The Astral Pulse

Holy crap, that is too long. A few might read it, but a summary would be useful to the rest of us.

Great post, I read the majority of it =)

You will be surprised my friend..........at the short attention span of most folks here, myself included. After 22 line I (we?) said ....OK whatever[:)]
Regards Mustardseed

I resent that comment Mustardseed! I'll have you know I have a very long atten.....oh bugger, I've broken another fingerna......Ahhh so that's what happens when you press that button....
[:P]

I did like the "surgical imprecision" bit.
I remember reading in an OMNI magazine some years ago when fractals became a big thing, there was a highlighted statement that said something about more powerful computing abilities bringing science closer to finding God, that with the discovery of fractals in nature it was pointing more to the fact that this universe was designed. Now even Stephen Hawking has suggested that the most workeable Big Bang theory must have involved some overseeing intelligence.

Interesting though is the fact that there are a large number of people out there such as my wife, who would call themselves an atheist simply because they do not believe in any of the religions or dogmas. She does however believe that there is some kind of sentient entity running the whole show, but is not prepared to accept the anthropomorphism of this entity such as is portrayed by the major religions.

Regards,
James.

Hey I'm sorry for the long statement, but I am believing in god and slowly reading the bible and such.

until recently, i've been going to church and learning this stuff.  And I'm only 20 years of age.  But at the same time, I've been reaidng people's posts about how they do not know if there is a god, and all about this new age stuff.  That is fine if you believe the new age, but my aproach is, 'i believe in god.'  but at the same time I've been learning the spiritual development things like AP, TK, telepathy, so forth.  Well I just wanted to make a summary that will maybe put question in peoples minds.  like the questions I have.

 Now since I've been going to church, I've been wanting to ask but cannot because of the fact that people will look down on me, and not understand, therefore say its the work of cults and devil-work.  I wanted to know if anyone can sum up some kind of similarity between all this spiritual stuff with the bible.  Now we were not put on this earth with the ability to walk, talk, and breath and die.  Were here to walk, talk, live, 'learn the truths of god' and 'spiritually develop'.  If anyone knows much about the bible, and maybe something I can bring up next time I goto church, a proverb and 'something' bring up question to the things i believe rather than someone saying to me, "Thats the work of cults and new age, the Devil with bring deceiving things to your mind" blah blah blah.

 Cause really I believe, over the ages, the christian religion has corrupted scriptures and slowly brought people into thinking this kind of stuff is the work of the devil.  JUST like how most people today perceive 'easter',  people think of easter as eggs and bunnies, but it blinds the real truth behind easter itself, jesus and such....

sorry, soo long for the short-attention people. I just have serious questions and I would like people to post there oppinions

kerrblur,

Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly. I am not a believer of all this "stuff" that is talked about in here, but at the same time, as a Christian, I am not ignorant of the fact that there is a spiritual world "out there." I would even say it is more of a reality than the physical world we live in.

I do not believe for one minute that the church has corrupted the scriptures over the centuries, and in fact, the evidence goes very much against that. I do not fault you for holding to that view, it is somewhat common; it's just that it is erroneous and without basis.

You said you believe in God. That's good, but everything depends on who your God is.

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Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly. .....

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and who determines what????....... new age is.....?

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I do not believe for one minute that the church has corrupted the scriptures over the centuries, and in fact, the evidence goes very much against that. I do not fault you for holding to that view, it is somewhat common; it's just that it is erroneous and without basis.

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As you, I believe it is erroneous but it is not without basis.
I think that would be very biased and is exactly the kind of statement that gets people up in arms.

Regards Mustardseed

Why do you have to prove God exists?  Why doesn't God do it?  is he too busy to profve he exists?

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Originally posted by exothen

Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly.

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quite honestly the bible does NOT condemn mysticism or anything like it. it does not exalt it, but it does not condemn it either. (and it ESPECIALLY couldn't POSSIBLY condemn specifically new age stuff (as opposed to general occultism) since new age stuff has only been around since, at the earliest, the late 1800's whereas the bible was written approx 2000 years prior).

~kakkarot

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Why do you have to prove God exists? Why doesn't God do it? is he too busy to profve he exists?

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Prove to me you exist. Why dont you just do it? Are you too busy to prove you exist? Then when your done with that, concince 8 billion other people you exist. Have fun! [:D]

The Bible condemns channeling, mediums, witchcraft, and seeking spiritual guidance other than seeking God. No, it doesn't address some of the specifics of New Age beliefs and practices, but the condemnation is against spiritual practices apart from the working of God in general. If it isn't of God, it stands condemned.

If I created 8 billion people, I might be courteous enough to explain to them what happened, instead of leaving them guessing and arguing about it for billions of years.  That is, if I was a good god.  If I was an evil god, I would find a lot of humor in all of this scrambling around.

Before I prove to you I exist, I'll teach you how to spell convince.  

Maybe I just did both?

James S I remember reading in an OMNI magazine some years ago when fractals became a big thing, there was a highlighted statement that said something about more powerful computing abilities bringing science closer to finding God, that with the discovery of fractals in nature it was pointing more to the fact that this universe was designed.

Fractals are just math. They dont imply god exists any more than the laws of physics, which are math.

I'm not sure, but I think this formula I just made is a fractal:

sin(x*x) / x

If you find something that formula describes, does that mean I created it?

Referance Please

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Originally posted by Mustardseed

Referance Please

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The Speller demon strikes again!!!

the word is REFERENCE.

Xander.

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The Bible condemns channeling, mediums, witchcraft, and seeking spiritual guidance other than seeking God. No, it doesn't address some of the specifics of New Age beliefs and practices, but the condemnation is against spiritual practices apart from the working of God in general. If it isn't of God, it stands condemned.

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okay first of all, the bible may condemn aLL this but there is also a reason as to why every human being has it, how they use it, and at the same time, going to church to send your life to jesus christ.  now whats this hu-yay with jesus dieing for our sins? now if channeling and all that junk is condemned, well, you know wut i meen?  another thing, isnt there some truth behind you must know god exists by believing? having faith? not by seeing?

it is obvious all this stuff with spiritual development was over the centuries left out or not even put in by the people who over the 'centuries' written the book.  or if and i know it is somewhere still, in the bible, some kind of scripture reletive to any kind of spiritualism, please answer me  

because so far, I PM'ed mustardSeed my concern, so maybe he can sum it up for me

Noone has answered my question or my concern, all i herd was "what god you talking bout'? so forth, I'm not mad or trying to upset anyone, but I'm really starting to become a christian here.  but honoestly, if you talk to any other person about this, they will think your skitso(SP?). well I just want some kind of docutment to bring into church so I can tell them my concern, so without arguing about whats with what or this belife system is this.  Just think about this: "God is there", you know by projecting, its obvious, your arrogant to think otherwise, no offense to anyone.  some kind of proof, documentation, scriptures anything to help me when i goto church next. thank you

I helped a friend of mine, author of "My First Encounter With An Angel" research over 160 bibles (see topic ID=8018) and this is what we found:

exothen - your right the Bible does condemn psychic phenomena - except hidden in Corinthians we have it applauding "gifts of the spirit":

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1 Cor. 12:01   46.1201   BRAV   1951   Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethen, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Cor. 12:04-11   46.120411   BRAV   1951   Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of services, but the same Lord. And there are varieties of workings, but it is the same God which works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every one for the benefit of all. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these works that one and the selfsame Spirit, distributing to each one particularly as he will. For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many are one body: so also is Christ.
1 Cor. 14:01   46.1401   BRAV   1951   Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy.
1 Cor. 14:04   46.1404   BRAV   1951   He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the congregation.
1 Cor. 14:05   46.1405   BRAV   1951   I would that you all spoke with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the congregation may receive edifying.
1 Cor. 14:26   46.1426   BRAV   1951   How is it then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongues, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edifying.
1 Cor. 14:27   46.1427   BRAV   1951   If any one speak in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and in succession; and let one interpret.
1 Cor. 14:28   46.1428   BRAV   1951   But if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in the congregation; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Cor. 14:29   46.1429   BRAV   1951   Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge.
1 Cor. 14:30   46.1430   BRAV   1951   If any thing be revealed to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
1 Cor. 14:31   46.1431   BRAV   1951   For you may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1 Cor. 14:32   46.1432   BRAV   1951   And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Cor. 14:33   46.1433   BRAV   1951   For God is not of confusion, but of peace, as in all congregations of the saints.

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[:)]

Also the proof of God's existence is the glueon that holds you together![;)]

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your right the Bible does condemn psychic phenomena - except hidden in Corinthians we have it applauding "gifts of the spirit":

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The gifts of the Spirit (the third person of the Trinity; God) are not at all related to psychic phenomena. Paul makes it clear that these gifts are given by God for the express purpose of the building up of the Church. The only persons who had these gifts were those who were Christians. There is absolutely nothing "New Age" about these gifts. And they aren't "hidden" in Corinthians, they are one of the main purposes Paul wrote to the church at Corinth.

Kerrblur,

I am not too sure I understand your post.

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the bible may condemn aLL this but there is also a reason as to why every human being has it, how they use it, and at the same time, going to church to send your life to jesus christ.

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Well, I disagree that every human being has "it" and am highly doubtful if "it" exists at all, at least in the way it is presented in these forums. I know of no person in church who believes in this stuff precisely because the Bible strongly condemns it.

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now whats this hu-yay with jesus dieing for our sins? now if channeling and all that junk is condemned, well, you know wut i meen? another thing, isnt there some truth behind you must know god exists by believing? having faith? not by seeing?

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Not too sure what you are trying to say here.

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it is obvious all this stuff with spiritual development was over the centuries left out or not even put in by the people who over the 'centuries' written the book. or if and i know it is somewhere still, in the bible, some kind of scripture reletive to any kind of spiritualism, please answer me

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You will not find support for this New Age stuff in the Bible, at all. The Bible considers this type of spiritualism as pagan and completely devoid of anything good or of God.

Okay, I didnt explain myself here.

Why does telepathy, OBE, TK, predicting the furture, all this stuff 'new age'? thats wut I'm trying to say! these abilities have been aorund for thousands among thousands of years, since recorded man have been around! and how old is 'new age'? do you understand my saying? if we humans have these abilities, then why are we condemned to use it? why has GOD himself put us to have it?  maybe to only have select people to 'discover' his abilites that he put on us? these abilities you must know, except by the few, only discover it through practice and time.....  so maybe God gives every person(like i say except with the rare few that are born with it) that certain choice, to discover the (as you say) 'new age' abilities, the 'new age' in my oppionion i know has been out for along along time, but it didnt 'really' boom til the 1960's.  but in a sense can be believed to the fullest extent but you shouldn't group spiritual abilities solely as 'new age' when they've been around since man learned how to make a wheel.  'new age' is a great religion to know but I'm solely on discovering the connection between spiritual development and the christian religion, the bible and making christians into believers, believe this or not, I am a semi-regular pendulum user, and my guides, angels, or god for that matter i dunno have kind of sent me messages saying I need to Teach the wiser to be wiser. exactly what they said in a crazy long 'hang-man' game with the pendulum. i need clarifications and help to bring with me. thank you.

Candieapple has help me sooo much!! and if only she can help me on something to say on my behalf, because if I read some of thoughs scriptures, I have to defend myself in some way!  and if there is any  other material to use! I'd love it....
The bible does say some things about condemning them but, like I said over the centuries, I believe they added 'some' things to hide some certain truths.  I dont wanna upset anyone in anyway but I'm just trying to find out some things and learn like all of you [:)]

Dear Exothen
First let me apologise for the spelling mistake. I am not a native english speller, as I have explained many times before and most do not hold me ad ridgid as others to this standard.

I compleately understand your concern. We have had a very long conversation about this at the famous Satan decieves you thread. There seems to be however a very blurred line between what is condemned and what is not what is new age and what is in effect just ancient arts of fx healing. Let me explain.

First of all I would agree that in the old testament it is clear that God did forbid the Jews of old to see mediums and witchcraft was forbidden. (i.e. the witch of Endor) this however was a specific message in the old testament and if we should really put things "on end" the old testament is null and void. I assume that you are familiar with those verses!!! There are now for a Christian only 2 commandments "Love God and your neighbour for on these two hang the law and the prophets". All things are now lawful......but not all things profit!!. Personally I remain sceptic about witcraft etc but find it interesting that the Prophet compares witchcraft with stubbornness and other rebellious acts.

"to obey is better than sacrefice and to listen than the fat of rams, for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as idolatry and iniquity"

It seems to me that in those days there was a possibility that Gods message could be confused with the Devils, and God had to have very strict guidelines. He also at that time recommended that a child or teenager who was disrespectfull against his /her parents or a woman taken in adultery was taken without the gates and stoned to death! Something I do not expect you to adhere to!!

This may be an indication that they at that time had no real dicernment. Jesus was not yet crucified and the HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN. !!!

In our days this is different. We do have both and the ability to discer.

In my opinion what one does with ones "spiritual manefestation' may be a determining factor. I do myself have OBEs and had them since I was 4 yrs old. I does not seem evil to me , thoughit is at times scary. There are a mass of gifts that I would say seems ok though not to my liking. Zone therapy, acupunkture, aromatherapi, iris reasing, and even astrology. I am not advocating living by an astrologer but we as christians must admit that it seems evident that different people have been born under different signs thus been given different traits.

On the negative we have fx channeling. I have said often that channeling is a very dangerous practice along with penduling etc.

I think we must discern and that a lot of misunderstandings arise from the dogmatic viewpoint that it is all bad if it is not in church. The churches themselves are guilty of many sins spiritual problems are rampant and they are not in a position to remove any splinters from their brothers eye. Let us discuss these things in a reasonable matter and it could be an interesting conversation.

This is why I said "who determines what new age is"

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Exothen
I have posted for a long time here on the board and is known to most as a Christian. I know my Bible. If you only want to poke fun at my spelling mistakes but do not want to answer my posts in a respectful manner, most folks will just blow you off as yet another selfrighteous holier than thou church person. If that is your intent and if you feel they (and you) would get closer to God that way....ok. If however you want to reasonably discuss the issues at hand, please stop your sarcasm and ....talk to me. You keep quoting the Bible saying.......the Bible says....Please give me the references you refer to or stop saying the Bible says!!!. In many things I might agree with you , but I would need to know your scriptual backup.

Thankyou
Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,

    Hey, I understand the comments thats said, even though I do not know the words that were said about you, but hopefully you are understanding my concern right now with the connection between spiritual gifts(or in arrogant terms 'new age' ways).  Without waiting for his reply, maybe you can discuss with me right now like what 'Candieapple' was starting to discuss!  This is what I'm searching for and I'm one step closer! I am not very well educated in the bible, but like I said, I am trying my hardest to be a christian but at the same time figuring out the messages/visions/thoughs, whatever you want to call it I have had to find the connection between the two.  

