Define evil.
me
quote:
Originally posted by Hiebreed
Hey, how many of you think the occult is evil and how many actually engage in occult practices?
the occult is much of what one makes of it. i engage in occult activities frequently, even though at times the only thing that occurs is an altered emotional state.
Xander
Too subjective.
As Tab said, define evil.
The literal meaning of the word Occult (in its most basic defenition) is "hidden from view". A more expanded definition would be "Having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence. Beyond ordinary understanding."
Ask a Wiccan or Pagan and we'd say no.
If you were to ask a Pentecostal or fundamentalist christian, the answer would be "Hell yes!" The irony here is that by pure defenition of the word, Christianity is also occult.
James.
Greetings,
As has already been mentioned, "occult" simply means "hidden" in literal terms, and could apply to anything.
The reason most Spiritual, mystical and Magical pursuits are occult, is because they had to remain hidden from the persecution of the dogmatic religions and others, otherwise they would not be occult at all, but rather a natural aspect of living.
Occult, far from being evil, is just the opposite, and many occultists would say that the churches are evil due to the death and suffering inflicted on followers of Spiritual traditions over the years.
With best regards,
Adrian.
to hiebreed:
1) no
2) 546,543,164 people give or take 32,000 [;)].
~kakkarot
Yes I do believe it is evil, and that many pick up spiritual hitchikers from these activities. Tarot cards and divining as well. They all rely on the help of spiritual powers and one can open oneself to dark spirits through this stuf. How evil !!!! well I also believe addiction to drugs is evil, love and greed of money, sexual perversions etc.
You are, and what is more you become, what you desire to be. People mainly seek power through this, and are often corrupted. Be carefull if you play with fire you might get burned. Dont take my word for it though, look up Robert Bruces book for references and look at the problem some people on this thread has gotten themselves into. Make up your own mind.
Regards Mustardseed
Fine let me rephrase my question, "How many of you think white magick (spells) are evil, how many think the tarot is evil? Even if you use it for good purposes?
tools are not evil. people are evil. and evil people can use any tool they want to propogate their evil.
good people sometimes silly-ly ([|)]) name tools as "evil" because they can lead the morally weak away from doing good if they are not careful in what they are doing ("Nearly all men can stand adversity. If you truly want to test a man's character, give him power" -i forget who said it). as well some evil people arrogantly call some tooks evil because they want to seem "more cool" in what they're doing.
a tool is neither good nor evil: a good person can use a knife just like an evil person can. a good person can use divination methods just like an evil person can. the only thing that differentiates who is good from who is evil is the *purpose* of what is being done: whether to help people or to harm people.
~kakkarot
Wow... I'm new here and was just exploring, but after reading all this i realize this is a place for the wise. I guess I'd better leave hahahahaha...[8D]
QuoteOriginally posted by kakkarot
people are evil.
>I don't think people are born evil. I think that it's a combination of circumstance, experience, and perception.
>we must also consider the definition of evil. For example in nazi germany the nazis considered jews and their associates to be evil, the jews considered the nazis to be evil. The winners get to write the history books and thus we call the nazis evil. However, if the nazis would have won the history books would say things championing hitler and the early nazi movement, the jews would be a people relegated to myth as they would be gone by now.
>individuals, especially those with power, often consider themselves good and others as evil. Introspection is lacking in most people, including those in power such as law makers.
Xander
i didn't say from birth. and i'm not saying *all* people are evil. what i said was that tools are not evil, people are. as in: it is not the tools that are good or evil, it is the people that use the tools that are good or evil.
must i really spell that out for people? -_-
~kakkarot
Good and Evil are merely opinions. One person's good is another's evil, and vise versa.
And last time I checked Astral Projection and practically everything else on this site is considered occult.
Do I think the occult is evil? No
Do I engage in occult practices? Yes
Tarot cards and divining as well. They all rely on the help of spiritual powers and one can open oneself to dark spirits through this stuf
Mustardseed
----------------------------------------------------
Mustardseed, I have used Tarot cards for years, as well as many other forms of oracles and I can't disagree with you enough!
Tarot cards, like any oracle like I ching or runes, are called 'oracles' as they are used to find answers to personal issues by allowing you to communicate with your sub-conscious self, who know more than you do. Tarot cards primary reason is to enlighten the *present* and to give advice on what path to take, while warning of particualr consequences of taking certain decisions.
When you consult an oracle, you are consulting yourself, not demons!
Dreams are also forms of oracles, are you saying we should not interprete our dreams or ask for guidance through our dreams? christians seem to do that quite often! You certainly havnt made any real study of tarot cards or any oracle imo, and books from 'christian science' bookstores on the topic certainly shouldnt be trusted!
I'm afraid your quote above is an all too common example of christian progaganda which you repeat either without thinking about it or you have swallowed it whole. This smear campaign has been ongoing for years and is now so widespread that there is now a common beleif amongst the general public that the term 'occultism' = 'satanism', this is the churches doing.
As example, how often do you see 'occultism', or 'witchcraft' thrown in with 'evil' or 'black magic' in the media/press?
I've actually given up writing in to explain the difference!
As far as the term 'occult' goes, despite what the church, the media and bad holywood movies would have you believe, the tem just refers to hidden knowedge.
btw this very forum would be refered to a 'occult' by many christian groups who, if it was up to them, would have us all shut down!
Regards,
Douglas
I would have to say that is isn't anything-it just is.
it's what the person does w/it that counts.just like if you have a great big sharp knife.you can rip someones guts out,or you can chop the vegtables![:P]
quote:
Originally posted by jason
if you have a great big sharp knife.you can rip someones guts out,or you can chop the vegtables![:P]
hmmmmm.....I smell a B Movie! Attack of teh Mutant Vegetables!
Xander
quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
Tarot cards and divining as well. They all rely on the help of spiritual powers and one can open oneself to dark spirits through this stuf
Mustardseed
----------------------------------------------------
Mustardseed, I have used Tarot cards for years, as well as many other forms of oracles and I can't disagree with you enough!
