Not too sure about those "Christian Mormons" you speak of, but I dont consider Mormons Christian. Christianity started out 2000 years ago, and the Mormon beliefs are radically different than Christian beliefs. They call themselves Christian, but I (not being a Mormon) say they aren't. They believe God is "flesh and blood" and a lot of other clearly anti-Christian things. As far as I know, they're the only religion that believes that God is "flesh and blood".
However, the Trinity is a triune God, with Jesus being the second person. Jesus was all man and all God, a Mystery in itself. Therefore, He did have "flesh and blood" and shed a lot of it for us. Thus, one could make an argument...
But anyway, Mormons believe that they will become like God after they die. This is anti-Christian. Christians believe (and it's backed up in the Bible, my non-Catholic brothers and sisters) that God is sooo far above us mortal humans. I mean, geeze, the first sin in the Garden of Eden was Adam and Eve trying to be like God by eating the fruit.
Trying to find out others views, so Im not trying to get into a debate, though I dont disagree with you, some of the information is misconstrued.
LDS actually believe that God was once Human and that humans can potentially attain that level. They also believe that when they die, they go to one of three heavens. The first is Celestial which is for the true devout mormons who have not sinned and are completely clean. The second is terestial which is for those who are not completely of the LDS faith and have done wrong but repented or whatever, and the third is the telestial which goes for all those who are not mormon and have not a clean slate.
There is also the spiritual prison for those souls redeemable in "Gods" eyes,
and hell is reserved for that menial amount of souls who cannot find redemption.
Also a big difference between the two is that Joseph Smith, though containing quite a few discrepincies between the book of mormon and Doctrines and Covenants, recites the plural of God, meaning more than, rather than the monothiastic(Is that the right word?), one God.
Sorry, just wanted to clear that up.
I have a feeling that you are going to get quite a few stirn remarks on this thread. Goes with the territory I guess. I find it quite interesting how all those who know the "most" about being mormon, are in fact not mormon. The largest mistake that people unfamiliar with Mormonism make is that they worship Joseph Smith. In reality they simply see him as a modern day prophet. A Christian is someone who believes in Christ. The LDS church starts with The Church of Jesus Christ... what more can be said about that? As for the flesh and blood aspect of it all, there is no record of God having lived in the flesh. The doctrines refer to Christ. They believe that Christ created the universe and the world in accordance to the will of God, and then it was He who lived in the flesh. Was Christ not God in the flesh? Lastly, Mormons don't necissarily believe they will become like God when they die because of the church they belong to. They believe in eternal progression, which means that even after death we continue to learn and grow in knowledge and capabilities. They believe it's possible at some point in the eternal scheme of things that we may have the same powers and knowledge as God does now. But He (with Christ) will always have infinite more knowledge and capabilities then us because He too is continuing to progress. That is not anti-Christian, because at no time during all of this does Christ stop being our Lord. It would take me hours to explain in detail all that can be said about this, but I'm sure there will be many more posts refuting what I have said, and me refuting them back, so I guess we have all the time in the world. Not every Mormon thinks of one mind. You can speak to individuals in the church and they will tell you different things they believe about their own religion. The same can be said of any Christian. You can't take what one person says and assume it's the same thought as every other person in the church. In conclusion I would just like to say this. Would you go to a debate without knowing much about what you are debating about? If the debate was on the book War and Peace, would you go to it without reading War and Peace? The same can be said of the LDS religion. Understand it's doctrines before you tear them apart (not saying anyone did, but I'm sure someone will eventually), otherwise you're much more likely to take them completely out of context. Whew!
Im not defending either religion. I just wanted to know what people thought.
1) I never said mormons believe they will become God, I said that because of their belief in the histories such as the book of mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, it is believed by many LDS that they have the potential to become, yes, "God-like."
2) Worship is seen in many aspects, and because of Joseph Smiths little imposture, he was in fact reveered and by many worshipped AS a prophet, though many in the church must conceed to the fact that he was a false prophet being that there are so many discrepincies between his own writings and over sixty of his prophecies having yet to be fullfilled (And unable to be mind you because dates were given).
3) Because one is not mormon does not mean they are unable to aquire knowledge on the topic.
Perle, pleasaunte to prynces paye
To clanly clos in golde so clere
Oute of oryent, I hardyly saye,
Ne proued I never her precios pere
Also, I did point out, and it is widely known of the church branching out in different directions. This should be proof against me ever attempting to pursuade one that the mormons think of one mind.
In fact, I would have to say, they are the most divided of any religion.
quote:
Just wondering what you christians or other think about the LDS church comparing themselves to current day christians and even some who have branched off calling themself "The christian mormons" or "Church of the Latter Day."
I think that it contradicts Joseph Smith's own testimony of his meeting with God in that God said JS shouldn't join any church because they are all corrupt. Mormonism used to stay away from being aligned with mainstream Christianity and now they are fighting for recognition as Christians.
Are they Christians? No. They are heretics.
Does anyone else here find it ironic, if not somewhat amusing, when one brand of Chritianity opposes another brand, calls them heretics or says they're just plain wrong?
