The plot thichens

[Mustardseed]

This story made it to the National news here, and has sparked TV debates etc. The Mysterious shroud

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050119/phw016_1.html

[Gandalf]

hhmm interesting... it is just possible that the shroud IS actually the shroud of the historical jesus, although its a long shot to imagine the same relic would survive until today, but not impossible.

Another possiblity, even if it DOES date from around that period: it might just be a relic from around that period but not nececerelly the original.. the relic business was already up and running very early on.. for example, Emperor Constantine's wife Helena is said to have found the 'true cross' if we remember, this being the 4th century ad.. and sounds a bit suspect!

When we remember the relic business went from strength to strength reaching its height in the Middle-ages, I think all these things should be viewed with some suspicion, but you never know.. its worth re-testing.. I guess the most we can expect is that it may just date to around that period, but as to whether it is an original or cunningly reproduced relic we will never know, since those in the relic business would go to any lengths to make their relics, including using real blood, bones etc.. so the fact that the blood is real and might even date to that period proves nothing in itself, but I imagine this will be enough for most believers.

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Right, I also thought it was interesting, in spite of the obvious un answered questions. I guess we will never know and by definition believers will believe ....shroud or not.
Regards Mustardseed

[no_leaf_clover]

This story made it to the National news here, and has sparked TV debates etc. The Mysterious shroud

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050119/phw016_1.html

lol

What you left out is that they did a study along with that on an authentic, original piece of cloth, and it was also way off the mark by a good thousand years easily.

http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1289491.htm

"A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old," Rogers writes.

Even their determined earliest possible date is off by a good 300 years. At most, off by 2000 years. Could have been made way before Jesus's time, then used on his body, I guess you could say though. Maybe they should find some way to test the date of the blood and not the cloth.

[Mustardseed]

What I left out..............? what are you talking about my friend, I included a link and there is nothing to leave out. There was no argument debate statement or any such thing, just a piece of information for you. Is that leaving things out?

[no_leaf_clover]

What I left out..............? what are you talking about my friend, I included a link and there is nothing to leave out. There was no argument debate statement or any such thing, just a piece of information for you. Is that leaving things out?

No, but there was further testing done that showing the age of the authentic cloth was also maybe off a bit from what it should be. I still think they should find some way to test the blood.

[Mustardseed]

Dear No leaf clover

It seems evident to me that the shroud is represents an attack on your belief system, sorry about that my friend. I understand that better than you think, but try to read the posts again, all I was doing was posting new info on a very interesting artifact, thats all, no conclusion no hidden agenda no insinuations. Let me ask to make sure, are you indicating I am trying to hide information and that I am using this new article to bolster Christianity, if so I apologize, I never had any such thought or intent.

No matter what we think about Jesus and Christianity, the shroud is still a interesting artifact, and its history, and the controversy surrounding it fascinating, wouldn't you agree?

Regards Mustardseed

[Potential]

If I were to rap myself in the Shroud of Turin, would it enhance my OBEs?

[no_leaf_clover]

It seems evident to me that the shroud is represents an attack on your belief system, sorry about that my friend.

No need to apologize. I don't really even have a belief system, as far as I know, and I certainly did not feel threatened by your post. What a nice thought, that some people have alternative beliefs that they find as rational and empowering as Christians do their own.

I understand that better than you think, but try to read the posts again, all I was doing was posting new info on a very interesting artifact, thats all, no conclusion no hidden agenda no insinuations. Let me ask to make sure, are you indicating I am trying to hide information and that I am using this new article to bolster Christianity, if so I apologize, I never had any such thought or intent.

This was a misunderstanding that stemmed from me reading an article about it before you created this post, and the article I read included more information, specifically that the authentic cloth on the shroud dated back 1300 to 3000 years ago. I apparently mistakenly assumed that your news source was being somewhat biased by excluding the second piece of info, and somehow my realization of bias was expanded to include your post. My mistake; you simply didn't read the same article I did.

No matter what we think about Jesus and Christianity, the shroud is still a interesting artifact, and its history, and the controversy surrounding it fascinating, wouldn't you agree?