    Thank You,

Ryan K

"why they don't believe in God, say that it is because they cannot see Him – yet if the question is put to them whether they believe in love, will say yes, and mean it. We believe in love yet how many of us have seen it?"

It is simply because people can experience the sensation of love, the sensation of kindness or other feel good emotions.

"The Divine Being who not only created all these qualities but whose very substance, whose whole make up is of goodness and mercy, truth and love."

It is more logical to say such divine beings possess admirable qualities. Such qualities cannot be created.

TOO LONG!!


"Complexity or large numbers do not necessarily imply intelligent design."

Have you ever come across your mind that something is complex but YET simple and yet in work in HARMONY with greater part of the system?

Is it an intelligent design?


"Both can arise from the application of simple rules."

The Fractal pattern produced by simple application of formula is complex. But how much intelligence is required to understand and even to derive such equation?

"God would have had to be designed or could never have arisen."

Can you design intelligence? One of the most distinct characteristic of God is intelligence. How does intelligence spring forth?

Mustardseed,

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If you only want to poke fun at my spelling mistakes but do not want to answer my posts in a respectful manner,

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You must have me confused with xander. I haven't even posted anything to you, nevermind made fun of your spelling.

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the Bible says....Please give me the references you refer to or stop saying the Bible says!!!. In many things I might agree with you , but I would need to know your scriptual backup.

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And likewise for you. If you want to believe that New Age beliefs are compatible with Christianity, then back that up with scripture. I will reply in length when I get a bit more time.

The evidence of God is inside you and it is outside you.
The problem is people has no idea what is God. They don't know where to look at. They look and search the whole universe, what they can see is material composed of atoms. But they don't understand how much intelligence is required just to make a universe, a living earth,you, me...............

or I should say how much intelligence is required just to comprehend the universe, living earth, you and me.............

Mixed you up with Xander. I shall be glad to include ref. however the conversation started between us when you made the above statement. As you were the one making that first initial statement you should also back it up. As a Christian you cannot say "the Bible says...." and then when someone says  "where does it say that", require ME to include ref.

I personally believe that you would have to differentiate or at least define Nwe Age before you condemn it. NA has become a very big movement and include various beliefs and practices. So define which you call new age and be so kind to quote me what the Bible says about these practices. This is your responsibility. I am not making statements saying NA is Christian and blessed practices. If I had made such claims you could have asket for MY ref. to back it up.[:)]

I hope I am making myself clear.

Regards Mustardseed

Actually Mustard I do recall posting to you in this thread where I took a jab at your spelling. It's dated Dec 5th where I make ReferEnce to a speller demon.


Xander

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Originally posted by Mustardseed

Mixed you up with Xander. I shall be glad to include ref. however the conversation started between us when you made the above statement. As you were the one making that first initial statement you should also back it up. As a Christian you cannot say "the Bible says...." and then when someone says  "where does it say that", require ME to include ref.

I personally believe that you would have to differentiate or at least define Nwe Age before you condemn it. NA has become a very big movement and include various beliefs and practices. So define which you call new age and be so kind to quote me what the Bible says about these practices. This is your responsibility. I am not making statements saying NA is Christian and blessed practices. If I had made such claims you could have asket for MY ref. to back it up.[:)]

I hope I am making myself clear.

Regards Mustardseed

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Ok lets discuss this the. What is the workings of God and what is not. What has the Church to do with it anyway. The Church did not exist in the form it has now when this was written. The old testament condemns listening to and seeking advise of spirits other than Gods spirit yet in Revelation when John falls down to worship the angel he said to him "worship not me for I am of your breatheren the prophets", It seems that when people cross over they are used in some way to aid the ones here. At least this seems supportable by the scripture. Certain beliefs like astrology is clearly in the Bible. The lights in the "firmament" was for times and seasons. "The stars in their courses fought against sesirea" .

It seems obvious that the physical and spiritual creation was created after a certain template, and with certain building blocks. Lets just say a art as dousing. (Finding water with a stick) Some very fearful folks believe it is the work of demons, like they did back in the middle ages. It could just be a simple natural force magnetism or physical law not yet found by science!!! Christians are often too quick to lob everything they do not understand into the pot of "demons at work". I believe that in this they are very wrong.
It seems evident Moses dowsed himself. I had a very good friend a farmer, in the south parts of Devon. He was a very sweet and kind man and used to go help his neighbours find springs and stuf. He never knew he was dowsing, he was finding water, he loved God and was a very sweet spirit. Was he communicating with demons. I think not. Most folks who claim demons are at work heve never had experience with spiritual entities , if they had they would think different. These spirits leave their signature believe me.

Other practices are in my opinion, much worse. There are some here who are developing severe problems and have horrible experiences. Why? Is it becourse they still are under influence of us in the "belief terretories" or are they meddeling in matters way out of their sphere. I believe it is.

You can call me what you want Gandalf and Xander and False prophet and all you others, lets compare notes again in 6 months time. Some of you are inviting trouble by not being carefull enough and realising what you are involved in.

All that said and done I have to explain that I have frequent OBE experiences and had them since I was 4 yrs old. I have hovever found it best to avoid the RTZ, and go straight to the Astral planes as much as possible. Often I do not go with the vibrations. I go in my time and as I feel led by God and my faith.

I hope I make myself clear and apologise for spelling mistakes. I am not a good speller in English but a busy man and have no time to spend hours typing things like this and minding grammar too much.

Regards Mustardseed

]Originally posted by Mustardseed[/i]

 What is the workings of God and what is not.

>Are you so presumptuous as to claim you know the mind and workings of God??? ROFLMAO!!!

Other practices are in my opinion, much worse.

>That's right, in YOUR opinion.

becourse they still are under influence of us in the "belief terretories" or are they meddeling in matters way out of their sphere. I believe it is.

>Good F***ing gawd! learn to SPELL!!! AAAANNNND who are you to judge what I can and cant handle.

You can call me what you want Gandalf and Xander and False prophet and all you others, lets compare notes again in 6 months time. Some of you are inviting trouble by not being carefull enough and realising what you are involved in.

>I take your challenge! I Know what I am involved in! Hence my passion and power! I am on my way to becoming a master of light/darkness! I shall be I shall be.

>Xander

Mustardseed is a genious(SP?).  thank you.  I believe there is no such reason to even doubt him and/or try to explain how 'god' doesnt exist with my starting topic on this post.

 The whole reason for this post was to understand the connection between spiritual gifts and such with the bible and christianity.  his spelling ALSO has nothing to do with it, no offense but he who says he does with his apologies are arrogant and just talking out air.

 But at the same time, please, be open in what you believe about 'new age' and such cause I am learning a great deal here, I am to be making a big review about this when i goto church. thank you

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Originally posted by Kerrblur

Mustardseed is a genious(SP?).  thank you.  I believe there is no such reason to even doubt him

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I have no proof that he is anything close to a genius (correct spelling). Mustard is human and thus imperfect, thus I shall doubt him. If you wish to have him for a guru, so be it. But I shall knock anyone out of the ivory tower they claim to occupy.

Xander

ya know xander, you really don't have to be so anal about the spelling [|)].

and you also don't need to be on your quest to "knock anyone out of the ivory tower they claim to occupy". people (like you and i, as well as mustardseed, exothen, and everyone else here) are all imperfect and make mistakes. but does that mean that we can't do ANYthing right? of course not.

however, if someone claims (or doesn't claim but shows themself to be) very spiritual(ly advanced), who are you or i to say they aren't unless they show themselves to be not spiritually minded? [|)]. remember, not everyone is equal, some are very spiritually advanced eventhough others are not.

i guess what i'm trying to say is "live and let live" [:)].

~kakkarot

Come on Xander, no need to get angry ok. I never claimed to be nobody special. I said in my post, lets discuss it and proceeded to put forward my opinion and what I have gathered and what I am contemplating. I you do not agree thats fine, but explain to me what you do think about the subjects.

These observations are just my opinion and I think they are valid points.

We do not have to agree, right? nor are we in this (AP) to establish a commen belief system or absolve one such. While you are at it , drop the remerks about my spelling please, thats just silly. Do you advocate that only people who spell correctly or spend 4 times as long as you composing a post using spellchecks and copying messages, can debate? And all that talk about knocking me out of ...whatever it was.....Hello, are we having a bad hairday[;)]. Lets be friends for goodness sake and have a sense of humour ok.

Regards Mustardseed

Kerrblur- To try and answer some more of your questions, I don't know about whats "new age" or not, never researched it & it doesn't matter to me. Its good that you ask why God gave man gifts if they're to be condemned. Man condemns the gifts (mostly those who have none, not God.) Remember God didn't write the Bible, man did. And God spoke through MANY prophets and seers, (today called mediums). So reason it out for yourself. Everyone has the gifts, only few have developed them, just like learning to ride a bike. If one never tried, they'd never learn. That's what were doing here with OBE's. Also our species only uses up to 10% of their brain. What's the other 90% for? Holding our faces and hairdo's up?[:D]HeHe. This 90% is the sleeping abilities within us, our piece of God within us. Why did God give us a brain that big? Can you imagine what we could do if 100% was working! Wow! Beautiful[:)]! Again, reason it out for yourself.

As for material to defend yourself with to bring to church, the book "My First Encounter With An Angel" by Sidney Schwartz will certainly cover that. It points out how verses were changed from the original Hebrew text, points out the verses and explains the gifts performed by Daniel, Elijah, Jesus, etc., and gives definitions for all the gifts. Excellent reading. But be prepared - it will knock your socks off! It can be found on Amazon.com, check it out. But you must realize here that your trying to connect spiritual development and the christian religion, when the christian religion has been, for centuries, doing the exact opposite, DISCONNECTING! If everyone learned to develop their gifts, what would they need the church for? They wouldn't need a pastor/priest to talk to God for them, when they can do it themselves? You see? So the church condemns it, not God, who gave the gifts. The church doors would close. Good luck if you wish to argue with them, anything you bring up will be denied. But its always good to learn the truth yourself. My husband and I found that we had to leave our church and move onto a group more "like minded".

When I stated Cor Chapters 12-14 were "hidden", I merely meant that you NEVER hear of these verses in church or church teachings. At least I NEVER had in 8 years of Catholic school with religion as a graded subject, or any of the 20 years going to Catholic/Baptist services. They don't want to bring that up. WHY??? Reason it out for yourself. You only hear the popular stories, Adam & Eve, Noah, Birth of Christ, and OF COURSE his death, which he isn't dead, so why is everyone a sinner? [;)]

As for the "Gifts of the Spirit" not being related to psychic phenomena - again reason it out. Psychic comes from the Greek word psychikos that means soul, or mind. Phenomenon meaning - a fact or event of unique or special significance. In 1 Corinthin 12:8-11, Paul (a medium via Jesus) describes the many different abilities demonstrated by the power of the soul, through the Spirit of God: - "utterance of wisdom" and "utterance of knowledge" are today called clairvoyance, clairaudience, and prophecy, there is also healing, etc.. What else would you call it? And, if the only people who had those gifts were Christians, - Isaiah (not a Christian) prophesies the birth of Christ, how did he do that when Christianity hadn't been developed yet, because Jesus hadn't been born or died yet. And what about all the other guys with gifts in the Old Testament? Are they just chop-liver?[:D]HeHe - Boy this takes toooooooo much energy I'd prefer to spend on developing OBE's and other gifts![:D]
Parting note:
Kerrblur - I recommend reading the book mentioned above - it WILL give you what your searching for. Also, if you want to connect science with spituality there is "The Field" by Lynne McTaggart, excellent! or any books on quantum physics. I could go on and on with this subject, but much prefer to use my energies learning in other forums than debating here. I'm going to hang out in other forums - but before I go, a little food for thought: REASON THIS OUT - Adam & Eve were the only people that God created, they had only two children at that time, Cain & Abel (Gen 4:1-2) and then Cain & Abel "knew" their wifes (Gen 4:17-19). WHO DID CAIN AND ABEL MARRY? Where did those beautiful wifes come from?[:O]  

As for proof of God's existence - Just look out your window! Is the universe big enough proof? God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent! He's not a bearded old man dwelling in some piece of real estate in the sky. God is an Energy Force! - of great magnitude that pulsates through everything, all of us, everything has a piece of God within. God is in the ultra-violet blue of the butterfly, the whispering wind kissing your face, an insect's spectacular wings, a spider's neatly woven web splashed with dew, a fishes shimmering scales, the joy of childrens laughter, and the warm feeling inside of lovers embracing. God is all![:)]

Lots of luck, let me know how you do![:)]

Candieapple -

    Hey there! HeH you just blew my mind up with thanks.  Again, your grateful replies in helping me understand my concern is well thought in my mind! we'll have to meet in the astral plane so I can give you a big hug! [:D] Heh! And thank you for well, basicaLLy defining the words described in: Corinthin 12:8-11

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In Corinthin 12:8-11, Paul (a medium via Jesus) describes the many different abilities demonstrated by the power of the soul, through the Spirit of God: - "utterance of wisdom" and "utterance of knowledge" are today called clairvoyance, clairaudience, and prophecy, there is also healing, etc

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 Great work! Great work indeed, I will definently try to goto a library or something to find these books, I have not any money to buy the books for myself, lol only 20, and going to school Heh [:P]

 Man, okay nothing else to say but great appreciation for your reply! good bye! hope to talk to you again! [:)][8D][:D]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mustardseed

Come on Xander, no need to get angry ok.

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Sorry. I took my school stress out on you. It's just real easy for me to go off on people who claim that their path is the ONLY path.

Xander

Hi Guys
Well I am not thatb well read, however being a believer in the literal interpretation of the Bible I believe that they married their sisters!!! Makes sense to me.

We could disagree on lots but agree on as much , what will we occupy our mind with.

Regards Mustardseed

Hello,

    I'm sorry if I brought any judgemental issues to an area I thought would bring positive questioning and bringing good discussion.  Maybe I was only thinking of myself or I brought up too braud(AP?) of topic.  Anyway with you guys discussing this major topic, it is hopefully bringing answer to many others that I myself have.  [8D]

 For all the 'guests' who are reading this also, I was a guest for awhile and never really joined.  I realized in order to help others and myself, I joined and became a member of this forum, so I urge the obvious numbers of 'guests' reading this to join and lol [:o)] post as many questions and comments like I am doing lol.  

 I just want to bring a window of secrets and common 'science-fiction' conception areas, closer to a area of well practiced religion.  Try to stop all negitive or even non-believing emotions of spiritual gifts closer to christianity.