[:)]
James.
HELL YES I DO! It's like siblings fighting!
Actually it is their own opinion. What is wrong with this?
You are now insulting their point of view and calling it potentially stupid.
Passion can cloud understanding, so please do not allow anothers insight to assemble ignorance.
Religions, historically, have always been at odds with one another, at least for the most part. That doesnt mean it is or should be different here.
Exothen actually brings up a good point in pointing out Smiths contradiction.
Calling them heretics may be a bit extreme, at least for some, but to others it does make sense.
The LDS are another system of rules, just like most other religions, which attempt to close the gap between man and god, though quite haphazardly I might add.
When fact is confused with fiction, but the person stating fiction testifies to it as fact, then it is stupid. Passion does intensify emotions, especially anger. Probably something I should strive to control more. But to say that because I am Mormon I am not only non-Christian but also a heretic... I think that gives me foundation to react in anger. Opinion or not, what gives someone else the right to tell me what I do and don't believe about my religion? I'm not an active Mormon, haven't been to church in years, for my own reasons. But I know basically all there is to know about it, and see quite clearly when someone doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Does it make me angry? Why wouldn't it? I'll do my best to not let it get the best of me. But I'm accustomed to the hate and sheer ignorance that people have towards the LDS church. It can be quite easy to get angry when someone who knows literally nothing right about the religion claims to know it all. Calling The Chuch of Jesus Christ not christian? It's like saying the US military has nothing to do with the US. Forgive me for letting off some steam. How does the old proverd go... "Do not cast your pearls in front of swine"? Guess it would be best for me to follow that sound advice.
Understandable.
I apologize if you have been offended in anyway, but again people have a right to what they think, and it is hard for many to distinguish fact between fiction when so many argue of what the two are.
I must say I am personally bias because I have lived in Utah, specifically Salt Lake City, and have seen how much the church has their hands in within the state.
Though I am also bias against religion period, I have more connection to sentiments toward LDS because of the reason stated.
It is appropriate for people to bring up the topics though in evidence of certain ignorance, some must have different points of view to enlighten others.
There are many posts which anger me, and it takes a suitable amount of control to not lash out at those posts, and I must admit to giving in to those passions once in awhile, but hey, we're human.
I want to point out to, because you may have the knowledge you have learned, it does not mean you have all the information there is to know about the subject.
I too have to readily admit when I lack information or have the knowledge to a point, but never will I say I know all there is to know.
I do know a lot about the church, mostly because I have done research and talked to missionaries many many times, and have friends who are both mormon and jack-mormons, and visited the temple often (beautiful place), and yadda yadda yadda. It doesnt matter because I am not claiming to be all knowing, and I dont think many others are either.
again, I apologize if you were offened, it was not my intent, nor do I believe it was the intent of anyone else.
Chances are, on forums discussing such issues, there are bound to be conversations that stir feelings very deep. Just expect them is all.
James,
quote:
Does anyone else here find it ironic, if not somewhat amusing, when one brand of Chritianity opposes another brand, calls them heretics or says they're just plain wrong?
Perhaps you missed the part in my post where I mentioned how the Mormons initially believed all Christians to be apostates yet they now are trying to be accepted by the rest of Christianity. Perhaps I should get into the LDS Church's rejection of most of the foundational Christian beliefs.
The AlphaOmega,
quote:
But to say that because I am Mormon I am not only non-Christian but also a heretic... I think that gives me foundation to react in anger. Opinion or not, what gives someone else the right to tell me what I do and don't believe about my religion? I'm not an active Mormon, haven't been to church in years, for my own reasons.
I'm curious as to why you would consider yourself a Mormon or defend the Mormon church when you haven't been there in years. Does the Church still recognize you as a Mormon? You don't have to answer; I'll leave that between you and them. Just something to think about.
Didn't Joseph Smith himself claim that in his vision of the Father and the Son, he asked which church he should join and he was told to join none of them because they were all wrong? Yet you are angry because I stated that Mormons are not Christians. You have just helped prove my point regarding the inconsistency in that teaching.
Don't Mormons consider the rest of "Christendom" heretics and non-Christians? If they don't, then Mormons no longer believe what Joseph Smith, and those who came after him, taught. If they do, then why are you angry? Certainly you don't believe that the LDS church and the rest of Christianity have the same beilefs? We cannot both be right.
If there is something I have said wrong as it pertains to Mormon beliefs, then please tell me.
quote:
But I'm accustomed to the hate and sheer ignorance that people have towards the LDS church.
I neither hate the LDS church nor am ignorant of it. I, too, have researched it for a few years and had many discussions with missionaries. But I admit I may be a little off since I haven't researched it for a year or so.
I actually would be interested in an intelligent, non-heated discussion about the differences and why I believe what I do about the Mormon church.
I see what you're geting at Exothen. What makes it so odd to me is, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, they make a point of using the same Bible as the other branches of Christianity. So confusing.
Arrgh...God save us from religion!
- James.