Tarot cards, like any oracle like I ching or runes, are called 'oracles' as they are used to find answers to personal issues by allowing you to communicate with your sub-conscious self, who know more than you do. Tarot cards primary reason is to enlighten the *present* and to give advice on what path to take, while warning of particualr consequences of taking certain decisions.
When you consult an oracle, you are consulting yourself, not demons!
Dreams are also forms of oracles, are you saying we should not interprete our dreams or ask for guidance through our dreams? christians seem to do that quite often! You certainly havnt made any real study of tarot cards or any oracle imo, and books from 'christian science' bookstores on the topic certainly shouldnt be trusted!
I'm afraid your quote above is an all too common example of christian progaganda which you repeat either without thinking about it or you have swallowed it whole. This smear campaign has been ongoing for years and is now so widespread that there is now a common beleif amongst the general public that the term 'occultism' = 'satanism', this is the churches doing.
As example, how often do you see 'occultism', or 'witchcraft' thrown in with 'evil' or 'black magic' in the media/press?
I've actually given up writing in to explain the difference!
As far as the term 'occult' goes, despite what the church, the media and bad holywood movies would have you believe, the tem just refers to hidden knowedge.
btw this very forum would be refered to a 'occult' by many christian groups who, if it was up to them, would have us all shut down!
Regards,
Douglas
quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
Tarot cards and divining as well. They all rely on the help of spiritual powers and one can open oneself to dark spirits through this stuf
Mustardseed
----------------------------------------------------
Mustardseed, I have used Tarot cards for years, as well as many other forms of oracles and I can't disagree with you enough!
Tarot cards, like any oracle like I ching or runes, are called 'oracles' as they are used to find answers to personal issues by allowing you to communicate with your sub-conscious self, who know more than you do. Tarot cards primary reason is to enlighten the *present* and to give advice on what path to take, while warning of particualr consequences of taking certain decisions.
When you consult an oracle, you are consulting yourself, not demons!
I'm afraid your quote above is an all too common example of christian progaganda which you repeat either without thinking about it or you have swallowed it whole.
I'm sorry about that last post. my computer was acting up. but to my argument. i highly disagree with your debate on whom you communicate with while using forms of oracles and/or divination. I strongly feel that we only believe what we are communicating to, or who even. some belief systems may feel we talk to demons, some another form of higher power, and some our subconscious, or maybe even our neighbors! But who are we to decide which is correct? the fact is: WE DONT KNOW. nor will we ever i beleive unless the apocolypse engulfs us and the carrots all over the planet start spewing the secrets to life, death, and infinity! That's my personal opinion. No doubt there are many of you that highsly disagree with my argument, but it's my belief that our beliefs shape our beliefs (does that makes sense? oh well). Trying to decide on whether we talk to spirits, demons, gods, or ourselves through oracles and divination would be like deciding the true religious path. Can we truly judge?
Jess
quote:
You are, and what is more you become, what you desire to be. People mainly seek power through this, and are often corrupted. Be carefull if you play with fire you might get burned. Dont take my word for it though, look up Robert Bruces book for references and look at the problem some people on this thread has gotten themselves into. Make up your own mind.
Where does Robert Bruce say the occult is evil?
And btw, 'astral projection' is considered occult by many, many people.
i highly disagree with your debate on whom you communicate with while using forms of oracles and/or divination. I strongly feel that we only believe what we are communicating to, or who even. some belief systems may feel we talk to demons, some another form of higher power, and some our subconscious, or maybe even our neighbors!
Fortier Du Lune_
--------------------------------------------
Tell me how 'spirits' can get involved in interpreting tarot cards?
The only person interpreting them is YOU! Due to the many meanings attributed to each card, your mind starts finding connections between cards and forms a useful piece of advice from the spread.
There is nothing 'mystical' about this it is psychology; for that reason there are many psychologists who use tarot cards to help patients work through problems and make them think about areas of their life that perhaps they had neglected.
At what point can a 'spirit' come into the process? In fact, your mind makes patterns out of many random phenomena on a daily basis, by your argument even lying back and looking at shapes in the clouds invites 'demonic influences', as does interpreting dreams.
Tarot or any oracle follows the same process.
Try to think about what you actually DO when you use tarot cards, or imagine shapes in the fire, or work out what advice your dreams are telling you, and you will see that the 'evil spirit' argument makes no sense. In reality we are influenced by our subconsious all the time, and there are many tools that can help us to gain a bit of clarity as to what it is saying.
To sum, tarot reading is akin to a form of visual psychiatric counciling; but only a true churchman would call that 'evil'.
Douglas
Once again it differs by belief. You may believe the logical sense. But others, including myself, may believe that our subconscious feelings, thoughts, even dreams, may be influenced by other forces. I'm not saying that you're wrong in any way. But your trying to change my beliefs and the beliefs of possibley other people in the world I find rather offensive. You are somewhat applying logical realistic aspects to an indefinite mystical science, if that's the word i could use. By no means do I mean to prove your beliefs wrong in anyway, i'm simply stating that i find them rather narrow-minded in the fact that it is very possible indeed that there are forces outside those of which we see,hear,feel,taste,smell and know. The sensual aspects of life are only the beginning. I believe myself that intuition is gently guided at times by other entities. What those entities are i wont kid myself about. I don't really know at all. It could be that i have an amazing subconscious ability to predict when something's up. But i highly doubt it. Though my intuition and other things, by my own feelings among other things, seem more as if guided by another than simply something that i don't actually know, but i do know at the same time. Hence I have no confidence whatsoever in the fact that I'm telling myself things. Though i don't doubt that our brains may very well find patterns in tarot cards, clouds, dreams, and such, there are many things like ouija boards, intuitive pulls, de ja vu, etc, that i just can't believe are coming from myself. I don't really care about whether you agree with me or not at this point, but i just ask that you don't rule out all possible aspects of something, as it may just be found offensive by someone like me who also like a bit of debate every now and then ;)
I hope you understand where I'm coming from [:D]
Jess
Its only Evil depending on how you look at it.
