I believe that American policy and their friendship with Israel have more to do with any sort of "Holy War", than America being a Christian country.
Religion is a useful tool to rally the masses into a frenzy in order to achieve a goal. The Crusades are an example of that.
So you think that the "God" that is supposed to be behind it is just an illusion or made up phenomenon?
God is not an illusion, nor a mere phenomenon.
What I am saying is this:
Radical Islam is very unforgiving when it comes to democracy, therefore its leaders would want to do everything possible to stop it's spread. By rallying the people(a people who love their God immensely) to defend their faith(and God), fundamental muslim states are able to have people who hate America and everything it stands for, all because it had been told for years that they(America) are out to prevent Islam from spreading and instead keen on instituting Christian democracy.
I am a Catholic and as such, it is very hard to overlook or rationalize the church's crimes against it's own followers. I have learned that the word of God can be used to do two things:
1)Accomplish the goal of God
or
2) Accomplish the goal of man
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has 'closed', the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. AND I AM CAESAR." --Julius Caesar
The same spirit(perhaps more so) can be felt with religion.
When all of the recent terrorist business ramped up and people here were starting to get quite anti-muslim, the head of the islamic church here in Melbourne came forward and had something quite interesting to say. It seems that the term "Jihad" is not at all scriptural in accordance with the Qaran. It is a term of human origin, and does not come from God.
To the true islamic faith, God as the Qaran describe him detests killing as much as God as described in the Bible. The islamic leaders in no way condone these extremist actions. It is NOT part of the islamic way of life which in its essence should serve to promote peace and tolerance just as the christian faith is supposed to.
Spare a moment though to think about the Crusades of the middle ages, and how many innocent people were slaughtered by the hand of devout christian knights under the supposed direction of God.
If anyone at all kills in the name of God, no matter whether it is the God of the christians or the God of the muslims, it is only ever man's pathetic claim that it is the "will of God" that justifies their actions. Jihads, crusades, whatever term you would use for a Holy War, is the will of men, NOT the will of God.
Having spoken to a muslim collegue at a place that I used to work, people of the true islamic faith dont hate anyone. They love all of mankind as is the will of God. If you take the time to speak to a muslim who is true to the islamic ways you will find there to be very little difference between the core of their beliefs and the core of the christian beliefs.
Also remember that even these extremists (with the exception of the truly psychotic ones) don't hate America, they hate the American government. When you live outside of the USA, its not that difficult to see why they feel this way. You've a leader who's a few neurons shy of being a megolomaniac!
Kind regards,
James.
quote:
am a Catholic and as such, it is very hard to overlook or rationalize the church's crimes against it's own followers. I have learned that the word of God can be used to do two things:
1)Accomplish the goal of God
or
2) Accomplish the goal of man
I see your point here but I must disagree. I think that all things that are done are done to better accoplish God's goal. Even if it may seem to be the will of man it is man being decieved into thinking he has any power over God's Will whatsoever.
Prophecy is prophecy and what will come to pass will come to pass.
Since you believe that, Im interested in what you think of predestanation. This is not a ploy, Im just interested in other Christians thoughts on the subject.
bah, christians did the crusades...a sort of jihad !
I think it's not a good thing to symplify all, this "terrorist war" is more complicate than it seems. If you start thinking "ht good against the evil" and "God is on our side" like seems to think your Bush, it's going to be biggest international demonstration of human stupidity ever made in our history [B)]
Islam is not the enemy; Christianity is not the enemy; religion is not the enemy; a race of people is not the enemy. IGNORACE IS THE ENEMY!
To assume understanding based on mere sentiments is one's own folly. The conversation might as well switch to favorite foods and/or favorite movies, etc...
Narrow Path's question is valid. The answer can only be gotten by understanding where mankind is on its evolutionary path. This matter cannot be trivialized and must appear before the intellect and the spiritual organs.
Applying a materialistic view of history and adding one's sentiments will simply produce ignorance. It's like studying the world of effects with no knowledege of the world of causes.
Once one comes to the correct understanding of what human evolution is all about (i.e. where we started; where we are; where we are headed), everything makes perfect sense- everything!
quote:
Originally posted by James S
If anyone at all kills in the name of God, no matter whether it is the God of the christians or the God of the muslims, it is only ever man's pathetic claim that it is the "will of God" that justifies their actions. Jihads, crusades, whatever term you would use for a Holy War, is the will of men, NOT the will of God.
This has ALWAYS been the TRUTH. There is no religion greater than truth.