(personal opinion)
I think God WAS trying to save us from religion......
or perhaps Christ was....(shakes head)
one of the two....or...one of the...one?
James,
quote:
What makes it so odd to me is, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, they make a point of using the same Bible as the other branches of Christianity.
There you go, opening up a can of worms.[:)]
As far as I can remember, from the missionaries I've talked to, they use the KJV. The official church statement on the Bible is that it is the Word of God, as far as it is translated correctly (they believe it's been corrupted down through the ages). A former LDS apostle, Orson Pratt, stated that the Bible has been so corrupted that one cannot even trust one single verse to be correct.
But here we run into far more serious conradictions than the one stated earlier. The Book of Mormom (BoM) has hundreds of verses and even whole chapters (if I remember correctly) that are word-for-word from the KJV. If not one verse can be trusted from the Bible, why are there so many in the BoM?
And there's more. Joseph Smith supposedly translated the golden plates on which the BoM was written in some sort of reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics (I don't recall the exact terminology). So here are plates that are supposedly hundreds of years older than the KJV, with some ancient language which has never been found elsewhere, which when translated, have significant portions of the KJV. And to top it off, the existence of such plates cannot be verified; there is no evidence.
This really is the tip of the iceberg for problems with Mormonsim and why I cannot consider the BoM to be inspired and Joseph Smith a prophet of God.
quote:
Arrgh...God save us from religion!
0,
quote:
(personal opinion)
I think God WAS trying to save us from religion......
or perhaps Christ was....(shakes head)
one of the two....or...one of the...one?
I don't think God's intention is, or was, to save us from religion (an institution), but rather religiosity (a state of the heart which corrupts the institution).
The above is exactly why I argue so much for Christian Orthodoxy.
Jude 1:3, "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you
contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints."
Jude 1:24, "Now to
Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy."
In this verse, the reference to stumbling is "false teaching," the whole context of Jude. Jude starts off with the fact that there is one faith which was handed down and ends by appealing to God who is able to keep one from falling into error.
Is it all confusing? It seems that way at times, but that is the whole purpose of having orthodoxy, so one can distinguish Christianity from those who merely claim to be Christian; to distinguish heresy from orthodoxy. It may sound harsh, but we obviously cannot all be right.
(once again my own opinion)
Though I heed many morals and truths in most religions and even the mythos taken from them and what can come from them, I take no perception of the truth from quoted words from any bible.
If one believes that information they believe is relevant to the use of passages that is their choice, but it will never prove anything except that man is willing to cherish written doctrine scribed in the hand of the beautifully fallible human species.
I understand what your saying though, but my sight in history has a unique impression of the past. No orthodox religion or any religion is without error and I dont believe any religion to be right, nor wrong even.
I do however believe they are meant to exist for our benefit, whether it is to move beyond such ancient traditional margins or to be recieved of a truth.
That truth depends on the person, and it is the individual, not the mass, who defines their faith and where it is placed.
People quote the bible constantly. You know what that teaches me? That people have to turn to something written, transcribed, rescribed from hersay and then translated thousands of times in order to find peace within themselves.
Not to say that the bible, nor anyother is without intellect, sensitivity or meaning, but as a species I cannot(personally)see us transgressing our native coils by attaching ourselves so personally and spiritually, to something as simple as a book.
I have been told over and over as well, "But this is a book of God." Not merely a book, simple nor underestimated, but a written word of our God in Heaven.
no. No its not. Its a book, written by man, men, over a period of many years, in different points of views, in different perceptions of what happened to different people. It is us, the faulted human species who claim it to be the word of God and it is us, the faulted human who so revere that book that we have told ourselves through thousands of years, is a doctrine of Gods Law and the story of the lamb and the dragon.
As I said this is my opinion. I have a different relationship with God than you, and everyone else, as everyone else does than I. Neither more special than the other, but we must continue to comprehend ourselves and that which we have grown up around, in order to understand our own beliefs. I am comfortable with that, and I know you probably didnt reply with that info so that I could respond with such passion, but hey, it happens right?
I dont agree with the LDS church nor its branches, but I do respect their right to believe whatever they want, even in the midst of undisputable evidence of Smith being a false prophet, just as I respect any Christian, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Shintoist, Hindu, Buddhist, or Satanist though I also dont agree with them.
I know many people who tell me they believe because in their heart they know. Well its the same in my case.
I know in my heart that every religion will find their conclusion in some way or another, but it will not be the way they percieved it to happen.
In my heart, I know all those who place their faith so deeply within the bible alone, will not find the salvation they so dearly seek. I dont need to find information on the internet nor research books or survery people to know this. It just is for me.
My own however comes at a different price, a different time, for a different reason, and those who expect people to bow to "Their" god, for their reasons, will find only letdown.
We are not meant to exist to be the same person, nor have the same belief, and Im sure most people here understand and appreciate that as well.
Sorry, that was a long tangent and I apologize. Just needed to get it off my chest since this topic is here.
Just wondering what you christians or other think about the LDS church comparing themselves to current day christians and even some who have branched off calling themself "The christian mormons" or "Church of the Latter Day."