any research into them and i've never heard any speculation on when they may have been written, so i was not referring to them when i mentioned the dating of the books of the new testament (sorry for not being more aparent in that).

~kakkarot

Beth,
First I want to say that I hesitate responding as it may encourage or reinforce whatever it is that drives your behavior, attitude, whatever.

I discovered that you are way too sensitive to what I do. I do not psycho-analyse for gosh sakes. I at least have learned from this experience with you.

I would confront you with your personnally revised expression of me,but it's all in writing here Beth. Read what I have said, you are misrepresenting me. All I can say is that I must either be more careful how I phrase things, or I must be silent altogether. The silence part would suite you I'm sure.How about this? The best thing to do, I will keep my distance from you. Trust that anything I say from here on, is not about you.

You make things into what you want it  to be. You see things the way want to see. I cannot and will not try to change perceptions you choose for yourself.  
 
Look beyond yourself for a moment, past the mirrors you have placed in front of others.  

I have never had a thought of not wanting you here Beth. I hope you stay. You have something to offer that is good. [:)]

Greetings everyone,

I just would like to say that I am really looking forward to Beth's book!

I am also extremely pleased that she can still find the time to post here from time to time.

In defence of Beth, she is absolutely right to put forward her position in such a robust way. The dogmatic, orthodox church has remained unchallenged for hundreds of years, and historically, those who did challenge the church were tortured and/or executed horribly. And that si notwithstanding the millions of christians who have killed each other because they believe there branch of christianity was better than the next. This has been highly apparent with the catholics versus protestants throughout history. Look at the British monarch over the centuries, they routinely executed everyone who did not conform to the version of christianity supported by the king or queen. All in all, look at where this has got mankind today. The time has come to challenge and expose these orthodox religions for what they really are, as part of the activities currently occuring which will result in the expansion of consciousness of all mankind, irrespective of whether the much prophesied "dimensional shift" happens or not.

I am still firmly of the view that it has been due to the convenience of the church as a "packaged belief system" that is partially responsible for this situation. Why would people seek the truth of their true nature and their own individual evolution and destiny if they believe that the church, which after all id very high profile, will do it for them by proxy, providing they read the bible, go to church, and believe in God (the deity) and Jesus the saviour.

Excellent work Beth, keep it coming!

With best regards,

Adrian.

Ha so much for levelheadedness. [;)] You guys are really something else. I wonder if I am the only one who sees this or are folks seeing it and applauding up in the grand stands while these two hungry lions lay in to us here. [:)]

I realise now Beth that you were never interested in anything I posted, you were not interested when you asked me to post about the endtime. Though you were so kind and encouraging me to, but you only set me up, so you could come in with your wonderful research and ¨blow everybodys mind¨. You were never interested in hearing anything about Prophesies and how they come, nor Wisps take at things. All along you just dispised us and just gathered up amunition, for the final showdown Ha.

Beth my dear all along you have felt way superiour to everyone else on this forum, maybe with the exception of the elect few moderators and fellow intelligensia.

You have finally shown your true face and exposed your innermost feelings. Good now we know where you stand. All along you wanted to be the teacher the giver the great thinker and ......elitist.

Beth this is not about your problem with Christianity, this is about you and your problem with people who do not believe as you do.

For the record I have stated the following doctrines that most fundementalists build their faith on and my own take on them.

Hell

The general view is that Hell is the burning hell all unbelievers will be cast into

My belief is that Hell may be created on earth by your own experiences, your own private Astral creation. Most likely a place you pass through as you learn what you have to.

Sin generally thought to be physical things sex drinking drugs etc

I believe it is missing the mark. Not acting in love. To the pure all things are pure

Eternal damnation
Generally thought to be eternal punishment for not having recieved Jesus

I believe that it is a falacy. The doctrine of reconcilleration , that we learn as we grow. No poor little kid in the jungle will be damned, for not having Jesus. I refuse to serve that kind of God.

The spirit world OBEs and Channeling and guides
Generally thought to all be of the devil and only there to lead people astray.

