Problems I have with Muslem and Christian heavens such as endless bliss

[Alan McDougall]

Greetings some problems I perceive in an eternal heaven of endless bliss

All the time in the existence and not a moment to call your own

No pain and no gain

No point to the day and nothing different tomorrow

An eternity of gratitude and nothing to live for

Never having to say you'd rather be somewhere else

All you will ever know again

Pointless and endless

It is never over no matter have had how many fat have ladies sung

An offer you can't refuse


The endless futility at the end of your pointless life

The meaningless reason for your existence

An eternal karaoke in which you never choose the songs

The playground of those devoid of imagination

The place the pious go

Full of all those people you were delighted to think you would never see again

Obligatory, interminable and insufferable

Of course there are the possible alternatives of hell or cessation of existence

I could add many more but lets leave it at that

What do you guys think?

Alan

[Starvingpercussionist]

"An eternal karaoke in which you never choose the songs"

Hahaha.  Good one.

[AmbientSound]

That sort of heaven ("eternal" "bliss") does not sound blissful or eternal to me. I think it sounds more like an ultra-mega dumbed-down and distorted version of something much more complex and beautiful.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Alan, allow me to comment. It seems that you, and many others, have a very traditional understanding of Heaven, Eternity or whatever you call it. What we have all been taught, is very different to what seems to actually be imbedded in the Bible. I am not telling you to believe and become Christian, but if you are going to criticize Christianity, let us at least look at what it actually teaches. I took the liberty to cut and paste to make a few categories out of your statements, hope you do not mind

All the time in the existence and not a moment to call your own

Well first of all, is eternity eternal, I wonder, the Greek word often used in the translation of eternal or everlasting is actually "Aeon" which means an age. It seems that what the Bible actually teaches is, that the hereafter is not made up of moments, moments would indicate a measure of time, and since "time will be no more", it appears that it is a "dimension" quite different from what we know now. It seems plausible that eternity is past present and future all rolled up in a ball, time travel should be possible, yet with personal choice the future could have a unlimited amount of possibilities......the mind boggles. Besides this observation, about time, if God is as close as it appears He wants to be, Jesus being our all and all, mother father brother sister lover mate etc, I do not think we will be languishing for time of "our own", we would probably be so happy and exited to have the possibility of connecting with the eternal and partake of this Love that a separation from Him/Her/It would be the difficult part.

No pain and no gain

While it is true that there will be no more pain, I think you are again jumping to a conclusion. Is gain possible without pain? Well it seems so. It appears that the suffering that Jesus endured on the cross is in a way the end of "pain" for the believer. It seems that when we first arrive in the hereafter there will be at least some pain, as we see more clearly the mistakes we have made and the suffering our selfishness have caused, whole chain of events that have been started by us, but then it says that Jesus will "wipe away the tears from our eyes" and I think it will be sort of "up hill on a ski lift sort of idea" from there on. Gain without pain...yes mama super.....so different from earth!

No point to the day and nothing different tomorrow

An eternity of gratitude and nothing to live for


Ha.....yes I used to wonder about that as well. Sitting on a cloud playing a harp or just drifting about bored out of my brains, but I think I had it mixed up. That's HELL, repeating the same useless futile things day after day with no change no vision no goal no nothing. It is said that the (here)after is just a continuation of what we do and are here.....that we create our own hell and our own heaven. So if your have "no point to the day and nothing different tomorrow" change it!!!!Get a vision here start doing what you want here and cheer up here...........not only will your present be better but you might shape your future, and your tomorrow will be different, and possibly............your hereafter will as well!

Never having to say you'd rather be somewhere else

There was a movie when I was young called "love story" in it this young couple had a Romeo and Juliet kind of affair and coined an expression that the Hippie generation took on as their own. It went................"Love is never having to say you are sorry". I never liked the expression. I always thought that Love was saying I'm sorry. Maybe if you would rather be somewhere else, you just go where ever you wanna be, maybe you never have to be under any obligation, and feel like "you have to" or even better yet......maybe you are just happy where you are........this goes for this life and the one to follow.

All you will ever know again

Now this does not sound like Christianity, on the contrary this sounds life the futility of reincarnation, (and to all of you out there, I am fully aware that it seems possible that the early Christians believed in something like reincarnation) again I think you have succumbed to teachings that are not quite according to "doctrine", I do not think the hereafter is repetitive, on the contrary, it appears that we will be doing a lot of new things, we will be "healing the nations" for one thing and most of all it will be ever learning new things new ways and having a new vision.

