Muhammad....A true Saint!

[MJ-12]

vc

[Narrow Path]

Check out the links. It explains much.

[Narrow Path]

What you have to ask yourself is if Jesus was ever accused of sex with a nine year old? Or any other sin for that matter.

[Tab]

Lot had sex with his two daughters. Noah got tinkle drunk. Abraham pimped Sarah to get riches from pharaoh. Hey good job patriarchs.

Aside from that the site's name is christianforums.net. HELLO BIAS.

Reading the subject title I actually thought you were being reasonable for once and admitting that other religions hold their own validity. Besides, you guys all come from Abraham, you should be buddies or something.

[Narrow Path]

Tab,

I never said that the OT prophets were perfect. Jesus is the only One who was.

That is the point here.

And Muhammad is no exception.

[Tab]

So why is it you accept these prophets even with their downfalls and yet you do not accept Mohammed, a prophet. Even the Muslims reguard him as a prophet, they don't make any outrageous messianic claims that I'm aware of.

[Mohamed]

"Muhammad and the beating of women"

This is where a lot of people misunderstand Islam.  Men are never aloud to abuse women, this is strictly forbidden!  What is aloud, though, is that a man can, only if his wife does something that is bad, tap her hand opposite the palm.  This is to make her feel humiliated for the wrong she did.

Also, do not think that Men are superior in Islam.  On the contrary, Women seem to have more property rights.  In a divorce women get a certain percentage of the mans property (this is where algebra was created).  There is an entire chapter devoted to women in the Qur'an; I strongly suggest you read it before blabbing off on a topic which exceeds your knowledge.

"Muhammad and sex with a 9 year old"

This is a really desperate point to make.  I would first off like to mention that this was found in Hadiths, which usually can not be trusted.  Since Hadiths are never memorized people usually tamper with them, adding things in and replacing certain text (sort of like the Bible).

I know you will want an explanation, so I will give you one (but I will NOT say that Muhammad, a Prophet of God, did such a thing).  Truth be told, all cultures are different, here in America, marriage to a Cousin is out of the Question, but else where in the world it is done all the time.  Also, here in America, kissing a sibling on the lips is considered a form of incest, but elsewhere it is a normal thing to do.  During the 600's, marriage to young children was accepted and viewed as normal (in the Arabic Culture, I am not sure about else where, I will have to do some research).  Just because to you it seems abnormal, does not mean that to others it is also abnormal.  Such behavior still happens today, in fact it happened here in the USA, a 42 year old women married a 14 year old boy, so please, don't go ranting about things which you obviously don't understand.

"Muhammad and the murder of Asma bint Marwan"
"Muhammad and the torture and murder of Kinana"
"Muhammad and the murder of Abu Afak"

It is posts like these that make me laugh.  You post about something, yet you do not know who the Prophet was!  There was a Christian documentation about Prophet Muhammad that aired last year, I forget the title (I will try to find it), that clearly states that Muhammad was not a murderer and did not spread Islam by the sword.  Muhammad and the People of Islam had to defend themselves from the Meccans and in doing so ended up defeating them.  You really should learn more about Prophet Muhammad and his struggle to build up Islam.  Btw, I must mention, that a few of the Christians who made the documentary, actually converted to Islam before airing it.

"Was Muhammad a role model?"

This guy, Gary_Bee that you listen to so closely, does not know a thing about what he is talking about.

How can a Prophet not be a role model?  How can a Man who says, "Love thine neighbor, and love thine enemies," not be a role model?  How can a Man who says, "When at war, do not harm any innocent civilians, do not harm the Women and Children, and let not one green leaf fall from a tree," not be a role model?  How can a Man who with his great force entered Mecca, saw that the people of Mecca where afraid of him, left them alone and did not harm one of his enemies, not be a role model?  How can a man who cared for so many orphans not be a role model?  How can a man, with so much love in his heart for God and the Prophets of God not be a role model?  How can a man who refused others to bow to him, and constantly repeated that he is a man just as all others are and does not need special attention, not be a role model?  This list goes on forever.