 Or on the other hand, maybe, with some luck change some peoples view's who believe in spiritual gifts but have negative or
non-believing emotions on what people call 'God.  

 So if I have a open-mind on what you call 'new age', try to not argue with what I'm trying to give to you(any one who argues, not discussing).

Thank You,

Why do you need the proof of God?
The "proof" is always in the mind. It is never anything material. Let me give you an example.

Here of advice of people seeking of proof from Tom in http://www.thefreedomofchoice.com/

Suppose that you find some unusual rock or mineral. Is it a proof? OF WHAT???

Suppose that you find an inhabitable planet called Earth with abundance of lifeforms on which there are a few gigantic pyramids. Is it a proof? Of WHAT???

Some "scientists" will say that it is all a proof of "uncertainty" in the Universe and that everything exists just because it CAN. Others will not notice lifeforms and will choose to believe that pyramids are simply cementary monuments constructed by slaves. Very few people will notice and appreciate that stones from which the Great Pyramid is constructed are quite heavy (20 to 50 tons), that they are fitted to each other in 3D with phenomenal air-tight precision, and there are no rope or other ANY OTHER handling marks on their edges despite the fact that the stone material is very delicate and soft.

From the above it is obvious that concusions and "proofs" are determined and limited by Intellect who makes them. Do you remember a story of a dog?

My view is that, in essence, there is no need to prove anything to anyone, except yourself. Just try to make sense of everything that you become aware of. Examining and/or adopting opinions of other people may be useful or not - it is YOUR CHOICE.

Who will you become in the Universe depends exclusively on what you manage to understand yourself and on what choices you make on the basis of your understanding. [Tom]

candieapple,

quote:

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Remember God didn't write the Bible, man did. And God spoke through MANY prophets and seers, (today called mediums).

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All scripture is God-breathed, that is, God worked through man so that what was written down was what God wanted man to know. Propehts are not the same as mediums today. Mediums are condemned in the Bible since their source of knowledge does not come from God whereas prophets spoke as God commanded them. Huge difference.

quote:

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Also our species only uses up to 10% of their brain. What's the other 90% for? Holding our faces and hairdo's up?HeHe. This 90% is the sleeping abilities within us, our piece of God within us. Why did God give us a brain that big? Can you imagine what we could do if 100% was working! Wow! Beautiful! Again, reason it out for yourself.

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This a very common misconception, we actually do use all of our brains.

quote:

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When I stated Cor Chapters 12-14 were "hidden", I merely meant that you NEVER hear of these verses in church or church teachings. At least I NEVER had in 8 years of Catholic school with religion as a graded subject, or any of the 20 years going to Catholic/Baptist services.

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Well, there's your problem. You went to Baptist and Catholic churches. Charasmatic/Pentecostal churches do believe in these gifts, teach about them, and practice them. I have heard those passages being taught in other denominations as well.

quote:

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In 1 Corinthin 12:8-11, Paul (a medium via Jesus) describes the many different abilities demonstrated by the power of the soul, through the Spirit of God: - "utterance of wisdom" and "utterance of knowledge" are today called clairvoyance, clairaudience, and prophecy, there is also healing, etc.. What else would you call it?

---

Not what you called it, that's for sure. First, Paul was not a medium. Second, there is no "power of the soul, through the Spirit of God," that is a New Age interpretation of scripture. The gifts of the Spirit are exercised by the power of the Spirit. We have no power in and of ourselves and that is one of the main reasons why the New Age is completely incompatible with Christianity. Third, source of those gifts is God, the source of clairvoyance and clairaudience are not of God.

quote:

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And, if the only people who had those gifts were Christians, - Isaiah (not a Christian) prophesies the birth of Christ, how did he do that when Christianity hadn't been developed yet, because Jesus hadn't been born or died yet. And what about all the other guys with gifts in the Old Testament?

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No, they weren't Christians, they were Jews who feared and followed God. Again, the gifts they had were given by God and used by the power of God.

quote:

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God is an Energy Force! - of great magnitude that pulsates through everything, all of us, everything has a piece of God within. God is in the ultra-violet blue of the butterfly, the whispering wind kissing your face, an insect's spectacular wings, a spider's neatly woven web splashed with dew, a fishes shimmering scales, the joy of childrens laughter, and the warm feeling inside of lovers embracing. God is all!

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You need to reason that out. That is an illogical and irrationsl belief to hold.

exothen:  

quote:

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We have no power in and of ourselves

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but if this is true then such things as magic, psi, chi, kundalini, mediumship, conjuring of spirits, etc don't happen, or at the very least WE can't do them since we don't have any power to do so. but reality has shown that idea to be wrong; magic and such do exist, and we humans do perform them, so obviously we do have power in ourselves.

however, if you are talking from a christian standpoint, then i can see how what you are saying is true: as christians when "we" perform miracles it is not by our own power but by the power of God/Holy Spirit.

and if it is this difference between our own power and God's power which makes one thing a sin to perform and the other not a sin (ie, magic is a sin because it is our own power, whereas speaking is tounges is not because it is from God), then think of this: when you take a crap, is it God doing so through you? no, but then since you are doing something apart from God aren't you sinning? no.

we are NOT God, we are seperate from Him eventhough we may be able to form temporary/permanent connections, we are still distinctly seperate. and if we are seperate then that means that we DO do things on our own without the power of God doing it through us, which means that either EVERYTHING we do apart from God is a sin or NOTHING we do apart from God is a sin merely based on the fact that we do is with God's power or not.

it is what we focus our lives on which determines whether we follow God or not: i know people who practice magic and who use it to strengthen and further their relationship with God (heck, some people on these forums do that). as well, there are people who use mediumship to (supposedly) channel angels of God (i don't believe it myself, but me not believing it isn't proof that they are wrong). and what about simon the sorcerer? who wanted to pay the apostles to give him the gifts of the Holy Spirit? paul (or whoever it was) rebuked him not because he practiced magic, but because he thought he could buy the Holy Spirit.


and finally to go back to a point you made way earlier, there is overwhelming evidence to show that the bible is NOT identical to the original, especially accentuated by the fact that there are numerous translations of the bible which DO contradict other translations (and even some translations which blatantly contradict themselves). so which bible is it, then, which is God breathed? none (as you probably would know), since the bible was not written as a unified book, but as a series of books and letters by different people, which the catholic church later grouped together as what is now known as "The Holy Bible".

we lose a lot in the translations of those letters and books, and even if there is one bible out there that is true to the original, there are way to many that aren't, which subtley distort the message and completely destroy the idea that the scripture itself is perfect. the ideas contained within the scriptures are what people should really be searching for: the idea that we should love even our enemies (which is just as strange an idea now as it was in jesus' time), that we should not try to be rich, that we should believe in a God who loved us so much that He sent His son to die as a blood sacrifice for our own atonement. it is the ideas contained in the scriptures that God wants us to understand and do; for a man can know a law easily, but to understand it is something far better.


are we off topic enough kerrblur? [|)]

~kakkarot

exothen,

    Okay, my turn to quote all your saying because I feal I need to state to you; why is it that you demolish everyones posts even when they say there beliefs WITH something to back them up on.  You on the other hand, quote other peoples things and just demolish them like your words are right, WITHOUT anything to back what you say?

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All scripture is God-breathed, that is, God worked through man so that what was written down was what God wanted man to know. Propehts are not the same as mediums today. Mediums are condemned in the Bible since their source of knowledge does not come from God whereas prophets spoke as God commanded them. Huge difference.

Okay brother, your first sentance was exactly what she said but worded differently, so is your first sentance right? No. its the same.
Okay 2nd sentance: Why are prophets different from mediums today?  And tell me EXACTLY where it condemns mediums in the bible, thats right, isnt it in the old testament? I'm sure one of you will answe that one. 3rd sentance: Mediums dont get info from god but prophets do?  Then how are each and every one of us born with A optionable(or rarity being borin with it) training to have such powers? (question 2) then are guides a source from the devil? lol does 'GOD' send angels to watch our everyday life? Hmmm  Not much of a differance, ever read "Talking to Heaven" by James Van Praagh? I've personally met him 5 times. I believe him over you anyday(since he backs his words with knowledge)

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This a very common misconception, we actually do use all of our brains.

HaHaH, okay 1st sentance, only sentance: this one, like all your domolishing comments had absolutely no backing once so ever.  You probably watched some MTV- True/False myth show for that fact you wrote.  Give me factual proof we do not use 10% of our brains, infact we use 90% or more? if that was the case, then wouldnt every single person be super-human and use telepathy instead of phones? or Telekinisis to grab the tooth-brush? HaH Nawww, you have to earn it.
But I might be wrong! [8D]

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Well, there's your problem. You went to Baptist and Catholic churches. Charasmatic/Pentecostal churches do believe in these gifts, teach about them, and practice them. I have heard those passages being taught in other denominations as well.

1st bad grammered sentance: You didnt even read what she said.
2nd Sentance: She went to baptist Chatholic Churches? didn't she already say that?
3rd sentance: Aparently you did not read what she said, let me type it out: When I stated Cor Chapters 12-14 were "hidden", I merely meant that you NEVER hear of these verses in church or church teachings. At least I NEVER had in 8 years of Catholic school with religion as a graded subject, or any of the 20 years going to Catholic/Baptist services.  She said you merely , almost NEVER hear this stuff in her church(as in my christian church) and she goes on saying why if you read it.Therefore her church does not PREACH about it.  
4th Sentance: Okay, now, tell me what ALL passages have you heard and from what EACH denominations, back it up!!  stop demolishing everyones comments like what you say is the RIGHT thing. you quoted: "Sorry. I took my school stress out on you. It's just real easy for me to go off on people who claim that their path is the ONLY path."  you hipicrit. sorry. read my post before yours, I said, "Be open  minded" "Stop argueing", (or in your case demolishing).

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Not what you called it, that's for sure. First, Paul was not a medium. Second, there is no "power of the soul, through the Spirit of God," that is a New Age interpretation of scripture. The gifts of the Spirit are exercised by the power of the Spirit. We have no power in and of ourselves and that is one of the main reasons why the New Age is completely incompatible with Christianity. Third, source of those gifts is God, the source of clairvoyance and clairaudience are not of God.

1st Sentance: If Paul was not a medium, what was he? back something up for once, so far, nothing....
2nd sentance:  No "power of the soul, through the spirit of god"?  okay can anyone else BESIDES exothen state that this is in the bible? because he cannot back his words up, only with arrogance and stupidity, predujice(SP?) remarks.  See I know not much about the bible, but I am definently not preaching what is "RIGHT".  You cant even describe what "New Age' is.  How is "Power of the soul"
New Age? what the F*$& is new age anyway?  apparently you know everything back something up for once, without putting everything in "your own" catagories.  WE have no power in and ourselfve blah blah blah, what exactly does that mean? can you also describe how 'clairvoyance and clairaudience ' are not of god? explain how they are not gifts then? explain what they are then? see you understand what your posting here Mr. lol  your posting a bunch of ignorant BS, and it stays BS, until you add some actual knowledge to it without predujice(SP?).  next paragraph... F*^$ this I'm done, I said in my last post, have a open mind, and dont argue, which means dont DEMOLISH what people say, I'm done with this post arrogant people reply on here because there stupid.  mustardseed and candieapple are prolly the only knowledgable(sorry If I missed anyone) people on here, one person ruins it.  Peace

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It seems that while trying to prove the existence of God, the topic changes into proving the truthfulness of that fact that Bible is God words or book of God.

First of all,
What is God? I confessed I have limited understanding of God but from my extensive observation of the world and the universe around, I find out that tremendous intelligence is required to understand the physical laws governing the universe. If God is the DESIGNER of this universe, then I am 100% sure that God is extremely INTELLIGENT .A untra-extremely small mistake in initial condition of Big Bang will result in an inhabitable universe.

If you don't have strong knowing that God is ultra-intelligent, there is no points of reading further.


If you are 100% sure that God is ultra intelligent, then proceeds,
Since so much care and intelligence are used to design the living universe, then how can you EXPLAIN the obvious mistakes (or I say thousands of them) in the Bible from spelling to illogical conceptions? God isn't an idiot! I only know ultra-intelligent GOD from my extensive observations of the world around me. This can be verified by everyone. In short,what we now call "bible" is a collection of stories written by PEOPLE who had very limited understanding what happened around them. You can verified by yourself.

kakkarot,

quote:

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then think of this: when you take a crap, is it God doing so through you? no, but then since you are doing something apart from God aren't you sinning? no.

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See, now this is just silliness and is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about spiritual and moral matters, not biological functions.

quote:

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and if we are seperate then that means that we DO do things on our own without the power of God doing it through us,

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Of course we do things on our own. But in terms of spiritual "activities," we either do them by the power of God, or the power of Satan. In and of ourselves we have no spiritual power; we draw on an outside source.

quote:

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it is what we focus our lives on which determines whether we follow God or not: i know people who practice magic and who use it to strengthen and further their relationship with God

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They might be getting closer to "a god" but not God, certainly not the Christian God: Rev. 21:8, "8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death"" (also Rev. 22:15).

quote:

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there is overwhelming evidence to show that the bible is NOT identical to the original, especially accentuated by the fact that there are numerous translations of the bible which DO contradict other translations (and even some translations which blatantly contradict themselves). so which bible is it, then, which is God breathed? none (as you probably would know)

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The autographs, the originals, are God-breathed. As for your "overwhelming evidence," I would really like to see that. It is very well established and accepted that the NT is over 99% accurate based on the textual criticism of 5,686 Greek manuscripts and over 19,284 manuscripts in other languages. That's about 25,000 manuscripts of the NT, more than enough to determine how accurate they are. Not to mention the approixmately 86,000 quotes of the NT by early church fathers.

There are some discrepanices between translations, but that is because there are thousands more manuscripts available now then there were hundreds of years ago. But the majority of translations strive to accurately preserve the gospel message and in that, there are no differences.

quote:

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and even if there is one bible out there that is true to the original, there are way to many that aren't, which subtley distort the message and completely destroy the idea that the scripture itself is perfect.

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You would have to prove that there are many translations which distort the message (NWT is an obvious one).

kerrblur,

quote:

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Why are prophets different from mediums today? And tell me EXACTLY where it condemns mediums in the bible, thats right, isnt it in the old testament? I'm sure one of you will answe that one.

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Of course I'll answer it, it would be rude to not do so. You asked, I'll answer. I stated why prophets are different from mediums. And, yes, mediums are condemned in the OT, but that doesn't matter. Surely you don't think that because it is in the OT that it doesn't apply to today???