[edited by moderator]
quote:
Since you believe that, Im interested in what you think of predestanation. This is not a ploy, Im just interested in other Christians thoughts on the subject.
This is a hard question. Can predestination and free will actually both be true?
I believe so.
I think that God knows exactly what is going to happen but it is still our choice that makes it so. It is predestined in that the knowledge of our actions is in God's mind but that does not mean we dont CHOOSE it to happen as it partains to our own Salvation.
Put Christ and His Will above your own and a lot of the veil or ignorance is lifted.
quote:
Originally posted by Narrow Path
I see your point here but I must disagree. I think that all things that are done are done to better accoplish God's goal. Even if it may seem to be the will of man it is man being decieved into thinking he has any power over God's Will whatsoever.
I agree that God uses all things to ultimately bring about the greatest possible good. I also believe however that God allows us the freedom to choose from an infinite number of paths in attaining that. You can choose to fear and hate, and thereby cause suffering for yourself and others until you have suffered enough to finally figure out that only giving love unconditionally will ever truly fulfill you. Or you can choose to figure that out with less pain by just deciding and taking loving action in each possible moment whenever you are finally ready. God has eternity to wait for you to finally figure it out.
As others have said, "Holy war" is an oxymoron (contradiction in terms) coined by man to justify and incite hatred to further the agendas of the selfish and/or deluded people calling for such a war. God will find a way to constructively use the suffering created by such an atrocity just like he would find a way to give meaning to a child being brutally raped and murdered. Understand however that it was
man's choice to take these paths of suffering - not God's. It was not necessary except as much as the people involved chose to make it necessary. God always offers us a "better" way, but it's our choice which way we choose to go.
Note that nobody can
force you to do anything. They can try to coerce you in many ways, but it is always still your choice. Everybody around you might decide to go to war, but you can refuse to fight and choose instead to find some way of helping people. Your life situation might be touched or even surrounded by war, you might suffer some of the pain inflicted by that war, but you only become "part of it" if you choose to...
--Soulfire
This is a hard question. Can predestination and free will actually both be true?
I believe so.
I think that God knows exactly what is going to happen but it is still our choice that makes it so. It is predestined in that the knowledge of our actions is in God's mind but that does not mean we dont CHOOSE it to happen as it partains to our own Salvation.
Wow, that's the most succinct way of putting it that I've ever heard. I'm impressed. I agree with you too.
quote:
Originally posted by Narrow Path
Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.
It is called a Holy War. Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much? If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?
Narrow Path,
I am a Muslim and would like to say that when I hear these people call for a Holy War, I just laugh, and so does my father. A Jihad can not be called for unless Islam it self is threatened. Since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world (and yes including the USA, the conversion rates of American's to Islam doubled after sept 11) I can not see how it is in any way threatened.
Quote from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm
"Estimates of the total number of Muslims range from 0.7 to 1.2 billion worldwide and 1.1 to 7 million in the U.S. About 21% of all people on earth follow Islam. The religion is currently in a period of rapid growth.
Christianity is currently the largest religion in the world. It is followed by about 33% of all people -- a percentage that has remained stable for decades. If current trends continue, Islam will become the most popular world religion sometime in the mid-21st century."
Also, your statement, "Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much?" offends me very much. I am an American and I love this country!
You sure took one hell of a leap of faith in assuming that Muslims want war against America because it is a Christian country. Such thoughts are bad for your karma....
Mohamed--
Not to split hairs here, but the last figures I saw had Buddhism as the top ranking religion in the world (per the numbers) with Islam coming in second, followed by Christianity (at 21%.)
But this was a few years ago, so I will check out that site that you reference! Thanks![:)]
quote:
Wow, that's the most succinct way of putting it that I've ever heard. I'm impressed. I agree with you too.
Thank you,
If it is not too much trouble.....
What denomination are you.
I enjoy wour posts and replies.[:D]
Stay strong in the faith.
quote:
You sure took one hell of a leap of faith in assuming that Muslims want war against America because it is a Christian country. Such thoughts are bad for your karma....
Muslim's dont prescribed to the doctrine of Karma.
Fundamentalist Islam believers consider us infidels and have declared Holy War on us. It is very cut and dry.
quote:
Originally posted by Narrow Path
Fundamentalist Islam believers consider us infidels and have declared Holy War on us. It is very cut and dry.
The "mistake" here is believing that what you call "Fundamental Islam" has anything in common with true Islam.
