Is suicide a forgiveable sin???

[beavis]

I forgive everybody who has ever, is doing, or will suicide. End of thread. Obviously suicide is forgivable because it has just been done.

[Mustardseed]

Sorry Beavis I should have clarified. I made this statement to the Christians on the thread. (The forum is Modern Christianity as you will notice), and many Churches believe it is not forgivable. This attitude brings a lot of pain to the ones left behind and it was my intention to open the point from a scriptural viewpoint focussing on Christians.
Regards Mustardseed

[Narrow Path]

I agree that wanting to commit suicide can be an indication of mental and spiritual illness and it is hell in itself, the desire to harm oneself. Jesus loves all and He is the great Physician so why would He send to eternal hell those who are sick? Some people commit suicide in times of great stress, like those who jumped off out of the WTC and I also think about those who may commit suicide for other reasons, say, for example, the person who may give up his or her own life to save another's life like someone who may go in to rescue another with full knowledge that he or she will probably not make it. I believe that God knows the motives of all hearts but that any hell that may be suffered will result in the eventual restoration of all to Himself. God is love. God bless.

[Mustardseed]

well said NP

[James S]

quote:Posted by Narrow Path:
and I also think about those who may commit suicide for other reasons, say, for example, the person who may give up his or her own life to save another's life like someone who may go in to rescue another with full knowledge that he or she will probably not make it.

I see this more as a case of self sacrifice that suicide. Suicide is a very selfish act, while self sacrifice to save another is possibly the most selfless and noble act anyone can perform.

Getting back to suicide, I too have heard ministers saying it is not forgivable, that someone who commits suicide cannot enter into heaven. To give an argument on both sides here - who are these ministers to presume that God puts such a condition on his forgiveness?

On the other side it seems that the problem with suiciders is not so much God being able to forgive them, but they being able to forgive themselves. From accounts I have heard of people being rescued from being trapped in their own "prisons" in the astral, it seems that when a lot of people commit suicide, all they end up doing is setting themselves in a more or less endless loop of despair and depression. The despair that they felt in the physical gets carried with them into the astral, and they effectively become a prisoner of it, unable to break free unless they can be "rescued"

Rescues do happen. Do a search on "rescue" and have a look at what either Frank or Ginny have posted about this, as it seems there are beings in the astral that can ask for the help of experienced astral projectors to go and help people trapped in prisons of their own terror or despair. Once freed, these souls are able to move on.

Mustardseed,
Just on a side issue here a question about one of your comments -
"The only sin that cannot be forgiven is to sin against the Holy Spirit (by not accepting the sacrifice on the cross)."

I do not feel my studies of the bible to be as extensive as yours, but that is not what the bible actually says, and it seems to me to be a very loose interpretation. The actual words are:

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme
:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

In every study I've seen put forward on these verses, this "blasphemy" seems to be something pretty much reserved for the devil and his minions, and humans aren't actually able to do this. I may be wrong here, but I've never heard it used in reference to not accepting the Holy Spirit. It could be argued that our understanding of what is involved here is too limited for our lack of acceptance to be held against us.

Just an opinion,
James.

[beavis]

"Some people commit suicide in times of great stress, like those who jumped off out of the WTC"

No stress is necessary there. It was very logical to jump out of the WTC. They avoided the worse state of being half dead for a few minutes while the building was destroyed.

[kakkarot]

suicide is a sin? says who?[|)]

~kakkarot

[Dark Knight]

Growing up as a Catholic I was taught there were Cardinal (God please let the spelling be right, 4th grade was a long time ago) sins and Venial sins. Venial sins were things like stealing chewing gum from the corner store and Cardinal sins were things like, well, murder.

Suicide was a Cardinal sin, very serious, but not unforgivable (big change from the old days where you couldn't receive your final rites as a Catholic or be buried in a Catholic cemetary...or thought of as being unable to enter heaven...lost in purgatory). I was always taught that it is impossible for there to be a sin that was not forgivable...to do so would declare that evil could defeat God.

Did that mean you were never punished? No, sinners are held accountable for their actions, but not so far as to be pushed outside of creation (which a lack of forgiveness was thought to create). To not forgive was to no longer see a sinner as part of creation, to be welcomed back with open loving arms. Impossible.