As I have shown the Bible condemns sorcery (Mic. 5:12 (fortune telling as well);Rev. 21:8; 22:15), witchcraft, and mediums. The point is that from the beginning to the end of the Bible God condemns anyone who seeks spiritual guidance and/or power from a source other than him (the only other source is Satan).

Deuteronomy 18:10-12, "10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. ""

Leviticus 19:31, "31 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.'"

I could go on, but you get the picture. The prophets in the Bible received revelation from God; mediums receive revelation from Satan.

quote:

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then are guides a source from the devil?

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Spirit guides? Yes.

quote:

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I've personally met him 5 times. I believe him over you anyday(since he backs his words with knowledge)

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That's nice. But if you call yourself a Christian, you better be listening to people who back themselves up with scripture.

quote:

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1st bad grammered sentance: You didnt even read what she said.

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Bad grammer??? Shall I go through your bad grammer and spelling? I wouldn't even know where to start. And, yes, I read what she said.

quote:

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2nd Sentance: She went to baptist Chatholic Churches? didn't she already say that?

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Ummm...yeah. Do you understand why I restated that?

quote:

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If Paul was not a medium, what was he? back something up for once, so far, nothing....

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Did you say you are a Christian? Have you ever read your Bible? I do mean this sincerely. Paul was an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 1:1; etc., etc., etc.), which in Greek means "one who is sent." More specifically, he was the apostle to the Gentiles, which means he spread the Gospel beyond Jerusalem and Judea.

You say you want people to have an open mind, but yet your mind doesn't seem very open. I do keep an open mind, but when I compare what I believe is the truth to most of what is posted in these forums, they don't hold up. How do you, or anyone else, expect to know what is true if you don't compare and question what you believe to be true?

Edited because I forgot to answer this:

quote:

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Give me factual proof we do not use 10% of our brains, infact we use 90% or more? if that was the case, then wouldnt every single person be super-human and use telepathy instead of phones? or Telekinisis to grab the tooth-brush? HaH Nawww, you have to earn it.
But I might be wrong!

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Yes, you are wrong. Why do people assume that if we used all of our brains we would be super human and have all these powers? That's absurd, especially since it is a fact that we do use all of our brains. Take a course on introductory Psychology kerrblur.

bomohwkl,

quote:

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Since so much care and intelligence are used to design the living universe, then how can you EXPLAIN the obvious mistakes (or I say thousands of them) in the Bible from spelling to illogical conceptions? God isn't an idiot!

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First, since you claim that there are thousands of obvious mistakes in the Bible, the onus is on you to start proving it. Second, see the post I made to kakkarot above.

Exothen, everyone cares about what you have to say on the subject, but what they don't like is when it is pushed on to them as the truth and only truth.  Somethings you should know though is that, yes there is mistakes and contridictions in the bible, I have never read it so I don't know the passage, but on this site there is already a dicussion about this.  What was said in the passage was when Adam was hiding from God.  God askes why Adam is hiding and where he is hiding.  Now in the bible it also says that God is all knowing and all seeing, so why would he have to ask Adam these things?  I beleive in God, I also belive that the human soul has power and that power was givin by God when he made us.  Satan can not give any power to the soul since he didn't create it.

One thing that I find odd though is that Chritians judge these people without even knowing them, they say that it is bad becuase someone told them it was and he said that God said it was, well how do you know that this man wasn't lying, humans will do anything for power.

Even with people saying that this power is bad, what do most do with it, they help people, they put it to good use and yet they are ridicled and put down.  That is why I lost faith in Christianity, I still belive in God, but not what some of Christianity teaches.

Now I have far greater respect for you now, I apologize.  But you showed good things to me, thank you.  I was just kinda upset how this discussion turned into something different.  I have a open mind, and I'm not well educated in the bible yet.  But did alot of what I'm doing now, asking questions, thats how I came up with a proof of gods existence, but theres something far greater that you, me, and many  others with the exception of a few that might understand, that there IS a connection between this stuff.

 Please believe that what you write back to me, when I trust you described it in full, is printed down in a document book I am keeping.  Trying to understand this stuff from all different angles.  took me a second to understand your angle but I got it now, and its good stuff.  one last question to you though,

Explain in full detail like you did the others, about the guides. . .
guides/angels/higher spirits, are they not the same?  at my church they call them angels, I call them guides, you know, but tell me why there from hell.

 I have 12 credit hours in Psychology, they all tell you the same thing, but does science prove all this ESP, TK, telepathy mumbo-jumbo? lol noooo

anyway, except my apologies, took me a minute to understand your view-point. . .

Thanks,

I have no wish to go into details into the all the mistakes and illogical statements in the bible as I have little interested further studying more.

Would you be interested to examine a rubbish tip just to find out what is there?

However, I will only quote one of them. (source from the book Thiaoouba Prophecy)

'In Chapter 18, verse (1) the scribe refers to our appearance at that time, saying: 'The Lord God appeared unto him among the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to his tent in the heat of day.' The scribe is speaking of Abraham in this chapter.

'(2) He, Abraham, looked up and saw three men standing nearby.

When he saw them he ran to them and fell to the ground before them.

(3) And he said, 'Lord and master, if I have found grace in your eyes, I beg you not to go far from your servant.' Abraham invites the three men to stay. The scribe refers to them as men one minute and yet one of them is also called 'the Lord God'. He speaks to them and each time, it is the one referred to as 'the Lord God' who replies. Now, the priests of the Roman Catholic Church find this in formal contradiction with their views, as do many other religions, for they will tell you that no one can imagine the face of God - that one would be blinded by it. In a sense they are right, since the Creator, being a pure spirit, has no face!

'According to the scribe, Abraham converses with the Lord God as he would with a high ranking lord on Earth. And the Lord God answers him and is accompanied by two other 'men' - the scribe does not speak of 'angels'. Isn't it odd that God comes down to Earth in the form of a man, accompanied, not by angel]s, but by men? Actually, there, and in many other places in the Bible, it is easy for someone of good faith to see that God has never spoken to any human being.

'He could not have done so, since it is astral bodies which aspire towards Him and not God who leans towards them. That would be like a river flowing backwards - you have never seen a river flowing from the sea to the mountaintop, have you? A passage from the Bible, two pages further on from the one just mentioned, is also quite amusing: Chapter 19, verse (1): 'The two angels arrived in Sodom, and Lot was seated at the gates to Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to go and kiss the ground in front of them' - then he manages to get them to go to his house, and suddenly, in verse five, 'They called Lot and said to him: 'Where are the men who entered your house?'. Now the scribe is referring to them as 'men'. Next, in verse (10), 'The men reached out, made Lot come inside and closed the door.' (11) 'And they struck blind everyone at the entrance to the house, from the smallest to the largest person, so that it was useless for them to try to find the door.'

'It is easy to see the lack of precision in this passage, where the scribe begins by speaking of two angels, then speaks of two men, and then describes two men striking people blind. According to the Bible, such a 'miracle' requires at least an angel! There my dear, is another good example of confusion in Earthly scripts. The 'men' were quite simply our men from Thiaoouba.

so what, exothen: we have no souls then? because that's the ONLY way that we would have no spiritual abilities/understandings, is to have the absence of a spiritual body with which to perform spiritual things. our moral conscience is a part of our soul and it one of the more obvious aspects of our souls existance AND USE.

i know MANY people who have TURNED AWAY from God and yet STILL FOLLOW MORAL CODES of conduct. according to you, such things would be impossible apart from God, if we are spiritually dead to God and therefore use our spirits through satan. and don't even try to counter by trying to declare that apart from God a person can know no morality because that's just bull.

and next, ok let's take it away from "taking a crap" and doing something like, for instance, doing a good dead like opening a door for an old lady. according to you, it would be impossible for us to do this unless we are christians because if non-christians are spiritually dead then they can know no good since "only the Father in heaven is good".

your ideas might be good as mere ideas, but they do not fit with reality. and before any theory can be labelled as true it must pass two tests: an internal test and an external test. in an internal test, the theory is tested to see if it holds up to itself, ie does it contradict itself or does it fit perfectly within it's own ideas? the second test is to take the theory and hold it up to what we've seen of reality and see if reality doesn't prove the theory to be wrong, ie i could make a perfect theory about how water is the cause of all gravity and have it hold up within itself but it would fall apart as soon as someone proved that something with absolutely no water in it created a gravitational field. that is how it is with your ideas: they are ideas that are not shown to be true by reality.

as for your arguments about sorcerers knowing false gods rather than the real God, i won't even waste my time on that false logic.

and as for the supposed accuracy of today's translations: then which one is it? or do you believe them all to be accurate? have you even looked at different translations of passages?

~kakkarot

Van-Stolin,

quote:

---

What was said in the passage was when Adam was hiding from God. God askes why Adam is hiding and where he is hiding. Now in the bible it also says that God is all knowing and all seeing, so why would he have to ask Adam these things?

---

There is no contradiction at all. God is asking Adam a rhetorical question to get Adam to own up to his sin. From there, you see the typical human patter - Adam blames Eve, she then blames the serpent.

This example actually fits well with this discussion since the serpent deceived Adam and Eve into believing they would "be like God." Is this not part of New Age philosophy: that we all have some sort of "god-consciousness" and we can develop it to eventually achieve oneness with "God," thus becoming equal with "God?" Believing that lie got us seperated from God in the first place and will continue to do so for those who follow such beliefs.

Also, it was the sin of pride (believing that we can do things our way, apart from God)that got us removed from intimate fellowship with God. That is what I see in here all the time. Wanting spiritual power apart from God, believing that it is in ourselves, and seeking knowledge and wisdom about spiritual matters from a source other than God all comes from a sense of pride and that was dealt with in Eden.

quote:

---

Even with people saying that this power is bad, what do most do with it, they help people, they put it to good use and yet they are ridicled and put down.

---

It's great that people can do good things with this "power," if indeed such power exists. But that is the deception of it all - if it isn't from God, it doesn't matter what you do with it, it is still condemned.

Kerrblur,

quote:

---

Explain in full detail like you did the others, about the guides. . .
guides/angels/higher spirits, are they not the same? at my church they call them angels, I call them guides, you know, but tell me why there from hell.

---

All angels, good and bad, were created at some point by God. The Bible says that a third of them tried to overthrow God, being lead by Lucifer/Satan/the devil, as I am sure you have heard. Now, I believe that all Christians may have angels guarding/guiding them and the Bible calls them "ministering spirits." The word "angel" means "messenger" in the Greek.

However, there is no need to ask for "spirit guides" especially since the Bible says that for Christians, the Holy Spirit will guide them. But to ask for guides apart from being a Christian and praying to God, means that there is only one other source for guides - fallen angels. They may have the appearance (if one can even see them) of looking nice, but the Bible says that even Satan "disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14). The whole point is deception - to make people think that they are getting spiritually closer to God when in fact they are further distancing themselves from God. If something isn't from God, it will not lead you closer to God.

bomohwkl,

For you and others who think there are thousands of errors in the Bible, the highest number I have come across according to scholars is about 40. And these are not necessarily errors, but difficulties, with none of them affecting Christian doctrine.

Such as the one you post. It is not illogical, nor contradictory; difficult...maybe.

quote:

---

Now, the priests of the Roman Catholic Church find this in formal contradiction with their views, as do many other religions, for they will tell you that no one can imagine the face of God - that one would be blinded by it. In a sense they are right, since the Creator, being a pure spirit, has no face!

---

There is no contradiction at all. Christians believe in the Trinity and so it is most likely Christ who appeared. It is God the Father who no one has seen, or can see.

quote:

---

Isn't it odd that God comes down to Earth in the form of a man, accompanied, not by angel]s, but by men?

---

No. If God himself came down in the form of a man, why couldn't the angels also come down in the form of a man? The other two 'men' are identified as angels in 19:1.

quote:

---

It is easy to see the lack of precision in this passage, where the scribe begins by speaking of two angels, then speaks of two men, and then describes two men striking people blind. According to the Bible, such a 'miracle' requires at least an angel! There my dear, is another good example of confusion in Earthly scripts.

---

This is an example of someone who knows nothing of biblical interpretation trying to interpret scripture. There is no problem with referring to the two as 'men' or 'angels' since the context makes it clear that they are angels in the appearance of men.

kakkarot,

You're listening but not hearing. There is something lost in communication here.

quote:

---

our moral conscience is a part of our soul and it one of the more obvious aspects of our souls existance AND USE.

---

I don't disagree with that.

quote:

---

i know MANY people who have TURNED AWAY from God and yet STILL FOLLOW MORAL CODES of conduct. according to you, such things would be impossible apart from God, if we are spiritually dead to God and therefore use our spirits through satan.

---

According to me such things are not impossible. I agree that people can do good things apart from God. You are taking what I said way too far, as you did with your previous example.

My point was that all the spiritual things discussed about in here (I'll term them New Age beliefs for simplicity's sake), such as OBE, astral projection, mediums, channeling, psychic abilities, etc., if they are even real to begin with, draw their power from a source that is not of God.

quote:

---

that is how it is with your ideas: they are ideas that are not shown to be true by reality.

---

You have yet to show how this true. I would also be interested in your views on any New Age spiritual phenomena since they are not shown to be true by reality.

quote:

---

as for your arguments about sorcerers knowing false gods rather than the real God, i won't even waste my time on that false logic.

---

Why is it false? There are two sources of power - the greater is God, the lesser is Satan. Sorcery is not of God.

quote:

---

and as for the supposed accuracy of today's translations: then which one is it? or do you believe them all to be accurate? have you even looked at different translations of passages?

---

The ones considered the most accurate are the NASB, RSV, and ESV. Some include the KJV. But even besides those, there are many other good translations out there and more are still coming out. Of course I have looked at passages in different translations, I own several and plan on getting more.

Yes there are a lot of people who are power hungry and have found that the quickist way to that is not following God, but you didn't see the part about where I said that Satan can not give power to the soul, he can empower the body, but not the soul. The power that we have has come from God and it needs to be unlocked with patience, if anyone tells you that they can do it for you then I wouldn't trust them.  I still follow God and I have asked spirits that I have meet if they belive in God and if Jesus is the savior, they anwser imeditly, yes.  You can ask Mustardseed for some more info on this as he has meet with some that will constantly avoid something like this.

We are not trying to be like God, but we do want to understand him better and we do this with these things.

Do you think God is stupid or clever?
Are you sure of your answer?
How clever is God?

You already admit that there is some errors in the book of God. And you quote that the highest number is 40.
Is it much easier to write a book than designing a living human being? How much intelligence is required to design a living universe than just writing a book?
How can God make such obvious errors in a book yet able to design complex universe?

Aren't those imply that Bible is the book of God directly implies God is an idiot? An insult to God?

If there is 40 errors in a book of God, then how many errors are there in designing life and the whole universe?