Consider some murdering psychopath who thinks he is killing prostitutes and "sinners" because it is "God's will". These types of people commonly quote the Bible to "justify" their actions. Most of them even call and think of theselves as "True Chrstians". What you are doing and saying is just like proclaiming that the above types of misguided people accurately reflect true Christianity.
At least the way you
talk gives the strong impression that this is what you believe, but maybe I am misunderstanding you.
--Soulfire
Three main points here.
1) Some characters here seem to have a problem understanding the difference between muslims and islmac fundamentalists. The fundamentalists are the fanatical minority. This is not purely an islamic trait. Those from the United States should be well aware of the christian fundamentalist streak, esp the bible belt area.
However, this is not representative of modern christianity as a whole, just as islamic fundamentalism is not characteristic of muslims as a whole. Everyone, especially in the media, should learn to UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.
2) People here band about the term 'holy war', 'crusade' and 'Jihad' as if they they are all identical terms. They are not.
'Jihad' actually transaltes as 'struggle' and is only called when islam is threatened. Also Jihad can only be called upon to reclaim territory that belonged to muslims but has been taken by outsiders.
This is quite different from the concept of 'crusade', a purely christian concept, which is defined as campagn to conquer NEW territory on behalf of god esp the Holy Land.
This type of holy war was formulated by the Pope in the early medieval period. As you can see, during the crusader period, jihad was invoked to help reclaim land taken by the crusaders.
3)Finally, while not a Muslim myself, I have great respect for mainstream Islam. It is in fact a far more tolerant religion than Christianity. The prophet states that those of other faiths can continue worship in muslim lands. Therefor, In Muslim countries many christian churches survive intact. If you visit Greece, which was under Turkish occupation for many years you can see many fine byzantine churches which the muslims left intact, although some they converted to mosques of course.
This creed of acceptance of other religions is a central part of mainstream islam but is quite at odds with even mainstream christianity which is undergoing somewhat of a crisis at present as intolerance is such an inbuilt characteristic of the religion.
Regards,
Douglas
Thank you Soulfire and Gandalf, I could not have put it any better.
Narrow Path, If Fundamentalist Islam believers consider us infidels and have declared a Holy War on us, does that mean they are attacking Christianity? Since I am an American, I am as much of an enemy to them as you are. Does this mean it is a war against Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and all other religions that are found in the USA? I think not! Maybe, just maybe, it could be a war against the USA (For those who don't understand, I am being sarcastic, it is against the USA not against any religion).
Beth,
I posted this same information on a different religious debate forum and got the same answer as you gave me. Perhaps that site is out dated or maybe even biased?
Mohamed,
Anytime "numbers" are offered by an organization, they will most often be offered with bias, and in this case I couldn't help but notice that the site "About" that you referenced, had "pop-ups for Christ." But their statement that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is probably the truest part.
Beth_
The religious tolerance site is in fact an excellent site. I found this a while ago and forwarded the address to Adrian for posting on the forum.
The Canadian based site is in fact a completely unbiased database with info on all established religions and spiritual paths, from christinaity and Islam to Wicca and Neo-paganism.
The information there is generally high quality. However, as the researchers for the site have stated, they rely for much income on advertising and they have a fairly liberal policy on what gets advertised, eg your 'jesus' pop up!. Often you get adverts for new age products as well.
However, these are nothing to do with the site itself which is well worth a look!
IMO The sections on Neopagansism and Occultism should be required reading for christian right groups who like to talk about these fields as 'evil'.
Regards,
Douglas
Gandalf,
I honestly have not have time to take a very close look at this particular site. (I have really busy on this board the last few days!) If it is as good as you recommend, however, then I am most definately looking forward to it!
The global numbers that Mohamed found there, however, were just so very different from the ones that I was familiar with, that I could not let them personally inform me.
"Numbers studies" (SA) are very tricky, and biases definately do exist. This is not, by the way, exclusive to religion. It extends to environmental issues, political bases, oh gosh...to just about everything actually.
Thanks for correcting me about the website. I will take a look at it!
G'day Folks!
The words 'holy war' form a total oxymoron, in that 'holy' and 'war' are total opposites in meaning that cancel each other out. Its like saying 'good bad' which is meaningless.
*To preface the below: The below terms were explained to me by a Muslim as an informal explanation of what these terms mean. As someone has rightly pointed out in this thread, the dictionary definition (Islam = submission) is quite different from what I have said. But I like to think my Muslim friend's explanation is true of the majority of Muslims, as by large I find them to be very peaceful and friendly people. So, you can say that the below is my personal interpretation of these words, etc. RB.
The word Islam means 'the way of peace'.