I believe in OBEs having them too. Channeling I prophecy I have a guide, I believe they are there if people want them .

ETc I could go on Beth but these beliefs set me aside from the fundementalists you so love to put me together with. Aside from the belief that the organised Church and money hungry evangelists seem to most definately be afflicted and some even possessed with various Neg entities.

So It is me, that you have something against and my simple belief that Jesus was a real person, and the son of God and lives to give his love and salvation to those who ask him. Thats the beef. Not the churches and their many failings inquisitions and whatnot.

Regards Mustardseed

Well MustardSeed, looks like the lions done us in. [xx(]

What Now?

We can come back in spirit! [;)]

Mustardseed, as an "audience member", I can't really cheer for anybody, because you people are confusing the sh*t outta me. You and wisp are calling Beth the agressor, but are acting agressively. Beth is calling you two the agressors, but is acting agressively herself. Personally, I'm just gonna adhere to my church (I'm a Salvation Army Soldier) and sit it out until I figure all this out myself, because I can't figure out anything you people are pushing except that the Bible is false, but isnt't (personally, I'm confused on this too. If God could let his "Chosen People" suffer at the hands of the Nazis for so long, letting His Word be corrupted by liars doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch). One thing I do know for certain though is this: Somebody has to be right, but what if it isn't any of us?

Hi Guy
Ha well said, its hard to see whats happening. I dont blame you. I think when those Christians were mauled they probably tried their best to slap the lions but what is a slap against ivory. About your question. It seems supportable by scripture that the jews stopped being the chosen people at the crucifiction of Jesus and the chosen people were from then on the ones who were Spiritual Jews and accepted him by faith.

I find it a falacy to think that God has a people geograpically located. The Jews are actually persecuting lots of Christian Palestinians as well. This is a point of doctrine that I could share more on  if you are interested.

I am pretty sad about the whole thing and feel quite betrayed and decieved by her and I guess I react as a man, if it is stumbeling to you I apologise. Beth and I go way back some 4 months and to get the whole picture you will have to read a lot , which I would not expect. All that to say....Pray my friend and just trust God ...He will lead you.

All the best to you
Regards Mustardsed

no, not at all...gawd and jaysus dont exist. (period)

[^]~ivan

Wyzeguy,
In a nutshell for me, it's about free choice and free speech. Anyone with an idea or belief is their's to own. What that entails is unique and personal to each and everyone. Churches may or may not represent the personal view exactly of any person, but they exist for a purpose(imo).
The problem is when one person or a group's belief takes steps to make another one's personal or church beliefs nil and void.  In this case it's being done by calling other beliefs wrong by proof through another enity's research. The only choice given in this matter, is believe us (enity), or else find out through your own research(you are nil/void otherwise in your beliefs). Nevermind what I or others have already have come to know for him/herself, because you are automatically wrong by way of "research". Research, being this intellectual and rational enity.

Freedom of choice is at stake here.

My belief is ......well,...whatever I believe (this is what makes me, ME). I don't want anyone trampling on it, and I wouldn't want someone else being taken advantage in the same manner. Freedom of speech on the matter is in question by what I see happening to MustardSeed. He understands his choices, and who he IS, but is not being allowed to express IT. I've been watching this for some time. Now, because I dared to exercise my free speech about it, I'm in the same boat with MustardSeed.

Yep Wisp that seem to be the sum of it. Welcome in the boat. Sailing is a lot of fun.

"there is nothisg quite so satisfying as messing around in boats"
The water rat (from Wind in the Willows)

Greetings Mustardseed and Wisp,

Discussions are a two way process whereby groups of people, often with opposing views, present their case in the most compelling possible manner. Those with the strongest case and with the evidence to support it are much more likely to prevail.

What we are seeing here is Beth presenting a huge amount of information from numerous independant sources, and quoting those sources, while yourselves, for the most part, rather than countering the positions of Beth, I and others, with discusssions based upon your own sources of information, are taking it all personally as an afront to your personal beliefs.

The problem appears to be; Beth has literally hundreds of sources of information to support her case, but yet, the only source of information to support the bible upon which orthodox christianity is built, is the bible itself.