Van-Stolin,

quote:

---

but you didn't see the part about where I said that Satan can not give power to the soul, he can empower the body, but not the soul.

---

You would have to clarify this a little more. I am not sure what you mean or what you are getting at. How do you even come to a difference of 'empowering the soul' and 'empowering the body' and that Satan does one and God does the other? How do you know that they both don't empower the body or both the soul?

quote:

---

The power that we have has come from God and it needs to be unlocked with patience, if anyone tells you that they can do it for you then I wouldn't trust them.

---

Power from God is not something that we unlock or use at our leisure. The power of God is for the sole purpose of building up and edifying the church and to advance the gospel. That is the only kind of power God gives and it is him working through Christians.

bomohwkl,

quote:

---

Aren't those imply that Bible is the book of God directly implies God is an idiot? An insult to God?

If there is 40 errors in a book of God, then how many errors are there in designing life and the whole universe?

---

No, no, and none. The original autographs that were written were perfect. But in transmission and translation, there is some stuff that has brought about these difficulties. God is perfect, man isn't.

Besides, about 40 difficulties in a book the size of the Bible is next to nothing, which is why most acknowledge it is over 99% accurate.

there are thousands of sources of power in this universe. to say that it is either from God or from satan is just stupid. satan has at most the power of an archangel: which means he does NOT control very much power compared to how much is really out there, or anything compared to God (but then, what does control power comparable to what God does?)

you say that ALL scriptures are "God-breathed", how do you know?

~kakkarot

kakkarot,

quote:

---

there are thousands of sources of power in this universe. to say that it is either from God or from satan is just stupid

---

And why is that? Because you say so? It is less stupid than saying there are thousands of sources. What thousands of sources might there be?

Maybe we could say that all power ultimately comes from God since he is all-powerful and created all; he gives power as it serves his purposes. Just a thought.

quote:

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you say that ALL scriptures are "God-breathed", how do you know?

---

Because the Bible says so. [:D]

Dear Exothen
I would like to ask you if you yourself practice any of the gifts of the spirit. More specifically, healing, tounges, dreams, visions, and prophecy. Do you know of any church where these gifts are encouraged? If yes where if no why?

I agree with you on most of your statements , however I find it sort of interesting that you seem to have a label for everything and a answer to every question "be always ready to answer any one who ask of the reason of the faith that is within thee" seems to be more relating to testemony of salvation. Are there any questions that your Church or reading the Bible does not answer. I mean along the lines of how it all works and how it all fits together.

You do come off as very self confident, you have the power of the written word but tell me what are your questions, do you have any?

Why are the Churches so spiritually dead and the Christians so divided why is there so little real love there and so much hypocracy, and spiritual pride.

Regards Mustardseed

"The original autographs that were written were perfect. But in transmission and translation, there is some stuff that has brought about these difficulties"

Are you sure that you are reading the ORIGINAL autographs? How many translations and distortion the version of your Bible you are reading? Shouldn't you SEEK the ORIGINAL or the EARLIEST scribe possible?

Your claim of Bible is PREFECT, does it include the truthfulness of the fact that the world is created within SEVEN DAYS and the earth is just less than a million years old. Does it include the fact that the Earth is the center of solar system and the sun and the rest of the planets orbit with respect to the earth rather than the sun?
I am AMAZED if you still have such belief.
God isn't an IDIOT.

Mustard Seed -

    Okay I have to claim that, you are the one and only person so far, as with cadieapple, to catch on to what I am trying to preach!!
Why is the churches SOOO spiritually dead? why are everyones eyes closed with arrogance?  thats my questions, and I have to answer them.  I wont give up

the bible says so, eh! well, if that's all it takes for something to be "God breathed", then this post is now God breathed (because it says so, just like the bible [|)]).

and it says: exothen, no more posting in this thread.

oh, and if all power ultimately comes from God, then the power of satan ultimately comes from God too, and therefore is just as useful to us as any other power, including God's own (no i don't believe this, i'm just following your reasoning).

~kakkarot [|)]

PART I
exothen:
I think it is unfortunate that the Bible condemns mediums, because mediums don't receive information from Satan, they receive it from spirit world. Since you "believe" in Satan, you've learned he exist in that hot, flaming hell-hole, not the plane of bliss of the spiritual realm.

I don't understand why you are condemning mediums, clairaudience and clairvoyance, when I don't think you realize what the definition terms of these things are. If you did, maybe we'd be on the same team.[:D]

Webster dictionary defines the following:
Mediums:  "an individual through whom other persons seek to communicate with the spirits of the dead and who is held by such persons to be a channel of communication between the early world of the living and a nontemporal spiritual realm of the departed."
Oracle: The revelation or response of a medium or priest.

I'll try to sum up pages of research My First Encounter With An Angel, pgs 102-105: To translate oracle from English to Hebrew (consulting The Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament) you would find two Hebrew words (I don't know how to type the symbols on the computer (book has it) we have: debir and dabar (dabar having ^ over the "a"s.) One should be aware that small dots and dashes underneath letters are vowels, which create the difference between the words, changing their meaning. In ancient times, the scribes DID NOT write the vowels in the Biblical text, thereby creating ambiguity as to the exact mean of many passages of the Bible.

The Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament indicates debir (as a noun) means 'the place where oracles were given'. The Theological Wordbook for the Old Testament explains that debir ...refers to the holy of holies and is translated sixteen times in the King James Version (KJV) and ASV as "oracle".

Dabar (with ^over a's) is also a noun that can mean oracle. . The Theological Wordbook for the Old Testament explains as "....is translated eighty-five different ways in KJV!...basically means what God said or says." It is also used 1400 times in the Old Testament, examples:
And Moses told Aaron all the words of (dabar) the Lord.(Exo 4:28)
And God spake all these words (dabar), saying...(Exo 20:1 (The Ten Commandments)
a man had enquired at the oracle (dabar) of God...(2 Sam 16:23)
and see what answer (dabar) I shall return to him...(2 Sam 24:13)
according to the saying (dabar) of Elisha which he spake...(2 Kings 2:22)

The English language has no verb meaning "oracle", yet it exists in Hebrew and yet the Old Testament uses the verb form of oracle dabar (a verb with ^ over only the first "a") 1100 times:
As the Lord had spoke (dabar) unto him...(Gen 12:4). Also (Exo 33:11; 1 Kings 5:5; 2 Kings 1:3;  etc, etc,

The point is this is one of many examples where the psychic connotation of a Hebrew word was lost in the translation to English. English readers are left unaware that every time God spoke, it was to a medium who possessed the gift of clairaudience. So to translate correctly we would have "And the Lord spake unto Moses" would become "And Spirit oracularly spoke to Moses." But using a 21st century understanding of psychic science, this phrase would metamorphose into: "And Spirit clairaudiently spoke to Moses."


I don't care whether you think Paul was a medium or not, even though he was because he "heard" voices from the
Clairaudience:  the act or power of hearing something not present to the ear but regarded as objective reality.

The bible is filled with the gift of clairaudience, some examples of them hearing something not present to the ear....:
"And God spake unto Noah, saying" (Gen 8:15)
"And the Lord spake unto Moses saying" (num 8:1).
"Then the Lord called Samuel, Samuel" (1 Sam 3:4)
"This is the message which the Lord spoke to Jeremiah." (Jer 46:13) etc, etc, etc, etc,
get the point?


Clairvoyance: the ability to see images beyond the range of normal visions.

Abraham saw God (Gen 12:7); Moses saw the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6); and also Amos (1:2), Jeremiah (1:11-14), and Ezekiel (37:1-14) all saw psychic phenomena.

Exothen:  I was also wondering what you were doing on this web-site, since it was created by Robert Bruce who states that he is a energy clairvoyant on page 185, speaking about the "strobe effect".  

You quoted: "the source of clairvoyance and clairaudience are not of God!"

Oh dear![xx(] Do you consider being on this site and hob-nobing with hundreds of people endowed with clairvoyance and clairaudience conversing with people Satan speaks through?[:O] Maybe you should get off before you burn in hell's damnation![:P] By the way – do you possess any gifts? If so, are you sure its not Satan on the other end? RIDICULOUS. It would probably be beneficial to think "open-mindedly", use your common sense and research A LOT deeper, instead of just thinking what the church and the bible tells you too. You do have a mind of your own don't you?

Then you say "we have no power in and of ourselves" – Then go on about some New Age stuff. The heck with the new age. The problem is the church has separated everyone from God. We are NOT separate from God. Reason it out. Did God, the Creator – create us? Yes. Then we contain a part of those ENERGIES of the Creator, how can you be separate from that? Doesn't make sense. To think one is separate from God is a really sad "belief system". When I even say the words I can feel my soul mourn. Can't you? Now say to yourself – God and I are not separate. Doesn't that feel fabulous.[:D] Doesn't your soul just leap with joy! That is proof! What one feels is right. Not what their told to "believe". It has to be a "knowingness". A feeling experience that becomes your truth.

This goes hand to hand with:
My God quote –
God created all, therefore, god is all. Oh! By the way check out:

John 10:34   Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?
See, even Jesus says we have a piece of God Within us! God is all.

John 14:12   Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes in me, the works that I do shall be do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to the Father.

Jesus also acknowledges the gifts of the spirit and says we can do greater works than him.: the gifts of the spirit are: Clairaudience, clairvoyance, healing, materialization, OBE's, direct voice, apports, levitation, automatic writing, remote view, sending and receiving, dowsing, prophecy, dreams, psychometry, trance, etc. All these gifts are given to us and we were created by God, therefore, they are God given gifts. [:)]Smile, God loves you![:)]

Part II to follow.

Thank you for making that clear.  If Jesus said it then we have nothing to fear and I will now leave this topic in your hands.

also don't forget that the hebrews defined witchcraft as dealing with evil entities, and sorcery as using your own magic towards selfish ends. both definitions make it impossible to use witchcraft and sorcery for God. now, using magic in conjunction with God's will means that you are not using it along the above definitions and so are not one of those two things.

and exothen, i hope you understand the fallacy of your logic which i pointed out in my previous post. i was being a jerk about it, but i needed to in order to make that point.

~kakkarot

Candieapple, Van-Stolin, kakkarot, you people are beautiful with words, and educateing me, you have no idea how much i have to thank you, keep this discussion going because I will be making a large essay and when i get more educated with the bible, I will preach on a wednesday(pastor(SP?) picks me to speak for 45 minutes)

ong question for Candieapple- Please show me as many examples and summaries as you can with OBE's and the bible! thats my main concern right now, you have utterly turned my eyes around sideways, I went and got the angel book you told me to get!!!! [:D] [:D] [:D]

But I need something for OBE's and is there ANYTHING relateing to the silver cord, from the physical to the spiritual body? anything relating to that, think about this, a not-well educated boy on religion, in 6 months is going to "edify" the church with spiritual gifts, and the correction that needs to be made, you people are gonna help me, and i will before hand, receive the few at this church that 'do' believe in spiritual gifts, to have them answer when i ask a question instead of getting the common 'cricket' noise lol then tomatoes thrown at me HeH.     thanks!

Candieapple,

That's all I have to say about your post at the moment.

kakkarot,

quote:

---

i hope you understand the fallacy of your logic which i pointed out in my previous post. i was being a jerk about it, but i needed to in order to make that point.

---

I hope you realize that by that smile after I answered your question I was purposely giving you the answer you were fishing for. Maybe I should have used [;)] instead.

Note to all: I have exams starting on Saturday as well as a paper due that I am working on, so I will not be posting much at all until next Tue or Wed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by exothen

kakkarot,

quote:

---

i hope you understand the fallacy of your logic which i pointed out in my previous post. i was being a jerk about it, but i needed to in order to make that point.

---

I hope you realize that by that smile after I answered your question I was purposely giving you the answer you were fishing for. Maybe I should have used [;)] instead.

---

no, i had not realized that. i've spoken with many christians who make such simple logical mistakes with such enthusiasm, so i had merely thought you were making the same mistake. looks like i am the fool however [|)].

as to the thousands of sources of power, it *may* be a bit of an exageration (or it may not), but there are still more than merely two (God and satan). magic, psi, chi, ki, (unless you count chi and ki and psi as the same) kundalini, reiki, etc are all different external sources of power, yet why would it be that only magic (witchcraft) is condemned? well, there is evidence which points to the possibility (fact?) that king james changed certain words in the bible to suit his own desires, and one of those changes was to include witchcraft as an evil/unclean act.

as well, in the early days of the catholic church, the catholics seemed to have no shame in changing whatever they wanted in order to keep the masses in line, so who knows what they've done with the translations since.

and next, (and this one would get me in mega excrement from most christians of any denomination) the bible was not written as the end all and be all of what christians should be and do. the old testament i won't go into since i'm sure most people already believe it doesn't apply to us directly, but even the books and letters of the new testament were written for the purpose of trying to help new christians understand what they were getting into. and with only the pieces that we've found, how to we know there are not MORE letters/books out there which have a more full outlook on christian "duties" and whatnot? well, the quickest answer might be that God has given us all we need to know in the bible, but what about before "the bible" was compiled as a single book (a few hundred years after the death of christ, wasn't it?)? where was the "complete truth" for the christians living then? they didn't have the bible and yet they still kept the faith and kept it well enough that it eventually caught on (catholicism) and thrived as well (though possibly distorted).

it is not the words in the bible which people should be paying attention to (since Jesus who is the Christ is the Word of God according to the first few verses of John), it is the message which the bible contains. too many people get caught up in the mere words and don't understand the message they convey.

many are the times when God told the isrealits something DIRECTLY and within one generation they turned away from His Will. so why should we believe that God has "written" a single book that would be treated any differently?

and finally it is not the bible that people should be striving towards, it is God. the bible contains the message of the Christ and shows us how to know the Christ, for it is through the Christ that we come to know God. the message is also that while we are impure on our own and cannot hope to do enough good deeds to get us into heaven God has already made the blood sacrifice required so that we can be forgiven of our evil so that we would no longer be seperate from God. all we need to do is accept it and strive towards knowing God.

God is not a dead God, He is active in the world today as He has always been (though many denominations would believe otherwise), and He is guiding people to Him just as He always has been. so it is not in the bible that we should place our faith and our hopes, but in the Christ for it is through him that we can know God.

at least, that's my understanding of things [|)]. i could be wrong, but i'm sure that at least a few things i've said up there are correct.

good luck with your exams [|)].