If you are afraid of fire(because you got burned as a child), you might think ppl that are building a campfire would be evil.
If you as a child was jumped on by a friendly playing dog that said woff, you might be afraid of dogs when you are adult and see dogs as evil.
You might think ppl that demolish houses with big machines would be evil if you have never understood that they do it to build something better on that ground and that it is planned and will not harm you.
Occultism is a very huge area, there are some parts in it that a few ppl would consider evil, but that is only because they have a view on reality that is limited. Look beyond your belief and you shall see that what you might think is evil is not evil at all for others.
It is only Evil if you think it is.
Fortier Du Lune_
I apologise if I caused offence, that was not my intention; for the record I have no problem with the notion of non-physical forces influencing our minds per say.
The problem I have is the seemingly paranoid notion that by using tarot or any oracle, this is any more risky than everyday life, where we are influenced by our subconscious mind on a constant basis.
What then would you say the difference is? If something can influence us while using tarot cards, it can influence us any time, so why worry about it? Unless you think there is somthing 'evil' about the cards themselves, in which case you must explain why this is the case:
Firstly, for those who think that tarot cards are from the devil, a short history is required:
What we call tarot cards first made their appearence in Medieval Europe around 14th/15th century in Spain, spreading to Italy and the rest of Europe quickly.
Contrary to new age thought, Tarot cards were originally common playing cards, you can find many of the rules for the original games on the net.
After a few years, gifted individuals who specialised in reading fortunes and using oracles, found them useful as a divining tool; up until this time they also used other random gaming devices such as dice etc (but who would say that dice are evil?).
Tarot cards thus began to be used for divining but they also continued to be used for gaming.
During the 18th/19th century when tarot/playing cards were modernised and simplified by many gaming companies (into the modern deck we are familiar with), the old deck continued to be used by the diviners while the general gaming public switched to using the modern deck. At this point the decks went along different paths, and the old deck gradually adopted the mystical connotations that we understand today as tarot.
In the mid to late 19th century several occultist realised the value of these cards as an oracular tool and infused them with further kabbalistic meanings and other occult symbolism. The two greatest results of this project were Waite's deck and Crowley's Thoth tarot, two excellent oracles.
Due to the shared origins of both old and new decks, you can see how both are similar in many respects, but with swords becoming clubs, cups becoming hearts etc, while many of the trumps have survived in a formalised fashion ie king queen etc.
even the death card, which originaly was just a feature of the old gaming deck, became ace of spades.
I am in no way degrading the tarot or any oracle, far from it, but what i am saying is that their origin is not mystical in any way; ignore new agers that try to state that such cards originated in Egypt etc as there is no evidence for this.
Their occult value as an oracle has been quite rightly recognised however, by Crowely, Waite and others, and they have become an indispensible oracular tool to many people around the world.
Douglas
PS I highly recomend downloading some of the original card games for tarot though; it is a great novelty thing to do with you tarot cards and you are also using the cards for their purest and original purpose!
I forgot to ask... for those that use Tarot cards, what decks do you prefer? I like the good old Rider-Waite but thats the tradtionalist in me!
Crowely's Thoth tarot is good as well but a little to archetypal for me, requiring a good deal of occult knowledge to understand all the symbols.
What's your opinion on all the modern decks? I think there are some good ones out there but also some real dogs; for tarot cards to be of use, the person who made them has to have a good understanding of subconsious imagery and archetypes, and I suspect that many new decks are just gimmicks to make cash.. eg the Vampire tarot..I mean, come on!
Regards,
Douglas
Fortier Du Lune,
Please don't get into that old "I'm offended" line -- it's so old it's growing moss! Gandalf was not trying to convert you from or to anything, he was just giving his take on the subject. You know, sort of like you did??? [;)] If you want to see "offended" check out the Mayatnik posts.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Tarot cards are a tool you can use to sort through your choices in life. Is there some "higher power" govering how the spreads come down? I don't know. [?]
Another personal opinion:
The terms "occult", "mystical", "metaphysical", etc. all describe phenomena we just don't understand at the present time. I believe in time we will understand more about how our brains function and will find that what is occult today is just a part of normal physiology tomorrow. I'm not saying there are no other beings "out there" somewhere, I just don't know. I am content to keep practicing and working toward understanding more than I do now. For me, that's hard enough!
Gandalf, can you point me to a website that has rules for games using Tarot cards? I've got some friends I play card games with most weekends and that would absolutely blow their minds! [:D]
Also, if anyone knows of a Tarot deck based on wolves, I would be MOST interested. I've found one so far, but it is pretty crudely done. I want them to look like they'll walk off the page!
Greatoutdoors:
Here is a link to once such Tarot gaming site that has information on the various tarot game rules, some of which are original and others which are more modern rules. Its also interesting to note that the original game rules for tarot vary slightly from country to country; In Spain, where tarot card games originated in the 14/15th century, the rules differ slightly from Italy where the game 'spread' to (pardon the pun) later.
http://www.pagat.com/tarot/index.html
Douglas
Although I differ in belief towards the fact as to what influences divining or however I can word it, I believe I strayed from the initial debate. Therefore, I believe I will state my opinion on the original subject now: No, I do not believe that the occult is evil. It is simply a typical aspect of many peoples' lives. And I don't recall knowing mych of what has been posted on these boards, but even before I'd read the others' arguments I agreed that it isn't the tool that's evil, 'tis the user (to take words from someone who stated that opinion and which was very well argued by someone on the first page [;)]) All the information that I have obtained through this board has been VERY interesting to me, as I had no knowledge, for example, that tarot cards had been used for gaming!! (Thank you gandalf) and I by no means wish to influence anyone and I'm sorry if I was a bit of a pain in the @$$ [:D]
Jess
Fortier Du Lune,
No problem, and I'm sorry if I sounded a bit "preachy". It's just that this forum is such a good opportunity to share and learn, if only we don't get mired in personality/ego issues. And believe me, I have to say that goes for me, too![B)] I'm new at this stuff too -- maybe together we can all be both teachers and students! [:)]
Gandalf,
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.[:)]
Learning is great...
learning is fun
but even more fun
with EVERYONE
okay sorry I'm being stupid... I'm just really bored.... eep... next person who sees this post needs to IM me hahahahahahaha....[:D]
The occult is evil.