I for one have two role models that I look up to, Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Jesus.  These are two Great men, with Golden hearts that extend to all of mankind; hearts that are filled with love of God the one and only.  If only I can be anywhere near these two great benevolent men, both of which I highly look up to, and read a great deal about them.

[James S]

Mohamed,

See, the thing here is all this info is on the internet, so it MUST be true. []

James.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by James S

Mohamed,

See, the thing here is all this info is on the internet, so it MUST be true. []

James.

Is this an extension to the statement, "It was on TV so it must be true"? HAHA

Nice post Mohamed.

[Gandalf]

Narrow-path's argument is on very dodgy ground.
In fact you can do the very same exercise with the bible using extracts that make out Jesus to be a very dodgy character indeed. I have one such essay somewhere if you want an example.

Such things prove nothing. Anyway, you have to remember that men like Jesus or Mohamed were very much men of their time, with different values than those of today. A lot of people can't see this as they view these people through a hazy cloud of mystisism.
btw in medieval Europe marriages frequently took place between adult men and 12 (approx) year old girls. The idea is that you can marry them off before they have a chance to ruin their chastity with someone else!
Your using modern moral codes to critisise medieval (or ancient) ones, which doesnt really wash imo.

Finaly, for your damning evidence your using information from these texts, which as we all know has been subject to all manner of changes and mistranslations. How do you know that Jesus or Mohamed REALLY did any of these things, how much do we REALLY know about these men, REALLY?

Douglas

[Narrow Path]

Gandalf,

Prove to me that Jesus did any wrong or that it was ever even mentioned.

Tab,

The accepting og the OT prophets message is the acceptance of JESUS. He is the Messiah. That is who I worship. Not the messengers.

[Tab]

quote:Originally posted by Narrow Path


The accepting og the OT prophets message is the acceptance of JESUS. He is the Messiah. That is who I worship. Not the messengers.

And the same for moslems, duh. They consider Mohammed as a prophet, they worship god. My question to you is why do you dismiss the evils of the Jewish prophets and yet patronize Mohammed for the same kinds of actions? Religious hypocricy at it's best.

[TheLunatic]

quote:Originally posted by Tab
And the same for moslems, duh. They consider Mohammed as a prophet, they worship god. My question to you is why do you dismiss the evils of the Jewish prophets and yet patronize Mohammed for the same kinds of actions? Religious hypocricy at it's best.

Because he doesn't care about facts he only cares about being right at any cost. Everything that comes out of his mouth is meant to try and prove that Narrow_path is right and everyone else is wrong. EGO at it's greatest plain and simple.

-Luke

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by Narrow Path

 Gandalf,

Prove to me that Jesus did any wrong or that it was ever even mentioned.

Tab,

The accepting og the OT prophets message is the acceptance of JESUS. He is the Messiah. That is who I worship. Not the messengers.

Prove to me that he didn't. And while you are at it you might as well go ahead and prove that he is the Messiah. And prove where Jesus wanted to be worshipped as a god and that only by worshipping him that one is "saved". I thought that there was only one God and that you are not suppose to worship anyone but that one God. "Thou shall have on other gods before me."

[Mohamed]

I promised the title of a Christian Documentary on the Prophet Muhammad, so here it is, "Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet."  The following link will take you to their website about Prophet Muhammad!

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/

[Narrow Path]

The Islamic Prophet Muhammed and his wonderful works!


http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=3950 Muhammad and the beating of women
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=4056 Muhammad and sex with a 9 year old
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=4166 Muhammad and the murder of Asma bint Marwan
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=4029 Muhammad and the torture and murder of Kinana
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=3947 Muhammad and the murder of Abu Afak
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=2680 Was Muhammad a role model?

[RGalibaba]

assalamu alkaikum mohamed,

any ways narrowminded should not post things he does on a forum,
check the facts idoit.