~kakkarot

Part II:   It is extremely difficult to condense years of research and an abundance of information in a short essay, but here it is. If you don't get it – read the books like I did![:)]

Exothen: You spoke of Psychology when you quoted "we use all of our brains".  Well I would like to introduce you to "the magical brain" and a little Quantum Mechanics. This will bridge science and our divinity (like the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed (Matt 13:31)) and will be in reply to exothen's quote: "we have no power in and of ourselves".  Well, not according to Quantum Mechanics and our "god-given brain".[;)]

In order to do this we need to get down to the very "tiny" quanta level. It proves we have a will/intent and an "observer" which together give heed to "consciousness and energy create the nature of reality".

In 1803, Thomas Young used the double-slit experiment. This experiment and the most important implication arising from the study of quantum mechanics is the role that the Observer (you and me) plays in the nature of reality. David Bohm, in his book Wholenss and the Implicate Order (London: Routledge, 1980), 134, concludes that "Rather, the primary emphasis is now on undivided wholeness, in which the observing instrument is not separable from what is observed". Modern quantum physicists are taking seriously the role of the Observer by exploring the relationship and role of consciousness in the material world. See Amit Goswami, The Self-Aware Universe (New York: Tarcher/Putnam, 1995). Even describing the true order of the universe is difficult because it involves something more than the physical world. It involves us, our minds, and our thoughts. When we observe mass, all the electrons stop exactly at the point that we observe them. See Fred Alan Wolf Taking the Quantum Leap, (New York: Harper & Row, 1989). What the observer "thinks" can become his reality.[:D]

Most people are taught to use less than ten percent of their brains. The typical human uses only a part of his neocortex, with very little activity in the midbrain and lower cerebellum. Each neuron in the cerebellum has a thousand times more connections than the neurons in the rest of the brain. That means a scraping of cerebellum, the size of your little fingernail, has more neutron connections than the whole neocortex! Wow! [:O] What's going on down there? And can we make better use of it? Jesus did not limit himself to the use of the neocortex, but instead expanded his mind and used the powers of his God-given lower cerebellum.[8D]

The neocortex (our altered ego/personality) is set up so we can do all the regular things humans do while awake, like talk, have fun, worry, whatever. The neocortex accommodates anyone from a nerd, to a sports hero, to a fabulous genius. No matter the stupidity, fame, or even smarts, a human can grow up, work hard, have some joys and sorrows, then die, all right inside the neocortex.[xx(]

The midbrain allows us to be psychic and to see into the future. It is the only part of the brain that is sensitive as a receiver to infrared radiation (8 hertz). Animals today are very telephathic because their brains are ultrasensitive to infrared radiation.

The cerebellum, along with the brainstem is the oldest part of the brain. Its part of the reptilian brain and is a small three-lobed structure behind the occipital lobe at the posterior part of the brain. It is our subconscious mind, fulfills our intent to walk, move, and make dreams come true, and possibly even live longer than people normally do. Your brain is equipped to do magical things. Instead of being concerned with peer pressure and survival (altered ego – living in the neocortex) you have the option to use your brain to make unlikely dreams come true and to do superhuman things.[:O]

The cerebellum is unique in the fact that it has apprx. one million connections per neuron, where the average neuron of the neocortices, has anywhere from 1,000 to 10,000  connections! Our greatest skills and most developed learned tasks are rooted to the cerebellum. It is the servant that executes, controls, and coordinates the body to follow a thought from the neocortex. Once motivated to act, (like riding a bike) it carries out an activity in an almost automatic fashion. It is as if this part of the brain takes over the body and becomes a simple, natural, "subconscious process." (Analogical Mind) Think of the neocortex as the "thinker" and the cerebellum as the "doer".  When unified, we have a natural "state of being".[:D]

Everything from learning to type and mastering it, to playing the piano and mastering it, to skiing and mastering it, etc, is all possible. By this process, it is equally possible to become a healer and heal without ever having to think about it (Matt 9:22; Luke 7:9, 17:14); to develop our psychic ability (Matt 16:21) and have it become natural and easy; to live in and experience other dimensions on a daily basis (having OBE's (2 Kings 6:12)); to be able to manifest objects (Luke  9:16) and realities intentionally without effort (Luke 5:4-7); and to perform miracles at will (John 2:8, Matt 8:26) as long as we have the knowledge that our thinking neocortex can conceive and model. Then all we need is to give ourselves the permission to practice it (Matt 7:7) until the cerebellum remembers it and unifies it to a "state of being". The cerebellum is our connection to the mind of God because it will consistently endorse all of our focused intentions. It has the fabric within its machinery. With its millions of connections per neuron, the memory already exists within, waiting to be activated. Perhaps we only need to develop the skill of remembering what we do not consciously know but we have subconsciously recorded as the collective memories of our evolution of our species.[:D]

A truly evolving spiritual person is not an individual with intellectual skill and memory of prayer or scripture. A spiritual person also is not a person that performs repetitive rituals without knowledge and awareness. A spiritually enlightened person, such as Jesus, is one who activates the whole brain by using the neocortices to marry philosophical knowledge with the experienced memory of the cerebellum so that thinking begets doing, which ultimately manifests a "state of being" (Mark 9:2-3). When we arrive at this state independent of the feedback from our bodies, our environment, and enslavement of time, we are truly evolved. Then making known what is not known can be a simple as riding a bike – and we will never forget how to do it![;)][8D][:D]

(References – Dr. Joe Dispenza (2002). The Golden Thread, Science and Ancient Wisdom in Pursuit of Knowledge; The Brain, Where Science and Spirit Meet,; Ornstein R. and Thompson R. (1984) The Amazing Brain. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co.

Church building, saying God said so, holy books translated many times over, rituals, are one thing.  

I believe God is quite another:

I see him in the sunrise,
I hear him in a baby's laugh,
I know him through your eyes and mine.

God is in the russle of the wind,
filled with the song of birds and
the buzzing of the insects.

I hear his still voice in the midst of sorrow.
I know his comfort in a kind hand and a smile
mad with compassion and love.

He is in the ocean's roar,
the silence of the night, and
the blooms of morning.

He breathes life into all living things.
He touches life in ways we cannot know.
But we can know life and love.

Because he is within us, made to be
looking out into the world so that
he might see with billions of eyes
that which we look at and know.

I see him everywhere in every minute.
But I especially see him and know him
when I look at you when you let that
light of life flow through you as a
permanent residence who lives with you
and within you, in you and around you.

Jenadots, that was beautiful![:)][^]

Kerrblur, I don't know much about OBEs and the silver cord. That's why I came to this website, to learn. However, I found myself in this forum, not quite sure how that happened? But I will research the silver cord and some OBE stuff and get back to you in a couple of days. My husband did make me aware of an OBE in the bible in Kings referenced in my post above.

I only caught the begininng few sentences of that big 'ol long post, so forgive if i missed something.

But dontchaya all get it. We are all God! Only were pretending were not, we've forgot. We aren't taught things through life, nobody can teach us anything. We already know everything, what we learn is what we remember. At least i think that's what i believe... lol it a philosphy in working :P Bare with me

Hello,

    The only reason I made this post, is to place very intelligent people in the place of kinda speaking these words that spiritualality and christianity do co-exist together, and the people who do not believe in god(like myself at one point in time) I made that very long and complex essay about my idea of the proof that there really is a god, not just "there 'is' something up there higher than all of us, (DUH! thats god).

Kerrblur:

In Robert Bruce's book Astral Dynamics he describes the silver cord in great detail on pgs. 397-403. It was really interesting and packed with information regarding the cord. Do you have the book? If not I can tell you a little of what the book says.

Also, I was wondering what you thought about the information I gave here on the "magical brain"?

quote:

---

Originally posted by exothen

kakkarot,

quote:

---

you say that ALL scriptures are "God-breathed", how do you know?

---

Because the Bible says so. [:D]

---

Neale Donald Walsch wrote Conversations with God: an uncommon dialogue book I, Conversations with God: an uncommon dialogue book II, Conversations with God: an uncommon dialogue book III, The New Revelation: a conversation with God, etc.

All of what is written in those books is God-breathed. How do I know ? Because the books say so [:D].

Ok. That might have been a bad joke.
Sorry.

haha, hey! someone will laugh! [:P]

"Cause really I believe, over the ages, the christian religion has corrupted scriptures and slowly brought people into thinking this kind of stuff is the work of the devil. JUST like how most people today perceive 'easter', people think of easter as eggs and bunnies, but it blinds the real truth behind easter itself, jesus and such...."


kerr i agree with you. while i am religous, i think that the church and other people have changed the meanings of a lot of things
PS. sorry 4 the late response

quote:

---

Originally posted by pyro4571

"Cause really I believe, over the ages, the christian religion has corrupted scriptures and slowly brought people into thinking this kind of stuff is the work of the devil. JUST like how most people today perceive 'easter', people think of easter as eggs and bunnies, but it blinds the real truth behind easter itself, jesus and such...."

---

I feel exactly the same way. People believe in hell,  ivisible demons created from fire trying to ruin our lives, and end of the world because they are influenced by major parts of holy books that
consist of writtings describing, guilt,punishments,battles between good and evil, and apocalypse. All this things bring fear into people.
Nothing attracts people's attention like fear soon they get lost and
consumed by it. They loose their path to peaceful way of leaving.


God's existance can never be proved
or disproved.

I've got a question for the creationists:

Why did God make the universe expand from one point?

why did he give us tounges? why lips? why eyes? why walk upright? why make it so that we need oxygen to live? why ... whatever.

if it were made any other way we'd still be asking "why'd he make it like this?"

~kakkarot

Excellent kakkarot.[^]

Tony,

I take it you're an evolutionist. I'll answer your question with one of my own: How did nothing make the universe expand from a single point? I could ask "why" but nothing has no meaning or purpose, so the question would be meaningless.

Ok, but do you think that God made EVERYTHING with a reason?

Yes.

Ok, then he just made dead planets for a reason that we have yet to fiqure out.  Or maybe he made them, because he knew that we would abuse the Earth and would have to go and live on another planet, though the question remains on why they are still dead.

whether He made everything with a purpose or not is inconsequential.

things just are how they are. if they were any different they'd still be just the way they are, regardless of purpose. and that is true from both a creationist and an evolutionist point of view.

~kakkarot

I feel pretty proud of myself, I created a pretty popular post speaking on how young i was on this forum! people gotta give me props!!
*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP*
December 3rd, 2003 until january 8th, 2004.
And alot of posts in little more than a month!

Imagine if it went two months, or 3! wowsers!

*CLAP...CLAP...CLAP...YAWN*

Jessica

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kerrblur

I feel pretty proud of myself, I created a pretty popular post speaking on how young i was on this forum! people gotta give me props!!
*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP*
December 3rd, 2003 until january 8th, 2004.
And alot of posts in little more than a month!

Imagine if it went two months, or 3! wowsers!

---

I think most people do not so much disagree if god exist, but more on what god wants us to do.

You would be surpised in how many people question God, and how many people even MORE argue over religions and what can and cannot be there.

Read this thread. and gimme input!!

Ryan, I think much of the confusion on some of the posts on this topic have to do with not quite understanding our relationship to the Lord.
The reason we believe in God is easily shown through His creation.  Look at the many colors and patterns in, say, flowers.  You can easily see a designer involved.  Look at the animal kingdom; one example I have used before is the giraffe...being very tall, they should blow out their brains with excessive blood pressure every time they bend over to eat something on the ground....they don't, because of a very complicated valving in their necks, so as to equalize blood pressure.  Is this an accident?  Ha      Evolution?  They wouldn't have survived past the first one; besides, where does this "evolution" guy get his blueprint for the valves?   One has to be a fool to not believe in the existence of God.  Heck, even Satan believes!  

The Bible, plus common sense, teaches that we are all "dead in sin", and that only the Lord can give us spiritual life.  Being dead (spiritually), our pride wants us to expect an obedient God to explain all things to us, so that we may consider serving him.   Ha Ha
We are the creation, not the creator....God doesn't owe us squat.  Then, what's this stuff about heaven, if we are all doomed through our sins?  A very quick summary follows:

Man can't enter a perfect Heaven due to sin.  God wanted to save some of us.  What to do?
Due to subsitutionary atonement, God came to earth through Jesus, and led a perfect life, and then, through a little bartering, exchanged this perfect life for the sinful ones of His people, thereby enabling some of us to end up in Heaven.

Who are the "some of us "?  Well, that's where it gets a little blurry; basically God chose some, in spite of our sin and our not desiring to follow Him, to be His children.  At some point in the life of every child of God, we get a new spirit, the Holy Spirit.  At that moment, our spiritual eyes and ears are open, and we experience this new birth, which often takes the form of a struggle within....a holy spirit in this corrupt flesh?  Quite a struggle at times.
From this point, when we are mere babes, we strive to learn more of Him, and grow.

Don't forget that sinful body which still is in us.....sometimes we actually go backwards (check out David, for ex.).  Once we realize what a gift we have been given, in spite of ourselves, not because we did something to please God, we are changed.  Our desires are not the same; we have different "want to's".  Plus, the ones who blast God think it's all a big fake deal....they just don't get it.

You can seperate all religons into 2 general groups....the first group thinks that, if we do the "right" things, God owes us one, and he winks and smiles and gives us a ticket to Heaven.  Most of the world, including God's people, believe this.  You can see it in every faith from Bhuddism, etc. through about 90% of christanity.  Just different works, but the exact same mentality.  This, of course, does not mean that the individuals are being insincere in any way....they just don't know any better, because they haven't been taught.

The second group realizes we are saved completely by the grace of God, again....in spite of our works, not because of them....  I am not connected in any way with this website, but check out www.pb.org, among others, for deeper insight.

Of course, I don't mean to say that a child of God continues to sin as before; that would be bad fruit, and we are told to be fruit inspectors...."by their fruits ye shall know them"...

Generally speaking, if you run across someone honestly struggling to want to please God, worried if they are "good enough" etc....they are probably already a child of God, for without having their spiritual senses turned on, why would they even care?   Only God can make this one "born again".

Just think for a minute....what can we do to facilitate our natural birth?  Nothing at all.  The new baby cries out AFTER being born, not to get born, but because he already is!
In the same way, you can't do anything to earn your second (spritual) birth, but, once born again, you cry out, seeking God.   That's why the term "born again" is used.  Think about it.

For what it's worth.

Dunno what it is about you that puts me to sleep[8D]

hahahaha MS, onefromsomewhereelse, ill nickname you 'ONE',
Interesting post, I like.  Very long.  But hey You put it into words I'll tell you what!  Good work.  But Noone Makes a post as long as I did, I'll be surprised if anyone even read the whole thing.

But what you said made sense yes.

Sorry; it was a WAY too long post.  I fell asleep myslef just typing it!
Coupled with the 3 second attention span MTV generation types,  it probably won't get read by most.  But, hey, there was no good place to end it....