It opens up the doors to the minds and wills of demons.
However,
Some beleive good to be the stronger force within the body of God which will be to their dismay when the gates of hell are unleashed from the lower astral to distroy the imperfection of all men and the undecided flakes of humanity.
Choose wisely.
I'm sorry falseprophet, but no matter how many times i read that, i odn't understand a word of it. is there a way you could put it in more basic terms for those of us (ME) who are less knowledgeable towards the opinion you're trying to convey?
G'day folks!
The original premise = "The Occult is Evil"
One cannot have this both ways....
Occult = hidden knowledge, esoteric knowledge, paranormal knowledge and experience, or supernatural knowledge and experience, eg, anything outside or above and beyond normal physical life and normal physical senses.
In the way this term was used to start this thread, it was stated that everything occult, paranormal or supernatural is evil.
Therefore, this same statement also says that angels and the holy spirit are evil, because these are about as paranormal as it gets.
Healing, speaking in tongues, exorcism, even prayer, are thus also evil because these must be classed as esoteric or 'occult' practices.
This also applies to many bible events and characters, as some obviously had occult knowledge, experience and ability, eg, walking on water, turning water into wine, materializing food, healing the sick, raising the dead, communicating with spiritual beings, seeing visions, hearing voices, predicting the future, etc, etc, etc.
For example, if one has a vision and sees something in the future, one has had an occult/paranormal/supernatural experience and been given occult/supernatural/esoteric knowlege.
Now, I'm sure the originator of the thoughtless premise 'the occult is evil' did not have this in mind at the time. (This person is obviously religious). But you cannot have things both ways. Either the occult is all evil as per the original statement, or only some occult things are evil. Now, debating this matter would obviously lead to circular arguments, because the originator is using two sets of rules here: one stated and one unstated. So, what I am suggesting here is that this person rephrases and clarifies his/her original premise.
Food for thought...
RB.
Indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by False Prophet
The occult is evil.
It opens up the doors to the minds and wills of demons.
However,
Some beleive good to be the stronger force within the body of God which will be to their dismay when the gates of hell are unleashed from the lower astral to distroy the imperfection of all men and the undecided flakes of humanity.
Choose wisely.
haha! that's just too funny. [:D] thanks for the laugh, false [|)]. i always loved a good "distroying" [;)], 'specially wit' them thar suthern folks [:D].
quote:
RB
In the way this term was used to start this thread, it was stated that everything occult, paranormal or supernatural is evil.
actually, this thread was opened up with the question of who thinks it is evil.
quote:
Hiebreed
Hey, how many of you think the occult is evil and how many actually engage in occult practices?
sorry to nitpick, but ... yeah [|)]. good points though.
~kakkarot
I think that Robert has a very valid point. It seems that we would have to define "the occult" . For me personally, I seem to have some built in "code of ethics" maybe put there by generally accepted Christian doctrine, or maybe put there by God?.
However I must admit this "code of ethics" seem to change ever so slightly as I get to different points of my life. Things I would possibly have called occult years ago as a young christian I no longer see as evil. Now wheather that means that in time I will be talking to the pleideans, spreading tarot and worshipping satan I strongly doubt!. If we accept Roberts definition of the occult we all angage in it, however there seem to be different ways to interpret it.
I think that in "my universe" for want of a better word, any spirit guide or whatever who confesses to Jesus being the son of God having lived and died and all that, would be called a pure channel. (Just had a very interesting chat with James about his guide the spirit of nature very touching).I do believe that there is a war in the spirit and infiltrations occur. It seems the dark side is always trying to take the credit for things and claiming to be the creator of various practices. Another point is the whole deal of esoteric hidden knowledge. I am not sure how this works but if there is knowledge hidden by a group of people, and various stages can be accessed through various steps then that would also to me constitute the dark side being involved. I am here thinking about levels of free masons , scientologists , covens (maybe) and that sort of thing. If it is there it should be there for all and at all time. Freely shared and never hoarded or used for personal gain. I am here not thinking about Robert writing a book, that seems fair and quite straight, but a lot of the New Age and Occult involves exchange of large amounts of money for readings etc. This goes for the Christians as well. The whole teleevangelist, send me your money, is just as off as the catolics back in the dark ages selling salvation.
This is all written as a first shot , just thoughts and not meant to be a thought out philosofical statement.
Regards Mustardseed
Greetings Mustardseed,
You make an excellent point whether you realised it or not.
The only reason "occult" or "esoteric" subjects exist, is because, rather than being general knowledge, i.e. available to all, they have been forced undergound by centuries of persecution, mostly by the churches.
Most knowledge and abilities which are considered "occult" therefore might well be considered "evil" by the various religions who oppose all mystical, Spiritual and Magical areas, but in terms of the grand scheme of things they should be neither occult or evil, but rather the rightful inheritance and abilities of all mankind.
There are some rather notable anomalies however. I am sure most people would agree that channeling might be regarded as occult, and yet a senior person at the vatican recently stated in the vatican's own publication that the modern catechism allows people to communicate with "dearly departed relatives" who now reside in an "ultra-terrestrial dimension". The dimension of course is the Astral in all but name.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Hey all!
quote:
The only reason "occult" or "esoteric" subjects exist, is because, rather than being general knowledge, i.e. available to all, they have been forced undergound by centuries of persecution, mostly by the churches.
This is the only reason that I can come up with as to why the interpretive method for scripture that I have been presenting and discussing these many weeks was for all intents and purposes "lost."