Might I suggest that rather than being angry and upset about these discussions, you present your own independant sources of information in support of your own positions vis a vis the bible, God, Jesus, and the authenticity of christianity generally.

With best regards,

Adrian.

(Adrian)The problem appears to be; Beth has literally hundreds of sources of information to support her case, but yet, the only source of information to support the bible upon which orthodox christianity is built, is the bible itself.

Might I suggest that rather than being angry and upset about these discussions, you present your own independant sources of information in support of your own positions vis a vis the bible, God, Jesus, and the authenticity of christianity generally.

(MS) Yes Adrian you might suggest that, however I do not have to, do I. I have a faith a belief that does not need the facts you are looking for. I am not in a trial court, where I will be declaired guilty of ignorance or any such ridiclous thing if I fail to present evidence for my case , well enough to convince you or Beth or anyone else. Or am I ?

I will restate my point!!. The documents the Bible is translated after are very old, they are stories written about this Jesus guy, and the Bible in general. They date differently and are found in different places. Some are in the dead sea scrolls from what I understand. They indicate to me that the Jesus I know could have been real. The counsel of nicea canned some stories or accounts and approved others, for reasons I am not sure (I was not there). I believe the Spirit of God found its way into thise pages anyway!!!. Josephus a contemporary to Paul even wrote secular books and told of Jesus. Do a search on that. I included a list a while back but you probably allready know it.

I do not need to know by worldly proof that what I believe is the truth to me. I believe it and never claimed to have more than that!!. Anyone listening!! There has been some archaelogic findings to tell that the places in the Bible were there but by enlarge I do not have a whole lot. I KNOW THIS. That makes Jesus someone you have to believe in by faith not proof, but this is not inconsistant with scripture as it seems that Gods loves a mystery. Even Beth says so. He has hidden some of those things for the wise and revealed them to babes. (Not babes babes but babies[;)])

What I feel is wrong is that I cannot have this Faith and this belief without being badgered at every turn by folks who call me all kinds of things and ridicule me as unintelligent etc etc. for believing a falsehood.

Leave me alone.

Just say ...well I dont believe this. I have not used the astral pulse a soapbox to gather souls and converts as Beth an others have said. You know this Adrian. All I have done is stand up for my right to have a faith.

I find it ludicrous that you and her and others consistantly demand proof for Christianity while at the same time embrace a myriad of beliefs , like Zetas OBE  pole shifts etc. with no question, go figure!!. I get taunted for thinking "i am some kind of Prophet" becourse I prophesy and others post at great lengths about Prophesy and channeling and are encouraged and applauded or at least left alone.  

So there it is again, why do you all have to prove me wrong???. I never said anything nor claimed or badgered you for your beliefs did I Adrian? Why are you not content to agree to disagree, and why do you see the need to make me and now Wisp the wipping boy(s) for the king.

Regards Mustardseed

PS and kindly stop calling me a fundementalist and group me with various Ministers and tele evangelists and whatnot. I have explained why this is incorrect. I will not be at the recieving end for all the bitterness that flows toward Christianity (falsly so called), I will not take the blame for the inquisition, nor will I do penance for the (UN)Holy wars.

Adrian,
Anger is not at play here for me. I am expressing freely an appropiate response to circumstances which can occur in life. Expression and anger are not the same thing.

I'm sure you are quite aware of the true dynamics of the emotion anger.  Anger and fear are tightly coiled. My belief system is not in any internal fear or danger. [:)] I am secure.

Matter of FACT, this encounter only reinforces the beliefs I have already come to know as truth.

I'm in agreement with MustardSeed and also must decline the invitation or trial to be guilty of ignorance.

Here is the top portion of MY list of priorities or hierarchy for information:

1. God

2. Son

3. Holy Spirit

4. Me *

5. Any person or thing other than the above.

* I find that most people will respond openly and honestly if I make that person #4 and me #5 during my encounter with him or her. That way I get another perspective other than my own.