Pointless and endless

The endless futility at the end of your pointless life

The meaningless reason for your existence

An eternal karaoke in which you never choose the songs


Oh my.........wonder what kind of life you live Alan it seems a bit on the dreary side. Actually this is one of the great mysteries of life..........death!.........why do we die and why did we live. My personal opinion is that we will have a lot of work to do when we leave this life. The end of this life is just the beginning, we have a whole universe to explore and who knows what cultures civilizations we will encounter. Maybe we will be the angels that help bring about the knowledge of God on other planets, and who knows what will be the end, again the mind boggles....one thing for sure it will be exiting.

It is never over no matter have had how many fat have ladies sung

An offer you can't refuse

Obligatory, interminable and insufferable

Interesting question! Can one refuse God. Can we as human decide to ignore God and not take part in his plan?. I think you are right we cannot. I personally believe in Universal Reconciliation and it seems that it is quite supported by scripture. Eventually every living soul will be reconciled and gathered to be a part of God, every knee will bow and everything will return to its maker.

The playground of those devoid of imagination

The place the pious go

Full of all those people you were delighted to think you would never see again

Like the old traditional story goes of the old drunk that said to the Pastor, "yea heaven is all right, but there is no place like Hell to meet old friends" It is my personal opinion again, that most of the pious will be somewhere in the cellar, that goes for those devoid of imagination as well, as far as the ones you were so delighted never to see again, I think it would depend on what and who you are. For the most part I think that the ones we are not happy to be around actually vibrate at a vastly different frequency, and you will most likely not see them till you or they have changed. Like attracts like in that world, and you will be with those that think act and vibrate like you..........I don't know where that would put you. Jesus never had too much good to say about religious people, never seemed they were his lot. He condemned the self-righteous pious scribes and Pharisees, the Church people of his day, and hung out with drunks and whores, the ones that wanted and needed his message. I guess what you are, would determine where you end up.....what are YOUR values.....what are your likes and dislikes etc what do you think

Of course there are the possible alternatives of hell or cessation of existence

Now this is the best question of all, or thought or whatever. What alternative do we have? It seems not much Alan. Life moves us all along at its own speed, and death comes to us all and the hereafter is waiting.........I personally think that a cessation of existence is impossible. It seems that eternity is waiting for us all whatever it is and whatever we are. Where and what we will be doing there, appears to be, at least in part up to us. So what will it be for you?. A life lived in joy and love here is quite a good bet I would say. No one has come to the end of their life and regretted they lived their life as a true loving Christian, caring for strangers and giving to those in need, on the contrary. Those who regret their lives, and who will wonder about the hereafter, on deaths doorstep, will be those who have not lived up to their true potential, those who wasted it on pleasure and games, drugs and whatever. Those who amassed wealth, that they had no need for and those who used and abused their fellow man, killed the innocent, for power and glory, or bitterness and hate. 

What will you be, where do YOU stand, and what will you be doing in eternity. An interesting question we should all ask ourselves.

Regards Mustardseed

[Alan McDougall]

Thank you David

That was a very comprehensive reply and I will give some thought before responding in full,

The so called "Heaven " I suggested was tongue in cheek and I do not think heaven is like this at all.

I worded it that way to get responses.

I am a Christian David . Heaven is a place of endless learning a place of glorious challenges a huge universe God has prepared for us to explore and understand, a place where we will become co- creators with God and our Lord Jesus Christ. And much much more.

I know you are also a Christian of deep conviction, and as for me I have decided not to compromise my belief in Christ just to avoid hurting to sensitives of those who do not share my convictions

Alan

[AmbientSound]

Perhaps heaven is the state of having learned all the lessons.

I agree with the idea of conscious co-creation. After all, we could create our existence alone, or we could share it together. And instant manifestation to boot!

Why do we die, and why do we live? Experience is something you get just after you need it. Perhaps everyone's reasons are different. Or maybe they are all the same- who but God and a handful of psychics know for sure?

Eternity lasts forever. But life is short. Perhaps life is simply an introduction to what is possible, the trial version of the Eternity program (shareware strikes again!).

Perhaps life is a factory where all of us are made, and the various forces we encounter shape our vibration. If we assume ourselves to be dynamic after death (that is, experiencing some array of tensions within our being and the release of those tensions), then perhaps whatever happens next is what keeps everything in balance, both with us and the rest of the Universe.