I have traced this interpretive method back as far as the 300's b.c.e through about the 4th century c.e., it then disappears. I found it again with the early Kabbalists, 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries, but beyond that the evidence is very scanty. After this time, it just seemingly disappeared, unless it was written about in another foreign language and is archieved away in a library or museum somewhere.
What I do know is this: This interpretive method was used by early Hellenistic Jewish scholars/mystics and a great many of the earliest Christians. So--this interpretive method is "esoteric" in that it "WAS" intentionally kept hidden for so many centuries--and then it became hidden in another way, through the Church assuring that it totally disappeared from the scene.
So--yes--during the ancient and medieval periods, a lot of knowledge became "esoteric" and/or "occult"
by necessity. Mystical groups were formed that were forced to meet in secrecy to avoid not only servere persecusions by the Church--but death was usually a very good possibility as well.
I would like to point out one more thing: Galileo was one such "heretic" that was imprisoned for most of his life. He continued to write about his astronomical discoveries and ideas, but these had to be written and transmitted under a very protective secret cover. During those days--
the fact that the earth WAS NOT at the center of the universe
was considered "occult" knowledge and was most definately "esoteric."
Peace,
Beth
p.s.
quote:
Another point is the whole deal of esoteric hidden knowledge. I am not sure how this works but if there is knowledge hidden by a group of people...it should be there for all and at all time. Freely shared and never hoarded or used for personal gain.
I find this a very interesting comment. My research is one such branch of "esoteric knowledge" and yet--it is right here for all to see and read, and to even explore for themselves--but if you will notice how it has been received by "some people", e.g., from strong disagreement to accusations of its "evil." If it were a different time period now--I would have probably already been layed upon the racks or burned at the stake for sharing this knowledge. And yet--sharing it I am. I am not "forming an esoteric group" to keep it from the public, and while I am in the process of writing a book about it, I have yet to make a dime off of it, and further--my education has cost me a great deal of money. So in essence, I have personally gone into debt to make this knowledge available for everyone.
So--be careful how you moan and groan about knowledge being withheld from you--for even as it is being made available to you now -- you do not like what you are finding.
Esoteric wisdom is esoteric by nature, it simply cannot be any other way. You can't express to a mass public the concepts that one must grasp to become adept in an esoteric tradition. Only through genuine truth seeking and contemplation (and it's purer state, meditation) can these truths be obtained. Thus, only the true-spirited can obtain it. It's a built-in padlock.
Of course, when you do express esoteric concepts to a population, you get exoteric ideas that become inherently corrupt and misunderstood. That may well be the source of all mass religion and religious corruption (anthropomorphism, inconsistancy, contradiction, nonsense, blind faith).
Tab,
I agree in once sense of the word. Like most everything else we experience in this world, there are at least two different manifestations: as above--so below.
There is knowledge that we currently possess, that was considered "esoteric" in ancient days, e.g., much of what we all study in philosophy and theology classes was during the ancient period with held from the masses and studied only by the educated elite. Today things are much different--most all of us are "educated elite" by ancient standards, so therefore we do have the capacity to understand "ancient esoteric" knowledge.
Now, with that said, there is MOST definately "esoteric knowledge and wisdom" that is highly subjective and experienced individually. What my experience of the divine has been, you or others may or may not understand. It is ultimately up to me to sift through and discern what is worthy of seeking further and what is not. This is between me and the divine. Yes--if I were to start a "church of Beth" and try to "teach my experience" it would most certainly led to absolute disaster. I cannot "teach" my subjective experience to anyone else as a means or a model for any one else's experience. And yes--I think that is in great part what happened with Christianity--the subjective experiences of a few people became concretized into the "absolute truth for everyone."
But refuting anyone elses experiences, or trying to make the claim "my experience is the only TRUE experience" are not the only choices. I certainly think we can all "compare notes" and find similiarities, associations and correlations that will help to support us all as we seek the divine.
More later! [:)]
Peace,
Beth
Qoute:
So--be careful how you moan and groan about knowledge being withheld from you--for even as it is being made available to you now -- you do not like what you are finding.
I think moaning and groaning maybe too.........expressive if you are trying to discribe me that is. I was merely trying to define Occult, or at least give some signs of what I would term occult practices. One of them is a system where people who adhere to a certain belief are allowed to progress to more inside knowledge only as it is seen fit my the ones allready there. I have read (I dont accept it as truth till I know ) that the masons have officially 30 levels but further levels exist. Like covens where you have to have an initiation and maybe some gradual "being allowed "more and more knowledge. If you felt I was moaning and groaning let me correct my statement.
On your other point I would agree with you that new thinking is not too popular in places like tha vatican and Christian mainstream, obviously a attempt to remain in control. However many splinter groups have emerged from this supression and have succesfully established themselves through new doctrines, only themselves to become the new supressors. This seem to be a human factor. Any new system of beliefs that forms seem to quickly solidify and turn hard and brittle unless it is kept mouldable and mallable but constant infusion of the Spirit for want of a better word. The moment anyone of us loose that spirit of searching and asking and the moment we see ourselves "having arrived" and believe that we have found "the key" or the "answer" or "the enlightenment" it seems our universe schrinks and like a piece of vaccumpacked meat we have lost our smell, our texture life blood and all sign of life, and become just another piece of meat on the shelf. This can happen very fast indeed, and does not have to take centuries or years. All that is nessesari is that we shift our ? to !
All that said. Just becourse a doctrine emerges as NEW does not make it the TRUTH. It seems that these days, becourse of the horrible oppressive and spiritually empovrished way the Churches act, people embrace any doctrine that shows just a little bit of spirituality. It is as if like a teen in rebellion people will run with any bad boy they can find as long as it takes them away from Church. I can certainly relate to that. However there is also such a thing as FALSE teaching and lies and deciet, people who abuse etc. (this is not talking about you Beth, your research sounds right on). Robert talked about wizzards using their aprentices to cast spells to avoid the neg results, and I am sure this attitude is rampant in new age circles as well as Churches.
Regards Mustardseed
PS If you ever was to make the Church of BETH, I would love to come hear you preach one day.