Adrian said,

quote:

---

Might I suggest that rather than being angry and upset about these discussions, you present your own independant sources of information in support of your own positions vis a vis the bible, God, Jesus, and the authenticity of christianity generally.

---

Having addressed my views on your anger issue, the rest I feel I've answered here, and in my previous post.

When the opportunity presents itself, and the time is right, I will be glad to add anything significant. Until then, I will be delighted to check out Beth's intriguing studies.

This is the way things often end here in the Pulse. Someone like Beth will come in and say a bunch of outrageous stuf, Adrian as well and as people argue against this or defend themselves, there is suddenly no answer and it fizzeles out.

All that is remembered is the "front page" the grand claims and pompous accusations and allegations. There is no retraction as there are no rules. I find Beths statement outrageous Adrian. It is a singeled out agression towards Wisp and myself and others who may believe as do we, indicating all sorts of negative things, and you stand by her in this. It is a reversed "inquisition style indoctrination" IMO. Believe as we do or else?. If I had used those kind of words that attitude etc I would possibly have been warned. If this is not elitist tell me what it is. You are both making US the focus of all your frustration against organized Christianity and it seems you do not care about the collateral damage. Why dont you read the message Beth wrote and try to discern its "spirit". Are we the enemy Adrian?

Why

No damage done at my end MS, but I do appreciate your concern. It kind of strikes me as just reactionary now. I'm sure willing to let it go. [:)]

No news is good news to me. [:)]

Expected

Everyone,

My last post in this thread was most definately reactionary.  And I apologize.  But why all of this has to happen at all I really do not know.  

Mustardseed--if the research that I have been presenting here for almost 3 months now, is in your opinion so "outrageous" then why have you continued to read it, and continued to post in the threads where you know I am going to be saying things that you do not want to hear?  Because when you do, and I refute your claims or present even more material that you do not like, then all of the sudden I am somehow infringing on your right to believe as you choose.  This is absurd.  

No one is forcing you read my research or respond to it.  If we were, now THAT would most definately be infringing on your rights--but you are reading the threads where my research is posted and you are posting to these threads of your own free will Mustardseed.  You come into a thread and then argue about it instead of try to learn some new things that you have not had the opportunity to learn yet.  That is why I was so aggravated in my last post.

If, on the other hand, you don't want to learn anything new, then just don't read the threads where I have made posts, or go to a forum where people post more along the lines of your own thinking.  

But stop accusing me, Adrian and the other members of this board of somehow mistreating you or not giving you a voice.  And Wisp, stopping accusing us as well.  Mustardseed, we hear your voice loud and clear--we just simply disagree.

Beth  

Beth,
Sorry to come off sounding accusing. Actually I was trying to "critique".In other words,to be the response of the skeptic, the sounding out of your ideas against my standard. My standard is similar (though not exact) to others. If I was reading this solo, no verbalization is necessary. I have joined the discussion, therefore I "voice". We are not dealing with scientifically provable material, but ideas and precepts. A literist has to wade through your thoughts and material differently than those who are are on your side of the fence. Instead of keeping to your mindset that the literist is what you have perceived (that which you repeat over and over again), at least be open minded that we may be right in part. This may give you window or view you haven't thought about before. I have dream work ideas about the bible. Your information may be valuble for building on that for me. It's kind of hard to think dream material when part of the picture is being cut out. I'm trying to listen. I'm also trying to listen to MustardSeed. Let him bloom. He is a gentle person having to be in armour here.

It takes a while for one person to know another. I wasn't aware of your sensitive nature until all this blew up. Now that I know this, I will be more tactful. Plus, as I gather more of your purpose, I will stay clear of your stream.

Beth:

quote:

---

Mustardseed, we hear your voice loud and clear--we just simply disagree.

---

IMO: I see more similarities than differences.

Hi Beth
First I do not find your research to be outrageous at al. I find it very interesting and though I might not draw the conclusions you do I certainly accept your right to your opinion.

What I did find outrageous was this

(BETH)
We have tip-toed around you guys for too long.