To be a Muslim is, therefore, to be 'a man/woman of peace'.
The word Jihad is also greatly misunderstood. It does not mean 'holy war' at all. It means 'the great struggle'. This term is often applied by Muslims to the 'great inner struggle' of conquering the ego and purifying the inner self. This is something that all devout religious people struggle to do worldwide: to conquere the 'self', regardless of the religion belonged to, although various terms are obviously used by other religions to express this.
The use of the word 'Jihad' today by fanatics is bending its true meaning completely out of shape.
The fundamentalist issues discussed earlier are very true, in that you have a very small minority of fantatics who's actions cause extremely visible problems. But their actions cannot be applied to the great majority of Muslims, just as the actions of fanatical Christians cannot be applied to the majority of Christians. For example, take a Muslim terrorist who plants a bomb, or a Christian terrorist who murders a doctor at an abortion clinic. Neither of these provides a typical representation of their respective religions.
You will find that the fanatical streak of Islam exists mainly in the arab and african countries. Muslims in other countries are far more moderate.
Take care, Robert.
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Bruce
The word Islam means 'the way of peace'.
Robert, with all due respect, I am taking an Islamic Texts course for my Religious Studies degree and I assure you that the word Islam does not mean "way of peace".
the word Islam in fact means "submission". So I don't know where your getting your information from but I am getting mine from a college professor who is indeed a devout Muslim.
Xander
quote:
The words 'holy war' form a total oxymoron
Robert - you took the words right out of my mouth. Regardless of the religous faction starting it, be it Islam, Christian or any other, there is no way you could possibly convince me that the act itself is an act of God, unless of course, the Almighty cares to tell me that him/herself.
And I realize there is a psychological factor involved in this, but I have honestly never, ever understood the mentality or rational behind many of these acts. How could an individual read and (supposedly) 'understand' their holy text, and yet twist it in such a way as to construe killing as being condoned by God, Allah, whatever name you want to attribute to it.
I have read studies (psychologically related) regarding similar 'frenzies' with the Nazi's. And I personally believe that the mental and psychological framework is similar (although I'm not an expert and could be mistaken here). But I keep coming back to how this happens. What drives an individual, or groups of individuals, into committing these actions and believing in every fiber of their being that they are doing the right thing. As saddened and appalled as I am for the victoms of these acts, a part of me feels even more grief and sadness for those committing the crimes.
Sorry for the ramble. I realize that the last part is off-topic, but that's where the train of thought led me. Hope you don't mind.
all those who think that God doesn't promote war have evidentally forgotten about all the nations He *ordered* to be EXTERMINATED, right down to the women and children, the old and the sick. genocide of nations, ordered by God Himself... if you believe the bible [|)]
or what about the people whom God Himself has killed outright? like the guy who touched the Ark of the Covenant...
~kakkarot
quote:
Originally posted by xander
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Bruce
The word Islam means 'the way of peace'.
Robert, with all due respect, I am taking an Islamic Texts course for my Religious Studies degree and I assure you that the word Islam does not mean "way of peace".
the word Islam in fact means "submission".
Actually, you're both wrong and right. You've got to have a grip on semitic languages to understand that the same word can be taken in totally different contexts. The word SLM, from which Islam is derived, means "completion". In Hebrew, it's taken to be inner completion, or 'peace', "shalom". In Arabic, you could take it to mean submission, peace, or really any other derivitive with the root SLM.
quote:
Originally posted by kakkarot
all those who think that God doesn't promote war have evidentally forgotten about all the nations He *ordered* to be EXTERMINATED, right down to the women and children, the old and the sick. genocide of nations, ordered by God Himself... if you believe the bible [|)]
or what about the people whom God Himself has killed outright? like the guy who touched the Ark of the Covenant...
~kakkarot
Good point. I really do not understand it. God gives the Hebrews the command "Thou shall not kill", then turns around and says, "Ok, now you need to kill everyone in these nations, yes, I said wipe them out completely." So is it any wonder why people are so confused over "Holy Wars".
Kakkarot-
I understand what you are saying. I guess, I just don't believe that God actually ever told anyone to kill anyone else. So I guess I understand the confusion people have. But I keep coming back to what the individuals think and feel about it. I believe certain lessons contained in the bible. But there are many things in the bible that I think have been twisted over time and thus don't believe them. But I have no proof of that. Its purely a feeling I get as I read or hear it.