[Palehorse]

Gandalf,

Prove to me that Jesus did any wrong or that it was ever even mentioned.

I'm not Gandalf, but I can certainly provide the proof that he was accused.

Luke 7:34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '

Matt 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

And let's not forget that whole "king of the Jews" thing.  Jesus was crucified, which was a punishment generally only reserved for insurrection against Rome and similar treasonous crimes.  Of course, whether any of these accusations are legitimate or not is a whole other story.

As for Islam, I agree that the claims that have been presented are things each side can portray in whatever way they see fit.  However, I'm more concerned about statements that come from the Q'uran itself.  Suffice to say that the modern PC claim that "jihad" is only an internal struggle, or an act of self defense, appears to be blatantly false.

From an essay I wrote on the subject of "Christians and Jews under Muslim Conquest and Rule" last semester:

It is commanded of believers to "fight in the way of Allah ... with full force of numbers and weaponry" because "by jihad is Islam established (Surah 2:190)." Muslims are to "fight them until there is no more disbelief and idolatry (Surah 2:193)," and Muhammad himself is commanded to "give tidings of painful torment" to those who disbelieve (Surah 9:3).  Elsewhere, Muhammad is commanded to fulfill the terms of his treaty with another group, after which he is instructed to ambush and kill all the unbelievers he finds, until the survivors repent.  Surah 47:4 is probably the most extensive and explicit verse in this category; as such I will quote it in its entirety.  "So, when you meet (in fight – jihad in Allah's cause) those who disbelieve, smite their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).  Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (free them without ransom) or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden.  Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue carrying out jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam and are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire or at least come under your protection] but if it had been Allah's will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you).  But (He lets you fight) in order to test some of you with others.  But those who are killed in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."  

...

    Reactions to Pagans and polytheism in general is significantly more harsh, such as in Surah 9:5, where it is recommended that Pagans be killed whenever they are found unless they agree to convert to Islam, provided that the killing does not take place in the "forbidden months."

It must be said that the majority of Muslims today seem to want nothing more than to live in peace with their fellow human beings, and they should be commended for it.  However, they are acting AGAINST what is plainly stated in the Q'uran, and how it has historically been interpreted, rather than in accordance with it.  After doing the research for this essay, it really wasn't hard for me to see where more militant Muslims get their ideas -- their creed and mandate is essentially spelled out in their holy book, in no uncertain terms.

In light of this, I'd say it's the ethical responsibility of every peaceful Muslim to agree on an interpretation of their religion that condemns this sort of violence, and proclaim it from the rooftops.

[markulous]

What are you trying to prove here Narrow Path?  That Jesus is the only way?  Or that Islam is wrong?

[blackgen]

this is the most pathetic  thing that i ever heard.. narrowpath surely has a narrow mind if not anything else.. one can contort any statement to suit himself.. there is no point in suggesting that interpretations such as these have any meaning at all..

narrowpath, if you believe in jesus.. god for you. but you have no right to say that christianity is superior. each religion came up according to the needs of the people at a particular place and time. so each religion is important in its own way. to suggest that christianity is the way is blatant  dogmatism and sheer stupidity. i know so many chrisitians who are not satisfied with the ideas of christianity. why? only because one religion and one idea does not suit all.. just like the same shirt cannot be worn by all..

[RGalibaba]

ALLAHU AKBAR!!!!!!!!!!

thank you. blackgen and rest,

Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) was a human so he did make mistakes. But not the ones Narrow path has accused him of. and a common misconception is that muslims worship prophet muhammed, we dont only allah. for those who were not sure

[Islamis4u]

The idea that the Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him) beat his wives or taught his followers to beat their wives is the most ridiculous idea that any orientalist has ever thought up of.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Among the Muslims the most perfect, as regards his
faith, is the one whose character is excellent, and the best among you are those who treat their wives
well."