Good people have spent many hours on this board offering you and Mustardseed (and whoever else) a great deal of very important information -- FREE OF CHARGE. We are the ones who have invested the time, the effort, and the expense to educate ourselves. We bought the books, took the classes, and studied the languages--for you. We decided to share all that we have learned with you, because we know how very hard it is to get the education that we have. We also know that it is not feasible for everyone to do.

But what do you do instead of be grateful for the free education that you are receiving? You insult and criticize instead of learn of things you do not know. Instead of filling these pages full of empty and petty criticism, you should be taking advantage of what is offered to you here. You should be asking more questions of us instead of bringing the valid questions of others to a screeching halt with your circular arguments and marytr complexes. If you or Mustardseed want to be my teacher--then do your homework, get the credentials and make some intellectual sense for a change.
(end qoute)

I find it wrong that you put yourself up as the teacher , call us petty unintelligent, and demand that we have and show you credentials (I assume from some Univercity) before we are allowed to discuss your research. Contrary to your classroom we are not depending on you to teach us, and I find the comments were as Wisp said very elitist. Maybe I could find a better word but that word was allready used. Then to top it off Adrian applauds your "robust" way of dealing with this dissention or whatever we call it, in my opinion not fair, and not being a good moderator.

I never sought for teachers on this board and resent being put in your class. Thats all. Please try to understand that it is not your research or Adrians nor your beliefs but the rather autocratic way these things are being presented. As I said I am not a fundementalist and will not do penance and accept the blame for all the mistakes Christians have made down the ages.

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,
I think we are an incidental presence (possibly a hinderous...oops) of what "they" are trying to do. It's not a personal attack MS. They have received the message. Your specifics you are now talking about are essentially voided by way of Beth's quote.

quote:

---

My last post in this thread was most definately reactionary. And I apologize.

---

It was just a "reactionary" statement,and of no consequence. If I may be so bold as to suggest, get an eraser and wipe it from your blackboard. It never happened (try it, it works [:)]).
Imo, what Adrian thinks of us is neither here or there. I'm sure he is only encouraging and pushing Beth forward in a good way. I'm just a little slow catching on to some things. I'm just wanting to clue you into the same thing.It doesn't mean we have to agree about it, just allow them some freedom too.

BTW- Great OBE you have written about in another forum!

Wisp,

You wrote:  

quote:

---

We are not dealing with scientifically provable material, but ideas and precepts.

---

In order to be scientifically accurate, it must be provable again and again and again, regardless of who does the experiment.  As far as what the bible says after translation it actually is scientifically provable.  It is language, and everytime you translate a particular name--you get the same result--time and time again.  

My name is Beth--in Hebrew this means "house."  The word "El" means God.  The proper name "Bethel" is a combination word that means "House of God."  "Zachar" means "remember."  "Zachariah" means "remember God" or "God remembers."  "Halak" means "go to."

If I wanted to say "remember God and go to the house of God" I would write "Zachariah, Halak, Bethel."  In the form of proper names--"Zachariah, Halak, and Bethel" could be characters in a story that I am telling. I could have them on the surface level doing whatever I wanted them to do, e.g., go shopping at the mall.  But that would not imply that the "mall" is the house of God, but rather that there is a God TO remember, and that there is a House of God to go to.  Where that House of God actually is, the verse may not say, but with this particular type of interpretation, you only interpret the proper names--not the other words in the verse.  

All of the people involved in the biblical stories have names that are built from the Hebrew vocabulary in the same way.  When these names are translated they reveal very definate meanings.  When a group of names are used in a particular order, e.g. a genealogy for example, the translation reveals a particlar new level of verse.  When the same names are joined with other names, and listed in a different order, the overall translation says something different. But the words or "key motifs" are the same nonetheless.  How do I know this?  I have found where many ancient writers including St. Augustine did this very thing.  I have also done it myself many times using the many "lists" that are scattered throughout the Bible.  The result is truly amazing Wisp--these writers used pure literary genius to write these scriptures.

This was language based mysticism, ancient style, and they were using language to its utmost capacity.  When they wrote the bible--they were doing so with this method as a primary tool.  