Even then Cardinal sins were seperated into various categories according to degree of personal responsiblity. Lately, suicide has been a very forgivable act because the person was deemed too ill mentally and spiritually to have made any other rational choice.

[Mustardseed]

James
To blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is indeed very commonly believed to be rejecting the sacrifice on the Cross. It is believed that accepting the same is an act of God actually, and that it is the Spirit of God (HS) who brings people to a repentance of their failings. One thing that I remember Robert wrote in his book was how he noticed people being "lightened in their load" when they found out that they were being attacked by negs. Like they had gone around and had to live with the thought it was them and their own doings. This realization and the consequent "lightening of the Load" is similar to the feeling of "being saved" . Like all life you have borne a heavy burden and finally takes the load off and it makes people quite giddy and ecstatic. Thus many are frantically running around trying to take the load off the shoulders of everyone else and are being met with anger and resentment cause folks think they are trying to steal from them. Funny allegory, (or whatever it is called.)

About Sins being brought over into the astral I am sure this is true. People make their own Hell. Further more I am now gonna make a spectacle of myself and alienate most of the Christians on the Forum with this next statement. Ready..........

It is my belief that people can get Saved and enter union with God through Jesus after their physical body is dead. It is a very obscure doctrinally provable point. Jesus himself went to the nether world (low astral Regions) and preached to the Spirits in prison. It seems that this doctrine was mainstream in early Christianity. However this is to the Church ABSOLUTE HERESY and anyone preaching this will immediately be thrown out of any church they might attend. The Church exercises their entire control on FEAR OF JUDGEMENT. People get saved as an insurance policy and rather than coming to God to Love Him they come to Him so he can do stuf for them. Again I am not including all the Scriptural References but I could if anyone cares. Ok Guys go ahead now ......shoot me[]

Worried Mustardseed

[James S]

Someone pass the man a bullet-proof vest (and me too perhaps). I gotta agree with you on that last point![^]

My ex's brother gave his heart to the lord at a young age then proceeded to see how many commandments he can break. But in his mind he won't go to hell coz he's been SAVED!!! Its a more extreme example of your point about the "insurance policy".

In my time as a christian I could never reject in any way the concept that even after you died, God was still going to make every effort and give you every chance at eternal salvation. It made no sense to me whatsoever that God would put an expiry date on his offer.

Regards,
James.

[Beth]

Hey everyone,

Yes, timeless, sin is derived from the Greek word "hamartia" or "missing the mark."  In the common usage of the term, this would be like taking a bow and shooting an arrow toward a target--and then missing.

In the biblical sense, this is "missing the mark" of whatever the tradition had prescribed, i.e. failing to do so correctly. In the Hebrew Scriptures, this was of course the 10 commandments, as well as all the Levitical Laws.  

For the early Church Fathers, there were many kinds of everyday sins less serious than those in the 10 commandments (and btw all the Levitical Laws had pretty much gone out the window.)  These sins could range from just being lazy to being an moron--even just occasionally.  BUT, for the earliest Christians, the gravest of all sins was--believe it or not--ignorance.  There was no way that anyone could "hit the mark" of anything without reason/knowledge.  This reason/knowledge extended from intellectual reasoning to ethical reasoning. "Sin" came to be seen in many different manifestations, e.g., anything that was sophistry (a bunch of crap) to not loving one another.  

So, in the NT, it is redefined as "not believing" in Jesus.  Strictly speaking, this would be "not believing in salvation." In order to achieve "salvation" you had to have obtained on your own, "knowledge" of God.  This was not something that could be given to you without experience. This was a very personal knowledge that only each individual could obtain for themselves, but first they must strive to "hit the mark" in everything else that they did.

So, in order to avoid missing the mark, you had to put forth every effort "to hit the mark."

Peace []
Beth

[Beth]

As for suicide, I may as well jump in here too, but I will readily admit that I do not know for sure.  

I guess it would be up to the individual and between the individual and their God.  In my way of thinking though, if somebody did commit suicide, and it did ultimately prove to be "a sin" then they would just have to come back and try again.