Given that a vibration is an oscillation between a maximum and minimum value, perhaps heaven and hell are two absolute planes between which we exist.

I do hope that the transition between death and eternity is not like graduating from University and being flung out into the 'real world.'

[Alan McDougall]

AmbientSound

Why do we die, and why do we live? Experience is something you get just after you need it. Perhaps everyone's reasons are different. Or maybe they are all the same- who but God and a handful of psychics know for sure

Why do we die? This is the ultimate question is it not? The eat or be eaten reality we experience on earth does not seem to equate to a loving creator. Surely God could have found a better way of re-energizing our bodies without slaughtering animals etc etc,

I have long thought about this vexing enigma , and approached it with deep prayer.

You would be surprised with the answer I got after 40 years praying about it.

We were/are not meant to die, DEATH is the enemy that Jesus came to put under his authority. 1 Corr, 15

Something went wrong long before the earth was created, darkness invaded the LIGHT.

IT IS NOT GODS WILL THAT ANY SHOULD DIE

Alan

[AmbientSound]

Now this opens up so many more questions...

Does this define God as fallible? Did God mean for plants and animals also to live forever? What about the subject of breeding and overpopulation? All that we face today... do you think that, through our technology, all of this can be changed?

[Alan McDougall]

This is how I really perceive heaven(s) to be

  Heaven is just one of countless dimensions, it is the door way to countless challenges, ceaseless learning
It is the first realm of the afterlife The reason so many who have had NDE come back with different descriptions of heaven is that one is eased into heaven with familiar surroundings than that of physical life.

That is why we hear of people in cloths or clothes and little cottages beside a river. But the soul must move on to higher reality into harmonious vibrations of great intensity and joy. We become able to comprehend much of the Divine Mind as we progress through great realms of pure thought and love. We interact with all other sentient life, both physical and spiritual.

Souls interact when their vibratory intensities harmonize and merge into immense beautiful madalas of colors unknown in the physical realities it is really birds of a feather flock together in the afterlife. So the bleak and dark will congregate with those of their own kind. Graduations from these heavens is necessary just as graduations from the highest heavens continue forever,

God never ceased to create he is the ceaseless creators reaching out with us toward infinity

There is no end to this great journey, we interact with all existence, merge, and submerge in infinite love and joy.

We approach the infinite light that pervades all of existence this great mind that sustains everything. We become co creators with god all souls first in our universe and then in billions of others.
Heaven is not a place of rest because no one there gets tired.

It is a new lease on life. But you can rest if you like, nothing is forbidden in heaven, if it were heaven would not be heaven

All thought and minds are open and communication is mind to mind or telepathy. Thus dark minds must keep to their own until new light enters their souls and they are able to merge with higher souls in the everlasting progress of life

There is a never ceasing experience for evolved souls of merging with the light God. It is like having your body explode in a pleasant way and becoming a million different atoms. Each atom can think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. You feel all at once what it feels like to be everything and everybody

The mind expands outward to encompass the universe until it embraces all of existence becoming all in all with God. All knowledge is known.

   Heaven is a place of imagination. Heaven is exactly what our imagination needs it to be.
   
In heaven, where all people really love each other, there are no inhibitions, or need for them. Everyone does exactly as they please; which works out well because only the best in each person survives, and good is all anyone ever wants to do.

This allows a freedom and happiness that people on earth cannot imagine. Of course, there is no sin or evil in heaven
   
People don't go to heaven because of their good deeds. It's what you are that counts.
   
Each soul has a "job" to do, a position to fill in the greater scheme of things. All souls grow and continue to learn in heaven.
After death, each soul has to rise as best it can through a hierarchy of heavens and face the increasingly difficult challenges posed by God of each level or dimension of heaven. We continue to progress towards the infinite.
   
Things in heaven do not age, don't get dirty, don't wear out, and do not get tired.  Everything is kept pure by God.
 
Our deceased pets appear in heaven the way we remember them, only younger and more vital. We can communicate with them telepathically. They also have dwelling places of their own

I use the term heaven in the singular as well as the infinite plural.

Heaven embraces everything, because heaven is GOD

Alan
29/4/2007

[Cleric P]

Thanks for that well-written description, it's just how I think it is too. It's just so logical this way - everyone gets what they create/believe and it's all about growth and evolution. No rules, no judgement, no dogma and no objective reality, just eternal spirit and unlimited potential.