[;)]
Mustardseed,
Since you are being nice to me again, I will respond[:)] (That's really all I ask--be nice--even in disagreement!)
I really don't know much at all about masonry or covens. But I do know that I consider my own accumulation of knowledge to be on a basis of "earned levels of knowledge." The Hebrew Bible and NT, as well as other ancient Jewish midrash speaks often of esoteric knowledge being given by Shekinah or the Holy Spirit, or formally taught in esoteric schools, "in proportion to a person's capacity to understand." I admit from personal experience that a great deal of information has crossed my path in the past that I did not comprehend until much later. I assume that at that time--I did not have the capacity to understand it. Later however, I would gain that capacity. There are also the frequent biblical references to "having the ears to hear and the eyes to see." I think this too pertains to a person's ability to understand certain things. Much like--when the student is ready the teacher will appear--or perhaps--when the student is ready the knowledge will become clear. Perhaps the masons, etc., "model" their awarding of different levels of esoteric knowledge by these same standards.
I live my life as though the guiding force of my own "meritorious achievements of understanding" is the Holy Spirit. I also know what when I am "not so smart" and do stupid things that it is the same Holy Spirit that more often than not "chastises me." There is still so much that I do not understand, and God willing, I will continue to develop my capacity to understand more and more.
As to the Church of Beth--Please GOD NO![:O] My research and all that I speak of actually raises a lot more questions than it actually provides solid answers, e.g., after the names are translated and the stories allegorized, what then? What do the hidden layers of meaning have to say--and how many different ways can they be interpreted? I am a long way from being able to answer these questions, but, I suspect that these answers too will lead to even more questions. But for the record--my name in Hebrew does mean "house" and is translated for example as the "House of God" in the proper place name "Bethel"<tee-hee>--but on an actual personal note, my full name "Elizabeth" means "oath to God" and I pray that my actions will, more often than not, always reflect this Hebrew meaning of my name.
Peace,
Beth
p.s. I really hope Mustardseed that our dialogue stays "nice and friendly."
In my opinion I am fasinated in the occult,but I myself am only intrested in reading about it and talking to others about it..
I do how ever read tarot cards(well I am learning),I don't think that is evil..
But as far as magick spells and things ogf that nature if someone has a good heart(it will be used for good) if they have a black heart(it of course will be used for evil means)
To me it depends on the person who is using their powers,spells..etc..
I agree with most of the above posts.
The old 'is the occult evil' question is flawed since we need to define what 'occult' means.
As said, 'occult' means 'secret or hidden knowledge'.
However, it is a sad fact that most people don't actually know this, esp. as the name has been blackened by church propoganda so that occultism = 'satanism'.
A foolish interpretation but one that is widespread in the media and tv shows etc.
Actually, I would not equate satanism as being occult as there is no 'secret knowledge' being imparted. In fact satanic philosophy, if you go to LeVay's 'church of satan' website for example, is quite straightforward and is not quite what it is made out to be by the church.
For example, satanists view the christian image of 'satan' as a metaphor or symbol for individulism, which is their highest ideal, and by venerating images of satan you are reinforcing this metaphor in your own life.
The philosphy can be summed up as 'no one is going to look after you but yourself', 'look after number one' etc.
In fact satanist philosophy is just promoting modern *unrestrained* capitalist ideals, the only difference is that it celebrates individulism and personal gain and doesnt try to deny this reality in any way.
If you actually talk to any satanists you will be hard pressed to find any that *actually believe* in a horned devil figure who sits in hell with a trident; they view him as a metaphorical concept of a human ideal.
For the record, I am not a satanist and i do not support their views or those of *unrestrained* capitalist society, which satanism represents, but at least I did go and educate myself as to what satanists are about and I understand where they are coming from.
But no, there is nothing esoteric or 'hidden' about their philosophy, so satanism is not 'occult'.
Douglas
The occult studies is not negative. It is what the individual partakes in that makes it positive or negative. For examp. aleister crowley purely evil teachings compared to let say HP Blavatsky, count st. germain etc.. Where you'll see one feed the ego full of pride/lust and do rituals to strengthen them or the exact opposite. The easiest way to verify how far on the path they made it is to call upon them in the astral "to directly verify". IF they come and have there solar bodies developed then they were good. "in the sence of good and evil" which is purely objective. Just one was doing what they were suppose to be doing the other falls back on to the wheel.
quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
... we need to define what 'occult' means.
We also need to define what evil means as I am finding this concept difficult to grasp. It seems rather relative.
Evil is ignorance of the truth.
I dont know if it would, in my opinion, be ignorance of the truth, so much as acting in ignorance of truth.
Of course, evil is so many different things to different people.
Perhaps evil is just associated madness.
Or inevitable necessity
or perhaps it is only pointless violence
or perhaps it is unthoughtful actions towards one another
or perhaps it is the weeds that we kill in the garden
or the unconcious need to control overpopulation by murder, abortion, suicide, drug use, religious preference, sterilization, political control, masochism and sadism, and/or "civilized society."
or perhaps it is the republicans
or perhaps it is the democrats
or perhaps it is democracy itself
or money....is it money?
Is it greed?
Is it definable by human comprehension? Should we even try?
Somebody just posted that Aleister Crowely was 'evil'... this is crap. He was a genius, it helps if you actually try to get where he is coming from; yes he promoted individulism, just as modern capitalist society does, but I don't think that it comes from 'satan'! It is also the case that he had a warped sense of humour and liked to enrage christians by coming out with provocative statements (which is fine by me!).
He is probably the single most influential and important magickal/occult practitioner and theorist of the 20th century.
However he didnt suffer fools gladly and that included conservative christians.
Asked about the consequences of manipulating huge amounts of power/energy around the place, he responded by stating that
'by the time a magician has amassed enough knowledge to be dangerous in any way, he will then be too wise to ever dare use it.'
That is not someone who is 'evil'.
Douglas
Hey, how many of you think the occult is evil and how many actually engage in occult practices?