Imam Ahmad recorded that `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah never struck a servant of his with his hand, nor did he ever hit a woman. He never hit anything with his hand, except for when he was fighting Jihad in the cause of Allah. And he was never given the option between two things except that the most beloved of the two to him was the easiest of them, as long as it did not involve sin. If it did involve sin, then he stayed farther away from sin than any of the people. He would not avenge himself concerning anything that was done to him, except if the limits of Allah were transgressed. Then, in that case he would avenge for the sake of Allah.''

The Qur'an says: "And live with them(your wives) honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good. " [Surah An-Nisaa aayah 19]

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=10685

Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

The best among you is he who is the best with his family. Verily, I am the best one among you with my family.

[Islamis4u]

Question #44990: The reason why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married 'Aa'ishah despite the age difference  



Click here to get a printable version

Question :


A Christian colleague of mine asked me why the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) when she was nine years old and he was nearly sixty, and was he intimate with her at that age or what? In fact I do not know how to respond to that.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.  

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) after he married Sawdah bint Zam'ah (may Allaah be pleased with her). She – 'Aa'ishah – was the only virgin whom he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married. And he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine years old.

Among her virtues was the fact that the Revelation did not descend when he under one cover with any of his wives other than her. She was one of the dearest of all people to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and news of her innocence was revealed from above the seven heavens. She was one of the most knowledgeable of his wives, and one of the most knowledgeable women of the ummah as a whole. The senior companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to refer to her opinion and consult her.

With regard to the story of her marriage, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had grieved over the death of the Mother of the Believers Khadeejah, who had supported him and stood by his side, and he called the year in which she died The Year of Sorrow. Then he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Sawdah, who was an older woman and was not very beautiful; rather he married her to console her after her husband had died and she stayed among mushrik people. Four years later the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), and he was over fifty. Perhaps the reasons for the marriage were as follows:

1 – He saw a dream about marrying her. It is proven in al-Bukhaari from the hadeeth of 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: "You were shown to me twice in a dream. I saw that you were wrapped in a piece of silk, and it was said, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered her and saw that it was you. I said, 'If this is from Allaah then it will come to pass.'" (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3682). As to whether this is a prophetic vision as it appears to be, or a regular dream that may be subject to interpretation, there was a difference of opinion among the scholars, as mentioned by al-Haafiz in Fath al-Baari, 9/181.

2 – The characteristics of intelligence and smartness that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had noticed in 'Aa'ishah even as a small child, so he wanted to marry her so that she would be more able than others to transmit reports of what he did and said. In fact, as stated above, she was a reference point for the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) with regard to their affairs and rulings.

3 – The love of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for her father Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), and the persecution that Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) had suffered for the sake of the call of truth, which he bore with patience. He was the strongest of people in faith and the most sincere in certain faith, after the Prophets.

It may be noted that among his wives were those who were young and old, the daughter of his sworn enemy, the daughter of his closest friend. One of them occupied herself with raising orphans, another distinguished herself  from others by fasting and praying qiyaam a great deal... They represented all kinds of people, through whom the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was able to set out a way for the Muslims showing how to deal properly with all kinds of people. [See al-Seerah al-Nabawiyyah fi Daw' al-Masaadir al-Asliyyah, p. 711].

With regard to the issue of her being young and your being confused about that, you should note that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) grew up in a hot country, the Arabian Peninsula. Usually in hot countries adolescence comes early and people marry early. This is how the people of Arabia were until recently. Moreover, women vary greatly in their development and their physical readiness for marriage.

If you think – may Allaah guide you – that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry any virgin other than 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), and that all his other wives had been previously married, this will refute the notion spread by many hostile sources, that the basic motive behind the Prophet's marriages was physical desire and enjoyment of women, because if that was his intention he would have chosen only those who were virgins and beautiful etc.    

Such slanders against the Prophet of Mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by kaafirs and others of their ilk, are indicative of their inability to find fault with the law and religion that he brought from Allaah, so they try to find ways to criticize Islam with regard to issues that are not related to sharee'ah.

And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions.