Yes; I agree. I'm not absolutely sure that it's fake.

[Mustardseed]

Well I am glad that we are not ad odds. I somehow far away in past remember that we somewhat unfriendly with each other , and don't want to repeat that. About the shroud i have no clue no facts to base any belief on so I guess that makes me .....undecided. Nice to hear from you in any case. All the best

Regards Mustardseed

[Tayesin]

Hi,
Don't have any links etc, to support these next claims...  so here goes anyway, LOL

I watched a few documentaries on the shroud over the years, and the last one claimed it was a reproduction made in the Dark Ages.  The image is painted using an old technique we no longer used, and the remnants of that paint's make-up apparently showed it to be from those D/Ages.

So who knows.  Certainly not the established Religionists, LOL  

Oops, hope I don't get Lightning-bolted from God for that.  

[Mustardseed]

Dear Tay
It is all very interesting, I would however avoid the sarcasm,    never gets much positive response. What you propose is actually in its simplicity what is termed.....hearsay. Movies be they Discovery or not are not reliable sources in scientific communities. Just a possibility, but in no way either scientific nor fair to the believer. I am not saying that it could not be so but to use it in any was as an arguments seem a long shot. Anyone who starts a argument with " I read in the paper" or "I saw on Discovery......." raises the small hairs on my neck . I am sure there are plenty of discovery programs that totally would deny your own experiences, and the validity of OBEs etc so.....

Regards Mustardseed

[Tayesin]

Hi Mustard,
Sorry if I appeared sarcastic or idly-media-indoctrinated.  Neither were my intentions, as I respect you and much of what you have shared at A/P.

I just wanted to point out that this documentary, on free to air, was based on the recent examinations made in the 90's, and so seemed valid considering the examiners were also given time to speak their thoughts during and after the televised study.

My flippant remarks of Lighting bolts is only my personal weird humor.  And it is pretty weird I can guarantee that.  I do not think god considers me so important as to wipe me off the planet with a Lighting Bolt, in all seriousness.

Thanks for the timely reminder also, about being more sensitive to other people's beliefs and thoughts.  Sometimes I just crash through and upset some people with my words, even if it wasn't intentional.

Another learning curve approaches.

Thanks Mustard.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Tay no need to thank me my friend, and I know you don't mean it in a bad way, I guess we just never knows who is listening do we. Interesting points you are bringing up, are you important enough to wipe off the planed by a lightening bolt or not , I think I would agree with you !

About the shroud, it is just all so interesting. I often wonder if we try to separate things too much. Often people who are believers in OBEs etc the spiritual realities, are very selective. They would like to use exact science to disprove anything not compatible with their belief system yet reject this same science when it questions it.

I wonder if all the faith people put into the shroud is energy and somehow empowers these relics that cry heal bleed etc. Maybe somehow it opens a crack in the veil and acts as a transmitter for a higher power. It would seem futile to deny these relics exist and has some sort of spirituality but how they get it is another thing.

Thanks for your always kind comments

Regards Mustardseed

[Tayesin]

I often wonder if we try to separate things too much.

Yes we do.  It's no wonder we don't have all the facts on anything when it is secreted away in a million little pidgeon holes.

Often people who are believers in OBEs etc the spiritual realities, are very selective. They would like to use exact science to disprove anything not compatible with their belief system yet reject this same science when it questions it.

True Mustard, very true.  Wouldn't it be fantastic when science catches up enough to observe or quantify the spiritual aspects of things ?

I wonder if all the faith people put into the shroud is energy and somehow empowers these relics that cry heal bleed etc. Maybe somehow it opens a crack in the veil and acts as a transmitter for a higher power. It would seem futile to deny these relics exist and has some sort of spirituality but how they get it is another thing.

An interesting observation there...  and one I can't argue... as I don't know what causes the genuine cases of relics.  Such as the one in a town not far from me last year.  Very interesting, maybe one day we will understand what makes such things happen, and hopefully we will all be better off for it.