I think there are 2 major things going on here at the AP:

1--What you perceive me to be doing
and
2--What I am actually doing.

I am "not" speaking to you from "my religion."  I am "not" making any personal claims about the nature of the Godhead.  I am "not" trying to hurt anyone here.  

I am not writing a "new scripture" or the "gospel of Beth" as I think you or someone accused me of, nor am I making claim to having some prophetic understanding of what the bible "really says" without any backup proof.  The proof is in the language that the bible was written in.  I just happen to know Hebrew and know my way around a Hebrew lexicon.  No, wait, I don't just "happen" to.  I have studied very hard for a number of years to learn all that I have--and Hebrew is NOT an easy language to learn.  So, I am just sharing here what the scripture "really says" based upon my knowledge of the language and my knowledge of the people who were writing in antiquity.

What I AM doing is trying my best to begin to clean up a language nightmare that was not created my me, nor has it ever been sanctioned by me.  The religions involved are the ones that allowed for the stories to be thought true Wisp--not me.  I have not done anything underhanded, or am I trying to "read something in" that isn't there. The findings of my research is NOT my opinion--it is just the way that it is.

I can only assume that this information needs to come out right now, or else I would not possess it.  I have to assume it is time...

On Mustardseed being a gentle soul:  Sometimes he does seems so, BUT, there have been a great many times where he has come at me personally, making fun of me, calling me names -- including the insinuation that I am the anti-christ vis-a-vis my research. He has tried to argue scripture with me in English, when I know what the original Hebrew and Greek says, and he has tried to provide his own proof that my proof just supercedes.  I know it is frustrating for him, and deeply hurtful, but I cannot tell him it is correct or okay to accept the literal interpretation of scripture as TRUTH, when I know that it is not.  That would not be responsible on my part, nor very nice of me if I did.  

It might seem the "nice thing to do" but let's say one of your friends knew something about your husband or boyfriend that you "really should know"--wouldn't you want that friend to tell you?  Or--would you rather just continue to live in ignorance with him regardless of the truth of his actions? And think about how your friend would feel everytime she was around your husband--knowing what she knew--and yet all the while you prefer to "not know the truth."

As I said above, Mustardseed can continue (and you as well) to believe whatever you are comfortable with.  But that does not change the fact that the biblical scripture in the original languages, written by it original authors, says something very different.

Beth

Mustardseed,

You wrote:  

quote:

---

I never sought for teachers on this board.

---

 That's too bad--because I am always looking at other people as my teachers.  I am, at all times, a student.  I hold the view that we are all both teachers and students.  If I hear from someone something that I did not know before, then that person has been my teacher.  If I then share with that someone something that they didn't know before, then I have, in turn, been their teacher.  

You then wrote:

quote:

---

and resent being put in your class. Thats all

---

Then, like I said, you should not have entered into any thread where I had posted my research.  You did this, everytime, of your own free will.  No one ever made you open the threads, so your resentment should not be aimed at me, or Adrian, or Robert, but rather at yourself because you "kept coming back for more."

You wrote:

quote:

---

I find it wrong that you put yourself up as the teacher, call us petty unintelligent, and demand that we have and show you credentials (I assume from some Univercity) before we are allowed to discuss your research.

---

I have never demanded that you have a degree to discuss my research--quite the contrary. I have encouraged you to ask questions--you just haven't liked the answers that I gave you. If by my taking the time and expense of getting my degrees somehow makes you feel "unintelligent" that is of your own making. For I have tried to save you the time and expense of doing so yourself by sharing with you what I have learned. I have tried to encourage everyone here that they can all understand what I am sharing.  And everyone can--unless they are so stubborn that they won't even try.  

Beth

Beth:
I will only make one other point on this post of yours and that is--most intelligent people around the globe recognize that "religious stories" are just that--religious "stories"--important stories that tell of religious things
(end qoute)

Dear Beth
I think we should end it here and just let it sit for a while. It seems obvious to me that you have quite a high opinion about yourself and your research. (however right or interesting it might be). You are no longer asking questions but appear to have found the answer. You are a teacher, or would like to be thought of as one. I actually think you must be a teacher in real life on some faculty, maybe even student counsellor or something. You portray that attitude of "faculty"!. That would match my profile. Maybe this is why you behave this way.