......But darn it you have a good sense of humour . For the record I did read your post and agree with you on most things......"some of us" would do for a interesting Bible study. Care to try it out?.
Regards Mustardseed

Hello everyone !
I haven't read the whole thing, but i think that what i'm about to say haven't been told yet (at least i hope ;))

Wanting a proof of God's existence has always been the goal of the philosophs, but without any success. Recently (17th cent.), Kant has shown why this wasn't possible.

Wanting a proof of God's existence is wanting a proof of the Absolute right ? But the Absolute is precisely what exists by itself, without any interrelations with the rest. But a proof needs to refere to some experience (if X, then it would show that God exists). But the absolute CANNO'T be the object of any experience, as, what a revelation, it is absolute. How can you prove liberty ? Nothing can ever tell me that you're free. All what i know is that I think I'm free.

This leads us (and Kant hehe - in the "2nd Preface to the Critic of the Pure Reason" - don't know the exact title in english sorry) to make the distinction between to know and to think. We can't know God, as knowledge is precisely the result of an experience. Knowing is therefore giving attributes to an object. But we canno't give attributes to the Absolute, as we can't make any experience with him. Thus we can't have any proof of God's existence.
BUT, we can still think him. Without knowing what we are refering to, we can suppose the existence of him as the Absolute. Thus this last thing enters in the "belief".

Therefore, it brings us to some intersting thing : science canno't tell anything in metaphysics (like with the actual materialism), nor can metaphysics tell anything to science (as with the conflict with Galileo). It has brought us to make a clear distinction between those to things, which appears to be completely different, and not working in a similar way at all. But it also means we can never have any proof of God's existence, EXCEPT, we could think, by our own experience of life. But this can't be shared, and is therefore not a recievable objective "proof" (which is what was wanted i believe).

Hope it wasn't too boring to read ;) I have made drastic simplifications here so it doesn't take 5 pages lol But if you want a more detailled explanation, i send you back to Kant's book, which talks mostly of metaphysics.

See you

Yes, that was a long post. Very important info, but I just had to say it. Now, the author, (or anyone) if you are really convinced that there is no God, I think you won't believe in God even when he strikes you on the head with his lightning bolt(or whatever)?

I got a question, How can people seriously stop and say there is no proof of God's Existence when we have love. The feeling of love. everything I tried stating. And why do I think that the more people that try to deny any existence or proof of god, leads to more war and hatred.  The longer people continue to think this way, the more problems people are going to have living together i think.  Science and the metaphysical side of science are soon going to merge.  thats when all man will cease to fight over ones religion, and accept that there is one God, and trying to put science in front of faith doesnt make you the smarter human being.

There really is no proof of God's existence, but things such as morality, love, and joy can lead one to reasonably conclude that there is a God.

I spent alot of time on my idea of a kind of 'proof' for God existing.  Thats why this thread is called "Proof of God's existence'  I hope you read it, lol yes i know its long but in my eye's it's proof enough that God does exist.

proof of god's existance is now and never.
here and nowhere

possible and impossible,

the before and after.

IMHO One can't prove the existence of God to anyone.You can talk about God till you are blue in the face, and quote all the world's scriptures. God needs to be experienced in our hearts, and language does not have the words to describe the indescribable. A good book to read on the subject is the classic Cosmic Consciousness by Richard Maurice Bucke.[:)]

Personally, I used to simply believe in God, but belief is not knowledge. Now, I KNOW God is real, because I have seen his effects first hand and directly. That is, He has answered prayer of mine, twice, instantly, and unmisseably in a very real physical fashion. However, these were not prayers such as "oh great God please prove your existance to me" - I have a feeling God wont furnish you with such proof if that is all thats on your mind. In my experience, when my prayers were answered it was more of a lesson on other things (I remember both very clearly - though I had to think for a minute on the first one!). And perhaps he was giving me some reassurance that he was there too [:)]

However, these experiences of mine are entirely personal, and I would never use them to prove the existance of God to anyone else. Ultimately, even if I were to tell them to you people, you still wouldn't KNOW in terms of absolute proof, as it would only be second hand info.
Philosophy can give you hints, but it can only take you "so far" - there is very little absolute in philosophy ("I think therefore I am" and that is it!!!) - and anything which is not absolute cannot be considered proof.

It is my opinion that you should go out there and draw conclusions from your own life experience, and only your own life experiences. Because in the end, thats the best and only real proof you can rely on [;)].

Rob

The vast majority of atheists or people who think they are atheists, when asked why they don't believe in God, say that it is because they cannot see Him – yet if the question is put to them whether they believe in love, will say yes, and mean it. We believe in love yet how many of us have seen it? Can it be held in one's hands? Can it be weighed? What colour is it? What shape is it? Can it be smelt? Or heard? "No", to all these questions. So how come that almost every man, woman and child alive believes in love, or atleast knows what we're talking about when we mention the word "love"? Not only that, but few people would wish to contemplate living without love – without loving or being loved by someone. So, if it is possible to believe in unseen love, why is it impossible to believe in God even if we cannot see Him? The
same applies to goodness: we all know what goodness is – we love people who have goodness in them.
The same applies to all the other qualities like courage, generosity, joy, humility, compassion, mercy, kindness, self control, humour, wisdom, patience, etc..... None of these are visible to the physical eye or any other physical sense. Yet we know they exist. We know also that human beings without these qualities would be impossible to live with. We feel them at work within ourselves and see them manifested in other people through their words, actions, facial expressions and speech. We fall in love with someone, and when asked why we love that person we say things like ... he's beautiful, good, kind, courageous, generous, honest ... in short we fall in love with those abstract qualities.

UNTOUCHABLE, UNSEEABLE
The Highest degree of Truth, Beauty, Honesty, Goodness, Courage, Patience, Generosity and so on – would have to belong to a person – superior to all human beings. The Divine Being who not only created all these qualities but whose very substance, whose whole make up is of goodness and mercy, truth and love. Call Him what you will. Most people call Him God – others call Him the Divine Spirit – The Cosmic Force – The Creator – The Almighty – The Omniscient – The Muslims call Him Allah – The Jews call Him Jehovah – The Zoroastrians call Him Ahura Mazda. The Hindus call Him Brahman – and you can call Him
what you will.
There are other things we can't see but have to admit they exist – we can't see air – but without it we would die. We can't see microbes – but they can kill us – and only recently have we been able to see them through a microscope.

EVER SEEN A PERSONALITY?
As for human relationships, no one can say he has seen another person. When you and I come face to face, and relate to each other, the truth is you see my body – but you don't actually see me, the inner entity that lives within my physical body. You hear me talking because I use my vocal chords – so – you hear my voice – you see me smile, see my gestures, catch my facial expressions, but you cannot actually see me, nor can I see you. We see God expressing Himself in Nature – when we look at a sunset or some special scenery we catch our breath and say "Oh – how beautiful". We enjoy the changing of the seasons, and wonder at the structure and growth of flowers and trees and gasp at the miracle of birth, thunder and lightning.. Some people see these things as God expressing Himself throughout Nature, creating, regenerating, and sustaining all living things, and know that though they cannot see Him, He manifests His presence in many ways – the planet He resides in, is alive, just as the body you reside in is alive – because you move it, nourish it and express yourself and communicate with others, through speech, action and expression. But just because you cannot see me, and can only conclude that I must be there, can you say that I don't exist? If you were not in your body, all I would see would be an inanimate corpse. When someone dies, we know they are dead – there's no-one left to respond – or to communicate with. All the physical parts are still there – the brain, lungs and liver, all the other organs and limbs are still there, but the actual conscious entity we call the "soul" – has left, passed over to the other side. So it is possible to see God in and through His Creation, even though our physical eyes are equipped to see only His physical creation. But we can feel Him inwardly, spiritually just as we can feel love inwardly, though with our physical eyes we cannot.
We conclude that there must be an Intelligent Force behind the created world. All the laws of nature, like the law of gravity, the law of change – mathematical laws, laws of musical harmony, etc – could not have been constructed and sustained by an idiot. If you showed me an expensive watch of the latest technology – that not only told the time, but the date, month & year, as well as a calculator thrown in, and an alarm that played a tune – a watch that was waterproof – able to withstand underwater pressure at great depth – and I said to you "this watch must have just come into being on its own – nobody made it – it just somehow put itself together" – would you not protest? Would you not be amazed that any intelligent person could come to such an unbelievable conclusion? You would be right in assuming that I was a complete idiot.

JUST BY CHANCE?
Do you not then find it even more astounding that some scientists and a small group of people spend their time trying to convince others as well as themselves that there is no God? No Creator who made the world and everything in it: that the heavens and the billions and billions upon billions of stars and constellations – all ordered and obeying the laws of gravitation and attraction – just happened to come into being in some kind of beg bang? Scientists are still trying to fathom what caused the big bang. These same scientists are those who take a flower apart, and teach us the names of each section – petals, calyx, stamen, stem, roots, cells, and sap – but when asked to put the flower back together again – find they cannot do so. On their list, they forgot to mention the most important item – the life force that kept the flower together as a living, growing multiplying entity; and yet they would have us believe that the whole, ordered, expanding universe is self made. When you look at a baby – breathing, growing, functioning perfectly, with every organ knowing its function – with its breathing, digestive and circulatory systems in perfect working order – can you really believe that there is no intelligent Creator who created this being? Scientists can name and make a list of every bone, every muscle and vein and cell and organ.
They are good at dissecting and making lists and publishing their findings. But always there is an item missing from their list. How many scientists do you know, after vivisecting an animal to discover its parts and what makes it work, have been able to put that poor little animal together again to make it live? No scientist, as yet, has been able to create even a mosquito. They can muck around with genes and call it "genetic engineering" but no scientist has ever produced a living creature out of thin air.

FROM AN ACORN TO A PLANET
How can one hold an acorn in the palm of one's hand, and know that when it is placed in the ground it will grow into a huge tree producing thousands of new acorns and leaves, without wonder? Yet in the palm of one's hand that acorn contains the blueprint of the whole magnificent tree – roots, trunk, branches, leaves, fruit – following laws of life, birth, growth and eventual decay – with each new acorn producing another fully-functional tree. Each dried bean, lentil or seed, however tiny – a magical, miraculous little box containing life – and a blueprint that will produce thousands more of the same when placed in the soil. Air, sun, water and earth all joining forces to help this little speck grow into a living, useful life-giving plant – which will produce thousands more seeds of its own species. What intelligence – what a miracle taking place right under our very noses. No – the most amazing thing of all is the fact that there are intelligent human beings out there who can't accept that there is a living creative intelligent force behind creation – they can call it God in any language – but will not admit that a creator exists – and more astounding still – they spend all their spare time and energy trying to convince everybody else that God does not exist.

LIFE IS?
Does life exist? Can a scientist convince anyone that life does not exist? They never mention it in their lists, because it cannot be seen, cannot be measured, cannot be weighed – cannot be touched. They don't teach people that Life doesn't exist. Why do they insist that the Creator doesn't exist? Because He can't be seen, touched, measured or weighed? Neither can life. Life – God, love. If life and love cannot be denied neither can God who works and manifests His existence in His creation, the God who is the origin of Life, the origin of Love. What is life? Who made life? Who made love? Who or what makes it possible for you to have life or experience love? Life is inside you, without it you would be dead – life-less. Love is also inside you. How many people can live without loving someone or something – parents, lover, child, wife, husband, sister, brother, friend, cat, dog, or other pet – or oneself. There is love, and like life, without love it would be impossible to live. Do we all go around saying "there is no life – I don't believe in life" or "there is no such thing as love – I don't believe in love"? Of course not – even plants thrive when treated with love – and wilt when love is absent – animals demonstrate unconditional love towards each other and human beings. We all know this – but how many of us can give an answer even if we are asked "what is life – what is love?" Can you tell me – what is life? What is love? You cannot – but you know, you live life, you feel love. The same with God – we cannot talk about Him, but we know Him – we feel Him. If we contain life and love – we contain God. When you feel love, you are feeling God. If God were not in you – you would be dead – He is part of your Life. But we cannot see Him and you want to see Him with your physical eyes. Do you expect to see music? No, you accept that music cannot be seen with physical eyes, but it can be heard and felt. Do you throw a tantrum because you can't smell a rose with your eyes?
No – you accept that perfume is experienced with the nose and the pleasure felt "inside" (like love). So it is with God – we feel Him – inside. He is our intelligence. He is our love, our life, our pleasure, our joy.
Can you define happiness? What is happiness? Can you see it? Buy it? Paint it? Photograph it? Weigh or measure it? God is happiness inside you: you feel it – can't smell it or see it – but feel it. Would you believe anyone who said "Happiness does not exits"? Why should you believe anyone who says "God does not exist"?

SURGICAL IMPRECISION
At a scientific conference at the University of California one atheistic scientist concluded his speech by saying, "and I can honestly say, Ladies and Gentlemen, that in all my years as a surgeon, I have looked into every muscle and every tendon and tissue and cell, but I have never found what you call the soul."
Whereupon another scientist rose in his seat and responded by saying, "Ladies and Gentlemen, in all the years I've spent as a neurosurgeon performing operations on every single part of the human brain, I have never encountered the mind. Does it then follow that the mind does not exist? Neither have I been able to find the imagination, nor the faculty of reasoning. I have never located consciousness or intuition. Does that mean that they do not exits either?" and he sat down. No-one refuted his contribution. He had made his point. We could of course add to his conclusions by pointing out that hypnotists and psychologists work exclusively with their patients' minds – healing some extremely severe cases of depression, schizophrenia and other mental disorders.