My point would be that, all religious texts were written by man. Then they were interpretated and translated by other men. Then there were updates and edits made to them by others. So all it would take would be for someone to misunderstand something and write it as The Truth. Then others take and misunderstand that and so on. Its the adult version of the grapevine game kids play. I personally don't know for a fact what God said to whom. But based on my understanding of God, I can intuit what parts were inspired by him and what parts were not.
And I owe you much thanks Kakkarot. As I was writing this in response to you, I think I found the understanding that I searching for earlier. The reason people believe that what they are doing is right is because they believe fully what they read and what they are told. They don't stop to question it. They don't listen to how they feel about the actions they are about to undertake.
I feel pretty dense now. The answer is so simple and obvious - yet completely contrary to my way of dealing with things. So I had simply not even considered it as an approach for others before. (rolls eyes at self).
I read some of the replys here so If what I say is a repeat dont be complainin. :)
It seems to me that many religions have had their holy wars. It is like a sick stage in the religions progression. In the begining the Jews came to the "Holy Land" and took it from the people that lived there. That was their Holy WAR. Then Christianity became perverded by the nobel men of Europ and entire armies were sent to Palestine to liberate it from the hands of the "non-bilivers". Now the younges religion, Islam, is at the "HOLY WAR" stage. The terrorist leaders are attacking America and others who they precive as evil. This will come to pass but only after many have died. This HOLY WAR stage in the religions is coused by peoples ignorance and closemindedness. If they only try to anderstand that what realy matters is doing good and Loving people. It does not matter if u are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or any other. The only thing that matters is being good.
It is unfortunate that our sociaty has remaind so infentail and learned virtualy nothing about religion. They kill themselvs in the name of God forgeting there is only one and nomatter what you call him and what you think of him he is unchanging. Many teach others to fear God couseing even more hatred. They want to gain power by doing wrong and they fail to understand that the ULTIMATE POWER comes from LOVE. No other power is greater, not fear not even money motivates people to do what Loves helps them do. Althea at first this seems naive it is not. But one has to learn how to love in our hating world so onone will take advantage of him.
Man I wat way off from the Holy war subject [:P]
[Originally posted by zaicer
The only thing that matters is being good.
>But how do you define the "good"? To some people slaughtering people in the name of their god is "good".
It is unfortunate that our society has remaind so infantile and learned virtualy nothing about religion.
>religion and spirituality are two different things, many forget that.
They kill themselvs in the name of God forgeting there is only one and nomatter what you call him and what you think of him he is unchanging.
>God doesnt change but mans perception of her does, depending on their level of understanding.
Sadly there are those who only understand violence and aggression.
Many teach others to fear God couseing even more hatred. They want to gain power by doing wrong and they fail to understand that the ULTIMATE POWER comes from LOVE.
>Many do understand but it's easier to manipulate others if you make them afraid first. Love says I have power over myself. Fear says I have no power but others do.
But one has to learn how to love in our hating world so onone will take advantage of him.
>Sadly love is seen as weakness to many and at times there are situations which love does nothing but open one up to manipulation.
Many also don't know what love really is. Sometimes the most powerful form of love is fighting against those who would seek to harm others.
>Let me elaborate. A woman about to be beaten and raped showing the sentimental love of popular culture will simply submit. HOWEVER, The woman who practices REAL love will fight for her life any way she can even if it harms the attacker.
>I think I mentioned this before somewhere. I told some manipulative jerk "NO!". He raged and screamed and had a temper tantrum. The next night I had an astral experience in which I encountered him. He smiled and thanked me for telling him "no". he had never before been shown that kind of love, when I inquired about his temper tantrum, he told me that was his ego in full control of him.
>Respect is mutual and earned.
>Xander
Man I wat way off from the Holy war subject [:P]
[/quote]
Good and Bad are indeed subjectiv and are determind by ones perception of the world.
My opinion is that being good is living and leting live others without hurming them. It is VERY HARD to live a life of TRUE LOVE. The popular perception has indeed destorted the picture.
Ur example :"Let me elaborate. A woman about to be beaten and raped showing the sentimental love of popular culture will simply submit. HOWEVER, The woman who practices REAL love will fight for her life any way she can even if it harms the attacker."
That is very true Loving others does not always mean not hurting them. I thought about it much and I came to a conclusion that you can still love someone and knock them out if THEY attack you. But attacking them would be against Love. ALso in direct competition it is ok to beat someone. For example I and a diferent guy love the same girl and she does not know which one of us to pick. If she peaks me that will cause the other guy to suffer, cry, feel pain. But as long as I did not "fight dirty" I will feel guild free. Life will never be pain free. There will always be loosers and winners. But as long as the spirit and the intent will be good (helping others, helping them become independent thinkers and doers) it will be ok.