I think it is humorous that some Christians are more concerned with terminology than substance.
I didn't think reiki had anything to do with Christianity at all! As for the occult being EEEEEVVVIIILLL, well, that's sort of a broad question, especially considering that Evil can't even be defined properly. And then considering that Universal Providence doesn't look at things in shades of Good and Evil, that complicates it even more. The occult, the way i like to look at at (and i told my mother this the past weekend) is "How the Universe Works beyond what Religion tells You." Not evil persay, but yes, you will have to understand the Negative along with the Positive. That's just how it works.
please don't get hung up on terms like 'white magick' vs 'black magick'. They are all the same thing.. channeling own's own innate abilities to connect with the universe. This ability is a tool, a powerful tool but a tool non the less.
Mustardseed is wrong. Yes it can have negative consequences but that does not mean the tool is wrong.
Christians use 'spells' as well. They pray to their god for some desired effect. While they insist this is 'better' somehow since it appeals to their god instead of their own innate ability, this is just a point of view, they feel it justifies the concept of using a higher power to achieve an end. Both approaches have the same end result however. (although christianity, like any religion is self justifying)
Some christians pray to smite their enemies etc. this is wrong, however this does not mean that praying is wrong.
Some magicicians use magick for selfish reason, this does not make magick wrong.
The difference is only in the mind of the christian; for those christians, that is up to them, for the rest of us, dont worry about it, but remember that like any powerful tool, you can end up shooting yourself (or others) in the foot if you dont know what you are doing.
Douglas
PS as for that book review that Runlola quoted... that was the biggest pile of crap I've read in a long time!
Quoteplease don't get hung up on terms like 'white magick' vs 'black magick'. They are all the same thing.. channeling own's own innate abilities to connect with the universe. This ability is a tool, a powerful tool but a tool non the less.
Well, i mostly agree with this Gandalf. Summoning an Angel vs. summoning a Demon is no different than adjusting the name, Godrune, and sphere of influence. They are BOTH creations of Divine Providence, and serve a distinct purpose. (not that i have summoned either ritually, but i understand the underlying concepts to an extent).
QuoteChristians use 'spells' as well. They pray to their god for some desired effect. While they insist this is 'better' somehow since it appeals to their god instead of their own innate ability, this is just a point of view, they feel it justifies the concept of using a higher power to achieve an end. Both approaches have the same end result however. (although christianity, like any religion is self justifying)
Some christians pray to smite their enemies etc. this is wrong, however this does not mean that praying is wrong.
Some magicicians use magick for selfish reason, this does not make magick wrong.
The difference is only in the mind of the christian; for those christians, that is up to them, for the rest of us, dont worry about it, but remember that like any powerful tool, you can end up shooting yourself (or others) in the foot if you dont know what you are doing.
I wholeheartedly agree. Magic is a tool, prayer is a tool, and PRAYER is a form of magic, although Christians (whom i was raised presbyterian) will deny with a vengeance. I like to think of it in terms like this:
Everything is ENERGY. Manipulating energy is the act of magic. And like there are different kinds of energy (kinetic, spiritual, heat, gravity, thought, electric, chemical, etc.) different schools of magic and thought over the eons have the desired effect on your area of intention. It takes multiple lives to master anything, like Bach and his music. THAT WAS MAGIC in a sense; from an astral standpoint, he had to practice a long time to show how it could be done. But i'm no master, i'm still learning, i can always be shown new thought patterns and paths i never anticipated. Yet another reason why i love these forums, such brilliant and yearning minds, more so than people i meet in the flesh (unfortunately)
Occult just means 'hidden knowledge'. There's nothing evil about that.
I just wanted to say that I am so excited to be on this forum I could shriek! And my answer to the original question would be, um...no. I don't believe in "evil" per say. But anyway...I am so glad to have found this place, did I mention I could shriek! :wink: :D
runlola...that is seriously frightening. It is beyond me how people can be so close minded. She did sound pretty serious...frighteningly serious. (shudder)
And I wholeheartedly agree as well. :lol:
I am so glad to have found intelligent people to talk to!!!!!
Occult just means hidden knowledge, there is nothing evil about secrets or lost knowledge. It is only how things are used.
I will admit that often, secrets often used for evil would probably be made occult. The good would want to keep it from people because it's dangerous. The evil would want to keep it from others because it's competition, and would reveal it only to servants they know they could manage, very slowly.
That's likely how 'occult' came to be affiliated with darkness,
The Occult practices being labeled evil came from none other than the Catholic church... who discovered that it wasn't good business to encourage a personal relationship with the universe in their clients... i mean cult...er.. I meant devotees... yeah.. that's right
I dont accept this. yes the catholic church equate 'occult' with 'evil' but then so do all branches of christianity, with protestantism being no different. Its sad that yet another debate has been subverted to once again attack the catholic church. As I have said before, I am not christian so I dont have a factional agenda here, but i find the whole protesent/catholic antagonism extremelly tiresome.
What annoys me even more is when I read some artcle which pretends to be an objective and critical discussion of christianity in general, only to find that the article has a secret agenda and is actually a protestant attack on catholism, a tediously common occurance, esp in the US.
Douglas
I fully agree with you. Not that I don't approve of the Christian sects squabbling with each other (sure makes my life easier...) but it is rather ridiculous. The difference between Protestants and Catholics to me only seems to be that Catholics have a lot more rituals, and honour Mary and the Saints. I'd very much like to honour Mary sometime, she seems like a wonderful girl, and the Saints have done a lot of things so while you shouldn't perhaps worship them, praying to them for specific things might not be altogether bad. As long as one doesn't do it more than Jesus, perhaps pray to both at the same time, just so they don't think you're trying to pray just to the Saints?
just thought i'd mention before someone else does that what i said above may sound rich coming from where I live, as Scotland has quite a bad reputation for sectarianism between proddies and cathies (of course nothing like N. Ireland) but still quite bad, esp. on the east coast Glasgow area...Celtic vs Rangers anyone?