However your answer is not obvious to me. You will ofcourse say that this is becourse I have not got the same knowledge of languages you are more educated and can dive deeper so to speak.

You have an answer to everything. You are never in doubt. You a ...right and unquestionable, so we are not on the same page at all.

So lets leave it there Beth

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,

You are correct, I did say that.  If that is what you are talking about, then it must have resonated with you, but that one was not just directed at you personally.

What I did say to you personally, is that you were intellectually lazy--and that is because you won't even try to learn new things, or try to understand the whole picture of that which surrounds the early centuries of Christianity--even though I was not the only one trying their level best to help to understand this.  So, I guess all the other times that I encouraged you, sharing with you A LOT of things regarding the language, philosophy and history of the ancient world is nullified by one of my blanket statements?  

Yes, I have gotten aggravated by your stubborness--but that is because I recognize that you are intelligent--and you just refuse to tap into it and use it.

There have been very good spirited people, very well read people, who yes, are more educated then you--that have made posts about this.  But you have not wanted to listen to any of us, placing as a barrier between us the fact that we ARE educated.  That is hardly a good reason to do so.  Yes, I have posted that I have received some degrees, but that is not to wave them in your face, but rather to show that I have been credited with knowing my material.

quote:

---

I find Beths statement outrageous Adrian. It is a singeled out agression towards Wisp and myself and others who may believe as do we, indicating all sorts of negative things, and you stand by her in this. It is a reversed "inquisition style indoctrination" IMO.

---

We have not been ganging up on you with an "inquisition style indoctrination"--reverse or otherwise--that has already been done, centuries ago, by the Christian religion.  What has been going on here is a party with cake and ice cream compared to the horrific, barbaric and unimaginable in our world today, acts of the Christian Inquisition.

You have inherited the results of this inquistion--believe or be killed--and a great many people were killed so that Christianity could flourish for the centuries that it has. But you need not worry about your life being taken from you, or the lives of your loved ones for believing as you do.  We may present a different story, but you remain alive and sleep in your own bed every night regardless.

What I do see happening, is a lot of war and terrorism based upon a western religious belief in something that was written over 2,000 years ago, that was written -- not has historical fact -- but as a means of using language to discuss philosophical and metaphysical insights.  It was Greek philosophy--about God--but not "the word" from God.

So what IS "ganging up on Christiainity" in general, is the rapidly increasing knowledge of the ancient period--made available to the many educated people in this world, and by this, the divine realm is apparently seeking to clear up all this mess.  It is spiritual evolution that is "pressing in on you" Mustardseed--not the members of this forum, and not me personally.

Beth

As I said before Beth , kindly stop calling me a fundementalist and group me with various Ministers and tele evangelists and whatnot. I have explained why this is incorrect. I will not be at the recieving end for all the bitterness that flows toward Christianity (falsly so called), I will not take the blame for the inquisition, nor will I do penance for the (UN)Holy wars.

If you believe that the New Age is approaching and that the poleshift is around the corner, well maybe so....lets not disagree on the lets just wait and see. !!

In the meantime Beth let me make up my own mind without your "bullying". Thats what it is really (to me). I said I am thinking it all over comparing notes, reading books, posting questions and praying about it all, and please stop calling me lethargic and stuf like that. That is not fair. You do not know what I study and how I spend my time do you? That is the kind of thing that I find "bullying". I just turned 49 Beth, I am not a fly by night kid anymore. I will take the time I need to make up my own mind, and I get immensly irritated with folks who tell me what I should believe and what I should not believe. Dont you?

So far my beliefs have proven themselves correct through a long life. I would have to have some very strong indication that I should change any of what I believe before I do so. As a saying goes

If it ain't broken don't fix it.

My life makes sense I have a God who hears my prayers. I have seen mighty manifestations in his name. I believe in Him. I have no compelling reason, so far to renounce this faith. I stand by it.