Another example I thought of is feeling sorry. Many people think that in the spirit of Love one needs to feel sad and sorry if there is misery around. That is not so. Lets say that people around me have sufferd becouse of something and I am happy while they are not. It would be wrong to be sad becouse they are. It would just bring everyone down. It is ok to be doing good and be happy in times of sadnes if:
- you did not cause that suffering
-you are not happy in the sad peoples faces, you allowe them the space to moarn and feel said becouse of whatever
- you try to help them get out of their sadnes
Living the life of TRUE LOVE is very hard (harder then one might think, I try but sometimes I fail, but still I continue to go on and make up for my mestakes) and requaiers CONSTAT THINKING and ANALIZING. Many people dont like to think, they like to take it easy. Hate is easy becouse it is almost self propelant. You hate someone you think about what they did to you, you hate them more, you think about it more, and so on. But in love you forgiv them, althea you dont allow them to do it again.
I think I got to this topic a little late, but I will share my knowledge of it.
quote:
Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.
It is called a Holy War. Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much? If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?
Although many people have already commented on this, I would like to comment also.
quote:
Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.
You bet.
quote:
It is called a Holy War.
Peoplle here have already explained that the literal meaning of the word. Jihad is a "struggle" or "Striving". A jihad in terms of war is strictly political and is an obligation upon the Islamic state, not upon individuals. "Political" Jihad was taken out by the Islamic state for one of three purposes:
1)To defend the Islamic community
2)to defend the oppressed
3)to open up other lands to Islam
For the third one, non-muslims who did not accept Islam were subject to a tax known as jizyah and weere allowed to freely practice their religion. The tax was in place of the cost of their protection, and they were exempted from this tax if they either accepted Islam or trained in the military. As for accepting Islam, the tax would simply be reeplaced by the religious obligation known as zakat(charity), which is of the same proportion as the jizyah. Jizyah was not a discriminatory tax as some people think, but it was simply to pay the costs of the non-Muslims protection under the Islamic state, and to have the same rights as Muslims under the Islamic state.
quote:
Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much?
I'll give you a couple facts as to why I hate America.
1)Their military aid to Israel, which in effect of its establishment, has created the largest refugee population in the world(of Palestinians). Americas bullets, bombs, planes, and tanks are seen throughout the streets of the west bank and gaza, only to suffer the lives of many innocent palestinians and to spread the tyraniical oppression which Israel has been enforcing over the Palestinian population.
2)Their trade embargoes in which they have enforced through the U.N., along with the United Kingdom, which have resulted in the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqi civilians, half of them being children, due to malnutrition and lack of medical supplies etc.
3)Their desire to break down the Islamic civilization more than it already has been broken down. This can be easily seen through the quotes of many government officials such as George Bush who say things like: "it is gonna take a while before we can fully break down their culture", and, "we need to establish freedom and democracy throughout the entire middle east". Much of this can be seen very early on in the American history:
"[the Middle East is] a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history." -- U.S. State Department, 1945
This need to change the Islamic culture, and to spread wicked ideas which are very foreign to Islam, yet so common in American society, such as:
a)free-mixing of the sexes
b)secularism
c)prison-systems
d)abondonment of Islamic law
are yet more reasons why i dislike America.
All of this can be seen through their support of governments such as egypt, who imprison and torture anyone who is deemed a Muslim activist; an example of this is Muhammad Qutb, who was tortured to death just a couple weeks ago in an egyptian prison.
Governments such as Saudi Arabia are pressured by the U.S. constantly, mocked and abused, while Saudi Arabia obeys them in their every will.
4) U.S. occupation of the middle east. http://www.ramadhan.org/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/rorgflash/USbases.swf
that is a good link to know about the U.S. occupation of the middle east and how they have abused their power.
The occupation is probably the most angering; it is once again humiliation of the Muslim nations and their people. They become infuriated daily at the U.S.'s use of the Islamic Holy Land as the spot in which to kill other Muslims.
For those of you who think that radical Muslims are simply out to "kill kill kill" for no absolutely no reason; the truth is that radical Islam is simply a reactionary movement, starting from the British break up of the Ottoman empire and the Imperialism the Muslim world has been facing for so long.
quote:
If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?
I explained above as others have that Jihad is not a 'holy war', yet a 'struggle'. Politically, jihad would fit more of the bounds of the western term: 'just war'.