LOVERS
We could also consider the powerful effects of auto-suggestion where one can see the power of mind over matter – easily demonstrated by what happens when we visualise a lemon being squeezed – we automatically start salivating. Or if we hear a sudden noise at night and imagine an unseen danger approaching: the immediate effect this has on our physical body is that the heart accelerates its beat – we perspire – our breathing becomes short and quick – the blood drains from our face and we turn pale – our muscles tremble, the facial muscles twitch – we lose our voice. In extreme cases we could throw up or lose consciousness. But would the neurosurgeon be capable of finding the cause of all these symptoms? The fear we felt in the first place? Of course not. Neither can any surgeon find our soul – our real self, our spirit – living within the body. It is our soul that preys. It is the soul within each human body that expresses a deep desire for love and beauty and excellence. We are so critical of things, of people, of places and events and actions and works of art or music – because we are always anxious to encounter excellence. It is the soul that is thirsty for goodness and happiness, for kindness and all the qualities of the highest possible degree – in other words for God. The soul is restless until she encounters God. We fall in love with someone who expresses beautiful qualities – but when we meet someone else who possesses them to an even higher degree, we leave the first lover and turn to the second. Constantly restless – constantly seeking better and higher and more excellent qualities in a person. When we don't find what we're looking for we are dissatisfied and look elsewhere. The only person who possesses excellence to a super-human degree is God – all the qualities emanate from Him and permeate everything He made. But in this game of hide and seek, the soul looks for Him in people – in music, art or beautiful scenery. Only when she realises who her real eternal, unchanging, ever faithful, loyal loving lover really is, will she find lasting peace and joy. If we look at a beautiful landscape, we feel a deep sense of peace and pleasure, but as soon as we leave the place those feelings go. If, while looking upon that beautiful scene, we are aware that the beauty we see is the Beauty of the Creator who instilled that beauty into the scene, that the peace we feel is because we are aware of the actual presence of the Creator in that beauty and harmony, then we realize that it is a living Being that is touching our inner being and communicating with us, albeit without words – more like the communication of love and adoration that lovers can exchange without words – just by looking into each others' eyes, just by being in each others' presence. We are all united and connected by an invisible spiritual thread through which we can transmit Love, thoughts, feelings and positive healing energy. When we can experience this by looking at the world in this way, then we don't lose the peace and joy we have found, because we carry it within ourselves. All the time we remember that the source of all this beauty and love and wonder is right inside us – it never leaves us. It is a state of mind, a higher state of consciousness which can transform our whole life. Once we discover that the wonderful qualities that make us fall in love with someone, or want to befriend anyone, are right there inside our own self, indeed make up what we are, then we become able to look inwards and commune with our own heart.

WHOLE
Literature, religion, art, poetry, philosophy and psychology tell us over and over throughout our lives that, in order to be happy and fulfilled in life, we must become integrated, that is to say become whole again, piecing together the two parts of ourselves that have come unstuck as it were, so that we live in a schizophrenic state. Each study uses a different group of terminology to describe the process of putting the pieces together – but they are in fact describing the same thing. If we had a group of speakers addressing a multinational audience about the pursuit of happiness in French, English, Hebrew, Japanese, Chinese, German, Spanish and Arabic, each nationality would understand the speaker that used their own language. Each speaker, to an onlooker, would be making a different set of sounds and noises, but he or she would be talking about the same subject, namely "The pursuit of happiness". So it is with psychology, philosophy and religion. In psychology the two parts of the self are called the conscious mind and the subconscious mind. The two must come together in order to experience the
Superconscious state. Religion calls then God and the Soul – philosophy talks of Spirit and matter. The mystics talk of the Higher Self and the lower self or ego. Heart and mind. Mind looks outwardly into the material, non lasting unreal world; Heart deals with love and joy and peace – the lasting, spiritual, real world. They all tell us that in order to experience the heaven which lies inside each of us, we must unite the two aspects of ourself and become one with the Higher Self. Just as lovers suffer atrociously when they are separated by circumstances or disagreement, and only begin to live joyfully again when they are re-united, so the soul lives without joy or peace until she is once more united to her beloved – the God who lives right inside her – but because her attention has wandered out into the material world and got fixed there, she forgot the way back to her beloved. Like a bee trapped behind the window pane which keeps trying to get back to the rose, but cannot do so until it finds an opening to fly through – so the soul is for ever trying to get back to God. Man keeps falling in love with a woman – but it cannot last; woman keeps falling in love with a man – but that love can never last. Man keeps falling in love with man but that does not last either nor a woman falling in love with another woman. The only love that lasts is union of the soul with the real love in the very heart of oneself. When union takes place – the inner union and reconciliation between God and the soul – then only can you feel deep, lasting joy and peace of mind.
Then the outer and inner become one. When that happens, the world becomes a beautiful place, and we are able to love everyone, and the whole of life takes on a new meaning. All we need to do is to shift the focus of our awareness from the busy, frightening, frustrating nightmarish outer world to the Loving God waiting within for our return. We can communicate with Him and consult Him about problems in daily life, and share with Him all the joys and delights we experience. That's all it takes – a shift in consciousness.
Be aware of God's existence inside you. He is the love, joy, peace, patience, intelligence that you feel in your daily life. Communicate with Him, love Him – He is there waiting – waiting, waiting – for a word from you, for a glance from you, for you are His loved one! He is what you keep looking for in human beings and pleasurable experiences. When you walk through life with God – your heaven has already begun on earth. Try it and see!

PRAYER
People who have the habit of praying – talking to God as though He were their ever constant companion – find comfort, help, protection from danger and the solution to their most difficult problems. Millions of people testify to the efficiency of prayer, millions of people can't all be wrong – Prayer works for them and it can work for anyone with faith who is willing to give it a try. Almost six billion people cannot all be wrong!
Those who spend a lot of effort trying to unite their soul to God – to enter into loving communion with Him – are referred to as mystics.
Many young people who have been lured into taking drugs have had mystic experiences and will tell you of feelings of being in heaven and of feelings of union with God – of seeing lights and colours and beautiful scenery filled with marvellous flora and fauna – and walking and talking with heavenly beings.
But they come back to earth with a bump and then do everything they can – spend all they've got – to procure drugs so that they can repeat the experience.
Getting into the higher states of consciousness by taking drugs is like getting in through the back door – the way in is through loving God, keeping His commandments and communicating with Him through prayer. Drugs only destroy a person's brain cells which can lead to insanity, depression – ill health and death. It has however given many young people a taste of liberation from normal states of earth-bound, materialistic consciousness, and an experience of what the state of ecstatic communion with the Higher Self is like, and given them proof that the kingdom of heaven really is within ourselves. Many of them have sensibly come off drugs – and chosen the safer surer path of loving prayer.
The human mind is a great mystery – and there are a great many aspects and functions of it that we cannot understand yet. Psychology as a science has only just begun to scratch the surface in its study of
the human mind. We cannot understand or explain phenomena such as how psycho kinesis, telepathy,
prophecy, clairvoyance, Imagination, Intuition or dreams work, or the power of mind over matter.
We observe that there is activity inside each one of us which mends our bones when they are broken,heals our wounds and burns and bruises, forces us to breathe in and out, digests our food, makes our heart beat, our blood circulate and all our organs and glands keep functioning, creates a new baby in the mother's womb – causes it to grow and pushes it out to be born into the world at the appointed time. We cannot see this force but we can feel it working inside us. Some call it God!
Now, people who have achieved Self integration, or Self realization or God realization, are the ones who have succeeded through constant sincere loving prayer and communication with God, without having recourse to taking drugs, have sometimes written books about their experiences in order to help others – to make it easier for them on their chosen spiritual paths. The mystic and transcendental poets – the prophets of all ages: they are the lucky ones who, once having reached the ecstatic state of Super consciousness, have tried to share their discoveries with us – and brought new messages of hope and instruction to encourage us to take the road back to God. Some people scoff and reject what they have to say – others take heed of their words and start a new life in the Spirit. It isn't difficult to guess which of the two groups find love joy and peace as a result.
Now that you have read my article I suggest that you close your eyes and let what you have read sink in – then read it again. You might find that with each reading some other point may have an impact, which you had not noticed previously.
This information has just been a short outline to help you eliminate any doubts and obscurities about the existence of God. I hope it will help you find peace – and joy – as you realize his presence in your own self as in the world surrounding you.
May God be with you.
May He calm your troubled mind and bring you Peace of Mind.
May He fill your heart with peace and love.
May you find never ending joy.
Place your hand in His.
Place life's burdens at His feet.
Let Him work in your Life.
Rest in His will.
You need not struggle.
Remember Him. Praise Him. Thank Him. Love Him. He will bless and protect you – Run to Him and He will run to meet you.
From then on your whole life and all your relationships will take on a new and wonderful meaning. But see to it that once you acknowledge Him and open your heart – that you remain constantly faithful, and He will be faithful to you in the same measure as you are faithful to Him.
N.B. When you have a clear picture in your mind – and you feel you want to know more about God – you could start reading the Bible, the Old Testament, The New testament, The Koran, or The Kabala; or you could study the Scriptures of whichever religion you already belong to, in order to deepen your knowledge and understanding!

DEFINITION OF GOD
To many an article of this sort will be quite acceptable, but others, who are a little more widely read, might want to look more closely at the assumptions behind the text.
To paraphrase the first paragraph, it says that abstract properties exist within responsive physical systems - people, such states are not directly observable, outside our internal experience, and affect us.
They may be inferred to cause or influence behaviour of others, in the same way that they do for the self.
They can be tested when it is possible to interact with the individual who possesses them. We are then asked to consider the possibility that such states exist in nature, beyond the individual, that things seem to be governed by them. No precise suggestion is yet made as to how these non-physical states of 'God' will affect the natural world or our inner world.
Most intelligent people would not expect that there always has to be a concrete representations of every abstract thing. This is not to say that it is impossible to create illustrative examples of most abstract concepts.
To remove this confusion then, perhaps we should start with a definition of God that makes this clear.
An abstract non-material information processing system or 'superconscious' capable of interacting with our minds and physical reality, a collective consciousness, a system capable of representing and using the Platonic perfect Forms such as perfect love, joy, peace, patience, intelligence etc.
If we accept that abstract properties such as courage, generosity, etc can exist without being seen or sensed we are left with two obvious questions. Where are these concepts represented in a given case and what is their range of influence? Some would hold that there are many separate representations in our individual brains, that they are caused by influences transmitted through the sensory modes and they range as far as those who know of the original outward manifestation, and believe that it represent the truth of what is seen. From this viewpoint the individual experiences in different brains are distinct and only united if there is ongoing feedback between the individuals. This is similar to the communication between the different parts of the brain that binds them together into one individual.
Others will believe that these abstract properties have a greater significance. That the beauty in nature has a reality that is perhaps more than the sum of the atoms and photons of which the system is composed. The presence of an observer is not necessary. In this view, the unobserved or chaotic elements of the system are constrained by its abstract properties. These higher states, if they have such power, may be able to interact directly with other such states, possibly those similar ones in the minds of people, but they affect the physical system. There may, under certain conditions, be more than the one way interaction which informs us of what we see.
The second paragraph asserts that the Platonic perfect Forms have significance in this abstract world.
The next paragraph gives some examples of things that were once regarded as abstract but are now seen to be physical. This seems to be an ongoing process in physics today, abstract mathematical concepts are seen as reality.
The fourth paragraph elaborates on the interaction between the abstract and the physical world. It emphasises the importance of interaction when modelling abstract ideas. It asserts that some believe that abstract forms guide the real world. According to this belief system, there are interactions between the abstract states associated with each natural object, these are analogous to the nerves in the body. It proposes that natural processes are influenced by these invisible processes to such an extent that life on the Earth would cease if they were no longer active. This picture of all life as a body, or Gaia, then paradoxically seems to become a metaphor because he says that this has to be felt inwardly rather than seen with our eyes.
The next paragraph is rather weakly argued. Psychokinesis is, perhaps, evidence for an intelligent force; see later. It is open to question whether the physical and mathematical laws were created or are sustained. Most of us would agree that 2+2=4 has not been constructed because there was no choice in the result, similarly there is no maintenance necessary. The same may apply to the laws of nature. A more interesting case where there may be more flexibility is with the actual values of the physical constants. It might be a little unwise to draw conclusions about God from speculations of this type. It does not take any account of recent understanding and inquiry into the process of evolution. Lastly it proposes an argument that by extension denies the possible existence of God.
Paragraph six. Here we are presented with the existence of a group of people who use close-minded thought and ideas that have been internalised without criticism. This seems to be an attribute shared by most, if not all, humans so is, perhaps, not really very surprising.
We see the argument that sheer large numbers must be evidence. To put this in perspective, consider the infinitely greater number of positive integers!
The next argument is that humans are not technically proficient in some areas and that this lack of control argues for the idea of God. It is true that a religious explanation is more common in societies that have little control over their environment.
The idea of a life force is interesting; it has been used throughout Chinese medicine. There is some evidence that these energy pathways in the body may be responsible for anomalously high transport rates. There are also some well-authenticated accounts of spiritualist mediums being able to temporarily reshape some of the matter from their body.

EVOLUTION
Evolutionary methods may be a more efficient way to produce complex systems than thought out designs. Any design will depend on in-depth understanding of molecular environments and interactions. It is possible that it will prove to be difficult to represent and process all the information necessary to design a new form of life. In this case, some testing would be needed and the method could then be classified as evolutionary, at least in part. It is interesting that an argument for creation without the use of evolutionary methods is being made.
There is evidence that psychic phenomena can cause rapid growth and genetic changes to plant tissue.
As we do not yet have any idea as to the mechanisms involved, it is difficult to assign them to the design or evolutionary categorisation. If some form of quantum superposition of states were involved, would this be evolution or design?
Again in the next section we see the argument presented that complexity implies God. It is a misunderstanding to believe that evolution implies that God does not exist. Perhaps different people have various reactions to the idea that they are being 'loved' by an intelligent system – or that the world is an emotionally cold place. It is common for people to want to control others before they understand themselves, reason is often treated as an afterthought.
It is possible to interact with and measure living things much more easily than the processes connecting abstract states to the physical world i.e. 'the expression of God'. Perhaps some of the criticisms are based on flaws in the arguments for God. It has to be said, however, that many people would not be interested in fine argumentation. Parapsychology seems to be concerned with phenomena that could be
of relevance to the discussion. The idea of extra sensory perception raises problems over evidence for survival beyond death. On the other hand, some method has to be proposed for conveying relevant information to the recipient, when positive results do occur. This, and other phenomena involving biological changes in living systems, and perhaps also the rare cases of transmutation through psychokinesis, do suggest that the more abstract information associated with thinking plays some role in the
physical world. The author's frustration with presenting arguments becomes apparent, more examples and analogies are used.
The next paragraph outlines some of the ideas often presented in the Eastern religions. Prayer is a practical application of the theory that there is a direct link between thought and matter that bypasses the nervous system.



To summarise, a lot has been discovered recently about evolution and complexity. It is now known that simple non-linear systems are capable of great complexity. Complexity or large numbers do not necessarily imply intelligent design. Both can arise from the application of simple rules. Technologists now use evolutionary methods as part of product development, so that it is not necessary to design everything from the top down. It is easy to see these processes at work creating highly specialised results, both in the lab and in nature. Accordingly, many would think it a great mistake to argue that the existence of complexity implies that there has been a process of intelligent design at work. We now understand that selective breeding can produce highly specialised systems in a variety of contexts. In fact, the use of this argument would imply that God would have had to be designed or could never have arisen. Evolution is not somehow anti God. There is a more subtle point. All of the processes with which we are familiar exist within spacetime. It may be that our concept of time and causality is too limited and that other theories will be developed which may invalidate an attempt to extrapolate from the type of
systems with which we are familiar.