For more information see Zaad al-Ma'aad, 1/106.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

[Islamis4u]

Gandalf,

Prove to me that Jesus did any wrong or that it was ever even mentioned.

I'm not Gandalf, but I can certainly provide the proof that he was accused.

Luke 7:34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '

Matt 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

And let's not forget that whole "king of the Jews" thing.  Jesus was crucified, which was a punishment generally only reserved for insurrection against Rome and similar treasonous crimes.  Of course, whether any of these accusations are legitimate or not is a whole other story.

As for Islam, I agree that the claims that have been presented are things each side can portray in whatever way they see fit.  However, I'm more concerned about statements that come from the Q'uran itself.  Suffice to say that the modern PC claim that "jihad" is only an internal struggle, or an act of self defense, appears to be blatantly false.

From an essay I wrote on the subject of "Christians and Jews under Muslim Conquest and Rule" last semester:

It is commanded of believers to "fight in the way of Allah ... with full force of numbers and weaponry" because "by jihad is Islam established (Surah 2:190)." Muslims are to "fight them until there is no more disbelief and idolatry (Surah 2:193)," and Muhammad himself is commanded to "give tidings of painful torment" to those who disbelieve (Surah 9:3).  Elsewhere, Muhammad is commanded to fulfill the terms of his treaty with another group, after which he is instructed to ambush and kill all the unbelievers he finds, until the survivors repent.  Surah 47:4 is probably the most extensive and explicit verse in this category; as such I will quote it in its entirety.  "So, when you meet (in fight – jihad in Allah's cause) those who disbelieve, smite their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).  Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (free them without ransom) or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden.  Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue carrying out jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam and are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire or at least come under your protection] but if it had been Allah's will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you).  But (He lets you fight) in order to test some of you with others.  But those who are killed in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."  

...

    Reactions to Pagans and polytheism in general is significantly more harsh, such as in Surah 9:5, where it is recommended that Pagans be killed whenever they are found unless they agree to convert to Islam, provided that the killing does not take place in the "forbidden months."

It must be said that the majority of Muslims today seem to want nothing more than to live in peace with their fellow human beings, and they should be commended for it.  However, they are acting AGAINST what is plainly stated in the Q'uran, and how it has historically been interpreted, rather than in accordance with it.  After doing the research for this essay, it really wasn't hard for me to see where more militant Muslims get their ideas -- their creed and mandate is essentially spelled out in their holy book, in no uncertain terms.

In light of this, I'd say it's the ethical responsibility of every peaceful Muslim to agree on an interpretation of their religion that condemns this sort of violence, and proclaim it from the rooftops.

I completely agree with that interpretation, for it is the historical interpretation and is correct. Jihaad is the means in which the banner of monotheism is uplifted and none is worshipped but the Creator.

The Prophet(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fought in order to rid the arabian peninsula from the darkness of idolatry. As for Jews and Christians and the Zoroastrians, he accepted Jizyah(protection tax) from them, in exchange that their lives, wealth, and honour would be protected.

[Palehorse]

I completely agree with that interpretation, for it is the historical interpretation and is correct. Jihaad is the means in which the banner of monotheism is uplifted and none is worshipped but the Creator.

So you do agree with the interpretation that says violence is a legitimate way of spreading Islam?  Don't you think there's enough violence in the world as it is?  What exactly is gained when someone is killed for not converting?  Also, if your religion is true, then shouldn't its truth speak for itself without having to convert people against their will, by force?

The Prophet(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fought in order to rid the arabian peninsula from the darkness of idolatry.

So you feel that murdering Pagans who won't accept your religion is completely justified?  What is it about polytheists that you feel makes them undeserving of life?  Why is killing them and sending them to Hell preferable to allowing them to live, thus preserving the possibility that they might convert later?

As for Jews and Christians and the Zoroastrians, he accepted Jizyah(protection tax) from them, in exchange that their lives, wealth, and honour would be protected.

In other words, "give me money and I'll allow you to exist."  What a deal.

There's a word for that, y'know -- extortion.