Peace,
Beth

[greatoutdoors]

If you take your life in a moment of dispair, then maybe you are buying into just more misery "over there", depending on whether karma is real or not. But what about those who choose suicide rather than a lingering death from illness? Or those who just believe they have lived as long as they want to -- not a spur of the moment decision but one made perhaps years before the person decides that the time has come to "execute the plan". What do Buddists believe about suicide? Are we here to learn some lesson from this life? And if that's so, and we think we have learned it, then will you still have to carry baggage if you pull the plug? Any clarification on this one will be appreciated!

[exothen]

I am not sure where I stand on this suicide issue, but here is something else to chew on:

"The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself kills all men. As far as he is concerned, he wipes out the world." (G. K. Chesterton)

Maybe that is where suicide could be considered a great sin.  Really, this is where I trust God will deal with these people justly.

Mustardseed,

quote:It is my belief that people can get Saved and enter union with God through Jesus after their physical body is dead. It is a very obscure doctrinally provable point....Ok Guys go ahead now ......shoot me.

Ok, I'll shoot first.[]  Not only is it a "very obscure doctrinally provable point," it's an impossible point to prove because it is nowhere to be found.

Heb. 10:27-28, "27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Verse 27 shows that once dead, it's game over; you face judgement for your actions.  I threw verse 28 in there for free just because it's good.

timeless,

quote: A person in this situation should be able to chose a peaceful end with dignity and family present.

I think there is more dignity in going to the end than ending things early.  Doctors should be charged with murder for helping patients die.

[Tab]

Actually, I believe Vatican II officially vetoed the "suicide = ticket to hell", claiming that anyone committing the act must be mentally unstable and thus not responsible for their actions.
Aside from that, why would such a wonderful loving God abandon a poor soul so lonely and depressed as to commit suicide. So sad. What a mean deity. He should be ashamed.

[Mustardseed]

Well Ok I will try to explain. First of all lets just agree to not get emotionally charged about this. I am not calling anybody a lier I am not making this a cardinal point. I believe in Jesus and that folks will have a better and fuller life here if they do recieve him in this life.

My reflection have been about certain verses. it says "your mercy is from everlasting to everlasting" "this is the light that lighted every man that comes into this world""I am not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to a knowledge of salvation" . I am reasoning that the God I believe in is all mercifull all loving and all forgiving. This is my knowledge of Him. If we take the classical "little boy out in the jungle" or the "little white kid in the trailer park" who has seen nothing but hypocritical church people or missionaries , who maybe has been even abused and as a result rejects their God. What if they get hit by a car or bit by a snake????would it be fair that this little kid would end up in hell for rejecting Salvation (as it was shown to him) and the very people who led him into hate and resentment through their evil selfish deeds gets to go to Heaven. That is NOT my understanding of God and his mercy, and those kids are out there!!!!

There are 3 meanings of grave in the bible hades sheol and gehenna and it is obvious that there is such a thing as the "unseen state", where the spirits are "living" until the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. This being way later than the return of Jesus and the end of the mellenium 1000 years. I believe that until then they still learn Jesus still has mercy and people can still pray. It is true that it is appointed for man once to die, and after this (the spirit world??) the judgement. Remember there is no time as we know it there. Jesus did preach to the Spirits in prison while he was in the grave (the unseen state) so it seems that it is at least possible for folks to learn there and move on.

Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

I believe it is. There are several indications that this might be the case. It is a lack of faith in Gods ability to work things out , it is a cop out and displeasing but seems not to be unforgivable. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is to sin against the Holy Spirit (by not accepting the sacrifice on the cross)This is according to Bible doctrine. However even this represents a problem and is thought provoking, becourse who is then to say that a person will not in the future come to a realisation of Faith in Jesus. Paul actually killed the followers of Jesus before his conversion.If that could be theorised it is then not up to anyone to judge and condemn seeing we could all be brothers and sisters in the future. Who is and who is not saved is none of our buisness, in a sense, and should have a very small part of our life. Beding a sample of LOVE, to the unbelievers, (sorry guys no offence) should be the major part of life. About suicide it is even theorised that Judas (who committed suicide was saved) why not!!Betrayel has nothing to do with it either. Peter also betrayed him but did not commit suiside. In the OT there are numerous occations of taking ones own life, Jonathan Saul etc
Regards Mustardseed