Radical Muslims have declared war on the U.S. in reaction to U.S. policy. The religion of Christianity really does not have much to do with it; it is the secularist democratic Western ideals in which radical Muslims hate. They are fighting against the oppression and slaughter which has been raiding the Muslim lands under the banner of Democracy and freedom. If you do not believe me, then read the main statement of Osama Bin Laden himself as proof:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
At this point you may be pondering if Im a radical Muslim. Im a radical Muslim in that a I believe that the America should leave the middle east, stop supporting Israel, and completely leave the Muslims alone. I do not agree with Osama's fatwa to kill the Americans, civilians and military, in any country they are found, in that the fatwa goes against Islamic principles. Civilians are not to be targeted in war, and the enemy's military is not fought in his own land.
]Originally posted by DjMidgetMan[/i]
I'll give you a couple facts as to why I hate America.
1)Their military aid to Israel,
2)Their trade embargoes in which they have enforced through the U.N., 3)Their desire to break down the Islamic civilization more than it already has been broken down.
<first of all I want to say that the first I was aware of Islam was when WTC massacre happened. I have since then attempted to educate myself in regards to the Muslim point of veiw. From reading parts of the Hadith, Qur'an, and other various Islamic writtings I have come to the conclusion that Islam is a very beautiful religion.
>Secondly I agree with the 3 reasons given as to why they hate america.
We are indeed a nation of conquerers. Our govt is out of the peoples control and the coporate political elite seek to in essence rule the world.
For those of you who think that radical Muslims are simply out to "kill kill kill" for no absolutely no reason; the truth is that radical Islam is simply a reactionary movement, starting from the British break up of the Ottoman empire and the Imperialism the Muslim world has been facing for so long.
>Very true. No wonder the highest ranking professions for Muslims are engineers, chemists, etc. We defeated them with science, they must defeat us the same way.
quote:
If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?
I explained above as others have that Jihad is not a 'holy war', yet a 'struggle'. Politically, jihad would fit more of the bounds of the western term: 'just war'.
>Declaring it a holy war causes most americans to see it emotionally rather than politically. If americans knew it was politics many would tell our govt to get out of the middle east and leave them alone. We are doing to Islam what the brits did to the colonies in the 1700's
At this point you may be pondering if Im a radical Muslim. Im a radical Muslim in that a I believe that the America should leave the middle east, stop supporting Israel, and completely leave the Muslims alone. I do not agree with Osama's fatwa to kill the Americans, civilians and military, in any country they are found, in that the fatwa goes against Islamic principles. Civilians are not to be targeted in war, and the enemy's military is not fought in his own land.
>Well given that Criteria then I geuss I too am a radical Muslim.
>Respectfully
>Xander
[/quote]
quote:
It seems to me that many religions have had their holy wars. It is like a sick stage in the religions progression. In the begining the Jews came to the "Holy Land" and took it from the people that lived there. That was their Holy WAR. Then Christianity became perverded by the nobel men of Europ and entire armies were sent to Palestine to liberate it from the hands of the "non-bilivers". Now the younges religion, Islam, is at the "HOLY WAR" stage. The terrorist leaders are attacking America and others who they precive as evil. This will come to pass but only after many have died. This HOLY WAR stage in the religions is coused by peoples ignorance and closemindedness. If they only try to anderstand that what realy matters is doing good and Loving people. It does not matter if u are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or any other. The only thing that matters is being good.
The first thing I would like to note, is that from a Muslim perspective, Islam is not the youngest religion. Muslims believe that Islam(submission unto God) is the religion revealed unto all prophets. Muslims believe that Moses, Jesus, Abraham, David, Muhammad, etc.(peace be upon them all) were all prophets of God, preaching to believe in one God, and worship him, with partners.
The main difference between Islam and Christianity is that we do not believe in the Holy Trinity, and we do not believe that Jesus(peace be upon him) is the son of God. We believe Jesus was a righteous slave of God, who taught to worship one God, as did his followers.
Secondly, Good, as xander said, is how you define it. As Muslims, we see the Quran and the example of the Muhammad(peace be upon him) as the criterion of what is right and what is wrong. As humans our intelligence is very limited, and although we have an innate instinct to do what is good, our desires lead us astray, and the difference between right and wrong is not always clear to us. As Muslims*, we submit unto our Creator, and rely on what He has revealed to judge between us in our affairs.
Pre-marital sex. Is this something good or evil? Many people will say that there is nothing wrong with it, and many people in fact encourage it. Yet if you talk to many religious Christians, Jews, or Muslims, they will tell you that such an act is completely wicked. In such a case, the idea of "treat others how you would like to be treated" does not apply. In this case is it okay to have premarital sex? What do you think?