However I wnted to point out that I'm not part of that! :o
Doug
Hi Doug !
Hearts v Hibs, too..... I went to plenty of derby games when I lived in Dalkeith as a child, & I still remember the insults that flew past my "innocent" ears !
I fully agree with Tyciol's point...
QuoteOccult just means hidden knowledge, there is nothing evil about secrets or lost knowledge.
It all depends on where you stand - a practising christian may see the occult as evil, a non-practising christian may feel otherwise.
I'd hazard a guess that the majority of atheists could not care less, & would view it all as nonsense anyway.... ?
Please, define "occult."
Occult means hidden knowledge. There's nothing evil about hiding things that need to be hidden, or that naturally become 'hidden' because so few people are interested in it that it fades into obscurity.
Then I agree with Tyciol.
'Evil' and 'good' are human made concepts. Just as others asked "define evil" they have such a wide meaning and interpretation that each person perceives them different. Tarot and magick is no worse then astral projection and tk. In my view... the Gods gave us a gift... it would be unwise to reject it....
Blessed be!
If Occult means hidden knowledge, it is hard to discern whether you should delve into it or not. I think its hidden for a reason.
If you read the bible the tree of life in the garden of eden contained information that would set man equal to god. "Behold man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever." -Genesis 3:22
So basically, I interpret this as "If man kept his nose where it belonged then he would live blissfully unaware of the knowledge of good and evil, but he had to see what the fruit tasted like." From this point of view I would not do witchcraft or whatever. So know we know about the evil and all that mess.
Now on the other hand I am a firm believer in pure magick. If you got problems with demons and the devil bothering you, I think you got a right to protect yourself or others.
Like I said, its a tough one.
If you got problems with demons and the devil bothering you, I think you got a right to protect yourself or others.
What 'devil'? From your post i assume you are firmly fixed within the christian view of the universe... so by your world view i guess that any attempt to gain knoweledge of and use 'occult' knowledge (ie 'secret') is an 'evil' thing.
Thats why I dont accept the christian view of the world that you appear to.. I don't even believe in your 'devil'.
But I DO agree with you that there are certain parts of 'occult' ie secret knowledge that may be dangerous for those immature enough to handle it.. but this doesnt mean that the knowledge itself is 'bad' in any way, neither is the act of searching for it..
The issue is making sure there is a good system for those looking into it.. a controled release of info, catered and limited for the particlular stage that the seeker/magician is at... this is where all the secret magickal societies come in and other secret orders.
The church may be right in thinking that just having all this info available to everyone might be harmful, but unfortunatly, they are just as ignorant about the proper meaning of 'occult' knowledge as the people they are trying to 'protect'. So i wouldnt go by their recomendations... but yes, i guess they do perform as service in keeping the 'plebs' out as it were :wink: Its like giving a stone age man a nuclear reactor... could be useful but he's more likely to blow himsefl up with it!
Occult means Secret Science. Back in the day herbalists were called witches, because they knew about the psychedelic effects of certain plants. The neighboring Christians back in the day were very ignorant, and thus made false accusations based on superstitious beliefs. Now-a-days people are better educated.
You want to know what's really evil, ignorance is. There's a difference between stupid and ignorance. Stupid is, you know better but you don't apply. Ignorance, you simply don't know any better. And usually not knowing about something can be painful and sometimes deadly. Since most people identify evil with something painful, ignorance would sum up the root of all evil.
So in regards to Occult being Evil, totally wrong. It is a secret science because mainstream view is ignorant towards it. The best way to overcome this is thru Proper Understanding, training in the ways of Wisdom. Ask, Seek, Knock.
I try to tell my mother about the definition of occult as "hidden knowledge". She's a deeply spiritual and religious person (not fanatically by any means) but the word "occult" to her ear has become synonymous with "black magic." This is an unfortunate side-effect of religion brainwashing her, although Christianity has given her strengths in many other ways. I've had to refrain from telling her too much about the true nature of God and Existence as i've come to understand it, because it deals very much with an intangible spirit world, and on some level that concept frightens her, thus she chooses not to understand it. My whole motivation came from a deep urge for just the opposite: to understand as much as i could. It takes quite a few lifetimes to master it.
QuoteYou want to know what's really evil, ignorance is. There's a difference between stupid and ignorance. Stupid is, you know better but you don't apply. Ignorance, you simply don't know any better. And usually not knowing about something can be painful and sometimes deadly. Since most people identify evil with something painful, ignorance would sum up the root of all evil.
So by your definition, if i coolly; calmly reflected upon a decision such as cold blooded murder (which i might add would be considered evil by many), then it would not be evil by your standards? :?:
Not that i even believe in right or wrong, good or evil, its all subjective i don't even bother with it. You can do destructive things or creative things, you can help people or harm people, but each is necessary.
As for the occult being evil, if you read what i wrote of course i don't think its evil. Some people choose to work for themselves, some choose to work for others, and some just don't care.
Quote from: narfellusI try to tell my mother about the definition of occult as "hidden knowledge". She's a deeply spiritual and religious person (not fanatically by any means) but the word "occult" to her ear has become synonymous with "black magic." This is an unfortunate side-effect of religion brainwashing her, although Christianity has given her strengths in many other ways. I've had to refrain from telling her too much about the true nature of God and Existence as i've come to understand it, because it deals very much with an intangible spirit world, and on some level that concept frightens her, thus she chooses not to understand it. My whole motivation came from a deep urge for just the opposite: to understand as much as i could. It takes quite a few lifetimes to master it.
Ditto. You want to make them understand, but when you try reading them the Satanic Bible they just cover their ears and go 'la la la I am not lis-ten-ing'.
Doesn't it suck how they can put as many crucifixes and Marys (despite us not being catholic) as they want, but if we want to put up a Baphomet or a Star of David they freak out?
evil? let's go back to purposivism... what's your purpose of using a spell/magic/ritual whatever... whether your a christian or satanist or atheist or whatever, the outcome of your action is what we judge as evil or good