Let me be honest and say that my faith does not come from the internet boards and posts by people I do not even know. As I do not know the source I need to be much more careful to verify what is said. Wouldn't you say that is a prudent approach. Or do you think I should just accept things you and others say becourse ...you say them and lots of people agree with you. I realise I am a minority here but that sounds foolish to me.

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,

I am sorry that my posts seem "bullying" to you.  No, I do not like it at all when someone does that to me.  -- And I have had my share of that for most of my life.  

Where we differ, is that I had some sort of "deep knowing" when I was just a child, that something about the bible stories that I too was taught to be literal, just didn't make sense.  I was only 11-13 years old.  

This has haunted me all of my life, for I do not live in the West as your profile would have me, but rather, "right smack dab in the buckle of the Bible belt."  I have lived my entire life in that same kind of "minority" that you speak of.  I have never been able, in all honesty, to call myself a Christian, and yet had to live my life surrounded by those that do.  With the exception of my mother, my entire family is Christian, from Methodists to Fundamentalists to Catholics.  Mustardseed, I have been a lone sheep within my own family all of my life.

So, in essence, I have not had very many people that I could discuss my "deep knowing" with, and those precious few are my dearest friends.  I have had to reach out to other parts of the country and to other parts of the world to find "like minds" in order to fully investigate and understand why I have always felt the way that I have.  And--I had to go to college and study Christianity in-depth, for myself--to try and figure out this most collosal quandry of my life. But I had to wait until I was 35 years old to do so.  I am now 44.

So Mustardseed, I understand better than you think what it is like to be in the "minority" but I will say this--I wanted to know things that differed from what I had been taught--I needed to know--I felt that my life depended upon it.  I had to do all that I have done to feel comfortable in my own skin, in my own life, as a "minority."

This last post of yours sounds much "nicer" and much more conciliatory.  That does not mean that you have agreed with me either--that means that you are no longer being cruel toward me, and so as you see, I am responding in a like manner.

We have both found ourselves in a very heated debate/discussion.  These things are very personal and very dear to us--and so I guess it is natural that we "come out" with our gloves on when it all gets too close to our comfort zone.  But, you and I both know that this is not loving, spiritual behavior, and we both also know that this is what we should all strive to do at all times.  

So, for all the less than nice things that I have said to you, I extend my heartfelt apology.  It would be nice to now hear the same coming from you, for you have most definately "bested me" with your ability to post hurtful comments.  

Peace,
Beth  

Yes I am quite talented at putting in the knife and finding the weak spot. I do try not to but sadly find myself doing this often with the very people I love as well. My zodiac sign given me some comfort that this is "normal" for folks like me but I try my best to overcome this very negative emotion in me.

I am sorry too , and apologize  for what I have inflicted of hurt in your life. Gloves are off. Lets just talk.I will try my very best to keep the "anticrist" in me under control, and in subjection.

Peace!

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,

[:D][:D][:D]This makes me VERY happy![:D][:D][:D]

Peace!
Beth

Glad to see you smiling Beth. You have some nice input here, thank you. Sorry if you felt I may have skimmed over your rough two years of coming to terms with the new information you have received. I do feel for you. I haven't had to experience dissappointing discoveries about the bible. As mentioned before, my contact with God has always been through prayer, not through any info obtained from the bible. Whatever you say doesn't plunge a knife in my heart, or cause any other reaction. How I relate to the bible hasn't changed for me. Earlier in our conversation, we've talked about creating one's own reality. Though you probably have gone through a realization trauma (if that's worded right), I'm sure you have paved your way in preparedness. I too have had to go through transition in my spiritual life (not on this subject, nor at this time). So I do know some of what you have had to go through. I appreciate what you say about not holding back on those things you have come to know as proof of the truth. To compromise is usually a wrong move, I wouldn't either. I follow what your saying. I enjoy reading what you have found, thanks.

HELP I DONT KNOW WHAT TO THINK, WHERES THE PROOF? WHAT ARE YOUR OPINIONS? HELP ME PLEASE[?]