*The word Muslim literally means: "submitter(unto God)"
I am well aware of the things american government did in the middle east. I know that they support Israel, and I know what Israel did. I know about how american governmetnt manipulates the Soudi gov. and I know that the Soudi opposition is suppresed and not allowed to voice their opinions and the US supports this. Todays US elites do many bad things, one might even call them EVIL.
I am also aware of the fact that Saddam killed many of his people and how he gasses the Kurds. I know how he became mini Hitlem! I am aware of the fact of what Osama and his followers did and how many bad things they did.
These two groups are bought equal in their atrocities. They bought kill and murder, and do many bad things.
As fare as I am concerned these two forces will slowly eradicate eachother. I do not want to have anything to do with it becouse there is no way this conflict be resolved without changing the leaders on BOUGHT sides.
I understand that many Muslims Hate america and why. I understand why many Americans hate Muslims and why. But I dont think that Hate is the answer.
I myself am Polish and I could hate the Germans for killing MILLIONS of my countryman during WW II, and I could hate them now for having the audacidy to ask for Polish land which does not bellong to them and say :"You have taken it away from us after the war, give it back"
I could hate the Russians for polluting my culture with their comunist ideas and destroying my people. I could hate them for allowing the comunist elits to take over my country and rob it blind leaving nothing but runins.
I could hate those groups for trying to COMPLITYLY ERADICATE my people as if they were infirior and for trying to complitly erase my culture and any Polish heretig during the Partitions of Poland and during WW I and WW II. But I do not hate.
I do not hate becouse I know that Hate is not the way. I know that the people that did this are only a small group. Those that follow are uneducated and manipulated. Hate breeds nothing but more hate.
I do not hate but I would not allow them to do this again.
I do not see any good short term solutin for this problem. But I do not think that killing eachother is the way. Now america is "making" Iraq democratic, they are "making" Afganistan democratic and they are claiming to make those countrys self sufficient. I can only hope that those countries will grow and become as self reliant as Germany is now. Germany was "occupied" the same way that middle east is. But look at them now. The german government is looking the US is the eye and saying No this war on Iraq is not good. This is wrong or that is wrong. And they are not pushed around. I think that this is the only way that the groups that opose america can win. Use the democratic system in their way. Take power in their country peacufuly and be good. They do not have to fire even a single bullet to push the Americans and other militaris out of their homeland. They just have to stand on their two legs without a gun in their hand and tell the americans to leave. Althea many will say that the fundamentalists will not take power becouse the US will not let them they are wrong. There are so many countris that have bussines there. One simply needs to use one of these giants as a steping stone to power, and in a peacfull way solv the problem.
But this subjet has nothing to do with the Spiritual purpus of this forum it belongs elswhere.
Going back to the subject of premarital sex that was mentiond I have to say that it is a problem of the individual. Just like all other things it can be procived as good or bad or gray, dependig on our personal "reality filter"[:o)]
Everyone has to choose for themselvs. I can only choose for myself and be like a beeken for other people to follow. If they choose to do good things then good for them, if they choose to do bad things then they should be stoped before they hurt someone else.
I think that the ultimate evil is limiting someones independenc.[:P]
I was wondering somthing a lot of u who say that u hate the US list as a major reson that it suports Isral well as a jew I expected that but I've never herd a muslims of this apinan say why[?]
Let's take an objective ('cause everyone knows my thoughts are always objective;or else...) view for a moment.
Terrorism is a phenomena caussed by social and economic conditions that leave the people with no other way to excert their influence other than desperate and violent action.
Individuals seeing that as a means to further their own causes and fortify their power use anything to justify such behaviour and to perpetuate it as best they can. They use religion and heavenly redemption since this is what most people see as the ultimate authority and reward.
What the religion being used says in the matter is conveniently edited or repressed to further the goals.
The bible says "Do not kill" yet the crusades happened, yet christianity is still being shoved down peoples throats as the oinly true faith all the while abhorrinng that some other religious so-called leader do the same.
As the original poster said "Radical Islam" has done something. What is radical Islam and has anyone stopped to find out what Islam is a bout?
"Radical Christianity" has replied in kind but has anyone stopped to consider what Christianity is all about?
I pose a question: Has anyone stopped to consider anything on their own or has everyone just accepted ideas spoon fed to them by someone else?
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.
It is called a Holy War. Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much? If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?